I liked DKR. It did feel like it was missing a some stuff, but the movie was over 2 hours anyway. Directors cut, perhaps.
I found myself liking John Blake during the movie, who is a mishmash of the first three Robins: Orphan (Dick) Street-smarts and usage of guns, well for a bit, anyway (Jason Finding out Bruce is Batman (Tim). If they do a reboot with Joseph-Gordon Levitt as Batman/Nightwing/Whatever I kind of hope they do a combination of Batman Beyond and Court of Owls (as mentiond in your New 52 podcast). Other people besides Wayne have been Batman (although Dick and Terry have been the only successful/non-crazy ones).
PS. I watched the midnight showing and, as tradition for a superhero movie, people were dressed-up. Saw a few Batmen, a Joker, and a Catwoman but the real surprise was a Stephanie Brown Robin.
The Occupy elements weren't that needed but they aren't as far off if you have access to coverage of the Occupy movements in California. Especially around LA, San Francisco and Sacramento. Their behavior and things the members of Occupy themselves had been posting on blogs and twitter makes it allot easier to accept them following someone they know is going to try to kill them.
It may not be all of occupy that is that dumb but the vocal minority among them get there.
Even though I really liked the film, it had some really weird problems that could have been fixed pretty easily.
For example, the way that John Blake figured out Batman's identity was just so ridiculous and corny. All they had to do was make that as a part of the reason why he was able to discover Batman's identity but not the whole reason. Maybe it made him suspicious of Bruce and he capitalized on those keen instinct to develop great investigation skills and gathered clues to discover Batman's identity.
Another example is the fight between the police and Bane's army. So the police just run directly towards Bane's men, who have automatic weapons? What made things worse was that only a few policemen were shot. That could have been fixed very easily if they just had Batman launch some stun grenades into Bane's forces before the police made their charge.
Other than those writing/story problems, I thought the fight scenes between Batman and Bane were pretty weak. Even though the dialogue was great, the choreography and the stunts were really unimpressive. I know the scene was all about the psychology and emotions involved but this is a $250 million action movie, couldn't they have spared a little extra cash to make the action more impressive? It was basically just a street brawl. I don't expect a "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" type fight but couldn't they have had Batman fight a little smarter, use a few more gadgets, and have some more acrobatics and stunts?
As for the plot holes, there are a lot but I think they're forgivable since the last two movie had plenty of them too.
I've been secretly dreading this movie since I saw the first trailer. I feel that Nolan pretty much blew his wad on The Dark Knight and there's no way this 3rd and final film could even live up to the previous 2 let alone surpass them or be a satisfieing conclusion. The problem we have here is Nolan doesn't understand Bob Cane and Bill FInger's Batman. He only understands Frank Miller's Batman. Which as we've seen on this blog, is not the way you wanna go.
Also, can someone explain to me How Harvey Dent died at the end of TDK? He got knocked off the recked building and fell all of 2 stories. Batman dropped Maroni from what looked to me like 3 stories at the most and all that happened was he broke both his legs. How was that fall supposed to kill Two-Face? Couldn't they have had a scene in DKR where we see he's actually still alive in Arkham and the police just said he was dead? I haven't seen DKR yet, nor does Lewis imply that such a plot point exsist, so I can only assume he's supposed to be dead from a completely bullshit cause. And don't tell me he was impaled on a steel rod or shit, because come on.
Ok I coincidently saw it today and I want to comment on something
first of all John Blake being name robin, why not dick grayson?, cause he is not grayson, why not Jason Todd? cause he is not Todd, and he is not Drake either, he is very conceptual as a character to the point that he is combination of the 3 Robins, he is Policeman just like Grayson, he grow on the streets like Todd and he finds out about Bruce Identity like Drake
and like that, it just works perfectly, cause no matter if you are a fan of Drake, Todd or Grayson, he is neither and he is all
then the whole plan of the villains, The way i saw it, is not really that Gotham turn into an utopia, it might be peaceful, but it was peace created from a lie, and deep inside the city was still the same, i think they knew that Batman could had never kill Dent, the letter is just a confirmation of that
the motivations of Bane and Talia comes from the sole story of the prison where they were, the twist of Talia is excellent cause it builds up from the fact that they are telling that It was Bane the kid who escaped and he is the son of Ra's, which was a brilliant twist, and is where their whole motivation lies on This picture of them living in a hole with nothing but the hope of one day escape but never being able to do, and thats exactly what they do to gotham, they put in a hole with the hope that maybe they will be able to escape but they will never do and that was the lesson that they were trying to teach to the whole world, being in a hole without hope to escape is a a very important theme in this movie, cause thats where Bruce is spiritually, he saved Gotham but by a sour victory based on a lie, thats why he needs up like he does at the start, he just gave up inside of himself
and Batman Retiring, the thing is,he is retired at the start of the movie, cause no longer can continue the fight physically and he lost all motivation to do it, but he also loses the will to live on and thats the whole point of the trilogy, his parents die and he psychologically places himself into this prison, he tries to escape that hole using batman as to do that, and saves gotham, but still left him void inside, and is still inside that hole, with the end he finally moves on from that, he finally frees himself from that prison and Rises
though i agree, it does feel like a lot of things got cut off on post production, it was still a great movie to me
Can I ask you something Lewis? In terms of adaptation, does Bane's motivation in this movie make more or less sense than his Motivation was in Knightfall?
The way Batman's back was "fixed" was incredibly stupid.
Had they given him some of Bane's Venom steroids (which needed to be in the movie because Venom is an essential part of Bane's character) or provided some sort of sci-fi explanation (like the Bat Knee Brace) I could have suspended disbelief but the human body does not work like that.
Also, you can't have Batman say "no guns" and then use guns. He either uses guns or he does not use guns. You can't have it both ways.
