Monday, April 6, 2009

Top 15 Worst Heroes Becoming Villains

15 Heroes who should never have been bad guys.

And yes, I know about Superdickery.com, no need to point out that Superman is evil every other issue. ^_~




EDIT: Comments closed due to overwhelming amount of spambots.

92 comments:

DaftRaider42 said...

That first minute made me pee with fear... and incontinence, but we won't go into that now... or ever.

Alex Stritar said...

Wow. So the reason behind most heroes becoming villians is editors? You would think Marvel and DC would learn after the 12th time it happens.

Premier Blah said...

You forgot the credit for the jazz music you used. What was it?

日本文化のマニアック said...

I only finished "No Man's Land" a few months ago..../that's/ what they did to Cassandra Cain? Those bastards!!

SynjoDeonecros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ezim93 said...

Not bad Linkara. This reminds of tow other things
1) About a year ago, Transformers had a fan publication in which the Autobots where evil and the Decepticons were Good. I haven't read it but luckily it takes place in an alternate universe
2) The Superman ride in Six Flags New England is now becoming Bizarro. I'm not sure of this but the coaster was based on a hero and it's now being based on a villain.
BTW, I'm pretty sure that your one time catchphrase will become a catchphrase

anthony said...

I laughed till my lungs exploded! Wow. Never realized how fucked up Marvel and DC where. Now I know!
Hate to see how bad Image is.

vecar said...

Wow, what a collaboration of EXTREMEly stupid ideas that was. And I've never even heard about Cassandra Cain, but she sounds like a really interesting character. For how long did she stay mute?

It's a good thing that that's not gonna become your new catchphrase, because it's sounds forced and I don't think you really need one. IMO the best outro is your usual 'this comic sucks!' routine, followed by throwing a comic on a couch and walking away.

Although I don't care that much about superheroine's uselessly revealing clothes (I find Emma Frost's costume really hot and I wouldn't want it any other way), your 'mathematics' bit was spot on. And Goblin Queen's (haven't heard of her either) outfit was absolutely ridiculous even by mine loose 'standards'.

Also, I found this episode's tone very nice, because every position you start out calm and restrained and don't carry over your anger. I think that your critique is very well thought out and when you're delivering it in a calm manner you sound with greater authority. That's not to say I don't find your angry bits entertaining, rightful and very well-done, I just thought that this episode's change of pace was very welcome (especially after amazons attack spectacular angerfest).

All in all, another great episode - thank you very much from a russian fan

Queen Anthai said...

You forgot the credit for the jazz music you used. What was it?

Since I own that track, I'll go ahead and say that it's "I Want To Be Evil" by Eartha Kitt.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"For how long did she stay mute?" Well, admittedly she was only COMPLETELY mute for a few issues, but her first word was "No," (IIRC), but after that she slowly began to use more words. However, a metahuman innocently rearranged portions of her brain when she encountered him and was able to think and do more with words... but at the time, it cost her her body-reading abilities.

After recovering them thanks to Lady Shiva, she slowly began to speak more and more, though reading was still a challenge due to a unique form of dyslexia she was suffering from. However, during the missing year between Infinite Crisis and her being drugged, she apparently underwent training through ESL classes and related courses that helped her, which was partially used to explain why she was so chatty in Robin #150.

Anonymous said...

Nice list Lewis, but ummm... what about Sailor Saturn/Mistress 9 from Sailor Moon? Doesn't that count as a hero becoming a villain?

Paul S. said...

Great list but one pretty glaring flaw. I think Tony Star's turn into a villain in the pages of Avengers: The Crossing not only should have made the list it should have been in the top 3. We're talking about a turn that was every bit as dumb as Hal Jordan's in Emerald Twilight without the redeeming value of introducing Kyle.

The Crossing revealed that Tony Stark had been a sleeper agent for Kang for years and that his alcoholism and other problems were the result of Kang's mental manipulation. This lead to a tangled mess of storylines that were essentially ignored during the Heroes Reborn experiment and not resolved for almost two years.

Also the hero-to-villain turn by Tony and the introduction of "Iron Teen" might have been politically motivated. Rumor is that either Len Kaminsky or Terry Kavanagh felt uncomfortable writing a capitalist in a heroic light.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

Both were always planned to turn good again.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

As for the Crossing, since it's not considered in-contnuity, I decided to not do it.

Anonymous said...

Really? I didn't even think about that. Thanks for telling Lewis. And speaking of Sailor Moon, think you can do a review on the first Sailor Moon manga called Codename: Sailor V?

SynjoDeonecros said...

Sorry for the delete and repost; I realized my previous response was a little too long-winded and seemed to steal the spotlight from you, so let's try again:

I'm not much of a comics reader, but I have heard of most of these hero-turned-villain stories, and I agree that they were horrible, from what little I know of them. Especially the whole Magneto/Xorn thing; that convoluted story made my head hurt.

From what I've seen of this site, it seems like you mainly stick with the main DC and Marvel comics and don't usually venture much into the smaller, lesser-known comic companies, so you probably don't read any of Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog run. If you do, though, have you checked out their recent attempt to turn Knuckles evil? God, if that doesn't deserve to be on this list, I dunno where it deserves to be.

Truce Weston said...

Great list there dude! Simply awesome video! I didn't even know about some of them before, and a few just slipped my mind. Great list! You could probably even do one of the top 15 heroes doing bad things alone!

BTW, that is a good ending catch phrase dude!

So until the deleted scene from Wonder Woman of her screaming out "I am a man!" and punching Ares in the guts hits Youtube, MAKE MINE LINKARA!

Paul S. said...

Actually The Crossing still is in continuity... partially. In Avengers Forever it was revealed that everything was Imortus's fault, not Kang's and that Stark had been mindcontrolled for only a few months.

Iron Man killing Marilla and the Rita DeMara Yellowjacket is still totally cannon.

Anonymous said...

Great list. Do you think we'll see a reverse version of the best comic book heel turns?

Omac said...

y'know, Paul Dini is going to write cassandra cain in streets of gotham. So, shes in good hands.

bojak90 said...

Okay, as I've stated in previous posts I never read much DC as a kid, so I never knew much about a lot of these characters, that being said:

Superboy Prime: Oh god...I want to see a comic where he gets beaten by being repeatedly bitch-slapped. Like you said, he could have been an amazing tragic villain but he became such an unsympathetic whiny punk. I also agree that Crisis on Infinite Earths had a solid, satisfying conclusion for Kal-l, Alex Luthor, Superboy Prime, and Earth-2 Lois Lane...pisses me off.

Jason Todd: Like you said, he's still a punk. Also, didn't he beat up Tim Drake (didn't read it, just heard about it). I was confused by that because I always thought that Tim Drake has had a longer tenure as Robin and was better than Jason Todd.

Sue Storm: I hate Reed Richards...arrogant, unlikeable...robot Thor making, preregistration spewing...wait, what was I talking about? Oh, that costume was stupid. Should a put an invisible bowel over his head and watched him turn blue. At least the dick got his ass handed to him during WWH.

Cassandra Cain: I actually did follow this character and it pissed me right the f' off. She had an amazing journey and development as a character and then...well you summed it up perfectly.

As for the editors who made the call on a lot of these: If you haven't read all of a character's books or read a good amount and written for the character DON'T DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH A CHARACTER!

