It's finally happened. I am officially sick of the "previously on" segments with a whole bunch of stupid crap that has nothing to do with the upcoming episode.
And yet Byrne denies there is anything wrong with the story, implying readers are gutter minded for getting what he more than implied happened.
Byrne must really hate Barda, implying that she has weak morals and is not as resistant to hypnotherapy as Scott (on top of the other indignities.) What a jackass.
This was a really good review. Your points on sexual assault in fiction as well as the points on the site you quoted make very valid points. Although I liked Identity Crisis, I found Sue Dibny's rape at the hands of Doctor Light to be both over the top and unnecesary. Not only that, before Dr. Light got "lit up" by the Spectre, his depictions were that he was pretty much the Glen Quagmire of the super-villain community.
I'm interested though how you felt the story as a whole was crap. I imagine it's because of the complete and total Face-Heel Turn of Jean Loring, since it was never established she was guano crazy.
What, they're a creepy film producer named Grossman, and you don't use any footage of Tom Cruise as the creepy film producer named Grossman in "Tropic Thunder"?
I suppose it would be hard to find footage of him using any clean language, but it seems like another one of those "missed opportunities.
I'll be sure and check out the link to Girl Wonder, sounds like it has some good storytelling analysis.
Do we ever get an answer to why Superman did not let Big Barda kill Sleze. Did he just want to prevent the 120-year-olds from dieing? Did he just want to prevent the use of lethal force? Why did he protect the guy that would mind force him into making porn?
Wow, I didn't know this comic existed, and frankly, it's downright offensive. The last thing I wanna see when I read a comic is my super heroes getting raped. Overall great review.
Great review as always Linkara. Wonderful cameos and plot for the 'previously on'. Was really surprised to see a completed Tom Servo sitting around would love to know the story behind you actually having one of those sitting around.
Anyway controversially I'm going to have to sadly disagree with you on the use of rape in a story. Yes, in his example it was in bad taste and barely focused on. However, in a properly constructed story of whatever type with it as a focus or extremely important plot point it can be immensely powerful and scarring for characters to deal with as it should be. Yes, the act is reprehensible and evil but having characters work around that while reading something from a very competent author/writer/illustrator can be very interesting indeed. So much so that I think you make a mistake immediately discounting it.
GAHHH, time to increase the budjet on that Industrial strength mind bleach research. That was awful, an epic insult to Jack Kerby's creation of the new gods. In the hands of a talented writer they would have Barda almost smile, stomp Sleaze into a mud puddle and head home. Looking back on it I have to ask why was Barda in the Slums in the first place? That's just the start of the rampant plot holes. You tackeld a handful of them here but even from the highlights I could see lots more. I was even screaming at the screen "Where the hell did you get an arc welder?", "A porno, A PORNO. WHO THE FLYING..." and much more importantly "Did this person know anything about Barda?" If it wasn't for that previously on segment the whole episode would have been so uncomfortable I'd need a shower after it. I still think I do. Once again I have to ask what was the Editor doing, a lot of these DC and marvel Cock ups seem to come about when A:- an editor is trying to be a writer without the experience or skill or B:-out having a power lunch while incompetents slip in behind their back.
Thomas
PS "This Comic Sucks" might not have been the best line. I'm left wondering what other meanings it could have.
This is madness! There was nothing on the bread and he still ate it!
No seriously, another great episode, even better than part one. You were absolutely right that this story should have never gone beyond the sick fantasies of whoever wrote it.
EWWW....just really gross. What was wrong with John Byrne? This is Superman! Why is Superman being hypnotized into porn? Does Byrne has some type of weird Superman/porno fetish? You're right, Linkara, this entire story just raises too many questions that I'd rather never hear the answers. I mean sure, in the 1980's I guess Byrne was trying to treat his audience more like adults and introduce them to more controversial topics in comics than "Oh No! Lex Luthor is building a _______" or "The Joker is _____", but porn?! He and the editor for Action Comics at the time must have been out of their minds. Let's hope that DC writers never try to bring this story back into modern continuity, for all our sakes.
Crap; that's what I get for posting before actually finishing the video. My apologies for that.
Also, my god, I never thought that a comic book in a legitimate series with characters such as Big Barda and Superman could EVER sink to levels this low. I know that there are some really creepy people in the industry, as can be evidenced on certain comic covers involving bondage, etc, but DAMN, this story is ridiculous. No wonder they didn't make the comic book cover more relevant to the plot.
I have seen the cover before, and I do like in its Silver Age sense. However, these two reviews really take any fun to be had. You are right, Big Barda got treated like crap throughout it. Sadly, this also brings to mind the infamous arc with Ms. Marvel.
Awesome Tom Servo you have there. Looks like the real thing.
And, thanks Cinema Snob for the showing the films you are carrying. Future reviews?
The reason that I appreciate your righteous indignation in this review is the same reason that I love Lightbringer. You have an admirable, inspirational, uplifting moral compass.
John Byrne never had a good handle on Superman, or even a passable one. He gutted a lot of the mythology and richness out of the character in his reboot and left a superficial, bland shell behind. (Compare the borefest that is MAN OF STEEL with Matt Wagner's superlative TRINITY, or even Alan Moore's SUPREME run, and you can see just how lacking Byrne's take really was.) This story, though, was way off the rails even for him. There's no justification for the humiliation everybody suffers here, or for the fact that there was no resolution at all to the story.
Byrne was always much more suited to Marvel's characters than DC. Methinks he should have just stayed there. Hell, this thing wouldn't be out of place in today's Spider-Man books.
Awesome job Linkara, very amusing episode intro as usual. Totally agree though, this was a VERY icky set, and yet another example of mistreatment of the New Gods...
You're right, that was probably the most ill-conceived plot I've ever heard of. Seriously, the whole idea of aliens using the more subversive side of human commerce to finance a retaliation barely makes sense on its own, let alone when pornography is at the heart of it.
Tom Servo... That may just be the coolest birthday present in history.
Rape can, in fact, be a viable motivation and plot point, but it is a massively difficult subject to handle without offending someone, and if you do it wrong you could not only completely ruin the story but also your reputation as a writer (see; all the hatred directed at Dominic Deegan for the Orc Rape storyline.) And, most importantly, NEVER EVER EVER RETCON RAPE INTO AN EXISTING CHARACTERS BACKSTORY AND/OR HAVE AN EXISTING CHARACTER RAPE/BE RAPED. EVER. It is a BAD IDEA that will PISS PEOPLE OFF. Case in point, this storyline; I like Superman, and seeing him treated this way makes me impossible angry, enough to really wanna give this guy a good punch in the nose. And if I were more familiar with Big Barda, I'd be even more pissed. You've gotta be really careful using rape as a story element - ever.
On a related note, never ever have a character you want to be likable rape someone and/or have raped someone. Rape is one of those things that crosses the Moral Event Horizon.
Great to see the return of the "Previously On..." segments...including random guy eating bread.
Oh, and you pretty much said all that had to be said: implied rape of Big Barda is just plain wrong. You have to wonder what sort of nut Byrne is to force her into that sort of crap...then again he is the writer who had nude pics of She-Hulk as a plot point...heh, my guess is he wanted to do something with Shulkie but respected her too much and did it to Barda instead...yeah, I talk too much of Shulkie don't I? (it's just too obvious to do so with Byrne involved)
Kinoko Nasu frequently uses rape as a plot element in his works, and he is a writer I genuinely respect for his really good story-telling skills and great characterisation Rape, as a bad thing happening to a major character, creates one of the strongest emotional responds from the reader/viewer, not to mention the sheer psychological devastation it leaves on the victim not comparable with regular physical or psychological torture.
Not to mention that rape simply happens It's one of the many bad things that can happen to you in this world, and therefore I don't think that fiction (which by itself is a reflection of reality) should be closing it's eyes from it
I'm recommending the 3rd Kara no Kyokai movie - Remaining Sense of Pain
more info on Kiniko Nasu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinoko_Nasu
So... you have at least one major character get raped and another, even bigger character nearly get raped... let me guess, this is never mentioned again, right? *sigh* Because of course this wouldn't have long-term effects on her psyche or anything. Even if her memories are "foggy," the TAPES are still out there; what happens if she ever finds out about it? Or that her husband kept it from her? Or... *sigh again*
Anyway, your "previously on" just reminded me how few people I actually follow on the site anymore. Most of the humor went straight over my head. :(
The review itself was good and I agree with what you said. However, I think the "Previously on" segment was twice as long as it should've been and began to feel like a buffer just to make the video review longer.
Oh, and please don't have some sort of Insano-style villain again with Lupa like it seems like it's foreshadowing in the video. Both you and Spoony have used characters like that in your videos so much that it's really not that funny anymore. It feels like how "Family Matters" overused Urkel because people initally liked him, or how Activision made so many Guitar Hero games that it's no longer a novelty.
LOVED the "previously on..." segment for this vid.
Todd, Lupa, and hey you even had my boy, ThatJewishGuy (demonstrating that even when rough stuff is going down, my people will still eat)!
Now on to...ugh.
Suffice to say, I really loathe Byrne in this. Why is that so many people have issues with Kirby's characters and want to see them humiliated, raped, or destroyed?
Well, excellent work Linkara. Only you could have made this palatable.
AUGH. Even the massive amounts of hentai I have does not compare to the amounts of sleaze this comic has. At least they were designed PURELY for sexual arousal.
And THIS... AUGH. Look, I have nothing against the abolishment of the Comics Code, but if the creators of comics are irresponsible, and care for nothing more but exploitation-esque comics where they feature sex, uncensored violence and controversial content purely for the sake of entertainment and money than morality and literature, then by all, THEY DESERVE IT. Augh. On a moralistic level, even Nippon doesn't even stoop to this crap (most of the time, but you know what I mean), and even when it does, there is at least a level of suspension of disbelief and knowing that it is fiction than fact.
Fist of the North Star was bloody, but it was horrific to show the horrors of war and anarchy. The numerous dojinshi I have are sexual in content, but those are non canon and meant to be the kind of stuff that you would keep under your bed out of curiosity.
THIS, THIS, augh. And the fact that Big Barda was based on Kirby's wife, that's like kicking you in the nuts for laughs and laughing at you again for being sterile.
Wait, did the porn studio owner make a reference to "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"? Weird, yet appropriate.
And I heard something a while back about it being canon that Darkseid would crib porn from Earth. I guess no other place in the universe has an equivalent for goatse and tubgirl *ducks under a fist thrown at my head*
Seriously, though, this is a horrific story. I'll admit, I've written a fanfic in the past that had rape as its central conflict, but unlike this pile of crap, it was central to the story due to its place in a crime investigation and its connection to the past of a mm ain character. Oh, and it treats rape as it is: a horrible, despicable act. This story treats rape as just another plot point, just like how writers are using random death and violence in comics, nowadays.
Wow that was just eurrgh. Like someone walking over my grave.
I did like the smirk you gave when commenting about Barda's lack of willpower, I could see you planning your revenge on whoever invented that piece of genius.
Also thanks for not using the horrible cover of Maniac released over here (Ireland) 10 years ago. I'm still trying to drown out that memeory.
What a spectacularly icky unpleasant comic. I'm shocked this issue didn't cause Byrne to be fired on the spot. I sincerely hope future comic creators leave this kind of thing to sleazy (pardon the pun) fanficiton writers in the future.
As for the Seven Soldiers/Infinite Crisis take on the new gods, as I understand it Grant Morrison had some sort of time travel explanation in mind for how his take on the New Gods could co-exist alongside of the Kirby originals, so "Death of the New Gods" was completely pointless and unnecessary. I can kind of see what he was going for with the hopelessness urban decay becoming a analogous to Apokolips.
My only theory about how this comic came to be was that the editor was both a Superman/anything female crack fic-er, and didn't care what the story was about as long as it had Superman wiggling around faster than an old washing machine.
In any case, I'll never be able to see Darkseid the same way again. Unless we can fanwank that he's sending his agents to look for porn in order to find Sleezeeeze; hoping, expecting, awaiting the very moment they find a video they can point at and say "Hah, this is totally Sleeze's doing! It's all about dancing!"
That Tom Servo puppet is one hell of a birthday gift. Lewis, you totally need to make a Three Stooges short with Servo, Pollo and Bear.
Also, I'm calling it now: Dr. Obscano is the main villain of next year's arc, where it turns out she's a dread space pirate who likes to rob Earth's banks for some reason.
Wait... what happened to Mr Grossman (the porn director)? Did he not get any comeuppance?
I mean: this is a guy who filmed non-consensual sex between two people who were brainwashed. That's gotta be illegal on several levels, right? But after Mr Miracle turns up we don't see him again, right? (Er... I'm not going to hunt down a copy of this abomination just to check. I don't want to know that badly.)
So what aesop can we get from this story? Not only was rape used as a (very icky) plot point, the villains got away! (Or did they?) That's horrible...
Please tell me I'm wrong and the villains did suffer some kind of karmic punishment. Please?
That security system does seem to be... a bit much.
Wait.. did Oberon come in with Mister Miracle, or was he there the entire time? Why didn't he say something?
How would Oberon not recognize Barda? And also, why did everyone feel the need to comment on her makeup?
Ah, Grossman pictures' glory days. Before they changed their name to Golan-Globus.
Why did Darkseid feel the need to give Mister Miracle the tape in person? Did he really have nothing better to do?
Thanks for the girl wonder link. Interesting column.
As for the rape element. I agree that in this case there is absolutely no reason for it to be used. As you point out, Sleez could already form an army of his own. No, the reason for the rape element is just so John Byrne can go "Ooh, aren't I edgy!" and he's not edgy. He's incredibly offensive. And thats coming from a guy who really like John Byrne's work.
That's not to say that there aren't good comics that involve rape. For example, in Sandman we find out that Desire raped Unity Kinkaid while she was asleep for years. But that was different because A) The story doesn't center on the rape, but rather on the effects it has on the dreaming, B) It actually served to logically advance the story, and C) It was the only thing that could take up that space in the story.
Might want to rework your definition of "Immediate" Scott.
When Superman and Barda are talking, Mr. Terrific has an odd look on his face. Like he's completely unaware what happened.
So, if Sleez was keeping the old people alive, does that mean they just finally died a couple years ago when Sleez was killed?
Also, the New Gods becoming "urban" was one of the dumbest things I ever read.
Heh, awesome. ^^ Well, the comic isn't, but the review is.
Really lived up to my anticipation from when I saw it on the review queue. :)
Hm, I was pondering if one of the reasons for Darkseid exiling Sleez was because he'd already got Desaad in for the God of Perversion role and got rid of the surplus anthropomorphic personification.
That or he realised that someone whose idea of revenge involves raising money from backstreet porn stores to fund an army was kind of stupid.
And Darkseid would know stupid when he sees it, he has to put up with Kalibak on a daily basis.
Can't say that I'd be that suprised if they did raise at least some of the money from the tapes though, considering the (creepy) insertation of superhero-themed strippers (both sexes) in the tie-ins to Black Canary and Green Arrows wedding, I'd think that there'd be some kinda market for the stuff.
Hey Lewis, I thought I would leave some of my thoughts here, both in response to this... thing and to your take on Morrison's versions of the New Gods. I do agree with you that the lacked majesty in these forms, but I think that was deliberate. On one level, it was probably all that a considerably weakened Darkseid could manage after getting killed by Orion. On another, it was the God of Evil's commentary on humanity: he views them as weak and pathetic, and so his reconstituted followers are reduced to twisted caricatures, which might also have something to do with the fact that the human New Gods aren't the originals but what I understand to be golems animated by Darkseid's will and based on his memories of his followers. He viewed them as tools at the best of times, and ultimately disposed of them when they were no longer useful. As for this little pile of steaming offal, this is the New Gods used badly. Aside from the all-around vile implications of what happened to Barda, it doesn't seem to Darkseid's style. When I think of Darkseid disposing of his enemies, I think of what he did in "Final Crisis"- grind them into as pathetic a husk as possible and then either Omega them or goad them into doing something that brings about their own demise. Above all else, he is a manipulator. Here he just comes across as lazy. And for that matter, Sleez's design was just... bland. At least for me, one of the most interesting things about the human New Gods was how aspects of their grandiose Kirby designs remained: Mokkari's tattoos or Metron's pupils. Sleez has nothing grand: if there had to be a New God who manipulated people on a sexual level, he should have been a Caligula figure: deep purples and reds, long flowing robes, and handsome features in a distinctly "plastic" way; something artificial and supremely disconcerting. Sorry for the length, it's my first post here.
Oh, that is SICK AND WRONG. If Superboy-Prime is good for anything, I hope his reality-punching made this smear against good taste vanish into nothingness...