Finally, future Batman movies need to find a good middle ground between the tights Batman wears in the comics and the armor he wears in the movie which limits the mobility of the actor too much.
Other than that, it was a good movie. My final grade: B.
(The way Batman's back was "fixed" drops it a full letter grade.)
I'm glad I'm not the only one whose favorite is Batman Begins. That's the movie that got me into superhero stuff, not just Batman but superhero media as a whole. Pretty impressive for a movie I didn't even want to see at first.
I agree with most of your points, but when it comes to Anne Hathaway not being right for Catwoman because "she doesn't look like she's lived a hard life" I really have to disagree. If she was more "rough around the edges" she'd actually be less convincing to me, because this is a character who is able to fit in very well with society whilst robbing them blind. Of course she doesn't "look like she's lived a hard life." Plus, what exactly does that mean, "look like she's lived a hard life?" Life doesn't always leave physical marks.
I mean, let's talk about Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow for a bit. I've heard lots of people gripe about how he was "too pretty" or whatever, but considering it's your favorite film of the trilogy I'm gonna guess you thought he was an at least decent choice for the role. One of the special features on the DVD mentioned Crane having been a professor at a university and some other background information which makes me think movie!Crane is meant to have had the same childhood that comics!Crane did. Think about what that entailed - growing up dirt poor on a rotting plantation with a batcrap crazy great-grandmother who locked him in an old church with violent birds and did God only knows what else to him. Does Cillian Murphy look like he grew up like that? I have no idea what someone who grew up like that would look like, but I'm gonna guess no. Was he any less of a good choice for the role because of it? No! His performance was exactly what we wanted from Scarecrow.
I'll disagree slightly on Bane's motivation, because I didn't see anything wrong with it. He owed Talia his life, because she convinced her father to return for him and free him from the prison. And since he was also trained by the League of Shadows, he was most likely a true-believer of their cause as well. The scene where Talia snaps Bane's mask back into place was surprisingly touching, and implied a surrogate family tie between the two of them. I felt it added another dimension to Bane, and made him more sympathetic.
As for the argument that Batman cleaned up Gotham and therefore it no longer needed to be destroyed by the League, that's a perfectly rational point. And therein lies its problem: it's a perfectly rational point being made to a cult-like organization that holds strongly irrational beliefs. Considering it was one of their own who brought about Gotham's change for the better, I doubt they believe its improvement is "legitimate."
Well, I like your take on the movie. Personally, I thought it was a really good finale though like you said the script could have used some tightening. Then again, Nolan's movie in general always had a bit of a loose quality about them. Maybe that's why I like them.
I disagree about a couple of things. 1) How was Selina Kyle supposed to look? Of course, she is all glammed up. She robs from the rich so she has to blend in. If someone comes from the slums, they cannot be in the least bit attractive? I don't think the "Hollywood Homely" trope applies here. Anne Hathaway was great, in my opinion. 2) Alfred as not wasted but I see where you are coming from. I thought Michael Caine made the most of his role. The scene where he leaves made it worth it. 3) Bane and Talia had no intention of surviving. They had nothing left but revenge. That is how screwed up they are. They ultimately didn't give a shit about saving the world because the world was dead to them. Every waking moment they have to live with what they went through in that prison. Plus, I don't think Bane is necessarily diminished as a villain. I think it gives him some depth and humanity and makes him surprisingly sympathetic in retrospect. 4) The Harvey Dent exposure. You brought up a valid point but I think maybe they had Gordon's prints on it. Plus, his handwriting could have been authenticated. Yeah, that is a stretch but best I can do.
But good review and if you don't accept my views, you are welcome to :)
See, I don't think the "arc" works here with setting things up, it seems like the build up of the Batcave, the bat gear, the legend of Batman, the Bat Signal, etc. seems pointless when Batman spent several years not working as Batman and ends with him NOT being Batman.
I've actually noticed a lot of people having this problem with the movie (I explained it over at Spoony's site to). Why Bane descends Gotham into chaos actually seemed pretty obvious to me, but no one else seemed to have seen it.
Ra's Al Ghul's thinking in Begins was that Gotham was irredeemable and so needed to be destroyed, Bruce believing that was wrong. It's a big theme over the course of the movies, even Joker got in on it. In order to truly avenge Ra's, Bane and Talia must prove that he was right and Bruce was wrong for opposing him. This was never about conquering the city or gaining power, this was about vengeance.
As for Bane and Talia not leaving, remember the League people are perfectly willing to die for the cause, they probably have the same mindset.
Sorry if you already got a ton of emails over this.
Personally, it felt too silly for how serious it took itself. The time-skips also jumping logic didn't help much either.
"I'm so distraught from Rachel's death, I locked myself away for 8 years." "Allo Monsieur Wayne, how do you like my boobs?" "You have got a nice pair - okay, I'm over Whatshername" "If you put that suit back on, I quit - I was fine letting you waste away for most of a decade, but I suddenly care what happens to you now."
"Dude, we're both orphans!" "So?" "That means you're Batman!" ".... Nolan, are you even trying anymore?"
Plus, of course, the little girl escaping the dank pit, finding out what alias her father had now, realising he was in the LoS, finding out where their hidden base was, and getting to Mongolia from... wherever the Pit was meant to be. If a malnourished kid who grew up in a cave can track you down... Worst Clandestine Ninja Army Ever.