Once again Linkara, a very enjoyable and honest video

Anonymous said...

I love the new catchphrase bit.

Anonymous said...

Where can I find the Batgirl webcomic you mentioned?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

You can find it here. The early stuff is very scratchy and it's done in MSPaint, but it's hilarious.

Engineered said...

Poor poor DC. I`m new to comics so I have to ask you, does DC at least redeems itself for all those screw-ups that they seem to be doing(not only referring to those in this video)?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. ^^;

mightysamurai said...

Mephisto wanting to take Spider-Man's marriage rather than his soul is really more illustrative of Joe Quesada's theological ignorance than anything else.

Contrary to popular belief, the Devil is not interested in causing suffering. His goal is corrupting people so he can claim their souls. And while suffering and hardship is usually the result of said moral corruption, the Devil isn't the one who causes suffering and hardship, mankind is.

The idea that Mephisto (who is quite obviously just a convenient stand-in for the Christian Devil) wouldn't be interested in claiming Spider-Man's soul because it annoys him when people "suffer righteously" is just ridiculous on the face of it and indicative of theological ignorance on the part of Joe Quesada.

mightysamurai said...

1) About a year ago, Transformers had a fan publication in which the Autobots where evil and the Decepticons were Good. I haven't read it but luckily it takes place in an alternate universe

I think you're referring to Shattered Glass. Basically the Transformers Comics' version of the Bearded Spock Universe.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Shattered_Glass

I haven't read it either but I'm told that as Transformers comics go it's not half bad.

Anonymous said...

Why not mention Tony Stark? Civil War really screwed him over. Betraying his friends, locking them up and just being a asshole should earn him a spot.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

I considered it, but I let that fall into "villainous behavior" but not flat-out villain. I had to cut the original paragraph where I talked about it due to time.

Anonymous said...

as for the Joe Quesada OMD, maybe he was so upset at with what the Marvel editors wanted hejust came up with the most insanely stupid idea just to spite them? He was like muh ha ha I'll make spiderman make a deal with the devil! Or maybe he just got lazy and said meh deal with the devil, magic, science, aliens, drugs, mind control same dif.

J-Naps said...

I can't believe i never thought of it that way before, but you were absolutely right.

Only a comic fan could ever, EVER, believe that a parasitic bug from space infected someone to turn them evil, completely change their character, cause them to go on a murderous rampage, kill his friends, loved ones, and mentors, and be the source of the green lantern's one weakness...yellow.

With all the good faith we put into the writers and the storylines, it really is amazing when someone can screw up a character as badly as was shown here.

Great review as always.

Aishman said...

You know, as I generally like Bendis' work as Ultimate Spider-man is probably the only good Ultimate comic, Powers is pretty good, and I generally enjoy New Avengers but the way he made Scarlett Witch be a crazy villain is just so bad. As much as I liked House of M, the build-up to it was just bad as it was just filled with so many discontinuities. I mean, I know it was probably the editor's choice but they could've handled it so much better which is what really hurts I think.

DigiRanma said...

I maybe wrong in this, but didn't Wanda remember her kids when the Wasp off handily mentioned her kids?

As for what you said about an editorial choice, who in the right minds of DC comics thought turning Cassandra evil was a good idea if not the writer? Shouldn't this have told the people running the company "Uh, maybe we should let the writers write..."

Cr! said...

Amazing video! Billiant move using the issues as numbers.

I didn't really know about any of those events.

But how about Alex Power stealing his siblings powers, going from
"Zero-G" to "Power House"?

Coop said...

You really don't like "One More Day" do you?

Pretty good list but I'm surprised you didn't have Professor X when he became Onslaught, or Alfred when he became The Outsider.

Also, I think Nightwing only took up the Renegade identity in order to infiltrate Lex Luthor's band of supercriminals so technially he never really turned bad.

Jesse Haller said...

Nice list over all. But I have to disagree on Hal Jordan becoming Parallax.

Jordan, in his grief, wanted to remake Coast City with his ring. The Guardians condemned his use of power. Jordan, feeling that the Guardians had been ungrateful, and you know, still filled with an untold amount of grief, decided to attack them and take control of the Central Battery, as well as the other rings. With enough power he planned on rewriting history so that Coast City wouldn't have been destroyed. He justified killing anybody under the pretends that he would bring them back when he rewrote history.

Jordan wasn't a villain for the sake of being evil. He still saw himself a hero, he was trying to save the lives of those lost in Coast City. He was out of his f'ing mind with grief.

After his super friends stopped him, he dealt with his grief and realized how insane he had been. He returned and gave his life to save the world, and die a hero blah blah blah...

Anyway. His becoming a villain felt natural. The whole time he thought he was doing the right thing, he thought he was a hero.

The retcon possessing yellow bug thing is silly.

Jordan picked the name Parallax because of it's meaning:
"the effect whereby the position or direction of an object appears to differ when viewed from different positions"

He felt he was seeing the world, and his power, from a new angle.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

I considered Professor X becoming Onslaught, but when I looked into the Onslaught TPB, it looked more and more like it wasn't really him, just a manifestation of his psyche.

Xander Kannon said...

(Spoiler Free version of a comment I was making.)
I had been saying "(your #1), (your #1)" since I saw it was there, and lo and behold...

Reepicheep-chan said...

God I hated that whole Zorn thing.

mightysamurai said...

Anyway. His becoming a villain felt natural.

I disagree. If it had been almost any other hero in the DC universe, THEN it would have felt natural. But Green Lantern? The man without fear? The hero with the most invincible, iron-clad will on the planet Earth? The man so often described as the greatest Green Lantern ever? If anything, Hal Jordan should be the last hero to suddenly snap and go on a killing spree in response to some personal traumatic event.

The retcon possessing yellow bug thing is silly.

Yeah, kinda. But it had to be done.

CoreyFlanagan said...

What frustrated me about the whole Mephisto thing is that I was waiting for him to stiff Spidey like he did Ghost Rider. "Oh yeah, I'll save your Aunt May from that sniper attack..." *two seconds later she dies of natural causes* After that didn't happen, it hit me that clearly Joe Q. didn't really care as long as he got his image of what Spider-Man was supposed to be.

Oh, and thank you for touching on the ridiculous backstory that is Jean Grey. I've never cared for the character and he constant deaths and rebirths just further water her down for me.

Lord Seth said...

If you do, though, have you checked out their recent attempt to turn Knuckles evil? God, if that doesn't deserve to be on this list, I dunno where it deserves to be.

Wait huh...HUH?

If you're talking about issues #181-184, how was that him turning evil? It was established that he was brainwashed in order for it to work, and it lasted all of...four issues before they brought him back.

That's absolutely nothing like anything in this list. It was clearly not by choice at the start (unlike I believe all of these other examples, which were by choice but may have been retconned as brainwashing), and didn't last that long. I can't see how that would possibly qualify for this list.

Dave said...

Nice video. You said it was hard for new readers to get into comics, how could I ease myself into it?

Mela said...

I knew from the preview picture we'd disagree on Superboy-Prime. He didn't really do anything in the original Crisis, so I didn't feel a damn thing for his happy ending. And yes, he is a strawman version of the worst comic fans, but let's face it - some of us are crazy. I had to explain to someone once why threatening Judd Winick's life because you don't like his writing isn't appropriate, and I'm not a Winick fan at all. This attitude, frankly, deserves all the mockery the world can create.

