So how did this crossover come to be? Plus: answering people's questions and critiques.
With apologies for the sound quality - things just don't always work out perfectly when recording this stuff.
Thursday, February 16, 2012
Star Trek Insurrection Commentary
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33 comments:
"Have you noticed your boobs have firmed up? I know mine have."
Thanks for at least mentioning that scene, Linkara. A compare/contrast between Khan in II vs Insurrection's Boobs scene would have been funny, but alas too little time in an already long review.
I gotta admit, I like listening to you nerd out a little over Star Trek in general, especially The Next Generation, which is what I grew up on.
One of my big big problems is that I don't like that Geordi gains the use of his natural eyes, even temporarily. It felt like a false way to inject the story with some small amount of pathos- he's sacrificing real! sight!
While I know that Geordi wanted to see with his eyes, I resent that THIS is the movie that occurred during. He doesn't want to see with his real eyes because he doesn't like technology, he just wanted to know what it was like to see with his eyes.
What should have been a really beautiful moment for him- even if it was brief- was ruined by the fact that it had anti-technology tones to it, and I resent the hell out of it. Geordi LaForge believed in technology, and using him to make a point in a movie that has such anti-technology themes feels like a betrayal of the character.
Just, augh. There's so many things about this movie, but that annoyed me so much.
hey Linkara I discovered Glenn Greenburg's blog I was thinking perhaps the next time you do a review of the clone saga you can have him on board like you did for the power ranger parody anyway this is his blog name.
http://glenngreenbergsgrumblings.blogspot.com/
One thing that pissed me off in Insurrection was the battle between the Enterprise and the So'na ships.
The Enterprise is a Sovereign class battlecruiser. It's the biggest baddest ship in Starfleet. Strongest shields and strongest weapons.
Why is it having so much trouble with the So'na ships even before the subspace weapon is used?
And why, if those So'na ships are that powerfull, isn't The Enterprise blasted to scrap on approach when Riker makes the ship fart at them?
Don't start about the briar patch. That only affects the warp drive. Combat in Star Trek is at sub light speeds.
Great commentary. I enjoy listening to you discuss the whole thing in a more formal light. Here's my two cents:
-That blue guy (Hars Adislo)was supposed to be symbolic of how technology is cramping people's lives? Wow. Laziest symbolism ever.
-I brought up the fact that the Ba'Ku are never asked to move. SFDebris has the perfect answer: bad writing. If the Ba'Ku were asked, then any answer other than "yes" would have them coming off as selfish douchebags. It's as if the writers knew how lazy their moral argument was so they decided to demonize the So'Na as much as possible.
-Also, you bring up an excellent point about how the Ba'Ku want to stay mainly to give up their immortality.
-I don't think the differences in yours and Doug's reviews were quite as stark until you discussed them. I like both your styles except Doug sometimes relies too much on running gags and overly long gags. And, yes, there is the fact that he FREQUENTLY gets details wrong. Then again, his reviews are more focused on comedy but for a guy who can do excellent critiques ( "Patch Adams" is one of his best), his tendency to miss details especially important ones can be a bit annoying.
One question: what did you mean when you called the nature/nurture issue of Nemesis a "no frickin' duh" issue? Was it too cliched, is that what you meant?
On the "We used to be explorers" line, I get your point about the crew getting into diplomatic situations fairly on a regular basis in the series. However the ratio of exploration focused eps to diplomacy focused eps more or less balanced itself out in the series IMO.
With that quote in the movie it's clearly meant to be tongue in cheek but to me it kind of feels like they're just taunting us with how far away from itself the franchise had gotten by this point.
Though I will admit my bias on that one. When it comes to Trek I'm a TOS and TNG (tv series)guy. I also like movies II,III, and IV.
The later stuff has it's moments but much of it doesn't work for me on the whole. I seem to remember hearing one of the main writers of the DS9/Voyager era had a very cynical view of Roddenberry's vision. Trek without the optimism just seems pointless.
I find it funny how the movie begins with Picard going to a diplomatic event where the Federation is trying to create an alliance with a barely warp capable race, knowing full well that it would make that race an enemy of the Dominion.