My biggest problem with this, aside from the really, really, really sick treatment of Barda as a character, is how badly Sleez is designed. If there absolutely had to be a New God based around sexual manipulation, I would want them to be a Caligula-like figure: long flowing robes in rich colors, a constant lounge and very off features: handsome, but in a way that just does not seem physically possible; eyes asymmetrical and hair looking more like skin than anything. Instead, we get a vague glob that resembles the evil food from Calvin and Hobbes. On another note, I'm going to have to disagree with you about how Morrison handled the New Gods. Yes, their grand nature was stripped from them, but it was a part of the story, and I think it was well-handled. In the case of Darkseid's followers this was particularly interesting. They are not actually Granny Goodness, Glorious Godfrey and Kalibak; they are Darksied's memories of them. This is the God of Evil here, and the most compassionate he ever got was never permanently killing Kailbak. He viewed them as pathetic, and so they came across as exactly that; sniveling, competitive thugs constantly vying for some drip of favor from him. As for Darkseid and Metron, Darkseid was working with effectively no power at the beginning of Final Crisis, to the point where his body was rotting; I choose to think that it was all he could maintain while maintaining his golems as well. Metron is a little trickier, but more than likely his human form was used to hide from Darkseid: he still had access to his power in the form of his Rubik's Cube, and when the time came, he unleashed it. -Justin Harrison
Sorry Linkara, but there was nothing to say "bow-chicka-wow-wow" over anyway.
Darkseid relaxing in someone's home ends up being repeated in a later issue of "Justice League". And of course there was that episodic fail otherwise known as "Countdown" when he paid Mary Marvel a visit. Darkseid seems to make himself at home a lot... makes you wonder why he even bothers to have a throne room.
"It's finally happened. I am officially sick of the "previously on" segments with a whole bunch of stupid crap that has nothing to do with the upcoming episode. "
...I've had a total of five, one of them not even counting as one since it had only one cameo. I haven't had one in over a year. And you're sick of it?
Actually Link, I'm surprised you didn't realize this, but what was happening to Big Barada also bodes just as badly for Superman.
Sleeze would be just as guilty for sexually assaulting SUPERMAN.
When Supervillians swap stories to scare each other, they tell Joker stories. When they want to swap stories to see who throws up in disgust, they tell Sleeze stories.
Something I'm surprised you never brought up. Superman can FLY (Don't know if Big Barda can, but Supes sure as hell can), and they get taken out by a gravity powered trap door.
the two comics just piss me off that big barda one of dc universes badasses is insulted and derided at every turn in this comic from the implied rape, to nearly being in a porn video with superman, its like the author has no respect for the legacy of Jack kirby at all.
"Something I'm surprised you never brought up. Superman can FLY (Don't know if Big Barda can, but Supes sure as hell can), and they get taken out by a gravity powered trap door."
I let them get away with it since Barda had knocked him unconscious at the time.
""It's finally happened. I am officially sick of the "previously on" segments with a whole bunch of stupid crap that has nothing to do with the upcoming episode. "
...I've had a total of five, one of them not even counting as one since it had only one cameo. I haven't had one in over a year. And you're sick of it? "
My thoughts exactly when I first read that, dude. Personally, I love these previousl on segments. I honastly coudn't wait til this episode for that very reason, which when combined with the dread for what I knew the story was about caused a very conflicting emotion. :S
"...I've had a total of five, one of them not even counting as one since it had only one cameo. I haven't had one in over a year. And you're sick of it?"
I'm just completely burnt out on that trope (for lack of a better word). That sort of thing was simultaneously invented and perfected years ago by Family Guy on "Brian Does Hollywood." And now it seems like every time somebody on TGWTG has a multiparter it always has to be that specific style. It comes off less as being creative and more like being "oh, this is a two parter, time to come up with a bunch of random shit!"
I'm just sick of it that's all, and to be honest the review would have flowed alot better if you had just started off with a recap of the previous issue.
I have to agree, off the top of my head I can only think of 1 instance where rape was compelling for a story and only a few more than that where it wasn't detrimental.
Pollo and Tom Servo are a buddy cop movie waiting to happen, which is several layers of awesome, sprinkled on win!
@Sethery - yeah the potential Avenue Q joke would have been awesome!
I feel very icky after this, it was just wrong! you made it funny, but the topic is still wrong!
But yeah, Sleez's plan should have been put on the list of awful plans, right with the twin clones of Hilter, the Nightcrawler as Pope thing, and the villians plan in SpiderMan & Storm & Cage. Think about it. A New God related character with mind control abilities, takes control of Big Barta and Superman, to make money from making a porno, for the funding of an army, instead of using Superman and Barta as their army, to fight Darkside.
So until the new robot dancing show "You Got Servo'd" debuts, MAKE MINE LINKARA!
John Byrne is just scum. As the story points out, Barda shouldn't have been subject to hypnotherapy and Sleez using a skill like mind-control just to make porn is VERY stupid. Byrne has never had plotholes this big in his stories, which just proves he went out of his way to ignore story logic in the name of degrading Big Barda.
Jack Kirby hated Byrne, and yet the guy pretend to wonder why Jack hated him so much. My personal theory is Byrne hit on Jack's wife at a party, was spurned and came up with this nasty little piece of work.
i totally disagree with you on the whole new gods thing. i loved what morrison did with the new gods. they fell from grace only to be reborn again as gods (at the end of final crisis)
I'm glad I'm not alone in disliking this previously on segment. Usually they are pretty good, but I didn't like this one if only because I can't stand Jewario, Sage, Sad Panda and Todd in The Shadows. But hey, its his show Linkara can do whatever he wants with it.
I'm also tired of that Dr INSERT A NAME OF A THATGUYWITHTHEGLASSES MEMBER Insano. . . I mean it was funny, but know is getting sooo old! Its like the Critic says ''remember how funny that joke was the first time... how about using it again!''
The other thing is that I also disagree with the rape thing. . . yes, is used really badly here but as other guy before me said, rape is part of the real world... a ugly part, so we shouldn't deny that exist and it could be use it as a motor to a good story (go and read a manga called Berserk! ) but saying that we shouldn't use it as a plot point just because is wrong just comes off as preachy.
Like we didn't knew that rape is wrong. . .
I mean, I still liked the review, but I have to give my opinion in those matters.
The previously on segment was funny, as the few others you've done were. The Snob's cameo was great, particularly his 'My Cinema Snob sense is tingling.'
... The comic... Both parts of it... Ugh... I think my biggest problem with it, oddly, is this Sleez character. In the same sort of way you don't like Divatox. He's an alien. Our money should mean diddly squat to the galaxy at large. His method of acquiring said money was also... Problematic. Porn, with actors who are not doing it willingly. As you said, since they kinda brushed it under the rug as soon as it was done, not okay.
"That sort of thing was simultaneously invented and perfected years ago by Family Guy on 'Brian Does Hollywood.' "
Nope on both accounts. I first saw this trope used on an episode of "The Kids in the Hall" in the early 90's (and it was perfected then and there, IMHO and as with many of their tropes that would be stolen by others).
Onto the comic review:
Ick. I have never, ever seen rape handled well in any medium. But especially not in comics (hence why I left them for so long...till you came around, Linkara.)
As a woman, I've always felt that there was a certain lack of understanding (and for lack of a better term, respect) amongst writers concerning rape of women.
Women, we have quite a few more concerns dealing with rape than men do (pregnancy, uterine damage, social stigma, etc). I am not saying that male rape victims don't experience trauma that is deeper and more painful than most of us can imagine (because they do).
But I am saying that rape is not some issue you can toss onto a woman.
I've worked as a Social Worker for nigh-on 15 years. I worked with people who were brutally victimized sexually, emotionally, and mentally. You cannot understand that unless you've been in their shoes or you've spent much of your life living in their world.
I've had the misfortune of both.
Maybe rape can be handled with respect and with understanding.
But I haven't seen it yet. What I've seen is a bunch of black turtleneck wearing assclowns thinking they are "Edgy" and "Cool" by making most every female characters in comics victims of sexual exploitation and rape and only granting them power when they adopt the roles of the exploiter.
Some will argue that featuring rape is good because it is a "feature of reality and we must face it".
Hey, you know what else is real? Castration with a rusty jigsaw. You know what else is real? Getting your testicles pounded into jelly.
This was such a squicky little comic. Randomly inserting rape into a story does not make it good. It's not a plot device to be throw around all willy nilly for a few issues and then forgotten about. The way the whole thing was handled was just disturbing, and the ending was totally ridiculous. Suddenly Barda and even Superman were just willing to forget about what happened to them for the sake of plot convenience? That is lazy story telling, at the very least.
On a less creepy note, as I'm fairly new to the comic universe I've never heard of Barda before and she seems like an interesting character. Can you maybe point me in the direction of a good series that involves her? Excuse my ignorance.
Been some time since the last "Previously On" segment. Great job as usual. The comic was plain wrong. Big Barda and Superman? What in the world were they smoking to produce this? This is the thing Superboy-Prime and Spiderman should be retconning.
Great analysis Jannet_Jazz, glad to hear from someone who has worked with victims. I will say there the manga Berzerk, which Benzaie has reviewed, has dealt with the topic in an effective way, taking from the artist's personal experiences.
Yes, this issue is as utterly wrong as I remember. Ugh.
I'm told that John Byrne was told about Jack Kirby's reaction to this story, and Byrne's response was to call the person who told him a liar. I think there's a reason why people say Byrne is a dick.
I do have to quibble about one thing, though. Superman kicking Darkseid's ass is a Post-Crisis thing. It was a VERY different story Pre-Crisis. This is a Post-Crisis story, but since it happened in the late 80's I think it was before Superman could beat Darkseid by singing at him or however Final Crisis ended.
I'm glad that this story has been ignored as far as I can tell. That's how retcons are very quietly administered.
Oh, and the Previously segment was pretty awesome.
Huh. Superman and Barda making a porno. Sounds like a bad X rated fanfic or something. I had always wondered why I had never seen Sleez in any New Gods story I've read when I saw him in countdown, so I was curious about him. Now I wish I had never heard of him. With the exception of Sleez, I really hope DC decides to bring the New Gods back to their former glory. They are some of the most interesting characters for me to read about. Especially Darkseid, Orion, Barda, and Metron. They deserved a far more epic end than they got and must return.
I loved the previously on segment. Particularly as I was having toast right as That Jewish Guy came on screen eating his bread. XD it was so "....whoa. Meta." moment. Said in a very 90s kid voice, of course.
To be honest, I'm a little surprised at how you continue to be shocked at Darkseid sitting on bits of furniture.
I realize he's supposed to be this huge, malevolent force in the universe, but he does this a lot. I mean a lot.
Mary Marvel's couch...Mr. Miracle's chair...
Did you ever read that issue of Justice League International that showed Darkseid's little getaway space underneath the Apokolips' surface? He was sitting in a chair just like that; reading Mein Kampf.
Darkseid on comfortable furniture is kind of old hat at this point.
It may not add to his aura of evil or make him seem the least bit menacing, but sometimes a guy's just got to sit down. =)
And while I'm not sure if it was before the Kids in the Hall sketch (probably not), I know for certain that episode 70 of Animaniacs (first airdate, per Wiki, 9 September 1995) used the same sort of "Previously on" bit as a cold opener, as a triple-gag that also covered A) not having had any new episodes air in 10 months, and not having made any new material before this in a year and a half, and B) their not being able to use older Animaniacs footage for a couple more months, until the contract with Fox for the first two seasons ran out.
Family Guy has invented very, very little over the years, and perfected far less...
I have nothing to add except that I agree totally and wholeheartedly with Jannet_Jazz's comments on how rape in fiction is, by its nature, exploitative and ignorant to the real-world ramifications of the act itself. I'm glad someone else gets what's so wrong with the "it's good drama/it happens in real life" excuses some people keep throwing around.
But not dealing with the subject is just closing ones eyes before it! While it's rarely being handled properly and many writers do it just for the sake of being controversial, it definitely IS a topic that SHOULD be dealt with! And some writers (even if not explore it to the fullest extent) did at least treat the subject with respect.
By making writing about rape a taboo, we may as well ban the topics of genocide and child abuse! And yet there are several well respected works on those subjects.
I still think that people is to whiny about the rape thing. . . I mean is not like people portrait rape as a positive thing like they do in a lot of Japanese stuff...
Also I know how bad rape is, a really close friend of mine was rape when she was a child and I know that that still haunts her to this day and I'm not resting importance to that. . .
It just bothers me people talking about how wrong is having rape in a story and that we just shouldn't and being all preachy about it...
Rape is something that happens everyday and unless people are glorifying it, I don't see the problem with using it in stories.
Yes, this might actually be the worst comic that has ever been designed for its base premise alone. Period. End of story.
I know what people are gonna say; a guy can't argue against something that happens mainly to women or something stupid like that. But dammit, I've done it before, and it's rape for Superman too. Since the culture dictates it to be wrong for all, its wrong for all, even if the culture doesn't point it towards the other way. Yes, I like my ladies-as do we all if we are of that orientation, but gender equality and what is allowed in media is what is at stake here.
Not to mention there are more than enough tropes to use which, while not exactly good ones, are far better than using rape as one. Kidnapping, mind control and attack a superhero, mind control and attack innocent people. It's not hard.
Thank you for tearing this one a new one. Thank you.
The sad thing I just heard is that they actually want to make a Superman parody porno, just like the one recently done with Batman.
This makes me cry.
(And my apologies to Lewis. Apparently putting the RSS feed on my site translates here as a trackback, which should be reserved to actually LINKING to the article.)
"I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's a castrate"
I'm not. Why the hell would you even suggest it?
Oh, yes, it's because I believe that women should be treated like human beings and that I don't want pornography in my superhero comics. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that's why you think that.
"Speaking as a John Byrne fan, this is almost as bad as Superman Returns."
The fundamental difference being that SUPERMAN RETURNS was 100% in character for most involved (the damn thing took all its plot and design point from all over the mythology -- including Elseworlds) and was handled ineptly, whereas nothing whatsoever in this comic was remotely in character for anybody and was morally bankrupt.
Sorry, but RETURNS is the lesser of the two evils. That movie was merely half-assed. Byrne was way out of line here beyond any of the relatively minor flubs of the movie.
"Painful and humiliating castration is already being used allot more than rape, and it's treated even less properly."
Yep. How is it used? To illustrate the horrific conditions and exploitative measures that can befall a male in a society, thus bringing into stark relief the ramifications of the event for the victim, their family, and their lifestyle?
No. It's a punchline. A sick joke. A simple case of exploitation just to get a rise out of the audience.
It isn't treated less properly than rape. It's the same honkin' problem.
I'm not asking people to shy away from the subject. People do need to talk about this. People do need to talk about the horrors of sexual exploitation.
The problem is that no one seems to have the stones to cover the subject with the delicacy and depth that it deserves.
When a superhero dies, there's a funeral, there are ramifications, the loss of a life is handled as a deep, soul-rending loss.
When a woman is raped, it just boosts the male hero into action for a few issues and then we all forget it. When a man is raped in comics,it's used as a sight gag. "Oh ho! Isn't that funny that a man is being violated against his will? Hyuck! Hyuck!"
You can mask it as "art" or "social commentary" all you like. But unless it has depth and treats the subject well and with the respect it deserves, then it's just crap done for the sake of crap or at worst pornography for misogynistic losers.
but seriously I know you already addressed this in an earlier video, but most of the time it really comes off as if you find any implication of sex (whether consensual or not) to be revolting As if sex existed only as a mean of humiliating women
Yes, I do find some of the depictions in comics to be ridiculous, but I usually just laugh at them and go along with it. Honestly, I wouldn't react to Superman running around in a speedo any differently - in fact as someone who has some experience with manga, I had my share of male characters in clothes that barely hid anything (Akio Ohtori, I'm looking at you!)
However you seem to fly into an immediate rage even at stuff tat could be considered passable (for example Wonder Woman's new costume which in my opinion is far more acceptable than what she usually wears - no matter how tight the pants may look)
You always talk about sex only in the most negative way and often you seem to be trying to make people be ashamed of their own sexuality!
"but seriously I know you already addressed this in an earlier video, but most of the time it really comes off as if you find any implication of sex (whether consensual or not) to be revolting As if sex existed only as a mean of humiliating women "
When my show is about bad comic books, of course it's going to feature examples of sex and sexuality used in negative purposes. The nudity in SCI-Spy is unnecessary, the nudity and sex in the Dark Knight Strikes Again is unnecessary and immature. The situation depicted in this comic is disgusting and wretching, made all the worse that it DOESN'T realize that this has happened.
I have never stated sex is revolting. I have never said that sex is bad. You are seeing patterns in things that are not there. Sex is good. Sex is awesome. Sex is healthy.
Sex in THESE COMICS is what is depicted badly.
"Yes, I do find some of the depictions in comics to be ridiculous, but I usually just laugh at them and go along with it. Honestly, I wouldn't react to Superman running around in a speedo any differently - in fact as someone who has some experience with manga, I had my share of male characters in clothes that barely hid anything (Akio Ohtori, I'm looking at you!)"