Legion of 3 Worlds is, so far, some of the best stuff they've done with S-Boy Prime: he talks smack to Mordru (who can warp reality), he mocks Universo's ridiculous monocle, he manages to unite the Legion's many villains (many of whom hate each other almost as much as the Legion), and he killed Myg (the pathetic replacement Karate Kid). That last one put him on my good list forever.

Other than that, though, great list. I'd put Raven higher, personally.

SynjoDeonecros said...

"Wait huh...HUH?

If you're talking about issues #181-184, how was that him turning evil? It was established that he was brainwashed in order for it to work, and it lasted all of...four issues before they brought him back.

That's absolutely nothing like anything in this list. It was clearly not by choice at the start (unlike I believe all of these other examples, which were by choice but may have been retconned as brainwashing), and didn't last that long. I can't see how that would possibly qualify for this list."

Well, for one, it was the ultimate evolution of the writers' attempts to make Knuckles out to be a power-hungry maniac; in case you've forgotten, "Mobius: 25 Years Later" and its preliminary storyline (the one that had Lara-Su go back in time to prevent Knux' death, only to find out he faked it and became evil) had Knux go willingly evil after gaining vast amounts of Chaos Emerald energy. It's like the writers get off on turning Knuckles evil. Oh, and did I mention this was all after Knux' stint as Chaos Knuckles, a living Chaos Emerald that proved that he could have that much power and not turn evil?

Second, wasn't Knuckles led to become Enerjak after being told most of the Echidnas were wiped out in a joint Eggman/Dingoes attack, and only Enerjak could prevent their complete annihilation? Even though Knux was ultimately kept under control by a spell, he did step into the role willingly to avenge his people and prevent their utter destruction.

Third...look at Linkara's list. See the entry for Sue Storm becoming Malice? Yeah, it was the exact same thing as Knux becoming Enerjak, with her becoming manipulated and brainwashed. Yes, brainwashed, as the guy who turned her evil - Psycho-Man - can manipulate emotions to such a degree that he can make you feel whatever he wants you to feel. So, yeah, even though Knux-as-Enerjak was always intended to be from him being half-brainwashed instead of the brainwash thing being added in as a retcon, as Sue-as-Malice has demonstrated, that doesn't need to be a requirement, just as long as the hero turns villainous.

If that's not a good enough explanation for you, then how about this as a #2: Fiona Fox turning evil, simply because she fell for bad-boy Scourge. To be fair, her history has shown that she has a bit of a bad streak as a former thief, but once she joined the Freedom Fighters, it looked like she was well on her way to redemption. We don't even get any hints that she's in a relationship with Scourge until the guy joined up with Dr. Finitevus (the same guy who helped turn Knux into Enerjak), except for some throwaway lines that she's been ditching more and more missions and disappearing. Hell, she even tried to get into a relationship with the real Sonic once she found out Scourge was an alternate-reality copy, giving everyone the impression that she may have been tricked into falling for Scourge by the confusion over whether or not he was the real one. The whole thing just fell into our lap with little to no lead-up, and the spontaneously evil actions she engaged in right after she was exposed (like backhanding Tails through a wall when he tried to talk her out of it) was equally out of left field.

Jesse Haller said...

"I disagree. If it had been almost any other hero in the DC universe, THEN it would have felt natural. But Green Lantern? The man without fear? The hero with the most invincible, iron-clad will on the planet Earth?"

The man without fear is Daredevil. HJ could OVERCOME any fear. But fear has nothing to do with grief... they are two different emotions. His ability to over come fear is a reason why he WOULD become Parallax. He did not fear the Guardians.

An iron-clad will is another reason why he WOULD become Parallax. Once set in his will to take power and rewrite history... it took everyone to stop him. Only then was he able to reflect on what he did.

If HJ had such an "iron-clad will" he would have been the last person to be able to be possessed. He would have been able to fight it.

"The man so often described as the greatest Green Lantern ever? If anything, Hal Jordan should be the last hero to suddenly snap and go on a killing spree in response to some personal traumatic event."

He never let the job get to him. The last one you would expect. Isn't that what we hear about every cop or soldier that snaps? If you NEVER let the job get to you, and hold it all in... it will build up and you will snap. HJ was the perfect person for this to happen to.

Again... he didn't think he was going on a "killing spree". He thought people were standing in the way of his "iron-clad will" to bring back Coast City. Anyone that stood up against his "iron-clad will" would have been brought back when he rewrote time.

"'The retcon possessing yellow bug thing is silly.'
Yeah, kinda. But it had to be done."

No it didn't.
Hal Jordan didn't HAVE to be brought back. He had found peace in the afterlife as the new Spectre.

Just WANTING to bring him back... there is no reason to go back and make that crap up. They retcon'ed for no other reason then to retcon. It's just as bad as any of the stuff Marvel does.

Ghostmayhem said...

Wow, was that really Eartha Kitt?
I Knew it sounded familiar!
Really, great choice of song (though hearing the same line 15 times got a Bit on my nerves).
Not only is it a great tribute to a recently deceased icon, but she was Catwoman! So everything ties together!!
And great list. Sure, there were a few small things you could've mentioned, but it's your list, not ours... ;)

Mundilfari said...

Oh god i remember the batgirl thing. I thought most of the comic were really, REALLY awesome. And then this horrible, HORRIBLE twist in the end. That made me sad...

Anonymous said...

I've never read a real comic before in my life, and yet, somehow, I find Linkara's videos very entertaining. I had no idea that comics had such eff'd up story lines.

I mean good Lord. Some of these heel turns are for completely illogical reasons. I know that people don't often turn to superhero comics and expect gripping realism, but I know enough about some comic characters to know that some of the villain turns are completely wrong.

Plus, you're right. Why do female supervillains always wear revealing clothing most of the time? I don't really mind it, but still.

Well, enough of my uninformed hypocrisy. Kepp on rockin', Linkara.

Lord Seth said...

Well, for one, it was the ultimate evolution of the writers' attempts to make Knuckles out to be a power-hungry maniac; in case you've forgotten, "Mobius: 25 Years Later" and its preliminary storyline (the one that had Lara-Su go back in time to prevent Knux' death, only to find out he faked it and became evil) had Knux go willingly evil after gaining vast amounts of Chaos Emerald energy. It's like the writers get off on turning Knuckles evil. Oh, and did I mention this was all after Knux' stint as Chaos Knuckles, a living Chaos Emerald that proved that he could have that much power and not turn evil?

First off, you said "recent attempt". The part you're referring to, about Knuckles becoming evil after absorbing the power of the emeralds or whatnot was like seven years ago. Not only is that not recent, it pretty much flat-out said it was an alternate universe future. Which was a fairly weak and confusing ending, but that is what it seemed to say.

Second, wasn't Knuckles led to become Enerjak after being told most of the Echidnas were wiped out in a joint Eggman/Dingoes attack, and only Enerjak could prevent their complete annihilation? Even though Knux was ultimately kept under control by a spell, he did step into the role willingly to avenge his people and prevent their utter destruction.