Wicked glad to hear ya'll's review of this movie! You've basically had the same opinion as the majority in that it's good but not as good as the 2nd movie! I haven't seen it yet too broke to go to even a matinee showing, but I've read and seen enough to know what happens in it at least. I kinda hoped they'd thrown in a few more villains since they did a mix of Knightfall and No-Man's Land. They could've done what they did with Joker and Scarecrow not give their back story and just have them show up. There's one comic about the joker that is drawn and set in a more realistic world and it ha Killer Croc in it as a huge guy with that skin condition that gives you hard scaly skin. Like a real bad case of Psoriasis! From what I've heard the original draft for the movie had stuff in it dealing with the Joker but it was all cut out and was probably not even filmed which kind of annoys me that they did that. And the Thalia and Bane and the Bomb I think they were suicide bombing the city basically. The whole cult part of the League of Shadows thing coming in to play!
The new Silent Hill movie looks pretty good to me and from what I understand of the production it is a sequel/reboot of the 1st film sort of like how Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance and G.I.Joe:Retaliation are and the proposed Deadpool: Movie is suppose to be when it gets made.
There was some setup for Talia, in that when she and Bruce had sex, she had the League burn scar, and the flashback to her escaping the prison was so specific in not using gendered pronouns that it was obviously not Bane.
I spent the last third of the movie groaning about nuclear physics. Nuclear fusion materials don't explode when they decay, if they did, you wouldn't be able to stick a timer on it like it's a time bomb, all those kids watching the explosion would have had their eyeballs boil out of their heads from the gamma radiation, and there wouldn't have been a mushroom cloud.
Also, can someone explain to me How Harvey Dent died at the end of TDK?
it was the way he landed that would have killed him. Maroni was dropped feet first so when he landed his legs absorbed the impact and broke but otherwise left him unharmed. Dent landed on his back so he had no way to absorb the impact which would have include some major head trauma and that would have been what killed him
I liked it, but Batman Begins is still my favourite of this trilogy; and I prefer the Burton movies overall.
"Another example is the fight between the police and Bane's army. So the police just run directly towards Bane's men, who have automatic weapons?"
Was anyone else thinking about Zap Brannigan? "I will send wave after wave of my men in a suicide mission..."
I saw the Man Of Steel trailer, and thought 'bleak, colourless... you know, Superman!' and 'this will be the perfect movie to watch next time I want to work myself up to slash my wrists!' - yes, that's judging the movie by a trailer; but isn't that what trailers are for?
Surprised you didn't touch upon the Secret Six reference of Bane and Talia's relationship being simillar to his and Scandal Savage's. Anyway, some insane theories: 1: No idea how Bruce got back into the US but how did he get into Gotham? The underground railway tunnels from Batman Begins. 2: Bane and Talia never intended to to escape, their plan was to go out with a bang. 3: The country that the prison that was a Lazarus Pit stand-in was Nanda Parbat.
1) The film was probably written and in production before the OWS protests. The Nolan brothers have credited A Tale of Two Cities as their inspiration. However, I can certainly see where people get the OWS connection, which I think says more about modern-day radicals than it does about the film. 2) The radical imagination sees any sort of power or wealth imbalance as implicitly corrupt. Gotham may have improved since the days of Batman Begins, but injustice still lurks in the shadows, as Daggett's conspiracy proves. While most people would see this as an isolated incident, radicals see this as an example of the corruption implicit in modern society. Also, remember that in the first film, Ra's said the League of Shadows tried to bring down Gotham using economics, implying that they were responsible for the depression that caused the spike in crime, which implies that their real target was Gotham's decadence (which I suppose would make them reactionaries rather than radicals, but I digress). 3) Bane and Talia wanted to die. Period. Once they'd fulfilled their purpose and gotten their revenge, they didn't really have anything left to live for. I thought that was pretty explicit. 4) Selina is said to have been a very successful cat burglar since her youth. I wouldn't be surprised if she had a few plastic surgery jobs and makeovers over the years. 5) I don't think the reveal lessened Bane's character at all. He clearly believed in their cause as much as Talia did.
Really, I think the only plot hole is how the heck Bruce got back to Gotham. I think you're right; they probably cut a scene for reasons of pacing.
When you can, get Growlanser IV. You may be turned off by the fanservce-y characters, but it's a really good game.
As for the movie, yeah, I agree with you. The Dark Knight was, in my opinion, a much stronger movie compared to this one, but then again, Dark Knight was a tough act to follow.
I completely agree with what you said, many of the points I spotted and many more float to the surface the further you get from it.
It's weak as all heck, lifeless and it LOOKS like there's a lot happening but as they recycle the story half way through, (Bruce having to come back again) there's a lot of 'it's good but...' type reviews, trust me it's NOT good because all people are actually able to say that's positive about it are the performances and the direction, which is still lacking in originality and the 'fight' scenes between Bane and Batman look like Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots.
I think the closest foreshadowing for Talia was when she and Bruce had sex and Bruce saw a scar. I also don't think being faithful to the source material was actually a twist, as I was upset with Bane's "backstory" until it was revealed that it was Talia, but I think it also makes Bane's backstory more ambiguous beyond it being implied that he too was born in the Pit.
My main problem with Talia, while her inclusion beyond completely expected, is that Nolan keeps introducing too many villains in the final act of the film. Begins had Ra's, then Scarecrow, and then the real Ra's, basically bringing things full circle, while Dark Knight had Two-Face, and now this had Talia. While there was a connection between the villains, it just seemed predictable that Bane wouldn't actually be the final villain.
For "Oz the Great and Powerful", all I can is say "You're a wizard, Harry," but I do want to see it though.
Not surprised by your choice in PSP games. I for one prefer 5D's to GX, but I do love GX in its own right.