Good for you. I'm not you. I do not laugh and "go along with it." I expect better from creators who are supposed to know what they're doing. I am a critic. I criticize, I nitpick, and I deconstruct. I call bad writing when I see it.
"However you seem to fly into an immediate rage even at stuff tat could be considered passable (for example Wonder Woman's new costume which in my opinion is far more acceptable than what she usually wears - no matter how tight the pants may look)"
I did not "fly into a rage" at the new costume. People continually asked me what my thoughts on it were (when I never actually planned on ever really bringing it up), so I GAVE people my opinion.
"You always talk about sex only in the most negative way and often you seem to be trying to make people be ashamed of their own sexuality!"
"You always talk about sex only in the most negative way and often you seem to be trying to make people be ashamed of their own sexuality!"
No. it seems to me, that he only talks negatively about sexual exploitation. The objectification of people as mere sexual units. The reducing of deep emotional and physical conditions as mere consumer product. Not sexuality in general.
I'd say the only people he's to make "ashamed" are those who have it coming.
@Jannet_Jazz actually, that was actually my point as well
It's not the subject matter that is bad, it's the way it is being used. This comic was a good example of how not to do it.
You talk about the rape of a female character just being used to motivate the male character. But what if it serves as motivation for a female character?
I'm not sure if this is a good example, but it is at least from one of the more competent writers. In "Remaining Sense of Pain" , the third movie in the Kara no Kyoukai series While the main plot is in it's most base form just a story of vengeance, a rape-victim taking brutal retribution on her tormentors while the protagonists (basically private investigators) follow her trail, the depiction of the subject itself was given a degree of attention. Fujino wasn't your typical vengeful antagonist, throughout the movie she was depicted as a mentally scarred and traumatised person for whom the act of vengeance only provided temporary relief, yet she latched-on to it as the only thing she was left. Not to mention the constant presence of physical pain she experiences throughout the course of the movie and which is even a plot-point, alto in a different way than one would expect. By the end of the movie she turns around realising that she still has things to live for besides plain vengeance and is horrified that she may have thrown it all away just to get a momentary relief of her pain. Yet is doesn't come off as overt preachy
Once again, not sure if it's the best example, but it was one of the instances when this subject left an actual impact on me as a viewer while it didn't feel unnecessary.
'' When a woman is raped, it just boosts the male hero into action for a few issues and then we all forget it. When a man is raped in comics,it's used as a sight gag. "Oh ho! Isn't that funny that a man is being violated against his will? Hyuck! Hyuck!" ''
Yeah, this is a case when a person reads a story that goes that way anf thinks that EVERY single story within that subject goes the same way...
There are plenty of stories when the guy is raped and they are not doing it for the laughs... Hell I can't even recall one good story in which they do that!
Go and watch American Story X, read Berserk or Seekers, they have good examples of that . . .
And I'm sorry that a guy being castrated is not use it in a serious way in a story, even if I don't wish that to another man, it can be helped... just the idea could be funny.
Not to mention that that would be torture, not rape.
And I kind of have to agree with that Anonymous guy. . . Link, you sometimes sound like if a man liking a woman's body was a sick tough! I can remember that review of The Spirit that you did with... Sage? Don't remember in which you kind of insulted the other guy for liking the naked girl that was in the movie telling him '' What are you?? Frank Miller?? '' or something like that. . .
I know that the nudity wasn't necessary in the movie, but I don't see whats wrong with a man liking that... I mean
Also you didn't seem to be bothered with the fan service in the Power Girl comic, I remember that you said that it was because it was used for laughs ( Yeah, Power Girl running naked... hilarious )
Bu that comic was filled with fanservice! Like the constant close ups to power girl's breasts, Terra fighting almost in underwear, Power Girl and Terra using a incredible small bikini for no reason. . . unless you call that comedy too. . .
( yeah I know that this has almost nothing to do with the Big Barda rape comic, but I always wanted to point that out... that and that the girl in that radio show its kind of an hypocrite. . . I still remember her calling a guy stupid because he didn't wanted to have sex with her girlfriend so he can go to play warhammer with his friends...because a man not wanting to have sex is weird! he must be gay or something! )
"When a woman is raped, it just boosts the male hero into action for a few issues and then we all forget it. When a man is raped in comics,it's used as a sight gag. 'Oh ho! Isn't that funny that a man is being violated against his will? Hyuck! Hyuck!'"
While I will concede to this being true a lot of the time (i.e. the entirety of the movie "Teeth"), I can think of one example where it wasn't used as a sight gag. Alan Moore's "Miracleman" run.
"Kid Marvelman lurks within Johnny's mind, trying to tempt him into once more saying the word and allowing the mad superhuman to re-emerge. Johnny gives in at last when he was about to be raped by a group of older boys at a group home. Free again, Kid Marvelman butchers Johnny's rapists, then moves on to everyone else in the facility."
While it is still part of the trope of "rape causing the victim to take action," it's not written to be funny. It's written to be horrific. The events that follow are horrific as well. Could it be written better, say, without the rape? Yes, I think so. Others will disagree.
While it isn't really "better" to say, "at least it isn't funny," there are fiction writers who take males being violated seriously.
As for the topic of using rape in fiction, as much as I hate to do this, I'm throwing my opinion into the ring. I just wrote a blog entry on my art blog if anyone does want to read it, but I'm going to paraphrase it here. It's going to be a touchy subject for someone no matter who writes it. A rape survivor could write a story, and there's a good chance that someone will be offended.
Does that mean we should stop using it in fictional settings? No. The "House" episode "One Day, One Room" is about House taking care of a female patient who was raped, impregnated by it, and also contracted Chlamydia. I won't spoil the episode, but it is one of the best written episodes of the show that I've seen.
As an aspiring web comic writer/artist, one of my projects is to do a web comic that is mainly drama, but is a fictionalized "shadow" of my life. One of the main characters in it is based off of a friend I've known for 20 years. She works as a counselor for rape survivors and even organizes a survivor group. Two months ago, she, herself, was raped. She calmed me down (I wanted to beat the hell out of the guy who did it, to say the least), and while she still has to live with it, she lives her life like she did before.
I was amazed when she actually requested me to write it into my comic. It wasn't for shock value, but because how she grew from it, as well as me and my friends. She has confidence that I'll make it about the survival, not the shock value.
Mostly, when it's done, it's either for shock value, or it's under played. But, I do think that rape has been written into some fiction very well. Think about it, would Laurie Juspeczyk be the second Silk Specter if her mother wasn't almost raped by the Comedian? Would Olivia Benson be an SVU detective if she wasn't the product of rape?
In the case of this comic, though, um... the story wasn't necessary.
"Go and watch American Story X, read Berserk or Seekers, they have good examples of that . . ."
Except for Seekers, been there done that:
"Berserk"
This is when I tried to get into Japanese comics and I got sick of the stuff. The premise was interesting. But it went no where. The women after being raped were either reduced to useless objects or became sub-human, and the main character, Guts who is this tortured soul who was brutally sexually exploited, really doesn't do anything with that motivation or trauma except slash things apart and fail at diplomacy like your usual Byronic-style hero.
"American History X"
Okay, I admit this was actually an interesting idea: demonstrate that the skinheads would easily turn on their own. Hate is all consuming and that in the end no one wins. Good Aesop.
The problem is that the rape itself was just a single event and then we forget about it four minutes later. No introspection. No scenes of Derek waking up screaming or trying to make sense of the horror. No attempts to get into the minds of the rapists. Nothing.
"And I'm sorry that a guy being castrated is not use it in a serious way in a story, even if I don't wish that to another man, it can be helped... just the idea could be funny."
I'm sure that those poor souls in Sudan, China, and much of the Middle East who have experienced that don't share your detached amusement.
"Not to mention that that would be torture, not rape."
Wrong. Castration is more than simply the removal of an organ. It is an expression of utter sexual dominance. It is, much like rape, a matter of power and control. It is no less sexual, no less a violation than rape.
I suggest you read, "Male victims of sexual assault" by King and Mezey.
------------------
@ Window Keeper:
"I was amazed when she actually requested me to write it into my comic. It wasn't for shock value, but because how she grew from it, as well as me and my friends. She has confidence that I'll make it about the survival, not the shock value."
Good, I'd love to read it. If the subject is handled well and in a well-rounded fashion, then I don't mind. In fact, that'd be a good thing.
(Linkara, I think the internet gremlins ate my last post. So I'll try again.)
"Go and watch American Story X, read Berserk or Seekers, they have good examples of that . . . "
Did not see Seekers but I did watch AHX and read Berserk:
Beserk:
Women get raped and become objects or damsels to be rescued or are reduced to subhuman states. Guts suffers sexual exploitation as a child and there is no effect on his present state. It's just one more indignity, just one more crime that fuels his murderous rampages and his inability to use diplomacy. He's your standard Byronic-style hero, a leaky faucet of testosterone who every female wants to have sex with even at the expense of themselves.
American History X:
A good attempt and message, IE: the view of skinheads turning on their own and hatred consuming itself, etc.
But there is very little expression of the event in the character of Derek. Does he wake up screaming? Does it haunt his days and nights? Where is the trauma? Where is the survival? IT occurs in one scene and then in five minutes he's all better, just a little miffed.
"And I'm sorry that a guy being castrated is not use it in a serious way in a story, even if I don't wish that to another man, it can be helped... just the idea could be funny."
Yeah, I think the poor souls in Sudan, China, and parts of the Middle East don't share your detached amusement.
"Not to mention that that would be torture, not rape."
Wrong. Castration is an act of power and control framed within a mindset of sexual dominance via elimination. It is no less sexual, no less a violation than rape is.
I suggest you read "Male victims of Sexual Assault" by Mezey and King.
"I was amazed when she actually requested me to write it into my comic. It wasn't for shock value, but because how she grew from it, as well as me and my friends. She has confidence that I'll make it about the survival, not the shock value."
Good. I'd be glad to read it and if it handles the events and particulars well, I'd even recommend your work.
Well actually I'm not really in a rage about this.
Yes, this is a stupid premise and it should never have been done, but the badness is rather pedistrian. They may have been handed an awful premise, but they did a workmanlike job with it, and so the end result is less "Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, you're insane!" and more "Meh."
The plan is not as crazy as it sounds, there's a lot of money in the porn industry, and Superman's lost to Darkseid too, so having some backup is probably worthwhile. The real problem, I suspect, would be authenticating that these are really Superman and Big Barda and not impersonators.
The story doesn't really revel in its premise or even actually explore it, it just plods from one station of it to another while making as little reference to the thing as possible. It doesn't want to deal with its story. It doesn't want to talk about what it did today, thank you. And so I can't really get upset here; the comic's just as ashamed of this as anyone. I'll send it to its room without dinner but it already knows it did wrong.
Oh, porn does raw seething emotion too, but not in the same sense. (And rather less often then it probably should. I don't think we're watching porn for tender, directors!)
Actually, what gets me about this is the implication that sex is veddy, veddy badddddd and amoral and someone as moral as Superman would never have sex! (I'll accept the dig at Barda as instead an unpalatable truth; she's an ex-Fury and has been down the amoral road before. Superman hasn't. Remembered behaviors are easier than learning new ones.) Basically, getting paid for something you enjoy and that's a fundemental biological urge is EVVVVVILLL, says John Byrne. Casual sex is bad! Sex between people who aren't married is bad! Grrrrr sex!
How about the scene of Derek crying after it happened? Also just because people react to rape some ways that doesn't mean that everybody has to have the same reactions . . . they could have handle the thing better, but it would have made the movie worse just focusing in the rape all of a sudden for the rest of the film. . . still is not the worst example of rape ever, but having him on prison you can kind of expect that happen to him
The thing about castration being funny, I'm not saying that that happening is funny. . . it has to be horrible... but come on! People talking about it would find it funny, I know that it shouldn't be and that is childish, but it can't be helped.
Its like in that Batman comic that Kevin Smith did in which he had a ''bladder spasm'' because he used plastic explosives for the first time in his life in year one and he didn't knew about explosions and he was in the range of the explosion and you know. . . Its a realistic thing to happen, but still people were still really piss off ( he,he ! ) about it because Batman pissing himself is ridiculous and un-heroic.
And about Berserk, I think that the effect on rape of the main guy is played out during the whole thing. . . he doesn't like to be touched, he is really angry all the time, he cries about it and has a lot of issues because of that because he hates being weak and that was the time when he was weak and couldn't do anything about it. . . but maybe you ( and me to ) have to read more of the story.
You know, i read about this on facebook one time and thought my friends were joking. Now i wish they were! What the hell was byrne thinking with this piece of uttershit?
Do know what Byrne's answer to this ENTIRE storyline was? "If you want it to be a porno it was. if you don't it wasn't!" That's not even covering half the questions! Why were the old people having trouble? Why did Sleeze pick Barda out of all to be his sex slave? Do you want to know the really annoying thing? What if this had been Lois Lane, huh? Think about it. She wasn't goody do gooder in MoS, and hadn't been trained by Granny Goodness. This may seem strange for me saying this, but Barda is easily a stand in for any other female character Byrne has ever written in this story. Honestly, think about how much more offensive it would be.
Suddenly noticed something. Sleez (what an appropriate name!) talks about the "depravity buried deep in the core of every human soul". Um, last time I checked, neither Superman nor Big Barda are exactly human--he's a Kryptonian and she's a New God!
Totally LOVE the Tom Servo you have there Linkara! I built my own Servo about six years ago and he's been a fun conversation piece ever since. Although seeing how nice and pristine your own Servo looks reminds me of the hard fact I need to get some replacement parts in and fix my poor Servo up; years of traveling across the East Coast to various conventions and moving have been rough on him over the years. I've lost count of how many times his dome has fallen off and gotten cracked or broken, but it's the love of keeping him up and the fond memories of the show that make it worth it! That and dressing him up in funny costumes; picture related, here's my own Servo at Dragoncon last year dressed up as the Comedian from Watchmen. http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/3906/2317645.jpg
" built my own Servo about six years ago and he's been a fun conversation piece ever since."
Hey, yours looks absolutely awesome and I give you a heck of a lot more credit - you actually BUILT your Servo. While I'm fond of the one my brother bought for me, you still deserve a lot of credit for actually putting together the pieces and making it, so immense kudos to you and Tom Blake!
Ah, then we agree on the main point then: it could have been handled better. That's all I've been saying.
You can feature rape. But you need to handle it realistically and with a mind on consequences.
He wakes up crying....so? What else? What about the other universal features of post-traumatic stress?
I'm not saying it was bad movie. Heck, any film that shows the consequences of blind hate is god in my book. But the fact is, it simply presented an element, and then tossed it away.
"People talking about it would find it funny, I know that it shouldn't be and that is childish, but it can't be helped."
Yes, it can be helped. Empathy, understanding the pain of others and the horrible consequences of being a victim of such trauma. Like I said, read the book I recommended.
Maybe you'll change your mind. Maybe you won't. But at the very least, you'll understand why people like me who work with victims (as well as the victims themselves) get so tense about it.
As for Berserk,
I'll grant you that Guts' adverse reaction to intimate contact and his crying may be Miura's attempt to explore his past as a victim of sexual trauma. But that's the thing: is it? If you lived in a world whose basic message is, "Life sucks and then you get killed for five panels", if you lived in a world where EVERYBODY is a raging prick, where EVERYTHING wants you dead (and/or wants to do unspeakable things to your corpse), a world where no matter what demographic you fall in, most EVERYONE in your cohort wants to perform acts of unspeakable evil...in such a world, wouldn't you be just tad nervous about getting close to anyone?
Great review Linkara. Also, awesome Tom Servo gift. Lucky dawg.
I'm surprised at how many people keep asking why this story happened. The answer to that is pretty simple; because it can.
We've been reading comics about these characters for a LONG time, so sometimes storylines get really dry. Every once in a while authors will try something new. Sometimes it works out, like how Spawn did the hero thing a little differently. Sometimes, like in this comic, it just doesn't pan out. Too many plot holes and ill conceived ideas.
I'm also surprised at how many people are upset over something that is implied. Never in the comic(from what was shown in the review; i haven't read the comic) do they say that rape or sex ever happened. Barda's "days of indignity" is such a broad statement because we don't really know what might hurt her dignity. For all we know she was forced to sing for 2 days, or even dance and that dancing is a no-no in her culture. But, because of how she is dressed, and the way things are presented, we assume it's sexual.
And nothing happened between sups and barda beyond a little making out. The director and Miracle Man saw to that.
That being said, I don't fault anyone for the way they feel on the subject because it's a sensitive topic. As I said, I'm just a little surprised at the reaction and wanted to state that.
Well, at least this comic very indirectly led to something good: I've finally found a couple DC characters who actually intrigue me, in Miracle Man and Big Barda. (Not saying "ZOMG THEY SOUND LIKE THE BEST SUPERHEROES EVER," but they at least sound like they're worth looking into.) Well, okay, admittedly I'm interested in Blue Beetle too, since you recommended that -- but I can't find it in the shops around here. Boo!