...so how is that evil? He didn't know doing so would turn him evil. He got tricked (Knuckles getting tricked? What else is new?) but that makes him gullible at worst, not evil.

Third...look at Linkara's list. See the entry for Sue Storm becoming Malice? Yeah, it was the exact same thing as Knux becoming Enerjak, with her becoming manipulated and brainwashed. Yes, brainwashed, as the guy who turned her evil - Psycho-Man - can manipulate emotions to such a degree that he can make you feel whatever he wants you to feel. So, yeah, even though Knux-as-Enerjak was always intended to be from him being half-brainwashed instead of the brainwash thing being added in as a retcon, as Sue-as-Malice has demonstrated, that doesn't need to be a requirement, just as long as the hero turns villainous.

...except Linkara's problem wasn't so much the turning evil as the sexism involved, that is, her costume suddenly becoming skimpier and also Reed Richards' "we indulged your foolish female outbursts" line.

If that's not a good enough explanation for you, then how about this as a #2: Fiona Fox turning evil, simply because she fell for bad-boy Scourge. To be fair, her history has shown that she has a bit of a bad streak as a former thief, but once she joined the Freedom Fighters, it looked like she was well on her way to redemption. We don't even get any hints that she's in a relationship with Scourge until the guy joined up with Dr. Finitevus (the same guy who helped turn Knux into Enerjak), except for some throwaway lines that she's been ditching more and more missions and disappearing. Hell, she even tried to get into a relationship with the real Sonic once she found out Scourge was an alternate-reality copy, giving everyone the impression that she may have been tricked into falling for Scourge by the confusion over whether or not he was the real one. The whole thing just fell into our lap with little to no lead-up, and the spontaneously evil actions she engaged in right after she was exposed (like backhanding Tails through a wall when he tried to talk her out of it) was equally out of left field.

I think Dan Drazen gave the best phrasing of how I felt about her Face Heel Turn:
"Whatever you think of this change in Fiona's personality, at least it's clear she finally HAS one!"

It could've been pulled off a little more gracefully but I'll take evil Fiona over over the previously bland Fiona.

SynjoDeonecros said...

@ Lord Seth

First of all, how long ago and whether it was in an alternate future makes no difference; the fact remains that this is the third time the writers have tried to make Knuckles evil with power, and all of those attempts were done after they had a whole story of him as a living Chaos Emerald that proved he can have that much power and not turn evil. That, to me, isn't a coincidence; either the writers or the editors (or both) were deliberately trying to mandate Knuckles' turn to evil.

Second, you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to state, here; much like Susan's stint as Malice, Knuckles was suffering from extenuating and painful circumstances when he was manipulated into becoming Enerjak, circumstances that made it easier for that manipulation to happen; yes, he was tricked, but from what I remember of the plotline, he walked willingly into the trap - he knew of the Echidna decimation, and was convinced that regaining his Chaos powers was the best and possibly only way of stopping the slaughter. You tend to be a little desperate when something like that happens, so while it may not have been an evil act, per se, it wasn't entirely brainwashing, either. To wit, here's what the Sonic Comic wiki has to say about the incident:

"The new Enerjak was later revealed to be none other than Knuckles. Earlier, when he had come back to Angel Island to liberate it from the Dingoes and patch things up with his father, the Destructix ambushed and captured him. They then handed him over to the Flame and Frost Legions, whom in turn handed him over to Dr. Finitevus, Lien-Da, and the Frost Legion's Grandmaster, Remington. Knuckles demanded an explanation from Finitevus for Remington's apparent amnesia, and the doctor explained how he had saved Remington from Eggman's Egg Grapes, which had drained him of his memories. Finitevus then told Knuckles 90% of the Echidna population had been slain by the Eggman Empire, including those in Albion, (though Finitevus left out that he was the one responsible for the death of the Echidnas in Albion) leaving Knuckles speechless. The doctor continued to explain how he had got Lien-Da and Remington to work together as long as each of them got some of the Master Emerald's power so they could crush the Dingoes. But Knuckles, thinking it was his responsibility to stop the Dingoes, started taking the Master Emerald's power. Lien-Da and Remington tried to stop him, but Finitevus revealed how Knuckles taking the Master Emerald's power was part of his plan. Lien-Da and Remington then quickly retreated to rally their forces against this new threat, as Finitevus convinced Knuckles (who had taken most of the Master Emerald's power and was now brainwashed by a spell Finitevus put on the emerald) to become the new Enerjak."

See? That, right there, clearly states that, while Knux might have been maneuvered into becoming Enerjak, he willingly stepped into it to save his people, much like how Hal Jordan willingly became Parallax to resurrect his city, and possibly would've gone nuts, regardless, out of grief and anger towards what had happened.

Third, I've actually watched the cartoon adaptation of the Susan-as-Malice storyline, and the reasons behind Reed's treatment of her actually made sense; she was being fed a constant diet of false hate from Psycho-Man, so the only way to break his influence over her was to have her feel real hate, the real emotion overriding the false ones. I agree that the costume was rather ridiculous, but getting a brainwashed person worked up enough for their real feelings to override their mental programming isn't anything new.

Finally, Fiona Fox as a villain, in my opinion, is just as boring as she was before her turn to evil. What has she done since turning bad? Bitchslapped Tails and becoming a dutiful little hanger-on to Scourge. Oh, and whining about how she can't trust anyone. Hell, I find absolutely no difference in her personality whatsoever, pre or post-change. I've read most of the stories focusing on her, and she never did anything before or after her turn to evil to make her particularly interesting. Oh, sure, you can say that being evil gives her more personality...but without any action from her to show how she's evil, that's not saying much.

looking2dastars said...

Good list, but one slight correction re: Magneto.

It wasn't Magneto pretending to be some other guy who turned out to really exist (i.e. Xorn). It was Xorn's evil twin brother PRETENDING to be Magneto PRETENDING to be Xorn.

Seriously - that was Chris Claremont's official explanation several months later in Excalibur when Professor X left to rebuild Genosha, Magneto showed up to help and he needed a way to explain just why Magneto was still drawing breath after being beheaded. And it enabled them to keep Xorn around by revealing that he was still alive... but that nobody really knew him!

Yeah. This is why I stopped reading X-Men books after Grant Morrison left Marvel.

Lord Seth said...

Debating point by point will just result in overly long messages that I'm betting most people here wouldn't even understand, so let's get to the heart of the matter. What is it that was so horrible about Knuckles' transformation into Enerjak? I thought it was overall a decent story line. My main complaint was that I felt it was drawn out; it could've definitely been reduced to three issues instead of the four it was. But other than that, I simply don't see why it would even be a runner-up to the list, let alone on it.

The House of C.R.P said...

Now, I read about Mary Marvel on Tv Tropes, and (I don't want to read Countdown again to see this, I was confused enough attempting to read the first volume) correct me if I am wrong, but did her second turn to evil go like this:

Mary: Well, I learned not to be utterly power hungry and I have been commended for my return to good! Won't be making that mistake again!
Darkseid: Want to tun evil again?
Mary: Sure.

And Cassandra Cain sounded like a brilliant character! Why would they think that the bull crap they did with her would be a good idea?! HONESTLY!!

SynjoDeonecros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SynjoDeonecros said...