Heck, Sisko told the Bajorans not to join the Federation precisely because he knew that it would risk Bajor being destroyed by the Dominion.
Apparently, Picard doesn't care that those gnome aliens with squid faces could be wiped out by the Dominion for their association with the Federation but he's willing to sacrifice his career and the Enterprise to protect a village of 600 people even though moving them could potentially save billions of lives.
"One question: what did you mean when you called the nature/nurture issue of Nemesis a "no frickin' duh" issue? Was it too cliched, is that what you meant?"
Pretty much. The argument put forth is that "If Picard had had Shizon's life, he would have ended up exactly like shinzon." That, to me, is a "no friggin' duh" kind of thing. SFDebris actually got it right that it would have reinforced Roddenberry's vision of humanity if Shinzon had rejected his painful life and embraced the good aspects of humanity, instead it's just "my life sucks, and because my life sucks I'm going to punish everybody else and if you were in my spot you'd do the same thing."
"The later stuff has it's moments but much of it doesn't work for me on the whole. I seem to remember hearing one of the main writers of the DS9/Voyager era had a very cynical view of Roddenberry's vision. Trek without the optimism just seems pointless."
Ira Steven Behr was a Star Trek fan, but he found many of Roddenberry's concepts kind of laughable or wanted to explore the potentially seedy underbelly of it. As Sisko once said, "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." Star Trek was still an optimistic future, but some of Roddenberry's ideas that he had in TNG were just... dumb. For example, he wanted the human characters to never, EVER argue with one another. No conflict was allowed to happen unless they were under alien mind control. Why? Because, in the future, human beings no longer squabble or conflict over ANYTHING. Ever.
Another example? There's an episode, I believe either season 3 or 4 called "The Bonding" where a child's mother, a Starfleet officer, is killed in action. The episode was a focus on the kid having to come to grips with the mother's death while an alien intelligence created a false mother for him out of a feeling of responsibility for killing her and leaving him alone.
Roddenberry, however, objected to the episode. His reasoning? People in the future don't mourn the dead, and that includes children. They simply see death as a part of life and they move on. Even children understand that, according to Roddenberry's vision.
Linkara, those ideas were not dumb, they were outright scary.
Things like "no conflict", "no greed", "no mourning" etc. only can be accomplished, if ones brain is washed or if one has implanted a chip, which purges the "bad emotions"...
And didn't they do a show, under his watch, that told us, that, no matter how evil and twisted our "bad" side can be, it completes us and we need it in order to survive?
The nature / nurture - issue in Nemesis is far more complex.
Scientists of the GOSAT-Study took twins, and they still are not sure, how nature or nurture is responsible for us being us.
The results were round about 50:50.
So - would Picard have led the same life as Shinzon? I dunno, because, like I said, no one knows, what makes us tick.
It could be, that he had become that evil overlord.
Greets
Cal
@Lewis Lovhaug
I think part of my problem there is that if there is the heavy focus on the seedy underbelly then it kind of starts to get into "everything you know is a lie" territory which kind of undercuts the whole bright future thing for me even though I don't view the Trek future as pristine and flawless, if that makes sense.
I remember "The Bonding". I can actually see a bit of where Roddenberry was coming from but it does seem a little extreme especially in regards to a child simply wouldn't have yet developed an outlook on the subject.
Besides if people are so invulnerable psychologically then why does the ship have a counselor?
What I want to know is, WHY does it require ten years of exposure to the planet's energy to recover from their affliction?
I mean, Geordi grew a working set of eyes in a relatively short period of time. Heck, Geordi was born blind so the planet's energy gave sight to a person who never had it in the first place. If it can do that, why can't it heal the So'na quickly?
You know... I had some more thoughts, Linkara. Particularly a bit of fan-wank. I wonder if the "radiation" in the planet's rings may have had some-kind-of "hippie effect" on the Baku? As you noted in the review they all seem bored, laid back and un-emotional. Anij admits that she's not "gotten around to" learning to swim in 300 years and in that period of time they've seemingly not had any kind of population growth (consider in the same period of time humanity increased it population by 7x.) Maybe in the long run it was a GOOD thing the Federation didn't get the radiation. They may have became pacifist themselves and stopped caring about the war.