Other than that, this comic is absolutely terrible, but you are awesome.
Also, love the return of "Darksyde sitting on someone's couch" -- for some reason, I like thinking of him as a guy who goes around chilling out on superheroes' couches for fun. That's probably because I haven't read any DC comics yet, and thus don't know him as a serious character, haha.
Wow. That was disturbing indeed. I've yet to actually read any John Byrne stuff, but if this is how he routinely treats his female characters... I'm not sure I want to.
But again, Linkara... your criticism of "Darkseid sitting on a couch what the hell" is just waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. Even back when Kirby was writing him, Darkseid was always doing things like that. I have in my hands the fifth issue of the Super Powers mini-series, written and drawn by the King himself. Do you know what Darkseid does in it? Casually ride down a public elevator, even sharing it with a meek DC Comics inker who's complaining about his workload. And he doesn't even Omega Beam the poor fella, he just gives him a curious stare. Here's Darkseid under Jack Kirby's penmanship, working at McDonald's: http://www.currion.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/McDarkseid.png And again, Kirby's Darkseid... allows himself to be mugged just for the heck of it: http://img230.imageshack.us/f/322507497acbded9ff7olj0.jpg/
And here's Darkseid chilling on an armchair, reading Mein Kamph: http://team-bates.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/darkseidchillsout.jpg
So yeah... you really need to cut back on the "DARKSEID DOESN'T SIT ON COUCHES RAAAAGE". It's totally in character for him to do so.
"I've yet to actually read any John Byrne stuff, but if this is how he routinely treats his female characters... I'm not sure I want to."
Don't do it. There's a site out there that documents in well-researched detail about how Byrne can only write women as either flighty or evil and has a thing for torturing pregnant women. And that's not touching the fact that his art has become increasingly crappy.
"The fundamental difference being that SUPERMAN RETURNS was 100% in character for most involved (the damn thing took all its plot and design point from all over the mythology -- including Elseworlds) and was handled ineptly, whereas nothing whatsoever in this comic was remotely in character for anybody and was morally bankrupt."
"The fundamental difference being that SUPERMAN RETURNS was 100% in character for most involved (the damn thing took all its plot and design point from all over the mythology -- including Elseworlds) and was handled ineptly, whereas nothing whatsoever in this comic was remotely in character for anybody and was morally bankrupt."
I don't think it was in character for Superman to fly off for five years. I also don't think the whole, "hey, he found out he knocked Lois up," was very in-character. "Oh, but they slept together in Superman II." I didn't think THAT was so in-character either, especially when he wiped her mind clean. Superman Returns is worse, though, because whether or not we're supposed to think that the spooning scene in SII was where Jason was conceived; they didn't have to go there, and could've written a better story.
I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, this was all the product of mind-control and in Superman Returns, we're supposed to take that as what the character would do, even as he was advertised as a "Christ figure." In both cases, the lurid subtext comes from the writers (apparently) just not thinking.
Okay, I'll admit it. I had heard of there being this story of Superman and Big Barda doing..ahem..."adult entertainment" together. I never recalled ever actually reading the comic, though, and I half-believed it to be something along the lines of the "Cow Level" in the original Diablo.
Now I know it is real, and I have to confess, I'm a little ashamed of the cavalier attitude I've had toward the "story idea" these issues use.
When I first heard of this tale, it sounded more like a fan-fic than something that would actually make it into an actual issue (much less stretch through two). It still does. What I am really sorry about is how casually I reacted to the concept. I thought of it in terms of something along the lines of badly-done fan-service.
Instead, you have shown that, looking closer, this is down-right wrong on many levels, the greatest being the way in down-plays the level of physical, mental, and emotional assault on both Superman and, especially, Big Barda.
John Byrne has done some great things, such as Man of Steel. Unfortunately, it appears he can slip badly. I seem to recall stories of him retaliating against an editorial decision while on "Avengers" by drawing a page with the Scarlet Witch forcing herself graphically upon a helpless Wonder Man. I am beginning to wonder if there is perhaps a pattern, though I don't think I have the stomach to find out.
In any case, thanks for the thought-provoking couple of episodes.
"don't think it was in character for Superman to fly off for five years."
1989's "Exile," from the comic books, had Superman flying away from Earth never to return because he didn't want to live with the responsibility of killing an alternate universe General Zod and was convinced he was "too dangerous" to live among humans. The entire story was built around Superman running away from his responsibilities and eventually getting called on it. In SUPERMAN RETURNS? He gets word of possible Kryptonian survivors and goes looking for them, and in prior comic books and comics went exploring Krypton's ruins for survivors. Further, he locked himself away in the Fortress for over 10 years in KINGDOM COME when humanity decided they liked bloodthirsty antiheroes better, so vanishing for years on end is nothing new.
Sorry but Superman's actions in the film were completely in character. I would expect him to go looking for surviving Kryptonians if given reason to believe they were out there. If anything, "Exile" was the story that was out of character for him.
"I also don't think the whole, 'hey, he found out he knocked Lois up,' was very in-character."
SON OF SUPERMAN, anyone? Same thing. It's been done, and was cited by many as the obvious source of the movie main plot point.
You want to talk out of character? How about Lois cheating on him with Jeb Friedman in the mid-'90s (confirmed by then-artist Ron Frenz at the 2009 Motor City Con) and emotionally abusing him on and off for years on end in the comics to the point where fans took to calling her "Lois Lane: Superbitch"? Or Superman being such a weak-willed doormat that he takes the abuse without even a peep, and flies into hysterical blubbering fits whenever a bad guy kidnaps Lois ("Infestation," from 2001)? Or Superman being incapable of even zipping his boots without having Lois around? This is stuff the comics have devoted years to, and I can't imagine anything being more out of character than Superman being a perpetual victim.
Again, SUPERMAN RETURNS failed in execution, not in concept. The comics have desecrated and humiliated him far worse, anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been reading them.
Judging by how the "Death" and "Return of Superman" were written, it seems that constant monologues were a regular thing in 80s and 90s comics. Just goes to show that comic book writers were watching too many bloody soap operas!
No, GreenJeans, actually, my opinion is NOT wrong.
Exile: Completely different. He was going through a breakdown, turning into the vigilante Gangbuster. He was hurting others.
The "he was doing it to save Kryptonians who were stranded on Krypton," excuse: I really don't remember him saying that in the film itself, but even if that were the case, it makes no sense. How could they survive for thirty years or more and if you have a good answer for that, maybe they don't need saving. Plus, was he just gonna fly them back in that tiny vessel?
Oh. And wouldn't he tell Lois?
The "Lois = Superbitch" stuff: The artist OPINED that "she was cheating with him... at-least in her mind," or something. And I also wouldn't be surprised if your definition of "verbal abuse," was being a stereotypical nagging wife.
And WITH ALL THAT, a) the comics--given that this is still in the aftermath of a reboot--can get it wrong, and b) Superman "being the perpetual victim" is more in character than him being a deadbeat dad!
Son of Superman: So because some non-canon graphic novel that I never read did something similar, that justifies SR? Give me a break! I call this the fallacy of the vague comic book precedent.
Blah, blah, blah Kingdom Come:
Same deal, though it has more prestige than SoS and was hinted at being the "future" of the DCU. I mean, it's slightly more justifiable in that it was after Lois died, but the idea that he runs away from everything is also OUT OF CHARACTER.
I don't have a problem with the whole "Superman and Big Barda are mind-controlled to have sex for a porn flick" idea because they are both good guys and friends and it would be kind of interesting to see how it would affect their relationships, considering neither of them was responsible. That being said the execution was just plain bad. It would be logical if Sleez wanted to have two big-name superheroes do nasty just for kicks (after all, there are millions of people who would like to do the same) and profit. His plan to create an army with this money and take revenge on Darkseid, however, makes him a strong candidate for a name "Stupidest Supervillain Ever". I don't think that Big Barda was raped by Sleez. If that was the case, her reaction upon breaking mind control would be not " You'll pay for indignities you made me to suffer" but "I'LL KILL YOU, 'insert the biggest curse word you know'!!!" The worst I can think about is that he made her perform a solo act on a video, which is while humilating as hell is still not as horrific as outright rape. At least I want to think so, because alternative is too disgusting. While Darkseid has always been a sadictic bastard, here he just looks kind of petty. Of course, it must be a pleasure for him to see Mr. Miracle's reaction at his wife being in porn video, but to personally deliver it just to gloat... especially, since it wasn't Darkseid behind this punch to his enemies... He isn't just a god of evil, he is a god of jackassness as well. And apparently he likes earthly porn. It would be much more plausible if this video was discovered by, for example, Jimmy Olsen. I am surprised no one mentioned how bad Mr. Miracle looks in this issue. I mean: the man gets an X-rated tape with his wife for chrissake! Even if there wasn't anything more than her stripping down, his imagination should have told him right away what else they could do to her after turning off the camera. Here he doesn't look particularly worried about it and doesn't try to kill Sleez after bursting into the room instead of bragging how he escaped from his trap. Oh yeah, and it is left totally unexplained just what the hell did these old dying people had to do with Sleez and where did that wierd radiation came from.
This two-part story is terrible. If I wanted to see sexual assault in comics, I'd have read Identity Crisis. What the hell were they thinking when they came up with that idea, anyway?
Action Comics 592 and 593 is the second-worst Superman story I've heard of. The only thing that actually surpasses this . . . sick and twisted and just plain wrong piece of trash is of course Superman at Earth's End.
I just Dc execs had it out for Jack Kirby's work, just knowing that their universe had been tainted by the man who designed much of their main competitor's universe is just too much for DC execs who are die hard fans of their main commodities. If you compare the fourth world characters to the main DC characters, the fourth world heroes (Orion, Mister Miracle, and Big Barda) their costumes are complex and detail heavy, as opposed to DC's big three, who with the exception of Wonder Woman, are very simple in design to the point one can argue they even be seen as bland. Hell, DC's Kirby abuse is not just limited to his Fourth World characters, they also crapped on his pre-Captain America hero Golden Guardian.
Does John Byrne really try to say it wasn't a porno and our minds are in the gutter? Because if that's the case, I would really like to know what was really going on and what on Earth could possibly have inspired the kinds of reactions displayed by the characters that was not porn. All though it would be hilarious if Grossman was actually making them make a cheesy soap opera and everyone reacts so horrified because the acting is so bad. Even then, though, I'd say it was probably a pretty steamy soap opera/movie/totally not porn considering that whole bedroom set thing, so even if we take Byrne at his word and really believe nothing happened ... that's still pretty rapey. And I have no idea what else Barda's "solo act" could possibly be that would elicit such a horrified reaction from Oberon if not ... ugh. This whole thing is just covered in a thick layer of icky.
It's finally happened. I am officially sick of the "previously on" segments with a whole bunch of stupid crap that has nothing to do with the upcoming episode.
ReplyDeleteYou have a kick-ass brother to get you a Tom Servo.
ReplyDeleteIf he had given you two I could see a solution to needing to upgrade Poyo...just change the head on a spare Servo, paint it blue, viola.
As for the comic itself...yeah...the less said about it, the better.
Though being a fan of giant women, finding out Barda has been killed is a heartbreaker.
And yet Byrne denies there is anything wrong with the story, implying readers are gutter minded for getting what he more than implied happened.
ReplyDeleteByrne must really hate Barda, implying that she has weak morals and is not as resistant to hypnotherapy as Scott (on top of the other indignities.) What a jackass.
I just love that descriptor before the video itself, and the title card.
ReplyDeleteThough I must admit, I was expecting you and Mr. Miracle having the exact same look on your face in that one frame.
Nice Tom Servo cameo. Long live MST3K, Rifftrax, and Cinematic Titanic!
ReplyDeleteIf you would excuse me, I'm going to go dunk my head in a bucket of bleach and then take a long, cold shower with my clothes on. Dx
ReplyDeleteYou've reviewed some bad stuff before, Linkara, but this is probably the one comic that outright disgusted me.
This was a really good review. Your points on sexual assault in fiction as well as the points on the site you quoted make very valid points. Although I liked Identity Crisis, I found Sue Dibny's rape at the hands of Doctor Light to be both over the top and unnecesary. Not only that, before Dr. Light got "lit up" by the Spectre, his depictions were that he was pretty much the Glen Quagmire of the super-villain community.
ReplyDeleteI'm interested though how you felt the story as a whole was crap. I imagine it's because of the complete and total Face-Heel Turn of Jean Loring, since it was never established she was guano crazy.
Not my favorite "Previously On", but an interesting set of characters.
ReplyDeleteWhat, they're a creepy film producer named Grossman, and you don't use any footage of Tom Cruise as the creepy film producer named Grossman in "Tropic Thunder"?
ReplyDeleteI suppose it would be hard to find footage of him using any clean language, but it seems like another one of those "missed opportunities.
I'll be sure and check out the link to Girl Wonder, sounds like it has some good storytelling analysis.
Do we ever get an answer to why Superman did not let Big Barda kill Sleze. Did he just want to prevent the 120-year-olds from dieing? Did he just want to prevent the use of lethal force? Why did he protect the guy that would mind force him into making porn?
ReplyDeleteWow, I didn't know this comic existed, and frankly, it's downright offensive. The last thing I wanna see when I read a comic is my super heroes getting raped. Overall great review.
ReplyDeleteGreat review as always Linkara. Wonderful cameos and plot for the 'previously on'. Was really surprised to see a completed Tom Servo sitting around would love to know the story behind you actually having one of those sitting around.
ReplyDeleteAnyway controversially I'm going to have to sadly disagree with you on the use of rape in a story. Yes, in his example it was in bad taste and barely focused on. However, in a properly constructed story of whatever type with it as a focus or extremely important plot point it can be immensely powerful and scarring for characters to deal with as it should be. Yes, the act is reprehensible and evil but having characters work around that while reading something from a very competent author/writer/illustrator can be very interesting indeed. So much so that I think you make a mistake immediately discounting it.
GAHHH, time to increase the budjet on that Industrial strength mind bleach research.
ReplyDeleteThat was awful, an epic insult to Jack Kerby's creation of the new gods. In the hands of a talented writer they would have Barda almost smile, stomp Sleaze into a mud puddle and head home.
Looking back on it I have to ask why was Barda in the Slums in the first place? That's just the start of the rampant plot holes. You tackeld a handful of them here but even from the highlights I could see lots more.
I was even screaming at the screen "Where the hell did you get an arc welder?", "A porno, A PORNO. WHO THE FLYING..." and much more importantly "Did this person know anything about Barda?"
If it wasn't for that previously on segment the whole episode would have been so uncomfortable I'd need a shower after it.
I still think I do.
Once again I have to ask what was the Editor doing, a lot of these DC and marvel Cock ups seem to come about when A:- an editor is trying to be a writer without the experience or skill or B:-out having a power lunch while incompetents slip in behind their back.
Thomas
PS "This Comic Sucks" might not have been the best line. I'm left wondering what other meanings it could have.
Holy crap, how the hell did you get Tom Servo?!?!
ReplyDeleteOh my god!
ReplyDeleteThis is awesome!
It all makes sense now!
Sleaze was all this time actually a self inserted fanfiction writer out to make some smut!
Man, I have been missing those previously on segments you would do, but I'd say this was well worth the wait and completely awesome.
ReplyDeleteAs for the comic ... O.O
Also, DC Universe Cinema Snob must have some intresting episodes.
This is madness! There was nothing on the bread and he still ate it!
ReplyDeleteNo seriously, another great episode, even better than part one.
You were absolutely right that this story should have never gone beyond the sick fantasies of whoever wrote it.
EWWW....just really gross. What was wrong with John Byrne? This is Superman! Why is Superman being hypnotized into porn? Does Byrne has some type of weird Superman/porno fetish? You're right, Linkara, this entire story just raises too many questions that I'd rather never hear the answers. I mean sure, in the 1980's I guess Byrne was trying to treat his audience more like adults and introduce them to more controversial topics in comics than "Oh No! Lex Luthor is building a _______" or "The Joker is _____", but porn?! He and the editor for Action Comics at the time must have been out of their minds. Let's hope that DC writers never try to bring this story back into modern continuity, for all our sakes.
ReplyDeleteCrap; that's what I get for posting before actually finishing the video. My apologies for that.
ReplyDeleteAlso, my god, I never thought that a comic book in a legitimate series with characters such as Big Barda and Superman could EVER sink to levels this low. I know that there are some really creepy people in the industry, as can be evidenced on certain comic covers involving bondage, etc, but DAMN, this story is ridiculous. No wonder they didn't make the comic book cover more relevant to the plot.
AHHHH! Tom Servo!
ReplyDeleteHa, that was just my... Elvis fangirl impression. Yes.
Good gad, how could this comic get written? I try to picture how this went down, and it just don't compute.
You deliver yet again. Nicely done with the backstory. I really want to check out some stuff with Barda now.
I've seen this comic cover on superdickery. The narrator called Superman a "Wife Stealing Dick".