"What is it that was so horrible about Knuckles' transformation into Enerjak? I thought it was overall a decent story line. My main complaint was that I felt it was drawn out; it could've definitely been reduced to three issues instead of the four it was. But other than that, I simply don't see why it would even be a runner-up to the list, let alone on it."

Again, sorry for the repost.

I've already stated my reasons why it needs to be on here: There was no point in doing it, they screwed up Knuckles' character doing it, they disregarded continuity while doing it, they were already shoving the concept down our throats by the time they got around to it, and what did we ultimately get? An overpowered, boring villain with an agenda that didn't make any sense to either his character, the reasons he became evil in the first place, or the ones who turned him evil. I've read the lead-up to the Knuxerjak storyline, and from what I can tell, you can easily just replace Knuckles with the mastermind behind the plot himself, and there would be little to no difference in how the story went.

1. I can't keep stressing this enough, they already tried twice before to make a "Knuckles is evil" story and get it to stick, and they all took place after Knux did his stint as Furry Jesus. That's not a coincidence, people; it doesn't matter how far apart these stories appeared or if the previous two attempts were written out of continuity, the fact remains that they kept on pushing the same story on us time and again until they finally got one in continuity, and didn't bother to look into the character's history deep enough before they did so; all the earmarks of an editorial mandate.

2. Knuxerjak's sudden hatred for technology was right out of the blue and didn't make any sort of sense whatsoever, period. We don't get an explanation for why he suddenly gained this position, and it isn't even consistent with the reasons why he became Enerjak, in the first place. How do you go from "I need to save my people from being exterminated" to "Technology is evil and unnecessary to world peace" in such a short amount of time, even with brainwashing? Hell, everything I've read about the character say the same thing: Knuxerjak's personality is just a twisted version of normal Knuckles', and I know for a fact through years of reading his stories that Knuckles is not technophobic. So what the hell?

3. They made him way too powerful. I know, this is Enerjak we're talking about, and Knux as Enerjak, two supremely powerful beings coming together as one, so you'd expect him to have omnipotence, but c'mon, the level of power they gave him was just ridiculous; killing an enemy via disintigration? Okay, the original did that, so that's consistent. Transmutating cybernetics into organics? Now you're starting to stretch believability. Bitchslapping Super Sonic and Shadow with his power inhibitors removed without breaking a sweat? That's just too much. There really wasn't any reason to do that, other than for the editors to masturbate over how unstoppable they can make their precious Evil Knuckles. It also provided a useless and unnecessary sacrifice from his dad.

4. As I said, I read the lead-up to the storyline, and it's clear to me that they were building up the mastermind behind Knuxerjak to become Enerjak, himself. His origin story was practically an exact copy of the origin story for the original Enerjak, for fuck's sake; he was primed to take the position. But, as I said before, editorial mandate demanded that Knuckles Must Suffer, so they scrapped that idea and made Knux Enerjak, instead. There would've been little difference in the story had they stuck with the original plan and made Dr. Finitivus Enerjak, seriously.

There really was no reason why Knux should have had to turn into Enerjak, in the first place; all it provided was yet another stupid story of Evil God Knuckles. And get this: the whole story did jack to the continuity. Oh, sure, there was some angsting from Knux over his actions, and his dad is now permanently dead, but other than that, it made absolutely no impact whatsoever on any of the other characters or the continuity as a whole. At least with some of the examples on this list, like Sue Storm becoming Malice or Hal Jordan becoming Parallax, the impact of their actions was lingering; here, nothing, which further proves that they should've just left Knuckles out of the equation altogether.

TheGoose said...

I, somewhat, liked your newest vid, but I feel that you, sometimes, spent most of your time complaining about something else completely instead of why a character's turn to evil made no sense. The Scarlet Witch, Hawk, Cassandra Cain, etc. made sense, but I feel that some of the characters you talked about (that I listed below) didn't really focus on why the character's becoming evil was stupid and some of your reasons on why the character's turn to evil didn't hold water.

Raven: I feel having Raven on your list doesn't make sense. Her turns to evil have always made sense. Trigon's evil essence always makes her evil. It may not be original, but it still makes sense.

Hal Jordan/Green Lantern: I'd agree with you on this one, but since Rebirth and the great stories Geoff Johns has written talking about Hal's possession and guilt over Parallex, I have to disagree.

Superboy-Prime: This is, again, a character, that doesn't belong on this list. The reasons for why Prime became a villian makes perfect sense. I also disagree on the massive hate on how Primes written. Let's remember that Prime isn't Superman, therefore he wouldn't be, as you said, "a dark tragic and restrained version of Superman," Prime is a young teenage comic fan who didn't grow up excatly like our own Superman. He acts that way because thats who he is, not Superman! Its true that Prime can be annoying when written badly, but when hes written right in Infinite Crisis and Legion of Three Worlds hes a great character. And the whole angry comic fan can work when its not his defining attitude. For people who hate it, I say, "Get a sense of humor."

Jason Todd: You didn't really give any reason why his turn to villianary is bad, you just spent most of the time complaing (rightly, but misplaced reasons on) how hes been used as a character.

Maxwell Lord: Max was one of my favorite supporting characters in comics. He was a sly slyster who was the League's manager. I just love how he plays off all the characters and how its funny that the League actually had a manager. You say that Max did questionible things, but he was a good guy. Even though, in his origin, he plotted the death of a businessman to get his postion and hired some terrorists (who could have easily killed lots of people) and eventually sacrificed the leader to get the League under his thumb. Yeah, that sounds like a hero, right? I may not like that Max became a villian, but the reasons I just showed show that Max wasn't all that good show that its feasible that he was trying to control the League for his own benefits. Plus, your critsim on how Max's point of, "saving humans from superheroes," makes no sense since Max is a guy with super-powers is addressed in the issue when he turned evil. Didn't Max say, "I can be trusted?" I agree that the whole Manhunter scanning Max's mind doesn't make sense, but I'm certain that might get retconned someday if the writers ever address it.

Magneto: Confusing as it was, the reasons for why he turned evil still made sense.

One thing I really appauld in your vid is how you act angry and make it funny. When the Nostaglia Critis and the Angry Video Game Nerd do it, it doesn't work, its too serious and not over-the-top to be funny. Sometimes, I think you've fallen into the same trap in your other vids, but you did great this time.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

Fair enough, but most of the reasons I had for them are not so much that they DO become evil, but rather how they're presented when they do.

Jason Todd had some halfway decent stories, but they got lost in the shuffle of Infinite Crisis and as a recurring villain for Batman he was underutilized. Cass could've made an excellent tragic villain, but instead we got daddy-issues-and-Navajo. Parallax I left in because that retcon came over ten years later and it was always their intention to make him evil and keep him evil.

Saisinkolimonadin said...

Hal Jordan's sudden intergalactic killing spree might've been a stupid idea, but MAN THAT'S A COOL COVER(the one where he grins manically while wearing all the power rings)!

Lord Seth said...

Point 1: The original "Knuckles is evil" "story" you're referring to took up like two panels, and was a reference to an alternate universe's future. Let's keep alternate universes out of this; otherwise you're going to have to say Scourge is a "Sonic turns evil" story. The other one, the 25 Years Later one, you may have a point about, however.

You do claim that "Knuckles had this happen to him before and didn't turn evil", and that is true. He wasn't being controlled at that time either, so that point is fairly moot for this arc.