Cool Idea, Trekker.
By the way, Linkara, somehow something's wrong with Blip. All videos I wanted to watch, just show a black screen, the writing "advertisement playing" at the bottom and nothing happening at all.
Is that the new ad, advertising "absolutely nothing, now at sale for 4,99"? or is Blip kaputt, damaged?
Greets
Cal
Say, what are your thoughts on First Contact, Linkara.
I know I don't like it that much. For one, the Borg Queen is a bad idea, as it gives the collective a big bulls-eye. Destroy her, and the whole collective falls apart. But what I hated most was the portrayal of Cochrane. Everything about him in that movie is at odds with the way he was in Metamorphosis, down to his appearance. If feels like the Vulcans are now taking pity on us puny humans.
Time to nitpick the nitpicker.
I can think of a reason why you would want a device to control the water level in your artificial lake.
Flood control. You're going to need a way to dump water out of there if you have a heavy rain or something similar dumping more water into the lake than the dam can handle.
"For one, the Borg Queen is a bad idea, as it gives the collective a big bulls-eye. Destroy her, and the whole collective falls apart. But what I hated most was the portrayal of Cochrane. Everything about him in that movie is at odds with the way he was in Metamorphosis, down to his appearance. "
Actually, the Borg Queen is not really in control of the Collective. She is the mouthpiece for an alien force that drives them. This is why she has died twice in canon Star Trek, once in First Contact and once in the Voyage finale, "Endgame"; when one Queen dies, another is created to take its place.
Cochrane in "Metamorphosis" is thought of as a younger, more idealistic version of the man in First Contact; the entity in "Metamorphosis" de-aged and rejuvenated him, which also caused some memory loss. The Cochrane in First Contact was older, world weary, and a drinker; and who could blame him, after living through World War Three?
I know you are going to hate seeing DC do this to Blue Beetle but...
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/132936587171.jpg/
I know you, or someone else on TGWTG has propably talked about this, but I just can't find it anywhere, so Im just gonna ask:
This isn't real, right?
http://www.deadhorseinterchange.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
"This isn't real, right?"
Didn't bother to click the link, but since it's a link to Dead Horse Interchange, I'll assume you mean that site itself. Yeah, it exists. Busy Street exists. Enclycopedia Dramatica exists. These sites exist and I do not care that they exist. People are free to like or dislike our work as they so choose. As long as they don't go out of their way to try to bug me, the site, or the fans, they may do what they wish.
I encourage others to NOT go over there and start trouble or anything like that. It's a waste of time and effort.
@CaptainCalvinCat
I actually think back to something in comics, something Linkara probably read. A comic series that ended in LEX LUTHOR BECOMING GOD.
That's right. He becomes God in the last storyline of Action Comics, number 900. He merges with a being born in the Phantom Zone and guess what? For a few brief minutes, there's an enormous wave of bliss and joy that fills the universe. A moment of peace that's so amazing, Death itself is gleeful and says "Yes, I've got the day off!" and lies down near a guy dying on a ski slope in Austria. There's a moment where there is literally no evil or negativity in all the universe, and ya know what? Luthor LITERALLY could have kept it like that forever. He had that power.
But he couldn't. Know why? Because he couldn't give up his desire to destroy Superman. That RUINED everything. All the bliss and joy faded, all of it within reach because one balding jerk couldn't live and let live.
The moral of the story? No. No, we don't need evil or cruelty or badness in the universe. It just shows up unwanted and unneeded.And it kills off a chance for EVERYONE, and I do mean EVERYONE, to be happy. All of reality could have been a better place if not for Lex's childish obsession. We DON'T need "evil" to survive.
"Actually, the Borg Queen is not really in control of the Collective. She is the mouthpiece for an alien force that drives them. This is why she has died twice in canon Star Trek, once in First Contact and once in the Voyage finale, "Endgame"; when one Queen dies, another is created to take its place.