ReplyDeleteI have seen the cover before, and I do like in its Silver Age sense. However, these two reviews really take any fun to be had. You are right, Big Barda got treated like crap throughout it. Sadly, this also brings to mind the infamous arc with Ms. Marvel.
ReplyDeleteAwesome Tom Servo you have there. Looks like the real thing.
And, thanks Cinema Snob for the showing the films you are carrying. Future reviews?
I don't think the re-creation of the New Gods was that bad
ReplyDeleteFor example Grant Morrison's Super Young Team was pretty fun and a nice looks at superheroes outside the US
Wow you have a Tom Servo puppet...That is awesome. If only you could do the voice
ReplyDelete"Anyone who says "bow-chicka-wow-wow" to what's happening in this garbage will be punched in the face"
ReplyDeleteDammit Linkara, you're no fun sometimes.
You show that comic a thing or two!
ReplyDeleteThe reason that I appreciate your righteous indignation in this review is the same reason that I love Lightbringer. You have an admirable, inspirational, uplifting moral compass.
Thanks
Darkside sitting in a comfy chair with a glass of brandy while giving out free porn tapes?
ReplyDeleteYup, Darkside is Hugh Hefner!
John Byrne never had a good handle on Superman, or even a passable one. He gutted a lot of the mythology and richness out of the character in his reboot and left a superficial, bland shell behind. (Compare the borefest that is MAN OF STEEL with Matt Wagner's superlative TRINITY, or even Alan Moore's SUPREME run, and you can see just how lacking Byrne's take really was.) This story, though, was way off the rails even for him. There's no justification for the humiliation everybody suffers here, or for the fact that there was no resolution at all to the story.
ReplyDeleteByrne was always much more suited to Marvel's characters than DC. Methinks he should have just stayed there. Hell, this thing wouldn't be out of place in today's Spider-Man books.
Awesome job Linkara, very amusing episode intro as usual. Totally agree though, this was a VERY icky set, and yet another example of mistreatment of the New Gods...
ReplyDeleteCan't wait for next week though!
I love John Byrne he's awesome. Despite doing this comic
ReplyDeleteYou're right, that was probably the most ill-conceived plot I've ever heard of. Seriously, the whole idea of aliens using the more subversive side of human commerce to finance a retaliation barely makes sense on its own, let alone when pornography is at the heart of it.
ReplyDeleteTom Servo... That may just be the coolest birthday present in history.
... but how's Poyo taking it?
Rape can, in fact, be a viable motivation and plot point, but it is a massively difficult subject to handle without offending someone, and if you do it wrong you could not only completely ruin the story but also your reputation as a writer (see; all the hatred directed at Dominic Deegan for the Orc Rape storyline.) And, most importantly, NEVER EVER EVER RETCON RAPE INTO AN EXISTING CHARACTERS BACKSTORY AND/OR HAVE AN EXISTING CHARACTER RAPE/BE RAPED. EVER. It is a BAD IDEA that will PISS PEOPLE OFF. Case in point, this storyline; I like Superman, and seeing him treated this way makes me impossible angry, enough to really wanna give this guy a good punch in the nose. And if I were more familiar with Big Barda, I'd be even more pissed. You've gotta be really careful using rape as a story element - ever.
ReplyDeleteOn a related note, never ever have a character you want to be likable rape someone and/or have raped someone. Rape is one of those things that crosses the Moral Event Horizon.
Am I crazy or was the 'brother/alternate whatver' cosplaying as Raidou Kuzunoha?
ReplyDeleteMust resist urge.... Does look odd though. Another great review Lewis
ReplyDeleteIs it wrong that I think the highlight of this episode was Tom Servo? :)
ReplyDeletegross comic and about the 4 minute recap....what?
ReplyDeleteGreat to see the return of the "Previously On..." segments...including random guy eating bread.
ReplyDeleteOh, and you pretty much said all that had to be said: implied rape of Big Barda is just plain wrong. You have to wonder what sort of nut Byrne is to force her into that sort of crap...then again he is the writer who had nude pics of She-Hulk as a plot point...heh, my guess is he wanted to do something with Shulkie but respected her too much and did it to Barda instead...yeah, I talk too much of Shulkie don't I? (it's just too obvious to do so with Byrne involved)
And here I have to disagree with you
ReplyDeleteKinoko Nasu frequently uses rape as a plot element in his works, and he is a writer I genuinely respect for his really good story-telling skills and great characterisation
Rape, as a bad thing happening to a major character, creates one of the strongest emotional responds from the reader/viewer, not to mention the sheer psychological devastation it leaves on the victim not comparable with regular physical or psychological torture.
Not to mention that rape simply happens
It's one of the many bad things that can happen to you in this world, and therefore I don't think that fiction (which by itself is a reflection of reality) should be closing it's eyes from it
I'm recommending the 3rd Kara no Kyokai movie - Remaining Sense of Pain
more info on Kiniko Nasu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinoko_Nasu
So... you have at least one major character get raped and another, even bigger character nearly get raped... let me guess, this is never mentioned again, right? *sigh* Because of course this wouldn't have long-term effects on her psyche or anything. Even if her memories are "foggy," the TAPES are still out there; what happens if she ever finds out about it? Or that her husband kept it from her? Or... *sigh again*
ReplyDeleteAnyway, your "previously on" just reminded me how few people I actually follow on the site anymore. Most of the humor went straight over my head. :(
The review itself was good and I agree with what you said. However, I think the "Previously on" segment was twice as long as it should've been and began to feel like a buffer just to make the video review longer.
ReplyDeleteOh, and please don't have some sort of Insano-style villain again with Lupa like it seems like it's foreshadowing in the video. Both you and Spoony have used characters like that in your videos so much that it's really not that funny anymore. It feels like how "Family Matters" overused Urkel because people initally liked him, or how Activision made so many Guitar Hero games that it's no longer a novelty.
First off,
ReplyDeleteLOVED the "previously on..." segment for this vid.
Todd, Lupa, and hey you even had my boy, ThatJewishGuy (demonstrating that even when rough stuff is going down, my people will still eat)!
Now on to...ugh.
Suffice to say, I really loathe Byrne in this. Why is that so many people have issues with Kirby's characters and want to see them humiliated, raped, or destroyed?
Well, excellent work Linkara. Only you could have made this palatable.
Greeeeaaaaattttt..
ReplyDeleteWhen was this made? The 70's?
AUGH. Even the massive amounts of hentai I have does not compare to the amounts of sleaze this comic has. At least they were designed PURELY for sexual arousal.
And THIS... AUGH. Look, I have nothing against the abolishment of the Comics Code, but if the creators of comics are irresponsible, and care for nothing more but exploitation-esque comics where they feature sex, uncensored violence and controversial content purely for the sake of entertainment and money than morality and literature, then by all, THEY DESERVE IT. Augh. On a moralistic level, even Nippon doesn't even stoop to this crap (most of the time, but you know what I mean), and even when it does, there is at least a level of suspension of disbelief and knowing that it is fiction than fact.
Fist of the North Star was bloody, but it was horrific to show the horrors of war and anarchy. The numerous dojinshi I have are sexual in content, but those are non canon and meant to be the kind of stuff that you would keep under your bed out of curiosity.
THIS, THIS, augh. And the fact that Big Barda was based on Kirby's wife, that's like kicking you in the nuts for laughs and laughing at you again for being sterile.
good show as always.
ReplyDeletebest of luck with the move also
Wait, did the porn studio owner make a reference to "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"? Weird, yet appropriate.
ReplyDeleteAnd I heard something a while back about it being canon that Darkseid would crib porn from Earth. I guess no other place in the universe has an equivalent for goatse and tubgirl *ducks under a fist thrown at my head*
Seriously, though, this is a horrific story. I'll admit, I've written a fanfic in the past that had rape as its central conflict, but unlike this pile of crap, it was central to the story due to its place in a crime investigation and its connection to the past of a mm ain character. Oh, and it treats rape as it is: a horrible, despicable act. This story treats rape as just another plot point, just like how writers are using random death and violence in comics, nowadays.
Wow that was just eurrgh. Like someone walking over my grave.
ReplyDeleteI did like the smirk you gave when commenting about Barda's lack of willpower, I could see you planning your revenge on whoever invented that piece of genius.
Also thanks for not using the horrible cover of Maniac released over here (Ireland) 10 years ago. I'm still trying to drown out that memeory.
Wow, that was just wrong. Good episode but now I wish I could unsee it.
ReplyDeleteThe Tom Servo bit was Epic Win!
ReplyDeleteWhat a spectacularly icky unpleasant comic. I'm shocked this issue didn't cause Byrne to be fired on the spot. I sincerely hope future comic creators leave this kind of thing to sleazy (pardon the pun) fanficiton writers in the future.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Seven Soldiers/Infinite Crisis take on the new gods, as I understand it Grant Morrison had some sort of time travel explanation in mind for how his take on the New Gods could co-exist alongside of the Kirby originals, so "Death of the New Gods" was completely pointless and unnecessary. I can kind of see what he was going for with the hopelessness urban decay becoming a analogous to Apokolips.
I always love 2-parters. The "Last time on Atop the Fourth Wall" sketches are hilarious!
ReplyDeletewait. Bums with wielding equipment? Wouldn't they sell it for a meal or booze or something?
ReplyDeleteBut if we say the forbidden words, it'll be a good oppurtunity for "I am a man!" *PUNCH*
ReplyDeleteTom Servo? YOU HAVE TOM SERVO. TOM ... STINKING ... SERVO. #servoenvy
ReplyDeleteI'm so hoping that the Snob finds that porn somewhere.
this is horrible porn
ReplyDeleteMy only theory about how this comic came to be was that the editor was both a Superman/anything female crack fic-er, and didn't care what the story was about as long as it had Superman wiggling around faster than an old washing machine.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, I'll never be able to see Darkseid the same way again. Unless we can fanwank that he's sending his agents to look for porn in order to find Sleezeeeze; hoping, expecting, awaiting the very moment they find a video they can point at and say "Hah, this is totally Sleeze's doing! It's all about dancing!"
ALSO, nice video as usual! Keep it up!
That Tom Servo puppet is one hell of a birthday gift. Lewis, you totally need to make a Three Stooges short with Servo, Pollo and Bear.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm calling it now: Dr. Obscano is the main villain of next year's arc, where it turns out she's a dread space pirate who likes to rob Earth's banks for some reason.
ha ha nice vid back to the previously on :)
ReplyDeletei actually own this comic
Cool review :)
ReplyDeleteWhat? No "Internet Is For Porn" gag? Well, you can't have everything. Excellent review, LLL, can't wait for more.
ReplyDelete(Ooh, first post. Not just on the video, but also my first post on a Linkara vid. Whee!)
Hey Linkara, I just gave you the Zombie Rabbit Award!
ReplyDeletehttp://thestonedhorrorcritic.blogspot.com/2010/08/i-won-zombie-rabbit-award.html
Dude.
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with Seven Soldiers?
Wait... what happened to Mr Grossman (the porn director)? Did he not get any comeuppance?
ReplyDeleteI mean: this is a guy who filmed non-consensual sex between two people who were brainwashed. That's gotta be illegal on several levels, right? But after Mr Miracle turns up we don't see him again, right? (Er... I'm not going to hunt down a copy of this abomination just to check. I don't want to know that badly.)
So what aesop can we get from this story? Not only was rape used as a (very icky) plot point, the villains got away! (Or did they?) That's horrible...
Please tell me I'm wrong and the villains did suffer some kind of karmic punishment. Please?
Great review. What a disgusting comic.
ReplyDeleteThat security system does seem to be... a bit much.
Wait.. did Oberon come in with Mister Miracle, or was he there the entire time? Why didn't he say something?
How would Oberon not recognize Barda? And also, why did everyone feel the need to comment on her makeup?
Ah, Grossman pictures' glory days. Before they changed their name to Golan-Globus.
Why did Darkseid feel the need to give Mister Miracle the tape in person? Did he really have nothing better to do?
Thanks for the girl wonder link. Interesting column.
As for the rape element. I agree that in this case there is absolutely no reason for it to be used. As you point out, Sleez could already form an army of his own. No, the reason for the rape element is just so John Byrne can go "Ooh, aren't I edgy!" and he's not edgy. He's incredibly offensive. And thats coming from a guy who really like John Byrne's work.
That's not to say that there aren't good comics that involve rape. For example, in Sandman we find out that Desire raped Unity Kinkaid while she was asleep for years. But that was different because A) The story doesn't center on the rape, but rather on the effects it has on the dreaming, B) It actually served to logically advance the story, and C) It was the only thing that could take up that space in the story.
Might want to rework your definition of "Immediate" Scott.
When Superman and Barda are talking, Mr. Terrific has an odd look on his face. Like he's completely unaware what happened.
So, if Sleez was keeping the old people alive, does that mean they just finally died a couple years ago when Sleez was killed?
Also, the New Gods becoming "urban" was one of the dumbest things I ever read.
Why do i constantly had to think of the Morlock's trying to force Kitty Pryde into marrying Caliban?
ReplyDeleteWhat's up with deformed sewer dwelling super powered people and their need to do ikky things with good looking female heros?
next, we'll see batman and donna troy!
ReplyDeletebow chicka wow wow!
sorry, i had to say it, punch me in the head next episode Linkara!
I actually got this comic a few years back at Comic-Con. It is both a pride and shame of my collection.
ReplyDeleteHeh, awesome. ^^ Well, the comic isn't, but the review is.
ReplyDeleteReally lived up to my anticipation from when I saw it on the review queue. :)
Hm, I was pondering if one of the reasons for Darkseid exiling Sleez was because he'd already got Desaad in for the God of Perversion role and got rid of the surplus anthropomorphic personification.
That or he realised that someone whose idea of revenge involves raising money from backstreet porn stores to fund an army was kind of stupid.
And Darkseid would know stupid when he sees it, he has to put up with Kalibak on a daily basis.
Can't say that I'd be that suprised if they did raise at least some of the money from the tapes though, considering the (creepy) insertation of superhero-themed strippers (both sexes) in the tie-ins to Black Canary and Green Arrows wedding, I'd think that there'd be some kinda market for the stuff.
Action Comics 594 was awesome though.
ReplyDeleteJust checking this comic was meant to make us feel icky right?
That was. Um.
ReplyDeleteI was glad to see the Tom Servo - it absolutely lived up to expectations and I laughed like a crazy person. The whole Last Time section was fantastic.
TBH, I'm not sure whether to congratulate you on a review well done or apologize that you had to sit through that comic.
Hey Lewis, I thought I would leave some of my thoughts here, both in response to this... thing and to your take on Morrison's versions of the New Gods. I do agree with you that the lacked majesty in these forms, but I think that was deliberate. On one level, it was probably all that a considerably weakened Darkseid could manage after getting killed by Orion. On another, it was the God of Evil's commentary on humanity: he views them as weak and pathetic, and so his reconstituted followers are reduced to twisted caricatures, which might also have something to do with the fact that the human New Gods aren't the originals but what I understand to be golems animated by Darkseid's will and based on his memories of his followers. He viewed them as tools at the best of times, and ultimately disposed of them when they were no longer useful.
ReplyDeleteAs for this little pile of steaming offal, this is the New Gods used badly. Aside from the all-around vile implications of what happened to Barda, it doesn't seem to Darkseid's style. When I think of Darkseid disposing of his enemies, I think of what he did in "Final Crisis"- grind them into as pathetic a husk as possible and then either Omega them or goad them into doing something that brings about their own demise. Above all else, he is a manipulator. Here he just comes across as lazy. And for that matter, Sleez's design was just... bland. At least for me, one of the most interesting things about the human New Gods was how aspects of their grandiose Kirby designs remained: Mokkari's tattoos or Metron's pupils. Sleez has nothing grand: if there had to be a New God who manipulated people on a sexual level, he should have been a Caligula figure: deep purples and reds, long flowing robes, and handsome features in a distinctly "plastic" way; something artificial and supremely disconcerting.
Sorry for the length, it's my first post here.
- Justin Harrison
Oh, that is SICK AND WRONG. If Superboy-Prime is good for anything, I hope his reality-punching made this smear against good taste vanish into nothingness...
ReplyDeleteMy biggest problem with this, aside from the really, really, really sick treatment of Barda as a character, is how badly Sleez is designed. If there absolutely had to be a New God based around sexual manipulation, I would want them to be a Caligula-like figure: long flowing robes in rich colors, a constant lounge and very off features: handsome, but in a way that just does not seem physically possible; eyes asymmetrical and hair looking more like skin than anything. Instead, we get a vague glob that resembles the evil food from Calvin and Hobbes.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I'm going to have to disagree with you about how Morrison handled the New Gods. Yes, their grand nature was stripped from them, but it was a part of the story, and I think it was well-handled. In the case of Darkseid's followers this was particularly interesting. They are not actually Granny Goodness, Glorious Godfrey and Kalibak; they are Darksied's memories of them. This is the God of Evil here, and the most compassionate he ever got was never permanently killing Kailbak. He viewed them as pathetic, and so they came across as exactly that; sniveling, competitive thugs constantly vying for some drip of favor from him. As for Darkseid and Metron, Darkseid was working with effectively no power at the beginning of Final Crisis, to the point where his body was rotting; I choose to think that it was all he could maintain while maintaining his golems as well. Metron is a little trickier, but more than likely his human form was used to hide from Darkseid: he still had access to his power in the form of his Rubik's Cube, and when the time came, he unleashed it.