Point 2: Right on page 10 of issue #184, Dr. Fin says--word for word--"The hex I placed upon the Master Emerald binds it to my will. The minute Knuckles tapped into its power, his intentions became bent to my ideals."

That explains Knuckles' change in attitude. Of course, that does bring up the fact that Sonic wasn't affected...Dr. Fin mentions this but I don't recall if it was ever answered. If not, then that IS something to be annoyed about.

Point 3: Okay, I'm confused here. You claim he was "bitchslapping Super Sonic", but from what I could tell the match between Super Sonic and Knuckles-Enerjak was fairly close. Far from a "bitchslapping".

Point 4: Do you have any evidence as to that that was the "original plan" other than your speculations? I'm generally very skeptical of whether something is the "original plan" unless I see a direct statement by a writer, editor, or someone else who was involved in it.

Lastly:

it made absolutely no impact whatsoever on any of the other characters or the continuity as a whole.

It caused the Dark Legion to join up with Eggman and also (I believe) resolved the plot about all the conflict on the Floating Island.

If you need an example of something that really DID have no impact on anything, the "Mammoth Mogul gets Sonic captured" in issues #187 and 188 is a far better example. The only thing in those issues that was at all important was the last few pages of issue 188 (which set up the alternate universe attack), which had absolutely no relation to the rest of those two issues.

Laughing Hyena said...

@ SynjoDeonecros and Lord Seth

Off-Topic:
I'm pretty amused at both your arguments over the Archie Sonic comic series, as I used to be a reader of it.

I slowly stopped reading after Archie decided to screw over a created character they made that I liked: Valdez.
Sure, what he did was heroic, but then we no longer had someone making funny sarcastic comments over one of the biggest jerks in the series: St. John.
After all, he was forced against his will to become part of St. John's team just because John thought, "We really need a chameleon, cause they are always stereotyped for stealth characters.".

As someone who likes them, that is such an annoying animal stereotype. At least Bloody Roar (Not a great fighting series) deiced to be oringal with Busuzima.

Since I've long dropped it, I have some questions for you two guys:
What ever happened to the Chaotix? Cause it seemed like they decided to not even show much of what was going on at the Floating Island once Knuckles did his Chaos Emerald/Furry Jesus stint.
And you would think they would be there to help stop an evil Knuckles. That would be a reversal, as I remembered when Knuckles gave them a beat down when they were controlled by Enerjak.

In the Knuckles mini-series, what about the off-hand comment made by one of the Thugs or was it the Rabbit guy about chameleons? I think this was in the story where Charmy Bee's friend dies or is sick. Because they make it sound like there are Chameleons living elsewhere besides from the Floating Island. But in the Valdez sub-plot, Robotnik/Eggman states that Valdez is the first chameleon to ever be robotized. And I've never seen them but on the Floating Island, to the point of not even socializing with the other Islanders. So what's the deal?
Because that detail confuses me a lot.

Hell, it might be even amusing if the Knothole Kingdom once employed chameleons in the War with the Overlanders, and they got screwed over in the deal.
Then again, knowing Archie: They have probably forgotten the Overlander plotline. And just went, "Hey! Humans have been hiding under our noses the whole time! Those four finger human guys that invaded Mobius? Uh, who were they again?".

mightysamurai said...

The man without fear is Daredevil. HJ could OVERCOME any fear.

That's a retcon resulting from Green Lantern: Rebirth. Originally Hal Jordan was also known as "the man without fear".

But fear has nothing to do with grief... they are two different emotions.

And both of them are overcome by willpower, something Hal Jordan is supposed to have in spades.

Seriously, Hal Jordan suddenly snapping and turning evil because he was overcome with grief makes absolutely no sense. The mere fact that he was chosen to be a Green Lantern proves that he has the emotional strength necessary to overcome stuff like that, but Hal Jordan was also the GREATEST Green Lantern. To have him suddenly go insane with grief is just a massive character derailment.

He never let the job get to him. The last one you would expect. Isn't that what we hear about every cop or soldier that snaps? If you NEVER let the job get to you, and hold it all in... it will build up and you will snap. HJ was the perfect person for this to happen to.

Oh nonsense. People don't flip out and kill people if they bottle up their emotions. It's a myth. It only happens when there's something else profoundly wrong with the person psychologically in the first place.

Hal Jordan didn't HAVE to be brought back.

Sez you. I wanted him back and I thought he made a terrible Spectre. Hal Jordan was NOT cut out to be the Spirit of Vengeance.

SynjoDeonecros said...

"Point 1: The original "Knuckles is evil" "story" you're referring to took up like two panels, and was a reference to an alternate universe's future. Let's keep alternate universes out of this; otherwise you're going to have to say Scourge is a "Sonic turns evil" story. The other one, the 25 Years Later one, you may have a point about, however."

The first example was during the last half of Knuckles' stint as Chaos Knuckles, it lasted more than 2 panels, and it was not intended to be an alternate universe history; Lara-Su went back in time from what was at the time the future of the main universe specifically to prevent Chaos Knuckles' assassination during the peace talks between the Legion and the Council of Elders; the only reason why it's not considered canon anymore, is because "Mobius 25 Years Later" and current stories have already ignored the plot points in it. Believe me, I've got one of the comics that has the first example in it with me right now (Issue #108, to be precise), so I know what I'm talking about, here.

"You do claim that "Knuckles had this happen to him before and didn't turn evil", and that is true. He wasn't being controlled at that time either, so that point is fairly moot for this arc."

That doesn't matter; all of the "Knux turns evil" stories all came out after the storyline where Knux gained that much power and didn't turn evil, so they would've pushed the story on us, brainwashed or not; the previous two attempts shows that, quite well.

"Point 2: Right on page 10 of issue #184, Dr. Fin says--word for word--"The hex I placed upon the Master Emerald binds it to my will. The minute Knuckles tapped into its power, his intentions became bent to my ideals."

That explains Knuckles' change in attitude. Of course, that does bring up the fact that Sonic wasn't affected...Dr. Fin mentions this but I don't recall if it was ever answered. If not, then that IS something to be annoyed about."

Supposedly, Super Sonic's "positive aura" was too pure for the spell to adhere to him...which brings up the question of why Knux, the Avatar of the Echidnas and veritable Green Furry Jesus, was. This is the guy who is so buddy-buddy with Aurora and the Ancient Walkers, that when the first Enerjak was tearing him apart at the molecular level, the Walkers intervened and reversed the process. If that's the case, then it makes no sense that Knux would be hit with the spell by using the Master Emerald to regain his power, while Sonic didn't when he did the exact same thing.

As for the spell warping Knux' views to what Dr. Fin thought...Dr. Fin wants the complete destruction of the world because he thinks it's corrupt, and believes Echidna society on both fronts never improved themselves through the civil war. He planned on using Knux as a doomsday device, not as a mighty smiter of tech. It also doesn't explain why Knux only exiled the Dingoes and left all of the Legion alive after removing their cybernetics; if Dr. Fin thought they were too corrupt and useless to live, then why influence Knux through the spell to make them live?

"Point 3: Okay, I'm confused here. You claim he was "bitchslapping Super Sonic", but from what I could tell the match between Super Sonic and Knuckles-Enerjak was fairly close. Far from a "bitchslapping"."