Personally I thought Bane as a thug was pretty fitting. It just shows how low Batman's defeat had become. Being beaten by a villain is one thing, it's bad but it's honourable. But when you get your ass handed to you by someone who was built up to be the main bad guy, only to find out that he was a glorified thug, it becomes a major blow to his ego and it just gives Batman more of a reason to kick the crap out of him. Not only that but before the reveal you could actually pinpoint the the exact place where Bane became scared of Batman. As for their motives they didn't care about Ra's destiny, they claimed to, but it had been established that Talia was defiant of her father especially when he excommunicated Bane. Likewise they didn't care that Batman saved Gotham hence why they brought it down to Chaos again. The whole liberation thing was really just a smoke screen to prove to the world that Gotham is beyond saving like Ra's said. Basically Talia was a kid throwing a tanturm. Talia: We shall destroy gotham!!! Bane: Why? Talia: Because it's beyond saving. Bane: Are you sure? I just looked the crime rate is lower now that the Dent act is in place. Talia: That's a lie!? Bane: We are not going to Gotham. Talia: But I wanna!!!!! The Batman killed my daddy!!! Bane: Oh alright!!!!
As for them staying while the bomb goes off, it was implied only Talia was staying. Bane's original part of the plan was to kill Bruce after he watches Gotham die. Talia was more than willing to die much like her father did in begins. (Seriously he had like what a few seconds to bail out before the train hit the garage.) It seems dying for their cause even if they fail is sort of an Al Ghul family tradition. Must be hell when thanksgiving rolls around.
agreed, it was a good movie, but not a great one. my biggest problem was when Marion/ Talia revel.....if she had been Talia more in the movie, it could of worked......plus that deal with Bane and her seems....creepy if you ask me
I could rant on this movie all day long, but I be nit-picky if did....good movie, but has it's problems with the script and stuff bottom line....good review Lewis
I guess I'm the only person who thinks this would work much better if split into two movies, ending the first one when Bane takes control of Gotham. Or at least some damn fade-outs with captions to help clarify when we jump forward in time.
Also, about that prison and the well... symbolism much?
Linkara- regarding Vincent in the "Silent Hill Revelations" trailer, this scene does seem to indicate he is a sleeper agent for the cult, making him a little closer to the actual source character.
Who's to say that they did believe Bane when he revealed the truth about Harvey Dent? The only reaction we saw to the letter was John's. Bane might have read the speech to rile up the prisoners in Blackgate.
Phantom Roxas: "My main problem with Talia, while her inclusion beyond completely expected, is that Nolan keeps introducing too many villains in the final act of the film..."
The first two movies had a main villain, and a secondary villain who represented the theme. In Begins, that was Scarecrow and fear; in DK, Two-Face and inspiration to good or evil. (It'll take more than one midnight viewing to figure out what that is in DKR.)
arw1985: "Who's to say that they did believe Bane when he revealed the truth about Harvey Dent?"
I agree. One character asked if it was true, and got confirmation; we don't know everybody else's reaction.
I saw the Dark Knight Rises a while back. I didn't expect that film to be better than Marvel's the Avengers (how can you top Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk, and Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury?). Still, I think it's ten times better than Batman and Robin . . . and Catwoman.
Wait...I don't think the Talia/Bane not leaving Gotham was a plothole. Remember that Ras didn't have a real escape plan in the first movie. Talia/Bane probably planned on dying.
Most likely, no escape plan. Like their 'message', they didn't care about finer details.
"I'm leaving you in this pit, with a TV hooked up to CNN by satellite, to watch Gotham tear itself apart." "You're going to Fear-Gas everyone?" "No, it's been done." "You'll force them into elaborate traps to choose between their life or.." "That was the second movie." "So, Bane, how are you going to make the city tear itself apart as some huge moral message to the world about corruption?" "We're releasing all the prisoners, and letting them run the city." ".... really? That's 'making Gotham tear itself apart'?" "... It's part of our message." "Oh yeah, the profound warning of 'Dangerous criminals are dangerous!' What gripping insight you have to offer." "..... Shut up."
As someone who watched the movie with three of my family members, none of whom know anything about Batman outside of the movies, I know exactly why they decided to make his real name "robin" john blake (which was not revealed until the ending): casual audience members would not have gotten the reference it if his real name was Tim Drake, Jason Todd, or even Dick Grayson. By making his name Robin (which is a real, if rare, boys name), Nolan could be sure that everyone got the reference.
I think the movie used some of the good stuff from No man's Land, like Batman being in a lawless Gotham and having to take it back. However, it lacked the thing that made No Man's Land my favorite Batman story: The battles between the villains and the Police Force, as well as Batman and his Partners. I would have really liked to see that in the Movie. Hell, they had Scarecrow lying around. Seeing him fighting Bane and Talia's forces would have been really cool
I really disagree with this rushing toward a conclusion. It is the most boring of the trilogy. It just draaaaags. It easily could've done the same in 90 to 120 minutes but went into way over 150.
Also I like Batman Begins the most as well, mainly because Scarecrow and Ra's al Ghul(Which EVERYBODY pronounces wrong. It's not "Raysh", it's "Rays" and not "Gool" but "Hool", damnit!) are my favourite batrogues, Scarecrow more so than Ra's.
I believe they intended to be killed with the bomb, the bomb was intended to bring redemption without exception meaning including them.
ReplyDeleteBane could use steroids and Supplemental Injection.
you may appreciate this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1345836/faq
I liked DKR. It did feel like it was missing a some stuff, but the movie was over 2 hours anyway. Directors cut, perhaps.
ReplyDeleteI found myself liking John Blake during the movie, who is a mishmash of the first three Robins:
Orphan (Dick)
Street-smarts and usage of guns, well for a bit, anyway (Jason
Finding out Bruce is Batman (Tim).
If they do a reboot with Joseph-Gordon Levitt as Batman/Nightwing/Whatever I kind of hope they do a combination of Batman Beyond and Court of Owls (as mentiond in your New 52 podcast). Other people besides Wayne have been Batman (although Dick and Terry have been the only successful/non-crazy ones).