-Justin Harrison
"My Snob Sense are tingling!"
ReplyDeleteThat was a perfect cameo. While the comics were just plain disgusting...
Sorry Linkara, but there was nothing to say "bow-chicka-wow-wow" over anyway.
ReplyDeleteDarkseid relaxing in someone's home ends up being repeated in a later issue of "Justice League". And of course there was that episodic fail otherwise known as "Countdown" when he paid Mary Marvel a visit. Darkseid seems to make himself at home a lot... makes you wonder why he even bothers to have a throne room.
Dear god, that comic was awful! Seriously, what were they thinking when this was published? I can't beleive you actually read through that Linkara.
ReplyDeleteBut on a lighter note I loved the review and the "Previously on" segement. Where did you get that Tom Servo?
"It's finally happened. I am officially sick of the "previously on" segments with a whole bunch of stupid crap that has nothing to do with the upcoming episode. "
ReplyDelete...I've had a total of five, one of them not even counting as one since it had only one cameo. I haven't had one in over a year. And you're sick of it?
Actually Link, I'm surprised you didn't realize this, but what was happening to Big Barada also bodes just as badly for Superman.
ReplyDeleteSleeze would be just as guilty for sexually assaulting SUPERMAN.
When Supervillians swap stories to scare each other, they tell Joker stories. When they want to swap stories to see who throws up in disgust, they tell Sleeze stories.
Something I'm surprised you never brought up. Superman can FLY (Don't know if Big Barda can, but Supes sure as hell can), and they get taken out by a gravity powered trap door.
ReplyDelete"Tom Servo... That may just be the coolest birthday present in history.
ReplyDelete... but how's Poyo taking it?"
He's not feeling very fresh.
Wow. That comic was worse than I thought.
ReplyDeleteI mean...I knew it was bad, but yeah.
That said, I did enjoy your nice "That's not what the slash ficcers say." joke. :)
Good job reviewing one of the most infamous comics in history.
Also, Uh, did this ever get removed from comic canon? I mean, I don't know how comic canon works, but still.
If Superboy Prime's punching of reality caused this to never happen, wouldn't that mean he did something good?
In closing, thank you for dealing with the bottom of the barrel, and this was only number 5 on the creepiest sex scenes in comics...oye.
OUT of the idea phase? I want to know how it even reached that stage without heavy amounts of liquor or various other substances.
ReplyDeletethe two comics just piss me off that big barda one of dc universes badasses is insulted and derided at every turn in this comic from the implied rape, to nearly being in a porn video with superman, its like the author has no respect for the legacy of Jack kirby at all.
ReplyDelete"Something I'm surprised you never brought up. Superman can FLY (Don't know if Big Barda can, but Supes sure as hell can), and they get taken out by a gravity powered trap door."
ReplyDeleteI let them get away with it since Barda had knocked him unconscious at the time.
How is it possible to have a character who can fly fall into a trap door anyway?
ReplyDelete""It's finally happened. I am officially sick of the "previously on" segments with a whole bunch of stupid crap that has nothing to do with the upcoming episode. "
ReplyDelete...I've had a total of five, one of them not even counting as one since it had only one cameo. I haven't had one in over a year. And you're sick of it? "
My thoughts exactly when I first read that, dude. Personally, I love these previousl on segments. I honastly coudn't wait til this episode for that very reason, which when combined with the dread for what I knew the story was about caused a very conflicting emotion. :S
"...I've had a total of five, one of them not even counting as one since it had only one cameo. I haven't had one in over a year. And you're sick of it?"
ReplyDeleteI'm just completely burnt out on that trope (for lack of a better word). That sort of thing was simultaneously invented and perfected years ago by Family Guy on "Brian Does Hollywood." And now it seems like every time somebody on TGWTG has a multiparter it always has to be that specific style. It comes off less as being creative and more like being "oh, this is a two parter, time to come up with a bunch of random shit!"
I'm just sick of it that's all, and to be honest the review would have flowed alot better if you had just started off with a recap of the previous issue.
Here's a direct link to the post Linkara referenced.
ReplyDeleteTom Servo and Pollo together! That's epic awesome!
ReplyDeleteThis comic was bad! Who thought this was a good idea?
Great video!
I liked Brad's cameos, it's a shame that there aren't any Manimal comics as far as I know. Great video for a not so great comic.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree, off the top of my head I can only think of 1 instance where rape was compelling for a story and only a few more than that where it wasn't detrimental.
ReplyDeletePollo and Tom Servo are a buddy cop movie waiting to happen, which is several layers of awesome, sprinkled on win!
ReplyDelete@Sethery - yeah the potential Avenue Q joke would have been awesome!
I feel very icky after this, it was just wrong! you made it funny, but the topic is still wrong!
But yeah, Sleez's plan should have been put on the list of awful plans, right with the twin clones of Hilter, the Nightcrawler as Pope thing, and the villians plan in SpiderMan & Storm & Cage. Think about it. A New God related character with mind control abilities, takes control of Big Barta and Superman, to make money from making a porno, for the funding of an army, instead of using Superman and Barta as their army, to fight Darkside.
So until the new robot dancing show "You Got Servo'd" debuts, MAKE MINE LINKARA!
John Byrne is just scum. As the story points out, Barda shouldn't have been subject to hypnotherapy and Sleez using a skill like mind-control just to make porn is VERY stupid. Byrne has never had plotholes this big in his stories, which just proves he went out of his way to ignore story logic in the name of degrading Big Barda.
ReplyDeleteJack Kirby hated Byrne, and yet the guy pretend to wonder why Jack hated him so much. My personal theory is Byrne hit on Jack's wife at a party, was spurned and came up with this nasty little piece of work.
i totally disagree with you on the whole new gods thing. i loved what morrison did with the new gods. they fell from grace only to be reborn again as gods (at the end of final crisis)
ReplyDeleteYay, Jews are represented on ATFW!
ReplyDeleteI'm glad I'm not alone in disliking this previously on segment. Usually they are pretty good, but I didn't like this one if only because I can't stand Jewario, Sage, Sad Panda and Todd in The Shadows. But hey, its his show Linkara can do whatever he wants with it.
ReplyDeleteI'm also tired of that Dr INSERT A NAME OF A THATGUYWITHTHEGLASSES MEMBER Insano. . . I mean it was funny, but know is getting sooo old! Its like the Critic says ''remember how funny that joke was the first time... how about using it again!''
ReplyDeleteThe other thing is that I also disagree with the rape thing. . . yes, is used really badly here but as other guy before me said, rape is part of the real world... a ugly part, so we shouldn't deny that exist and it could be use it as a motor to a good story (go and read a manga called Berserk! ) but saying that we shouldn't use it as a plot point just because is wrong just comes off as preachy.
Like we didn't knew that rape is wrong. . .
I mean, I still liked the review, but I have to give my opinion in those matters.
The previously on segment was funny, as the few others you've done were. The Snob's cameo was great, particularly his 'My Cinema Snob sense is tingling.'
ReplyDelete... The comic... Both parts of it... Ugh... I think my biggest problem with it, oddly, is this Sleez character. In the same sort of way you don't like Divatox. He's an alien. Our money should mean diddly squat to the galaxy at large. His method of acquiring said money was also... Problematic. Porn, with actors who are not doing it willingly. As you said, since they kinda brushed it under the rug as soon as it was done, not okay.
"That sort of thing was simultaneously invented and perfected years ago by Family Guy on 'Brian Does Hollywood.' "
ReplyDeleteNope on both accounts. I first saw this trope used on an episode of "The Kids in the Hall" in the early 90's (and it was perfected then and there, IMHO and as with many of their tropes that would be stolen by others).
Onto the comic review:
Ick. I have never, ever seen rape handled well in any medium. But especially not in comics (hence why I left them for so long...till you came around, Linkara.)
As a woman, I've always felt that there was a certain lack of understanding (and for lack of a better term, respect) amongst writers concerning rape of women.
Women, we have quite a few more concerns dealing with rape than men do (pregnancy, uterine damage, social stigma, etc). I am not saying that male rape victims don't experience trauma that is deeper and more painful than most of us can imagine (because they do).
But I am saying that rape is not some issue you can toss onto a woman.
I've worked as a Social Worker for nigh-on 15 years. I worked with people who were brutally victimized sexually, emotionally, and mentally. You cannot understand that unless you've been in their shoes or you've spent much of your life living in their world.
I've had the misfortune of both.
Maybe rape can be handled with respect and with understanding.
But I haven't seen it yet. What I've seen is a bunch of black turtleneck wearing assclowns thinking they are "Edgy" and "Cool" by making most every female characters in comics victims of sexual exploitation and rape and only granting them power when they adopt the roles of the exploiter.
Some will argue that featuring rape is good because it is a "feature of reality and we must face it".
Hey, you know what else is real? Castration with a rusty jigsaw. You know what else is real? Getting your testicles pounded into jelly.
Think about it.
Ugh.
ReplyDeleteThis was such a squicky little comic. Randomly inserting rape into a story does not make it good. It's not a plot device to be throw around all willy nilly for a few issues and then forgotten about. The way the whole thing was handled was just disturbing, and the ending was totally ridiculous. Suddenly Barda and even Superman were just willing to forget about what happened to them for the sake of plot convenience? That is lazy story telling, at the very least.
On a less creepy note, as I'm fairly new to the comic universe I've never heard of Barda before and she seems like an interesting character. Can you maybe point me in the direction of a good series that involves her? Excuse my ignorance.
Been some time since the last "Previously On" segment. Great job as usual. The comic was plain wrong. Big Barda and Superman? What in the world were they smoking to produce this? This is the thing Superboy-Prime and Spiderman should be retconning.
ReplyDelete"Hey, you know what else is real? Castration with a rusty jigsaw. You know what else is real? Getting your testicles pounded into jelly.
ReplyDeleteThink about it."
Done it!
@Jannet_Jazz
ReplyDeletePainful and humiliating castration is already being used allot more than rape, and it's treated even less properl
Great analysis Jannet_Jazz, glad to hear from someone who has worked with victims. I will say there the manga Berzerk, which Benzaie has reviewed, has dealt with the topic in an effective way, taking from the artist's personal experiences.
ReplyDeleteYes, this issue is as utterly wrong as I remember. Ugh.
ReplyDeleteI'm told that John Byrne was told about Jack Kirby's reaction to this story, and Byrne's response was to call the person who told him a liar. I think there's a reason why people say Byrne is a dick.
I do have to quibble about one thing, though. Superman kicking Darkseid's ass is a Post-Crisis thing. It was a VERY different story Pre-Crisis. This is a Post-Crisis story, but since it happened in the late 80's I think it was before Superman could beat Darkseid by singing at him or however Final Crisis ended.
I'm glad that this story has been ignored as far as I can tell. That's how retcons are very quietly administered.
Oh, and the Previously segment was pretty awesome.
Huh. Superman and Barda making a porno. Sounds like a bad X rated fanfic or something. I had always wondered why I had never seen Sleez in any New Gods story I've read when I saw him in countdown, so I was curious about him. Now I wish I had never heard of him. With the exception of Sleez, I really hope DC decides to bring the New Gods back to their former glory. They are some of the most interesting characters for me to read about. Especially Darkseid, Orion, Barda, and Metron. They deserved a far more epic end than they got and must return.
ReplyDelete@Jannet_Jazz
ReplyDeleteEver watched Hard Candy?
I loved the previously on segment. Particularly as I was having toast right as That Jewish Guy came on screen eating his bread. XD it was so "....whoa. Meta." moment. Said in a very 90s kid voice, of course.
ReplyDeletePoor Barda, she got so mistreated in this comic.
Welcome to Atop the Fouth Wall. Where Bad Comics Byrne....
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I'm a little surprised at how you continue to be shocked at Darkseid sitting on bits of furniture.
ReplyDeleteI realize he's supposed to be this huge, malevolent force in the universe, but he does this a lot. I mean a lot.
Mary Marvel's couch...Mr. Miracle's chair...
Did you ever read that issue of Justice League International that showed Darkseid's little getaway space underneath the Apokolips' surface? He was sitting in a chair just like that; reading Mein Kampf.
Darkseid on comfortable furniture is kind of old hat at this point.
It may not add to his aura of evil or make him seem the least bit menacing, but sometimes a guy's just got to sit down. =)
BTW Happy belated birthday.
Beard Face: "Actually Link, I'm surprised you didn't realize this, but what was happening to Big Barada also bodes just as badly for Superman.
ReplyDelete"Sleeze would be just as guilty for sexually assaulting SUPERMAN."
Actually, if I remember correctly, Linkara did say that Sleez was guilty of assaulting both Barda and Supe.
And while I'm not sure if it was before the Kids in the Hall sketch (probably not), I know for certain that episode 70 of Animaniacs (first airdate, per Wiki, 9 September 1995) used the same sort of "Previously on" bit as a cold opener, as a triple-gag that also covered A) not having had any new episodes air in 10 months, and not having made any new material before this in a year and a half, and B) their not being able to use older Animaniacs footage for a couple more months, until the contract with Fox for the first two seasons ran out.
ReplyDeleteFamily Guy has invented very, very little over the years, and perfected far less...
I have nothing to add except that I agree totally and wholeheartedly with Jannet_Jazz's comments on how rape in fiction is, by its nature, exploitative and ignorant to the real-world ramifications of the act itself. I'm glad someone else gets what's so wrong with the "it's good drama/it happens in real life" excuses some people keep throwing around.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking as a John Byrne fan, this is almost as bad as Superman Returns.
ReplyDeleteI love the previously on segments. Hears hoping to see JewWario more often in those! Also, The Jewish Guys' scenes were pretty funny.
ReplyDelete@Mela
ReplyDeleteBut not dealing with the subject is just closing ones eyes before it!
While it's rarely being handled properly and many writers do it just for the sake of being controversial, it definitely IS a topic that SHOULD be dealt with!
And some writers (even if not explore it to the fullest extent) did at least treat the subject with respect.
By making writing about rape a taboo, we may as well ban the topics of genocide and child abuse!
And yet there are several well respected works on those subjects.
I still think that people is to whiny about the rape thing. . . I mean is not like people portrait rape as a positive thing like they do in a lot of Japanese stuff...
ReplyDeleteAlso I know how bad rape is, a really close friend of mine was rape when she was a child and I know that that still haunts her to this day and I'm not resting importance to that. . .
It just bothers me people talking about how wrong is having rape in a story and that we just shouldn't and being all preachy about it...
Rape is something that happens everyday and unless people are glorifying it, I don't see the problem with using it in stories.
Yes, this might actually be the worst comic that has ever been designed for its base premise alone. Period. End of story.
ReplyDeleteI know what people are gonna say; a guy can't argue against something that happens mainly to women or something stupid like that. But dammit, I've done it before, and it's rape for Superman too. Since the culture dictates it to be wrong for all, its wrong for all, even if the culture doesn't point it towards the other way. Yes, I like my ladies-as do we all if we are of that orientation, but gender equality and what is allowed in media is what is at stake here.
Not to mention there are more than enough tropes to use which, while not exactly good ones, are far better than using rape as one. Kidnapping, mind control and attack a superhero, mind control and attack innocent people. It's not hard.
Thank you for tearing this one a new one. Thank you.
The sad thing I just heard is that they actually want to make a Superman parody porno, just like the one recently done with Batman.
ReplyDeleteThis makes me cry.
(And my apologies to Lewis. Apparently putting the RSS feed on my site translates here as a trackback, which should be reserved to actually LINKING to the article.)
I'm just curious. Do you watch porn, Linkara?
ReplyDelete@ShadowWing Tronix
ReplyDeletePorn parodies are ok because they aren't meant to be canon
"I'm just curious. Do you watch porn, Linkara?"
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's a castrate
"I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's a castrate"
ReplyDeleteI'm not. Why the hell would you even suggest it?
Oh, yes, it's because I believe that women should be treated like human beings and that I don't want pornography in my superhero comics. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that's why you think that.
"Speaking as a John Byrne fan, this is almost as bad as Superman Returns."
ReplyDeleteThe fundamental difference being that SUPERMAN RETURNS was 100% in character for most involved (the damn thing took all its plot and design point from all over the mythology -- including Elseworlds) and was handled ineptly, whereas nothing whatsoever in this comic was remotely in character for anybody and was morally bankrupt.
Sorry, but RETURNS is the lesser of the two evils. That movie was merely half-assed. Byrne was way out of line here beyond any of the relatively minor flubs of the movie.