I checked the fight out, myself, and it looked to me like Sonic was pretty badly outmatched after the first few moments. And that doesn't even mention how easily he was able to take out Shadow without his power inhibitor bands. I know he's supposed to be a mind-controlled furry Jesus archetype, but c'mon, he's facing off against the two beings on the planet that could possibly screw with his powers, and he tosses them around like rag dolls? I don't think so.

"Point 4: Do you have any evidence as to that that was the "original plan" other than your speculations? I'm generally very skeptical of whether something is the "original plan" unless I see a direct statement by a writer, editor, or someone else who was involved in it."

No official word, no, but the indication is there through the backstory: Dr. Fin had a similar history to Dimitri (the first Enerjak), and had a similar incident with a similar device that gave him similar powers and a similar attitude towards the world. He was clearly meant to be an Enerjak expy, and in fact, he initially went to Dimitri with his plans on resurrecting the villain. You could've even completely removed Knux from the role, altogether, and put Dr. Fin there, instead, and except for a little tweaking with the ending and whatnot, the story would not have been changed much at all. Like I said, they had already tried twice before to make a "Knuckles is evil" storyline, and both were ultimately retconned out of continuity, so it's very likely they decided to make Dr. Fin turn him into Enerjak, on that purpose alone.

"Lastly:

it made absolutely no impact whatsoever on any of the other characters or the continuity as a whole.

It caused the Dark Legion to join up with Eggman and also (I believe) resolved the plot about all the conflict on the Floating Island."

So the Legion is in league with Eggman. Big whup. That just means they're still around and still an ever-present thorn in Knuckles' side, same as ever. As for the resolved conflict on the Floating Island, that's only because Knuxerjak, literally, shunted them off to parts of the Island where they would barely affect continuity - the Dingoes to a remote part of Sandopolis, the surviving Echidnas to rebuild Albion. They're going to be too preoccupied with their own isolation and life-rebuilding, so of course the conflict is going to be resolved. It actually kinda feels like the writers were saying "Well, they served their purpose here, time to shove them off to a forgotten corner of the continuity and let them rot". Other than that, all that really happened was that Locke is now dead and Knux went through a short self-punishment phase. It didn't even impact his relationship with most of the other characters, all that much, including Julie-Su.

@Laughing Hyena

I'm not sure what the comics are doing with the whole chameleon front, but from my research, it seems like the Chaotix have become mostly background characters, their latest big stint being part of the group captured by Eggman in his Egg Grape Chamber. Yeah, this is why I rarely catch up with the comics, myself.

Lord Seth said...

What ever happened to the Chaotix? Cause it seemed like they decided to not even show much of what was going on at the Floating Island once Knuckles did his Chaos Emerald/Furry Jesus stint.

They're currently working with the Freedom Fighters to bring down Robotnik.

And you would think they would be there to help stop an evil Knuckles. That would be a reversal, as I remembered when Knuckles gave them a beat down when they were controlled by Enerjak.

They did show up to try to stop Knuckles-as-Enerjak, but he defeated them all pretty easily.


In the Knuckles mini-series, what about the off-hand comment made by one of the Thugs or was it the Rabbit guy about chameleons? I think this was in the story where Charmy Bee's friend dies or is sick. Because they make it sound like there are Chameleons living elsewhere besides from the Floating Island. But in the Valdez sub-plot, Robotnik/Eggman states that Valdez is the first chameleon to ever be robotized. And I've never seen them but on the Floating Island, to the point of not even socializing with the other Islanders. So what's the deal? 
Because that detail confuses me a lot.

I believe the statement you're referring to this this: "A chameleon! Aren't you out of your element?" Which is fairly vague, but I can see how someone would take it the way you thought.



Then again, knowing Archie: They have probably forgotten the Overlander plotline. And just went, "Hey! Humans have been hiding under our noses the whole time! Those four finger human guys that invaded Mobius? Uh, who were they again?".

Sort of. They pretty much sent all the remaining overlanders to Station Square with the humans, and generally refer to them interchangeably.


The first example was during the last half of Knuckles' stint as Chaos Knuckles, it lasted more than 2 panels, and it was not intended to be an alternate universe history; Lara-Su went back in time from what was at the time the future of the main universe specifically to prevent Chaos Knuckles' assassination during the peace talks between the Legion and the Council of Elders; the only reason why it's not considered canon anymore, is because "Mobius 25 Years Later" and current stories have already ignored the plot points in it Believe me, I've got one of the comics that has the first example in it with me right now (Issue #108, to be precise), so I know what I'm talking about, here.

When I said "two panels" I was referring to the part where it said Knuckles turned evil in an alternate universe future (which lasted all of one page before never being brought up again), which I finally found thanks to your help zeroing in one which issue it was in (it was in issue #109). And here is the important parts of the script:
Lara-Su: I thought you said Constable Remington was the one who killed him [Knuckles], Mom--but it was really someone else!"
Alternate Future Julie-Su: That's not possible, darling! You must have experienced an alternate reality!
(skipping some irrelevant dialogue)
Alternate Future Julie-Su: In our reality's history, your father went berserk upon absorbing so much chaos energy! The echidna I once knew as Knuckles became the evil that is currently leading the Dark Legion into conquering the entire planet.

It's fairly obvious from that bit that somehow when traveling back in time, Lara-Su also switched universes (which makes little sense to be honest), meaning that everything she knew of the future was really an alternate universe's future. So them ignoring it for all other future stories makes sense because it was, again, an alternate universe's future. It was non-canon from the moment that statement was said.

I personally have always regarded the "25 years later" stories of just being "What if" stories because they mesh so badly with the comic proper. But you do have a point with the part from the 25YL story.

I checked the fight out, myself, and it looked to me like Sonic was pretty badly outmatched after the first few moments.

How so? Most of the fight was trading blows. Knuckles whacks Sonic, Sonic hits back at him. Knuckles zaps Sonic away, Sonic comes right back. Knuckles zaps then hits Sonic, Sonic hits Knuckles back. Sonic kicks Knuckles, Knuckles throttles Sonic. I just can't see any difference. If you tally it all up, it all comes to a draw, quite frankly. Neither one seemed to be doing any kind of decent damage to the other either other than at most temporarily stunning the other. So I'd say that Enerjak Knuckles is basically Hyper Knuckles (I think a character made that comparison), who's essentially at Super Sonic's strength of power.

And that doesn't even mention how easily he was able to take out Shadow without his power inhibitor bands. I know he's supposed to be a mind-controlled furry Jesus archetype, but c'mon, he's facing off against the two beings on the planet that could possibly screw with his powers, and he tosses them around like rag dolls? I don't think so.

I've missed some issues so I was a little confused as to what the inhibitor rings even were. Well, I mean, obviously they inhibit Shadow's power, but I'm not quite sure by what amount, or more specifically, how powerful he is without them compared to Super Sonic. But I'm going to venture a guess and say that he's not at the power level of Super Sonic; I think the only way he can get that strong is to be Super Shadow. So if Enerjak is at about Super Sonic's level of power--which makes sense because, as I just pointed out, they seemed at equal levels--and if Shadow is at a lower power than Super Sonic (which again makes sense, as I think the only way he can match that power is to become Super Shadow himself), it makes perfect sense that Enerjak would wipe the floor with Shadow.