Cochrane in "Metamorphosis" is thought of as a younger, more idealistic version of the man in First Contact; the entity in "Metamorphosis" de-aged and rejuvenated him, which also caused some memory loss. The Cochrane in First Contact was older, world weary, and a drinker; and who could blame him, after living through World War Three?"
And where are any of these facts stated in the movie itself?
@Lewis Lovhaug
Are you sure this the "they have diffrent opinion" kind of thing? Some things they write on INDb, seem to be pretty personal attacks. Like the breakup between Scarllet and Spoony, bashing of fans ect.
What I really don't get, is why the hell did they make whole wiki about how much you suck. And they continue on watching your shows, despite them clearly knowing, that they wont like it. I mean, when someone is following a bad series its because it has something they like, even if its from something created outside the series. They don't. I mean, what these guys expect? That you will stop "claiming to be feminist, propably to impress your psychotic fangirls", or "bashing Superman"?
"For one, the Borg Queen is a bad idea, as it gives the collective a big bulls-eye. Destroy her, and the whole collective falls apart."
The Borg Queen actually made sense in First Contact.
Normally, a drone's individuality is drowned out by the voices of thousands if not millions of other minds. However, only a few dozen drones went back through time in First Contact. It would make sense for the Borg to need a strong mind capable of suppressing the individuality of drones so that they remain within the Collective. During that kind of incident, the benefit of maintaining the Collective outweigh the risk of a having a single, more fallible, mind.
Having the Borg keep the Queen and have her direct the actions of the Collective when there are billions of minds around makes no sense.
"But what I hated most was the portrayal of Cochrane. Everything about him in that movie is at odds with the way he was in Metamorphosis, down to his appearance."
Lots of things changed from TOS. They also said in TOS that Cochrane was "of Alpha Centauri." Plus the dialogue suggested that Cochrane wasn't just the first human to invent warp. It was implied that Cochrane was the first person to invent warp, which makes about as much sense as the Romulans not having warp during the Earth-Romulan War.
I sat last week and watched all the Red Letter Media reviews of the Star Wars prequels and the Star Trek movies and I gotta say from what learn this has got to be one of the worst Sci-Fi movies ever made!
Love the commentary here! I do like ya'll bringing up all the nitpicks people had that ya'll left all.
Was there ever an attempt to repair the damage this film caused to the stories? I just know normally some one tries to fix bad stories like in generally well liked or loved series like this by having it written somewhere that the events were undone in some way. in this case if that planet was later invaded and all the Space hippies were killed or the planet was destroyed. because really nobody wants those people to live happily ever after. This planet and it's people aren't freaking AVATAR!
I do still gotta wonder if ya'll do a review of the 09 movie!?
Something I found funny is I never knew this because it was never mentioned here or in the Red Letter Media review of Nemesis that that was Tom Hardy as the young clone of Picard! I never knew that was him til I saw a video on Watchmojo on his career.
I just realized that basically this movie is the star Trek equivalent of M. Night's The Village!!! XP
"Are you sure this the "they have diffrent opinion" kind of thing? Some things they write on INDb, seem to be pretty personal attacks. Like the breakup between Scarllet and Spoony, bashing of fans ect."
If they want to get into personal territory, it just goes to show how pathetic THEY are. I don't want people dignifying such things with time and attention.
""Actually, the Borg Queen is not really in control of the Collective. She is the mouthpiece for an alien force that drives them. This is why she has died twice in canon Star Trek, once in First Contact and once in the Voyage finale, "Endgame"; when one Queen dies, another is created to take its place.
Cochrane in "Metamorphosis" is thought of as a younger, more idealistic version of the man in First Contact; the entity in "Metamorphosis" de-aged and rejuvenated him, which also caused some memory loss. The Cochrane in First Contact was older, world weary, and a drinker; and who could blame him, after living through World War Three?"
And where are any of these facts stated in the movie itself?"
Simple answer: they're not.
The bit about the Borg Queen is from David Mack's Star Trek: Destiny trilogy, which are three of many books that continue the Star Trek story after Nemesis. The bit about Cochrane I believe I read in a book called "Federation"; it attempted and failed at being a crossover between the Original series and TNG. However, it did explain how Cochrane got where he was in "Metamorphosis" and why he was younger.