"Painful and humiliating castration is already being used allot more than rape, and it's treated even less properly."
ReplyDeleteYep. How is it used? To illustrate the horrific conditions and exploitative measures that can befall a male in a society, thus bringing into stark relief the ramifications of the event for the victim, their family, and their lifestyle?
No. It's a punchline. A sick joke. A simple case of exploitation just to get a rise out of the audience.
It isn't treated less properly than rape. It's the same honkin' problem.
I'm not asking people to shy away from the subject. People do need to talk about this. People do need to talk about the horrors of sexual exploitation.
The problem is that no one seems to have the stones to cover the subject with the delicacy and depth that it deserves.
When a superhero dies, there's a funeral, there are ramifications, the loss of a life is handled as a deep, soul-rending loss.
When a woman is raped, it just boosts the male hero into action for a few issues and then we all forget it. When a man is raped in comics,it's used as a sight gag. "Oh ho! Isn't that funny that a man is being violated against his will? Hyuck! Hyuck!"
You can mask it as "art" or "social commentary" all you like. But unless it has depth and treats the subject well and with the respect it deserves, then it's just crap done for the sake of crap or at worst pornography for misogynistic losers.
yup, no sense of humour
ReplyDeletebut seriously
I know you already addressed this in an earlier video, but most of the time it really comes off as if you find any implication of sex (whether consensual or not) to be revolting
As if sex existed only as a mean of humiliating women
Yes, I do find some of the depictions in comics to be ridiculous, but I usually just laugh at them and go along with it.
Honestly, I wouldn't react to Superman running around in a speedo any differently
- in fact as someone who has some experience with manga, I had my share of male characters in clothes that barely hid anything
(Akio Ohtori, I'm looking at you!)
However you seem to fly into an immediate rage even at stuff tat could be considered passable (for example Wonder Woman's new costume which in my opinion is far more acceptable than what she usually wears - no matter how tight the pants may look)
You always talk about sex only in the most negative way and often you seem to be trying to make people be ashamed of their own sexuality!
Deep breaths...deep breaths....
ReplyDeleteFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!
This is worse then I feared. This was just sick. Why on Earth would you do this to two heroes?
Byrne must have really had it out for Kirby.
As an aside, let it go, Linkara. The closest thing these idiots have been to a woman was getting pepper sprayed. Don't let it bug you.
"yup, no sense of humour "
ReplyDeleteNo, I just didn't think it was funny.
"but seriously
I know you already addressed this in an earlier video, but most of the time it really comes off as if you find any implication of sex (whether consensual or not) to be revolting
As if sex existed only as a mean of humiliating women "
When my show is about bad comic books, of course it's going to feature examples of sex and sexuality used in negative purposes. The nudity in SCI-Spy is unnecessary, the nudity and sex in the Dark Knight Strikes Again is unnecessary and immature. The situation depicted in this comic is disgusting and wretching, made all the worse that it DOESN'T realize that this has happened.
I have never stated sex is revolting. I have never said that sex is bad. You are seeing patterns in things that are not there. Sex is good. Sex is awesome. Sex is healthy.
Sex in THESE COMICS is what is depicted badly.
"Yes, I do find some of the depictions in comics to be ridiculous, but I usually just laugh at them and go along with it.
Honestly, I wouldn't react to Superman running around in a speedo any differently
- in fact as someone who has some experience with manga, I had my share of male characters in clothes that barely hid anything
(Akio Ohtori, I'm looking at you!)"
Good for you. I'm not you. I do not laugh and "go along with it." I expect better from creators who are supposed to know what they're doing. I am a critic. I criticize, I nitpick, and I deconstruct. I call bad writing when I see it.
"However you seem to fly into an immediate rage even at stuff tat could be considered passable (for example Wonder Woman's new costume which in my opinion is far more acceptable than what she usually wears - no matter how tight the pants may look)"
I did not "fly into a rage" at the new costume. People continually asked me what my thoughts on it were (when I never actually planned on ever really bringing it up), so I GAVE people my opinion.
"You always talk about sex only in the most negative way and often you seem to be trying to make people be ashamed of their own sexuality!"
How?
"You always talk about sex only in the most negative way and often you seem to be trying to make people be ashamed of their own sexuality!"
ReplyDeleteNo. it seems to me, that he only talks negatively about sexual exploitation. The objectification of people as mere sexual units. The reducing of deep emotional and physical conditions as mere consumer product. Not sexuality in general.
I'd say the only people he's to make "ashamed" are those who have it coming.
@Jannet_Jazz
ReplyDeleteactually, that was actually my point as well
It's not the subject matter that is bad, it's the way it is being used.
This comic was a good example of how not to do it.
You talk about the rape of a female character just being used to motivate the male character.
But what if it serves as motivation for a female character?
I'm not sure if this is a good example, but it is at least from one of the more competent writers.
In "Remaining Sense of Pain" , the third movie in the Kara no Kyoukai series
While the main plot is in it's most base form just a story of vengeance, a rape-victim taking brutal retribution on her tormentors while the protagonists (basically private investigators) follow her trail, the depiction of the subject itself was given a degree of attention.
Fujino wasn't your typical vengeful antagonist, throughout the movie she was depicted as a mentally scarred and traumatised person for whom the act of vengeance only provided temporary relief, yet she latched-on to it as the only thing she was left.
Not to mention the constant presence of physical pain she experiences throughout the course of the movie and which is even a plot-point, alto in a different way than one would expect.
By the end of the movie she turns around realising that she still has things to live for besides plain vengeance and is horrified that she may have thrown it all away just to get a momentary relief of her pain.
Yet is doesn't come off as overt preachy
Once again, not sure if it's the best example, but it was one of the instances when this subject left an actual impact on me as a viewer while it didn't feel unnecessary.
Who knew comics were that dirty? Though Superman's "moral fiber" has decreased over the years (i.e. Smallville).
ReplyDeleteJanet_Jazz
ReplyDelete'' When a woman is raped, it just boosts the male hero into action for a few issues and then we all forget it. When a man is raped in comics,it's used as a sight gag. "Oh ho! Isn't that funny that a man is being violated against his will? Hyuck! Hyuck!" ''
Yeah, this is a case when a person reads a story that goes that way anf thinks that EVERY single story within that subject goes the same way...
There are plenty of stories when the guy is raped and they are not doing it for the laughs... Hell I can't even recall one good story in which they do that!
Go and watch American Story X, read Berserk or Seekers, they have good examples of that . . .
And I'm sorry that a guy being castrated is not use it in a serious way in a story, even if I don't wish that to another man, it can be helped... just the idea could be funny.
Not to mention that that would be torture, not rape.
And I kind of have to agree with that Anonymous guy. . . Link, you sometimes sound like if a man liking a woman's body was a sick tough! I can remember that review of The Spirit that you did with... Sage? Don't remember in which you kind of insulted the other guy for liking the naked girl that was in the movie telling him '' What are you?? Frank Miller?? '' or something like that. . .
I know that the nudity wasn't necessary in the movie, but I don't see whats wrong with a man liking that... I mean
Also you didn't seem to be bothered with the fan service in the Power Girl comic, I remember that you said that it was because it was used for laughs ( Yeah, Power Girl running naked... hilarious )
Bu that comic was filled with fanservice! Like the constant close ups to power girl's breasts, Terra fighting almost in underwear, Power Girl and Terra using a incredible small bikini for no reason. . . unless you call that comedy too. . .
( yeah I know that this has almost nothing to do with the Big Barda rape comic, but I always wanted to point that out... that and that the girl in that radio show its kind of an hypocrite. . . I still remember her calling a guy stupid because he didn't wanted to have sex with her girlfriend so he can go to play warhammer with his friends...because a man not wanting to have sex is weird! he must be gay or something! )
Wow. You know, I've never gotten 'anti-comics-feminist' bingo card before. Have always wanted to, though.
ReplyDeletehttp://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=66
*crosses off the 'but rape happens in real life too' square*
But joking aside. You should read (and I mean, really read) the article.
"When a woman is raped, it just boosts the male hero into action for a few issues and then we all forget it. When a man is raped in comics,it's used as a sight gag. 'Oh ho! Isn't that funny that a man is being violated against his will? Hyuck! Hyuck!'"
ReplyDeleteWhile I will concede to this being true a lot of the time (i.e. the entirety of the movie "Teeth"), I can think of one example where it wasn't used as a sight gag. Alan Moore's "Miracleman" run.
"Kid Marvelman lurks within Johnny's mind, trying to tempt him into once more saying the word and allowing the mad superhuman to re-emerge. Johnny gives in at last when he was about to be raped by a group of older boys at a group home. Free again, Kid Marvelman butchers Johnny's rapists, then moves on to everyone else in the facility."
While it is still part of the trope of "rape causing the victim to take action," it's not written to be funny. It's written to be horrific. The events that follow are horrific as well. Could it be written better, say, without the rape? Yes, I think so. Others will disagree.
While it isn't really "better" to say, "at least it isn't funny," there are fiction writers who take males being violated seriously.
As for the topic of using rape in fiction, as much as I hate to do this, I'm throwing my opinion into the ring. I just wrote a blog entry on my art blog if anyone does want to read it, but I'm going to paraphrase it here. It's going to be a touchy subject for someone no matter who writes it. A rape survivor could write a story, and there's a good chance that someone will be offended.
Does that mean we should stop using it in fictional settings? No. The "House" episode "One Day, One Room" is about House taking care of a female patient who was raped, impregnated by it, and also contracted Chlamydia. I won't spoil the episode, but it is one of the best written episodes of the show that I've seen.
As an aspiring web comic writer/artist, one of my projects is to do a web comic that is mainly drama, but is a fictionalized "shadow" of my life. One of the main characters in it is based off of a friend I've known for 20 years. She works as a counselor for rape survivors and even organizes a survivor group. Two months ago, she, herself, was raped. She calmed me down (I wanted to beat the hell out of the guy who did it, to say the least), and while she still has to live with it, she lives her life like she did before.
I was amazed when she actually requested me to write it into my comic. It wasn't for shock value, but because how she grew from it, as well as me and my friends. She has confidence that I'll make it about the survival, not the shock value.
Mostly, when it's done, it's either for shock value, or it's under played. But, I do think that rape has been written into some fiction very well. Think about it, would Laurie Juspeczyk be the second Silk Specter if her mother wasn't almost raped by the Comedian? Would Olivia Benson be an SVU detective if she wasn't the product of rape?
In the case of this comic, though, um... the story wasn't necessary.
"Go and watch American Story X, read Berserk or Seekers, they have good examples of that . . ."
ReplyDeleteExcept for Seekers, been there done that:
"Berserk"
This is when I tried to get into Japanese comics and I got sick of the stuff. The premise was interesting. But it went no where. The women after being raped were either reduced to useless objects or became sub-human, and the main character, Guts who is this tortured soul who was brutally sexually exploited, really doesn't do anything with that motivation or trauma except slash things apart and fail at diplomacy like your usual Byronic-style hero.
"American History X"
Okay, I admit this was actually an interesting idea: demonstrate that the skinheads would easily turn on their own. Hate is all consuming and that in the end no one wins. Good Aesop.
The problem is that the rape itself was just a single event and then we forget about it four minutes later. No introspection. No scenes of Derek waking up screaming or trying to make sense of the horror. No attempts to get into the minds of the rapists. Nothing.
"And I'm sorry that a guy being castrated is not use it in a serious way in a story, even if I don't wish that to another man, it can be helped... just the idea could be funny."
I'm sure that those poor souls in Sudan, China, and much of the Middle East who have experienced that don't share your detached amusement.
"Not to mention that that would be torture, not rape."
Wrong. Castration is more than simply the removal of an organ. It is an expression of utter sexual dominance. It is, much like rape, a matter of power and control. It is no less sexual, no less a violation than rape.
I suggest you read, "Male victims of sexual assault" by King and Mezey.
------------------
@ Window Keeper:
"I was amazed when she actually requested me to write it into my comic. It wasn't for shock value, but because how she grew from it, as well as me and my friends. She has confidence that I'll make it about the survival, not the shock value."
Good, I'd love to read it. If the subject is handled well and in a well-rounded fashion, then I don't mind. In fact, that'd be a good thing.
(Linkara, I think the internet gremlins ate my last post. So I'll try again.)
ReplyDelete"Go and watch American Story X, read Berserk or Seekers, they have good examples of that . . . "
Did not see Seekers but I did watch AHX and read Berserk:
Beserk:
Women get raped and become objects or damsels to be rescued or are reduced to subhuman states. Guts suffers sexual exploitation as a child and there is no effect on his present state. It's just one more indignity, just one more crime that fuels his murderous rampages and his inability to use diplomacy. He's your standard Byronic-style hero, a leaky faucet of testosterone who every female wants to have sex with even at the expense of themselves.
American History X:
A good attempt and message, IE: the view of skinheads turning on their own and hatred consuming itself, etc.
But there is very little expression of the event in the character of Derek. Does he wake up screaming? Does it haunt his days and nights? Where is the trauma? Where is the survival? IT occurs in one scene and then in five minutes he's all better, just a little miffed.
"And I'm sorry that a guy being castrated is not use it in a serious way in a story, even if I don't wish that to another man, it can be helped... just the idea could be funny."
Yeah, I think the poor souls in Sudan, China, and parts of the Middle East don't share your detached amusement.
"Not to mention that that would be torture, not rape."
Wrong. Castration is an act of power and control framed within a mindset of sexual dominance via elimination. It is no less sexual, no less a violation than rape is.
I suggest you read "Male victims of Sexual Assault" by Mezey and King.
"I was amazed when she actually requested me to write it into my comic. It wasn't for shock value, but because how she grew from it, as well as me and my friends. She has confidence that I'll make it about the survival, not the shock value."
ReplyDeleteGood. I'd be glad to read it and if it handles the events and particulars well, I'd even recommend your work.
I...
ReplyDeleteWell actually I'm not really in a rage about this.
Yes, this is a stupid premise and it should never have been done, but the badness is rather pedistrian. They may have been handed an awful premise, but they did a workmanlike job with it, and so the end result is less "Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, you're insane!" and more "Meh."
The plan is not as crazy as it sounds, there's a lot of money in the porn industry, and Superman's lost to Darkseid too, so having some backup is probably worthwhile. The real problem, I suspect, would be authenticating that these are really Superman and Big Barda and not impersonators.
The story doesn't really revel in its premise or even actually explore it, it just plods from one station of it to another while making as little reference to the thing as possible. It doesn't want to deal with its story. It doesn't want to talk about what it did today, thank you. And so I can't really get upset here; the comic's just as ashamed of this as anyone. I'll send it to its room without dinner but it already knows it did wrong.
Oh, porn does raw seething emotion too, but not in the same sense. (And rather less often then it probably should. I don't think we're watching porn for tender, directors!)
Actually, what gets me about this is the implication that sex is veddy, veddy badddddd and amoral and someone as moral as Superman would never have sex! (I'll accept the dig at Barda as instead an unpalatable truth; she's an ex-Fury and has been down the amoral road before. Superman hasn't. Remembered behaviors are easier than learning new ones.) Basically, getting paid for something you enjoy and that's a fundemental biological urge is EVVVVVILLL, says John Byrne. Casual sex is bad! Sex between people who aren't married is bad! Grrrrr sex!
Yeah. You do that Mister Byrne. You do that.
Wow Linkara. I'm so effing jealous that you have a Tom Servo puppet!!
ReplyDeleteJannet_Jazz
ReplyDeleteHow about the scene of Derek crying after it happened? Also just because people react to rape some ways that doesn't mean that everybody has to have the same reactions . . . they could have handle the thing better, but it would have made the movie worse just focusing in the rape all of a sudden for the rest of the film. . . still is not the worst example of rape ever, but having him on prison you can kind of expect that happen to him
The thing about castration being funny, I'm not saying that that happening is funny. . . it has to be horrible... but come on! People talking about it would find it funny, I know that it shouldn't be and that is childish, but it can't be helped.
Its like in that Batman comic that Kevin Smith did in which he had a ''bladder spasm'' because he used plastic explosives for the first time in his life in year one and he didn't knew about explosions and he was in the range of the explosion and you know. . . Its a realistic thing to happen, but still people were still really piss off ( he,he ! ) about it because Batman pissing himself is ridiculous and un-heroic.
And about Berserk, I think that the effect on rape of the main guy is played out during the whole thing. . . he doesn't like to be touched, he is really angry all the time, he cries about it and has a lot of issues because of that
because he hates being weak and that was the time when he was weak and couldn't do anything about it. . . but maybe you ( and me to ) have to read more of the story.
You know, i read about this on facebook one time and thought my friends were joking. Now i wish they were! What the hell was byrne thinking with this piece of uttershit?