PS. I watched the midnight showing and, as tradition for a superhero movie, people were dressed-up. Saw a few Batmen, a Joker, and a Catwoman but the real surprise was a Stephanie Brown Robin.
The Occupy elements weren't that needed but they aren't as far off if you have access to coverage of the Occupy movements in California. Especially around LA, San Francisco and Sacramento. Their behavior and things the members of Occupy themselves had been posting on blogs and twitter makes it allot easier to accept them following someone they know is going to try to kill them.
ReplyDeleteIt may not be all of occupy that is that dumb but the vocal minority among them get there.
Thanks for the quick commentary.
Even though I really liked the film, it had some really weird problems that could have been fixed pretty easily.
ReplyDeleteFor example, the way that John Blake figured out Batman's identity was just so ridiculous and corny. All they had to do was make that as a part of the reason why he was able to discover Batman's identity but not the whole reason. Maybe it made him suspicious of Bruce and he capitalized on those keen instinct to develop great investigation skills and gathered clues to discover Batman's identity.
Another example is the fight between the police and Bane's army. So the police just run directly towards Bane's men, who have automatic weapons? What made things worse was that only a few policemen were shot. That could have been fixed very easily if they just had Batman launch some stun grenades into Bane's forces before the police made their charge.
Other than those writing/story problems, I thought the fight scenes between Batman and Bane were pretty weak. Even though the dialogue was great, the choreography and the stunts were really unimpressive. I know the scene was all about the psychology and emotions involved but this is a $250 million action movie, couldn't they have spared a little extra cash to make the action more impressive? It was basically just a street brawl. I don't expect a "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" type fight but couldn't they have had Batman fight a little smarter, use a few more gadgets, and have some more acrobatics and stunts?
As for the plot holes, there are a lot but I think they're forgivable since the last two movie had plenty of them too.
I've been secretly dreading this movie since I saw the first trailer. I feel that Nolan pretty much blew his wad on The Dark Knight and there's no way this 3rd and final film could even live up to the previous 2 let alone surpass them or be a satisfieing conclusion. The problem we have here is Nolan doesn't understand Bob Cane and Bill FInger's Batman. He only understands Frank Miller's Batman. Which as we've seen on this blog, is not the way you wanna go.
ReplyDeleteAlso, can someone explain to me How Harvey Dent died at the end of TDK? He got knocked off the recked building and fell all of 2 stories. Batman dropped Maroni from what looked to me like 3 stories at the most and all that happened was he broke both his legs. How was that fall supposed to kill Two-Face? Couldn't they have had a scene in DKR where we see he's actually still alive in Arkham and the police just said he was dead? I haven't seen DKR yet, nor does Lewis imply that such a plot point exsist, so I can only assume he's supposed to be dead from a completely bullshit cause. And don't tell me he was impaled on a steel rod or shit, because come on.
I found Nolan's Batman one of the few versions I could believably see retiring as he has much more Bruce Wayne left in him than most.
ReplyDeleteI think my final thoughts on Christian Bale's performance is this: He is an okay Batman, but he is a great Bruce Wayne.
Ok I coincidently saw it today and I want to comment on something
ReplyDeletefirst of all John Blake being name robin, why not dick grayson?, cause he is not grayson, why not Jason Todd? cause he is not Todd, and he is not Drake either, he is very conceptual as a character to the point that he is combination of the 3 Robins, he is Policeman just like Grayson, he grow on the streets like Todd and he finds out about Bruce Identity like Drake
and like that, it just works perfectly, cause no matter if you are a fan of Drake, Todd or Grayson, he is neither and he is all
then the whole plan of the villains, The way i saw it, is not really that Gotham turn into an utopia, it might be peaceful, but it was peace created from a lie, and deep inside the city was still the same, i think they knew that Batman could had never kill Dent, the letter is just a confirmation of that
the motivations of Bane and Talia comes from the sole story of the prison where they were, the twist of Talia is excellent cause it builds up from the fact that they are telling that It was Bane the kid who escaped and he is the son of Ra's, which was a brilliant twist, and is where their whole motivation lies on
This picture of them living in a hole with nothing but the hope of one day escape but never being able to do, and thats exactly what they do to gotham, they put in a hole with the hope that maybe they will be able to escape but they will never do and that was the lesson that they were trying to teach to the whole world, being in a hole without hope to escape is a a very important theme in this movie, cause thats where Bruce is spiritually, he saved Gotham but by a sour victory based on a lie, thats why he needs up like he does at the start, he just gave up inside of himself
and Batman Retiring, the thing is,he is retired at the start of the movie, cause no longer can continue the fight physically and he lost all motivation to do it, but he also loses the will to live on
and thats the whole point of the trilogy, his parents die and he psychologically places himself into this prison, he tries to escape that hole using batman as to do that, and saves gotham, but still left him void inside, and is still inside that hole, with the end he finally moves on from that, he finally frees himself from that prison and Rises
though i agree, it does feel like a lot of things got cut off on post production, it was still a great movie to me
Can I ask you something Lewis? In terms of adaptation, does Bane's motivation in this movie make more or less sense than his Motivation was in Knightfall?
ReplyDeleteThe way Batman's back was "fixed" was incredibly stupid.
ReplyDeleteHad they given him some of Bane's Venom steroids (which needed to be in the movie because Venom is an essential part of Bane's character) or provided some sort of sci-fi explanation (like the Bat Knee Brace) I could have suspended disbelief but the human body does not work like that.
Also, you can't have Batman say "no guns" and then use guns. He either uses guns or he does not use guns. You can't have it both ways.
Finally, future Batman movies need to find a good middle ground between the tights Batman wears in the comics and the armor he wears in the movie which limits the mobility of the actor too much.
Other than that, it was a good movie. My final grade: B.
(The way Batman's back was "fixed" drops it a full letter grade.)