"Simple answer: they're not.
The bit about the Borg Queen is from David Mack's Star Trek: Destiny trilogy, which are three of many books that continue the Star Trek story after Nemesis. The bit about Cochrane I believe I read in a book called "Federation"; it attempted and failed at being a crossover between the Original series and TNG. However, it did explain how Cochrane got where he was in "Metamorphosis" and why he was younger."
First off, I shouldn't have to look at supplemental material in order to understand the inconsistencies. That sort of thing just reeks of patching up holes that should've been patched up in the film proper. If you've seen SF Debris' review of the 09 Star Trek movie, you'd know that Nero in the comics is a strongly written villain, but in the movie itself he's much weaker. And since the movie itself is what the audience has to go by, having details missing is not good.
Second, I don't count the novels, comics and such as canon. To me, all they are are a bunch of fanfics that just so happened to be published, with all the drawbacks that come with internet-based fanfics. All I consider canon are the five live-action TV shows (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT), some of TAS when it meshes with the live-action shows, and the 11 movies. All novels really account for is that particular writers theory on why something is the way it is. Unless it's stated directly in a canon work, it doesn't count. Even if it's really good.
Hey linkara, juat wanted to let you know that you and NC are not the only ones out there who thinks that the morals of this film are stupid as all get out.
I was also wandering you could tell me what your favorite, and least favorite, episodes of the tv series are and why? (sorry if you've been asked this before)
Ps: Why do people also pick on voyager so much, i mean ill be the first to admit that i have barely seen any of Voyager but i dont see why so many star trek fans despise it like they do. I mean is the writing bad or are the characters unlikable or what?
In conclusion, i enjoy your show and hope you keep being awesome.
courtesies from Georgia(the state not the country)
"I like the classics!"
It's okay Lewis, so do I. ^^
@ Anonymus
" Ps: Why do people also pick on voyager so much, i mean ill be the first to admit that i have barely seen any of Voyager but i dont see why so many star trek fans despise it like they do. I mean is the writing bad or are the characters unlikable or what? "
Sometimes the writing is bad or the characters are unlikable or act monumentally stupid. If you have the time, watch the opinionated Reviews by SFdebris.
Sometimes Captain Janeway appears to be a maniac.
But, I for my part, liked the show, even if it was stupid at some points. ^^
Greets
Cal
First, to anonymous #8472:
*I* like Voyager.
The Borg Queen is there to make the Borg more like a social insect. I've never thought that there was only one of her; if there was, why would it be on one escape pod in a major invasion?
CalvinCat:
"didn't they do a show, under (Roddenberry's) watch, that told us, that, no matter how evil and twisted our "bad" side can be, it completes us and we need it in order to survive?"
"A" show?
'The Enemy Within' has Kirk literally dying because his evil has been moved, and there's his 'I need my pain!' speech from ST V: The Final Frontier.
MattComix:
"if people are so invulnerable psychologically then why does the ship have a counselor?"
LOL!!!!
Trekker4747
Love that name. Not all trekkers would get the 47 reference.
Anonymous:
"They also said in TOS that Cochrane was "of Alpha Centauri." "
I'll explain it to you as it was explained to me: He came from Earth, but moved to Alpha Centauri later, and became known as 'of Alpha Centauri' because of living there later on, not because he was born there.
It was explained to me better.
BooRat:
"that was Tom Hardy as the young clone of Picard!"
And Christopher Pine as Kirk in the '09 movie... meaning that 'This Means War' is more of a Kirk vs. Picard than we ever got in Generations.
The Sona are doing the procedure with the Collector to provide life-saving medical technology to virtually everyone. That doesn't mean they'd deny the Baku the same treatment. Hell, even if they have to move to another planet, won't having the treatment let them continue their way of life anyway?!
Why does the Collector even have a self-destruct? We don't see another one, and it's a pretty critical piece of equipment, I'm sure it would be the last thing the Sona would put a self-destruct on!
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