ReplyDeleteDo know what Byrne's answer to this ENTIRE storyline was? "If you want it to be a porno it was. if you don't it wasn't!" That's not even covering half the questions! Why were the old people having trouble? Why did Sleeze pick Barda out of all to be his sex slave? Do you want to know the really annoying thing? What if this had been Lois Lane, huh? Think about it. She wasn't goody do gooder in MoS, and hadn't been trained by Granny Goodness. This may seem strange for me saying this, but Barda is easily a stand in for any other female character Byrne has ever written in this story. Honestly, think about how much more offensive it would be.
Suddenly noticed something. Sleez (what an appropriate name!) talks about the "depravity buried deep in the core of every human soul". Um, last time I checked, neither Superman nor Big Barda are exactly human--he's a Kryptonian and she's a New God!
ReplyDeleteTotally LOVE the Tom Servo you have there Linkara! I built my own Servo about six years ago and he's been a fun conversation piece ever since. Although seeing how nice and pristine your own Servo looks reminds me of the hard fact I need to get some replacement parts in and fix my poor Servo up; years of traveling across the East Coast to various conventions and moving have been rough on him over the years. I've lost count of how many times his dome has fallen off and gotten cracked or broken, but it's the love of keeping him up and the fond memories of the show that make it worth it! That and dressing him up in funny costumes; picture related, here's my own Servo at Dragoncon last year dressed up as the Comedian from Watchmen. http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/3906/2317645.jpg
ReplyDelete" built my own Servo about six years ago and he's been a fun conversation piece ever since."
ReplyDeleteHey, yours looks absolutely awesome and I give you a heck of a lot more credit - you actually BUILT your Servo. While I'm fond of the one my brother bought for me, you still deserve a lot of credit for actually putting together the pieces and making it, so immense kudos to you and Tom Blake!
Huh. You know, I was honestly surprised you did not make the "Angels do not need Comfy Chairs/I got him to say COMFY CHAIR!" joke.
ReplyDelete"they could have handle the thing better"
ReplyDeleteAh, then we agree on the main point then: it could have been handled better. That's all I've been saying.
You can feature rape. But you need to handle it realistically and with a mind on consequences.
He wakes up crying....so? What else? What about the other universal features of post-traumatic stress?
I'm not saying it was bad movie. Heck, any film that shows the consequences of blind hate is god in my book. But the fact is, it simply presented an element, and then tossed it away.
"People talking about it would find it funny, I know that it shouldn't be and that is childish, but it can't be helped."
Yes, it can be helped. Empathy, understanding the pain of others and the horrible consequences of being a victim of such trauma. Like I said, read the book I recommended.
Maybe you'll change your mind. Maybe you won't. But at the very least, you'll understand why people like me who work with victims (as well as the victims themselves) get so tense about it.
As for Berserk,
I'll grant you that Guts' adverse reaction to intimate contact and his crying may be Miura's attempt to explore his past as a victim of sexual trauma. But that's the thing: is it? If you lived in a world whose basic message is, "Life sucks and then you get killed for five panels", if you lived in a world where EVERYBODY is a raging prick, where EVERYTHING wants you dead (and/or wants to do unspeakable things to your corpse), a world where no matter what demographic you fall in, most EVERYONE in your cohort wants to perform acts of unspeakable evil...in such a world, wouldn't you be just tad nervous about getting close to anyone?
Great review Linkara. Also, awesome Tom Servo gift. Lucky dawg.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised at how many people keep asking why this story happened. The answer to that is pretty simple; because it can.
We've been reading comics about these characters for a LONG time, so sometimes storylines get really dry. Every once in a while authors will try something new.
Sometimes it works out, like how Spawn did the hero thing a little differently.
Sometimes, like in this comic, it just doesn't pan out. Too many plot holes and ill conceived ideas.
I'm also surprised at how many people are upset over something that is implied.
Never in the comic(from what was shown in the review; i haven't read the comic) do they say that rape or sex ever happened.
Barda's "days of indignity" is such a broad statement because we don't really know what might hurt her dignity. For all we know she was forced to sing for 2 days, or even dance and that dancing is a no-no in her culture.
But, because of how she is dressed, and the way things are presented, we assume it's sexual.
And nothing happened between sups and barda beyond a little making out. The director and Miracle Man saw to that.
That being said, I don't fault anyone for the way they feel on the subject because it's a sensitive topic. As I said, I'm just a little surprised at the reaction and wanted to state that.
Cheers!
was there a point to all this? was there a reason why the writer had to do this to three established characters?
ReplyDelete...other than sheer malice, I mean.
It was great, but I must say,
ReplyDeleteI'm dissapointed
Not a single mexican Carwash Joke?
Well, at least this comic very indirectly led to something good: I've finally found a couple DC characters who actually intrigue me, in Miracle Man and Big Barda. (Not saying "ZOMG THEY SOUND LIKE THE BEST SUPERHEROES EVER," but they at least sound like they're worth looking into.) Well, okay, admittedly I'm interested in Blue Beetle too, since you recommended that -- but I can't find it in the shops around here. Boo!
ReplyDeleteOther than that, this comic is absolutely terrible, but you are awesome.
Also, love the return of "Darksyde sitting on someone's couch" -- for some reason, I like thinking of him as a guy who goes around chilling out on superheroes' couches for fun. That's probably because I haven't read any DC comics yet, and thus don't know him as a serious character, haha.
Wow. That was disturbing indeed.
ReplyDeleteI've yet to actually read any John Byrne stuff, but if this is how he routinely treats his female characters... I'm not sure I want to.
But again, Linkara... your criticism of "Darkseid sitting on a couch what the hell" is just waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. Even back when Kirby was writing him, Darkseid was always doing things like that.
I have in my hands the fifth issue of the Super Powers mini-series, written and drawn by the King himself. Do you know what Darkseid does in it? Casually ride down a public elevator, even sharing it with a meek DC Comics inker who's complaining about his workload. And he doesn't even Omega Beam the poor fella, he just gives him a curious stare.
Here's Darkseid under Jack Kirby's penmanship, working at McDonald's:
http://www.currion.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/McDarkseid.png
And again, Kirby's Darkseid... allows himself to be mugged just for the heck of it:
http://img230.imageshack.us/f/322507497acbded9ff7olj0.jpg/
And here's Darkseid chilling on an armchair, reading Mein Kamph:
http://team-bates.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/darkseidchillsout.jpg
So yeah... you really need to cut back on the "DARKSEID DOESN'T SIT ON COUCHES RAAAAGE". It's totally in character for him to do so.
"I've yet to actually read any John Byrne stuff, but if this is how he routinely treats his female characters... I'm not sure I want to."
ReplyDeleteDon't do it. There's a site out there that documents in well-researched detail about how Byrne can only write women as either flighty or evil and has a thing for torturing pregnant women. And that's not touching the fact that his art has become increasingly crappy.
"The fundamental difference being that SUPERMAN RETURNS was 100% in character for most involved (the damn thing took all its plot and design point from all over the mythology -- including Elseworlds) and was handled ineptly, whereas nothing whatsoever in this comic was remotely in character for anybody and was morally bankrupt."
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't think it was in character
"The fundamental difference being that SUPERMAN RETURNS was 100% in character for most involved (the damn thing took all its plot and design point from all over the mythology -- including Elseworlds) and was handled ineptly, whereas nothing whatsoever in this comic was remotely in character for anybody and was morally bankrupt."
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was in character for Superman to fly off for five years. I also don't think the whole, "hey, he found out he knocked Lois up," was very in-character. "Oh, but they slept together in Superman II." I didn't think THAT was so in-character either, especially when he wiped her mind clean. Superman Returns is worse, though, because whether or not we're supposed to think that the spooning scene in SII was where Jason was conceived; they didn't have to go there, and could've written a better story.
I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, this was all the product of mind-control and in Superman Returns, we're supposed to take that as what the character would do, even as he was advertised as a "Christ figure." In both cases, the lurid subtext comes from the writers (apparently) just not thinking.
Okay, I'll admit it. I had heard of there being this story of Superman and Big Barda doing..ahem..."adult entertainment" together. I never recalled ever actually reading the comic, though, and I half-believed it to be something along the lines of the "Cow Level" in the original Diablo.
ReplyDeleteNow I know it is real, and I have to confess, I'm a little ashamed of the cavalier attitude I've had toward the "story idea" these issues use.
When I first heard of this tale, it sounded more like a fan-fic than something that would actually make it into an actual issue (much less stretch through two). It still does. What I am really sorry about is how casually I reacted to the concept. I thought of it in terms of something along the lines of badly-done fan-service.
Instead, you have shown that, looking closer, this is down-right wrong on many levels, the greatest being the way in down-plays the level of physical, mental, and emotional assault on both Superman and, especially, Big Barda.
John Byrne has done some great things, such as Man of Steel. Unfortunately, it appears he can slip badly. I seem to recall stories of him retaliating against an editorial decision while on "Avengers" by drawing a page with the Scarlet Witch forcing herself graphically upon a helpless Wonder Man. I am beginning to wonder if there is perhaps a pattern, though I don't think I have the stomach to find out.
In any case, thanks for the thought-provoking couple of episodes.
Bow chicka wow (POW) ouch! :(
ReplyDeleteseriously though how THE HELL DID THIS gotten published?
and john bryne if you come up with some BS excuse I've got a few words for a bryne.
SHUT....THE HEEEEELLLLL....UP!!
good review linkara.
Well this was an interesting issue. Oddly... I enjoyed it.Probably cause I like porn, but also cause that producer guy was funny.
ReplyDeleteI never liked Barda, and seeing ehr brought donw a MUCH needed peg probably helped too.
Still though, while I never liked Barda I have to admit she didn't deserve this.
Can't wait till Monday, and hopefully the comics I want to see get ripped on aren't on your list.
You're still wrong, Frankie.
ReplyDelete"don't think it was in character for Superman to fly off for five years."
1989's "Exile," from the comic books, had Superman flying away from Earth never to return because he didn't want to live with the responsibility of killing an alternate universe General Zod and was convinced he was "too dangerous" to live among humans. The entire story was built around Superman running away from his responsibilities and eventually getting called on it. In SUPERMAN RETURNS? He gets word of possible Kryptonian survivors and goes looking for them, and in prior comic books and comics went exploring Krypton's ruins for survivors. Further, he locked himself away in the Fortress for over 10 years in KINGDOM COME when humanity decided they liked bloodthirsty antiheroes better, so vanishing for years on end is nothing new.
Sorry but Superman's actions in the film were completely in character. I would expect him to go looking for surviving Kryptonians if given reason to believe they were out there. If anything, "Exile" was the story that was out of character for him.
"I also don't think the whole, 'hey, he found out he knocked Lois up,' was very in-character."
SON OF SUPERMAN, anyone? Same thing. It's been done, and was cited by many as the obvious source of the movie main plot point.
You want to talk out of character? How about Lois cheating on him with Jeb Friedman in the mid-'90s (confirmed by then-artist Ron Frenz at the 2009 Motor City Con) and emotionally abusing him on and off for years on end in the comics to the point where fans took to calling her "Lois Lane: Superbitch"? Or Superman being such a weak-willed doormat that he takes the abuse without even a peep, and flies into hysterical blubbering fits whenever a bad guy kidnaps Lois ("Infestation," from 2001)? Or Superman being incapable of even zipping his boots without having Lois around? This is stuff the comics have devoted years to, and I can't imagine anything being more out of character than Superman being a perpetual victim.
Again, SUPERMAN RETURNS failed in execution, not in concept. The comics have desecrated and humiliated him far worse, anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been reading them.
Judging by how the "Death" and "Return of Superman" were written, it seems that constant monologues were a regular thing in 80s and 90s comics. Just goes to show that comic book writers were watching too many bloody soap operas!
ReplyDelete........ I'd pay for a Booster Gold porno. <_<
ReplyDeleteNo, GreenJeans, actually, my opinion is NOT wrong.
ReplyDeleteExile: Completely different. He was going through a breakdown, turning into the vigilante Gangbuster. He was hurting others.
The "he was doing it to save Kryptonians who were stranded on Krypton," excuse: I really don't remember him saying that in the film itself, but even if that were the case, it makes no sense. How could they survive for thirty years or more and if you have a good answer for that, maybe they don't need saving. Plus, was he just gonna fly them back in that tiny vessel?
Oh. And wouldn't he tell Lois?
The "Lois = Superbitch" stuff: The artist OPINED that "she was cheating with him... at-least in her mind," or something. And I also wouldn't be surprised if your definition of "verbal abuse," was being a stereotypical nagging wife.
And WITH ALL THAT, a) the comics--given that this is still in the aftermath of a reboot--can get it wrong, and b) Superman "being the perpetual victim" is more in character than him being a deadbeat dad!
Son of Superman: So because some non-canon graphic novel that I never read did something similar, that justifies SR? Give me a break! I call this the fallacy of the vague comic book precedent.
Blah, blah, blah Kingdom Come:
Same deal, though it has more prestige than SoS and was hinted at being the "future" of the DCU. I mean, it's slightly more justifiable in that it was after Lois died, but the idea that he runs away from everything is also OUT OF CHARACTER.
Yes. I criticized Mark Waid. Ooogabooga!
Superman Returns was a bad idea poorly executed.
He shouldn't be a stalker.
He shouldn't be gone so long.
And he sure as Hell shouldn't be a deadbeat dad.
I don't have a problem with the whole "Superman and Big Barda are mind-controlled to have sex for a porn flick" idea because they are both good guys and friends and it would be kind of interesting to see how it would affect their relationships, considering neither of them was responsible. That being said the execution was just plain bad.
ReplyDeleteIt would be logical if Sleez wanted to have two big-name superheroes do nasty just for kicks (after all, there are millions of people who would like to do the same) and profit. His plan to create an army with this money and take revenge on Darkseid, however, makes him a strong candidate for a name "Stupidest Supervillain Ever".
I don't think that Big Barda was raped by Sleez. If that was the case, her reaction upon breaking mind control would be not " You'll pay for indignities you made me to suffer" but "I'LL KILL YOU, 'insert the biggest curse word you know'!!!" The worst I can think about is that he made her perform a solo act on a video, which is while humilating as hell is still not as horrific as outright rape. At least I want to think so, because alternative is too disgusting.
While Darkseid has always been a sadictic bastard, here he just looks kind of petty. Of course, it must be a pleasure for him to see Mr. Miracle's reaction at his wife being in porn video, but to personally deliver it just to gloat... especially, since it wasn't Darkseid behind this punch to his enemies... He isn't just a god of evil, he is a god of jackassness as well. And apparently he likes earthly porn. It would be much more plausible if this video was discovered by, for example, Jimmy Olsen.
I am surprised no one mentioned how bad Mr. Miracle looks in this issue. I mean: the man gets an X-rated tape with his wife for chrissake! Even if there wasn't anything more than her stripping down, his imagination should have told him right away what else they could do to her after turning off the camera. Here he doesn't look particularly worried about it and doesn't try to kill Sleez after bursting into the room instead of bragging how he escaped from his trap.
Oh yeah, and it is left totally unexplained just what the hell did these old dying people had to do with Sleez and where did that wierd radiation came from.
What, no flashback to "Linking Up With Linkara"?
ReplyDeleteThis two-part story is terrible. If I wanted to see sexual assault in comics, I'd have read Identity Crisis. What the hell were they thinking when they came up with that idea, anyway?
ReplyDeleteAction Comics 592 and 593 is the second-worst Superman story I've heard of. The only thing that actually surpasses this . . . sick and twisted and just plain wrong piece of trash is of course Superman at Earth's End.
As usual, sexual assault is treated incorrectly in a story. I have to agree with Jannet Jazz's points.
ReplyDeleteI just Dc execs had it out for Jack Kirby's work, just knowing that their universe had been tainted by the man who designed much of their main competitor's universe is just too much for DC execs who are die hard fans of their main commodities. If you compare the fourth world characters to the main DC characters, the fourth world heroes (Orion, Mister Miracle, and Big Barda) their costumes are complex and detail heavy, as opposed to DC's big three, who with the exception of Wonder Woman, are very simple in design to the point one can argue they even be seen as bland. Hell, DC's Kirby abuse is not just limited to his Fourth World characters, they also crapped on his pre-Captain America hero Golden Guardian.
ReplyDeleteDoes John Byrne really try to say it wasn't a porno and our minds are in the gutter? Because if that's the case, I would really like to know what was really going on and what on Earth could possibly have inspired the kinds of reactions displayed by the characters that was not porn. All though it would be hilarious if Grossman was actually making them make a cheesy soap opera and everyone reacts so horrified because the acting is so bad. Even then, though, I'd say it was probably a pretty steamy soap opera/movie/totally not porn considering that whole bedroom set thing, so even if we take Byrne at his word and really believe nothing happened ... that's still pretty rapey. And I have no idea what else Barda's "solo act" could possibly be that would elicit such a horrified reaction from Oberon if not ... ugh. This whole thing is just covered in a thick layer of icky.
ReplyDeleteJohn Byrne burn in hell, sick human being. Shame of You
ReplyDelete