Huh. I actually didn't spot a few of those plotholes when viewing the film. I might need to revise my opinion on it at some point.
ReplyDeleteActually, could I ask you a quick question. Did you spend the first half a minute of the Superman teaser thinking it was advertising an Aquaman film?
I'm glad I'm not the only one whose favorite is Batman Begins. That's the movie that got me into superhero stuff, not just Batman but superhero media as a whole. Pretty impressive for a movie I didn't even want to see at first.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of your points, but when it comes to Anne Hathaway not being right for Catwoman because "she doesn't look like she's lived a hard life" I really have to disagree. If she was more "rough around the edges" she'd actually be less convincing to me, because this is a character who is able to fit in very well with society whilst robbing them blind. Of course she doesn't "look like she's lived a hard life." Plus, what exactly does that mean, "look like she's lived a hard life?" Life doesn't always leave physical marks.
I mean, let's talk about Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow for a bit. I've heard lots of people gripe about how he was "too pretty" or whatever, but considering it's your favorite film of the trilogy I'm gonna guess you thought he was an at least decent choice for the role. One of the special features on the DVD mentioned Crane having been a professor at a university and some other background information which makes me think movie!Crane is meant to have had the same childhood that comics!Crane did. Think about what that entailed - growing up dirt poor on a rotting plantation with a batcrap crazy great-grandmother who locked him in an old church with violent birds and did God only knows what else to him. Does Cillian Murphy look like he grew up like that? I have no idea what someone who grew up like that would look like, but I'm gonna guess no. Was he any less of a good choice for the role because of it? No! His performance was exactly what we wanted from Scarecrow.
I'll disagree slightly on Bane's motivation, because I didn't see anything wrong with it. He owed Talia his life, because she convinced her father to return for him and free him from the prison. And since he was also trained by the League of Shadows, he was most likely a true-believer of their cause as well. The scene where Talia snaps Bane's mask back into place was surprisingly touching, and implied a surrogate family tie between the two of them. I felt it added another dimension to Bane, and made him more sympathetic.
ReplyDeleteAs for the argument that Batman cleaned up Gotham and therefore it no longer needed to be destroyed by the League, that's a perfectly rational point. And therein lies its problem: it's a perfectly rational point being made to a cult-like organization that holds strongly irrational beliefs. Considering it was one of their own who brought about Gotham's change for the better, I doubt they believe its improvement is "legitimate."
Well, I like your take on the movie. Personally, I thought it was a really good finale though like you said the script could have used some tightening. Then again, Nolan's movie in general always had a bit of a loose quality about them. Maybe that's why I like them.
ReplyDeleteI disagree about a couple of things.
1) How was Selina Kyle supposed to look? Of course, she is all glammed up. She robs from the rich so she has to blend in. If someone comes from the slums, they cannot be in the least bit attractive? I don't think the "Hollywood Homely" trope applies here. Anne Hathaway was great, in my opinion.
2) Alfred as not wasted but I see where you are coming from. I thought Michael Caine made the most of his role. The scene where he leaves made it worth it.
3) Bane and Talia had no intention of surviving. They had nothing left but revenge. That is how screwed up they are. They ultimately didn't give a shit about saving the world because the world was dead to them. Every waking moment they have to live with what they went through in that prison. Plus, I don't think Bane is necessarily diminished as a villain. I think it gives him some depth and humanity and makes him surprisingly sympathetic in retrospect.
4) The Harvey Dent exposure. You brought up a valid point but I think maybe they had Gordon's prints on it. Plus, his handwriting could have been authenticated. Yeah, that is a stretch but best I can do.
But good review and if you don't accept my views, you are welcome to :)
See, I don't think the "arc" works here with setting things up, it seems like the build up of the Batcave, the bat gear, the legend of Batman, the Bat Signal, etc. seems pointless when Batman spent several years not working as Batman and ends with him NOT being Batman.
ReplyDeleteI've actually noticed a lot of people having this problem with the movie (I explained it over at Spoony's site to). Why Bane descends Gotham into chaos actually seemed pretty obvious to me, but no one else seemed to have seen it.
ReplyDeleteRa's Al Ghul's thinking in Begins was that Gotham was irredeemable and so needed to be destroyed, Bruce believing that was wrong. It's a big theme over the course of the movies, even Joker got in on it. In order to truly avenge Ra's, Bane and Talia must prove that he was right and Bruce was wrong for opposing him. This was never about conquering the city or gaining power, this was about vengeance.
As for Bane and Talia not leaving, remember the League people are perfectly willing to die for the cause, they probably have the same mindset.
Sorry if you already got a ton of emails over this.
Personally, it felt too silly for how serious it took itself. The time-skips also jumping logic didn't help much either.
ReplyDelete"I'm so distraught from Rachel's death, I locked myself away for 8 years."
"Allo Monsieur Wayne, how do you like my boobs?"
"You have got a nice pair - okay, I'm over Whatshername"
"If you put that suit back on, I quit - I was fine letting you waste away for most of a decade, but I suddenly care what happens to you now."
"Dude, we're both orphans!"
"So?"
"That means you're Batman!"
".... Nolan, are you even trying anymore?"
Plus, of course, the little girl escaping the dank pit, finding out what alias her father had now, realising he was in the LoS, finding out where their hidden base was, and getting to Mongolia from... wherever the Pit was meant to be. If a malnourished kid who grew up in a cave can track you down... Worst Clandestine Ninja Army Ever.
Bane and Talia were fine with dieing I think.
ReplyDeleteWicked glad to hear ya'll's review of this movie! You've basically had the same opinion as the majority in that it's good but not as good as the 2nd movie!
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen it yet too broke to go to even a matinee showing, but I've read and seen enough to know what happens in it at least. I kinda hoped they'd thrown in a few more villains since they did a mix of Knightfall and No-Man's Land. They could've done what they did with Joker and Scarecrow not give their back story and just have them show up. There's one comic about the joker that is drawn and set in a more realistic world and it ha Killer Croc in it as a huge guy with that skin condition that gives you hard scaly skin. Like a real bad case of Psoriasis! From what I've heard the original draft for the movie had stuff in it dealing with the Joker but it was all cut out and was probably not even filmed which kind of annoys me that they did that.
And the Thalia and Bane and the Bomb I think they were suicide bombing the city basically. The whole cult part of the League of Shadows thing coming in to play!
The new Silent Hill movie looks pretty good to me and from what I understand of the production it is a sequel/reboot of the 1st film sort of like how Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance and G.I.Joe:Retaliation are and the proposed Deadpool: Movie is suppose to be when it gets made.
There was some setup for Talia, in that when she and Bruce had sex, she had the League burn scar, and the flashback to her escaping the prison was so specific in not using gendered pronouns that it was obviously not Bane.
ReplyDeleteI spent the last third of the movie groaning about nuclear physics. Nuclear fusion materials don't explode when they decay, if they did, you wouldn't be able to stick a timer on it like it's a time bomb, all those kids watching the explosion would have had their eyeballs boil out of their heads from the gamma radiation, and there wouldn't have been a mushroom cloud.
MatserSeijin said...
ReplyDeleteAlso, can someone explain to me How Harvey Dent died at the end of TDK?
it was the way he landed that would have killed him. Maroni was dropped feet first so when he landed his legs absorbed the impact and broke but otherwise left him unharmed.
Dent landed on his back so he had no way to absorb the impact which would have include some major head trauma and that would have been what killed him
I liked it, but Batman Begins is still my favourite of this trilogy; and I prefer the Burton movies overall.
ReplyDelete"Another example is the fight between the police and Bane's army. So the police just run directly towards Bane's men, who have automatic weapons?"
Was anyone else thinking about Zap Brannigan? "I will send wave after wave of my men in a suicide mission..."
I saw the Man Of Steel trailer, and thought 'bleak, colourless... you know, Superman!' and 'this will be the perfect movie to watch next time I want to work myself up to slash my wrists!'
- yes, that's judging the movie by a trailer; but isn't that what trailers are for?
Surprised you didn't touch upon the Secret Six reference of Bane and Talia's relationship being simillar to his and Scandal Savage's. Anyway, some insane theories: 1: No idea how Bruce got back into the US but how did he get into Gotham? The underground railway tunnels from Batman Begins. 2: Bane and Talia never intended to to escape, their plan was to go out with a bang. 3: The country that the prison that was a Lazarus Pit stand-in was Nanda Parbat.
ReplyDeleteA few things:
ReplyDelete1) The film was probably written and in production before the OWS protests. The Nolan brothers have credited A Tale of Two Cities as their inspiration. However, I can certainly see where people get the OWS connection, which I think says more about modern-day radicals than it does about the film.
2) The radical imagination sees any sort of power or wealth imbalance as implicitly corrupt. Gotham may have improved since the days of Batman Begins, but injustice still lurks in the shadows, as Daggett's conspiracy proves. While most people would see this as an isolated incident, radicals see this as an example of the corruption implicit in modern society. Also, remember that in the first film, Ra's said the League of Shadows tried to bring down Gotham using economics, implying that they were responsible for the depression that caused the spike in crime, which implies that their real target was Gotham's decadence (which I suppose would make them reactionaries rather than radicals, but I digress).
3) Bane and Talia wanted to die. Period. Once they'd fulfilled their purpose and gotten their revenge, they didn't really have anything left to live for. I thought that was pretty explicit.
4) Selina is said to have been a very successful cat burglar since her youth. I wouldn't be surprised if she had a few plastic surgery jobs and makeovers over the years.
5) I don't think the reveal lessened Bane's character at all. He clearly believed in their cause as much as Talia did.
Really, I think the only plot hole is how the heck Bruce got back to Gotham. I think you're right; they probably cut a scene for reasons of pacing.
When you can, get Growlanser IV. You may be turned off by the fanservce-y characters, but it's a really good game.
ReplyDeleteAs for the movie, yeah, I agree with you. The Dark Knight was, in my opinion, a much stronger movie compared to this one, but then again, Dark Knight was a tough act to follow.
I completely agree with what you said, many of the points I spotted and many more float to the surface the further you get from it.
ReplyDeleteIt's weak as all heck, lifeless and it LOOKS like there's a lot happening but as they recycle the story half way through, (Bruce having to come back again) there's a lot of 'it's good but...' type reviews, trust me it's NOT good because all people are actually able to say that's positive about it are the performances and the direction, which is still lacking in originality and the 'fight' scenes between Bane and Batman look like Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots.
I think the closest foreshadowing for Talia was when she and Bruce had sex and Bruce saw a scar. I also don't think being faithful to the source material was actually a twist, as I was upset with Bane's "backstory" until it was revealed that it was Talia, but I think it also makes Bane's backstory more ambiguous beyond it being implied that he too was born in the Pit.
ReplyDeleteMy main problem with Talia, while her inclusion beyond completely expected, is that Nolan keeps introducing too many villains in the final act of the film. Begins had Ra's, then Scarecrow, and then the real Ra's, basically bringing things full circle, while Dark Knight had Two-Face, and now this had Talia. While there was a connection between the villains, it just seemed predictable that Bane wouldn't actually be the final villain.
For "Oz the Great and Powerful", all I can is say "You're a wizard, Harry," but I do want to see it though.
Not surprised by your choice in PSP games. I for one prefer 5D's to GX, but I do love GX in its own right.
Personally I thought Bane as a thug was pretty fitting. It just shows how low Batman's defeat had become. Being beaten by a villain is one thing, it's bad but it's honourable. But when you get your ass handed to you by someone who was built up to be the main bad guy, only to find out that he was a glorified thug, it becomes a major blow to his ego and it just gives Batman more of a reason to kick the crap out of him. Not only that but before the reveal you could actually pinpoint the the exact place where Bane became scared of Batman. As for their motives they didn't care about Ra's destiny, they claimed to, but it had been established that Talia was defiant of her father especially when he excommunicated Bane. Likewise they didn't care that Batman saved Gotham hence why they brought it down to Chaos again. The whole liberation thing was really just a smoke screen to prove to the world that Gotham is beyond saving like Ra's said. Basically Talia was a kid throwing a tanturm.
ReplyDeleteTalia: We shall destroy gotham!!!
Bane: Why?
Talia: Because it's beyond saving.
Bane: Are you sure? I just looked the crime rate is lower now that the Dent act is in place.
Talia: That's a lie!?
Bane: We are not going to Gotham.
Talia: But I wanna!!!!! The Batman killed my daddy!!!
Bane: Oh alright!!!!
As for them staying while the bomb goes off, it was implied only Talia was staying. Bane's original part of the plan was to kill Bruce after he watches Gotham die. Talia was more than willing to die much like her father did in begins. (Seriously he had like what a few seconds to bail out before the train hit the garage.) It seems dying for their cause even if they fail is sort of an Al Ghul family tradition. Must be hell when thanksgiving rolls around.
agreed, it was a good movie, but not a great one. my biggest problem was when Marion/ Talia revel.....if she had been Talia more in the movie, it could of worked......plus that deal with Bane and her seems....creepy if you ask me
ReplyDeleteI could rant on this movie all day long, but I be nit-picky if did....good movie, but has it's problems with the script and stuff bottom line....good review Lewis
Cannot believe that you like YGO:GX more than 5d's. The sheer awfulness of that series was just... oh my goodness.
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm the only person who thinks this would work much better if split into two movies, ending the first one when Bane takes control of Gotham. Or at least some damn fade-outs with captions to help clarify when we jump forward in time.
ReplyDeleteAlso, about that prison and the well... symbolism much?
Linkara- regarding Vincent in the "Silent Hill Revelations" trailer, this scene does seem to indicate he is a sleeper agent for the cult, making him a little closer to the actual source character.
ReplyDeleteWho's to say that they did believe Bane when he revealed the truth about Harvey Dent? The only reaction we saw to the letter was John's. Bane might have read the speech to rile up the prisoners in Blackgate.
ReplyDeletePhantom Roxas: "My main problem with Talia, while her inclusion beyond completely expected, is that Nolan keeps introducing too many villains in the final act of the film..."
ReplyDeleteThe first two movies had a main villain, and a secondary villain who represented the theme. In Begins, that was Scarecrow and fear; in DK, Two-Face and inspiration to good or evil.
(It'll take more than one midnight viewing to figure out what that is in DKR.)
arw1985:
"Who's to say that they did believe Bane when he revealed the truth about Harvey Dent?"
I agree. One character asked if it was true, and got confirmation; we don't know everybody else's reaction.
I saw the Dark Knight Rises a while back. I didn't expect that film to be better than Marvel's the Avengers (how can you top Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk, and Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury?). Still, I think it's ten times better than Batman and Robin . . . and Catwoman.
ReplyDeleteWait...I don't think the Talia/Bane not leaving Gotham was a plothole. Remember that Ras didn't have a real escape plan in the first movie. Talia/Bane probably planned on dying.
ReplyDeleteMost likely, no escape plan. Like their 'message', they didn't care about finer details.
ReplyDelete"I'm leaving you in this pit, with a TV hooked up to CNN by satellite, to watch Gotham tear itself apart."
"You're going to Fear-Gas everyone?"
"No, it's been done."
"You'll force them into elaborate traps to choose between their life or.."
"That was the second movie."
"So, Bane, how are you going to make the city tear itself apart as some huge moral message to the world about corruption?"
"We're releasing all the prisoners, and letting them run the city."
".... really? That's 'making Gotham tear itself apart'?"
"... It's part of our message."
"Oh yeah, the profound warning of 'Dangerous criminals are dangerous!' What gripping insight you have to offer."
"..... Shut up."
As someone who watched the movie with three of my family members, none of whom know anything about Batman outside of the movies, I know exactly why they decided to make his real name "robin" john blake (which was not revealed until the ending): casual audience members would not have gotten the reference it if his real name was Tim Drake, Jason Todd, or even Dick Grayson. By making his name Robin (which is a real, if rare, boys name), Nolan could be sure that everyone got the reference.
ReplyDeleteBy that logic, they should have called Selina Kyle "Kitty" or "Catrina".
ReplyDeleteI don’t see it so...
ReplyDeleteThe movie was suppose to be longer but it had cuts because it was filming in Imax.
I think the movie used some of the good stuff from No man's Land, like Batman being in a lawless Gotham and having to take it back.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it lacked the thing that made No Man's Land my favorite Batman story: The battles between the villains and the Police Force, as well as Batman and his Partners. I would have really liked to see that in the Movie.
Hell, they had Scarecrow lying around. Seeing him fighting Bane and Talia's forces would have been really cool
I really disagree with this rushing toward a conclusion. It is the most boring of the trilogy. It just draaaaags. It easily could've done the same in 90 to 120 minutes but went into way over 150.
ReplyDeleteAlso I like Batman Begins the most as well, mainly because Scarecrow and Ra's al Ghul(Which EVERYBODY pronounces wrong. It's not "Raysh", it's "Rays" and not "Gool" but "Hool", damnit!) are my favourite batrogues, Scarecrow more so than Ra's.