Now, if Enerjak was a match for both Super Sonic AND Super Shadow simultaneously, then I would readily admit you have a point.

Jesse Haller said...

Over come stuff like that? I don't care how big of a "will power" someone has. Having your whole city destroyed... everything you knew.. all the people you loved... that would screw someone up. The only person it won't effect is a sociopath.

Hal Jordan didn't see a friend get killed... or AN innocent person or any of the other normal things soldiers go through. Having everyone you knew and loved destroyed isn't normal "stuff".

The man never had to deal with any real grief... let alone anything on this scale. Grief can make one act all kinds of ways. Hal Jordan killing people... AGAIN, cause he want to rewrite history... makes perfect sense. When Frank Castle goes nuts and kills people out of grief for his family it's okay? But NOT with Hal? Come on.

Hal Jordan being a Green Lantern is not proof of anything, the Guardians have made mistakes before. Sinestro was a Lantern at one time as well.

Hal Jordan was only a human, not a god among men.

Many people DO snap after years of exposure to trauma. Your claim of people having to be mentally ill in order to snap is unsound. People becomes mentally ill because of chemical unbalance and/or, guess what... trauma!

I wanted him back and I thought he made a terrible Spectre. Hal Jordan was NOT cut out to be the Spirit of Vengeance.

That's subjective.

You WANTED him back... as a logical story point, it didn't need to happen. After years of listening to fanboys whine and complain how their precious hero fell from grace, DC brought him back. At the end of the day fanboys want their heroes to stay the same.

I haven't read any of this Green Lantern: Rebirth stuff, cause it's fanboy return to the status quo crap.

Hal Jordan was the Greatest Green Lantern. In grief he preformed unspeakable acts. In a final act of goodness he gave his life to save the world, so he could die the hero he always was... That's a wonderful story. I don't get why people have SUCH a problem with it.

Being the Spectre Hal wasn't looking for vengeance... he was looking for redemption. He became a new kind of Spectre. If he wasn't going to be a new kind, then why make him the Spectre at all.

SynjoDeonecros said...

@ Lord Seth:

Here's the thing, though, with Knuckles' fight with Super Sonic and Shadow: both Sonic and Shadow can manipulate Chaos energy from its source. In fact, Shadow has a direct link to the source of all Chaos energy without having to rely on an external source (like the Master Emerald), and Sonic became Super in the first place as a way to drain Knuxerjak of his power source. Hell, in the past, they way they stopped the original Enerjak and planned on stopping Chaos Knuckles was to drain their Chaos power. You can't tell me that the two beings on the planet that can do that naturally couldn't have an affect on Knuxerjak. And before you tell me that it was the spell he was under that prevented that, that wasn't what happened; the spell only locked Knuckles under Dr. Fin's control - Dr. Fin still had to convince Knuckles to become Enerjak, so while they might not have been able to break him free from the mind control by draining him, they would've been able to weaken him enough to take him down.

Lord Seth said...

Phew! All this is really making me dig out my back issues!

Here's the thing, though, with Knuckles' fight with Super Sonic and Shadow: both Sonic and Shadow can manipulate Chaos energy from its source. In fact, Shadow has a direct link to the source of all Chaos energy without having to rely on an external source (like the Master Emerald),

But again, Shadow isn't as powerful as Super Sonic (as far as I understand), and if Super Sonic is on Enerjak/Knuckles' level (which makes perfect sense, as they got their power from the same thing), then it only makes sense that Shadow couldn't beat Enerjak/Knuckles.

and Sonic became Super in the first place as a way to drain Knuxerjak of his power source.

Weren't his exact words that he wanted to "beat" the evil out of Knuckles? The only explanation he gives beyond that is when he ponders "I don't get it. Why positive aura should've broken the dark magic by now." (Dr. Fin claims that the reason that didn't work was because he locked the hex) In any case, that isn't draining his power.

Hell, in the past, they way they stopped the original Enerjak and planned on stopping Chaos Knuckles was to drain their Chaos power.

Let's see how they defeated Enerjak:
1) The original time, when he first got the power, they beat him by collapsing a mountain on him. No draining.
2) The second time, when Knuckles faces off against him, they get him into a rocket and blast it off into space. No draining.
3) The third time, which is what I think you're talking about, Mammoth Mogul drained his energy with the Sword of Acorn, which IS draining, and worked. Actually, I think it's the only time they did successfully drain someone of energy like that successfully. But the Sword got destroyed in the Darkest Storm, so that's not possible anymore.
4) If we count Mammoth Mogul's absorption of Enerjak's power, they used the Chaos Syphon to try to drain him. Reasonable enough. He does manage to jump for the Master Emerald in order to refresh himself (which is actually what Enerjak-Knuckles did). So it seems it can be drained, sure, but as long as they refresh themselves on the Master Emerald before completely being drained they can keep fighting.

IIRC, Enerjak didn't show up for a while afterwards, so we turn over to Green Knuckles. And they did try to drain his power, though it 1) Didn't work and 2) The only reason they were able to even try was because they threatened to kill Charmy and Saffron if he didn't let them.

So draining the power of someone seems to be hit-or-miss, mostly miss.

You can't tell me that the two beings on the planet that can do that naturally couldn't have an affect on Knuxerjak.

Since when can Sonic or Shadow naturally drain power? Or are you talking about something else?

mightysamurai said...

The man never had to deal with any real grief

What? What the Hell are you talking about? HIS FATHER DIED IN A FIERY PLANE CRASH IN FRONT OF HIS EYES WHEN HAL WAS FIVE YEARS OLD.

Hal Jordan killing people... AGAIN, cause he want to rewrite history... makes perfect sense.

Sure it makes sense...if he's been possessed by a cosmic fear-being that's controlling his mind.

Hal Jordan being a Green Lantern is not proof of anything, the Guardians have made mistakes before. Sinestro was a Lantern at one time as well.

Apples and oranges. Sinestro didn't go insane due to personal trauma, he was corrupted by power.

Many people DO snap after years of exposure to trauma.

No, they don't. Emotional trauma can cause psychosis, but people do not live perfectly normal lives for years and then suddenly "snap". Ever. It's a complete myth. In every instance there were clear signs of psychological dysfunction that went ignored or unnoticed by observers, and they are ALWAYS perfectly clear after the fact.

At the end of the day fanboys want their heroes to stay the same.

And what's wrong with that?

I want Superman to remain a paragon of compassion, hope, and justice just as he's always been. Does that mean I'm not allowed to complain about something like Superman At Earth's End where Superman is turned into a stupid asshole who uses guns and kills enemies? Aren't I just complaining about changes made to a character?

I haven't read any of this Green Lantern: Rebirth stuff, cause it's fanboy return to the status quo crap.

So if you admit you haven't actually read the relevant material, what business do you have commenting on it? Why don't you try READING the story before judging it?

Hal Jordan was the Greatest Green Lantern. In grief he preformed unspeakable acts. In a final act of goodness he gave his life to save the world, so he could die the hero he always was... That's a wonderful story. I don't get why people have SUCH a problem with it.

I DON'T have a problem with it. The Final Night was a great series. I own the trade paperback. But I still wanted Hal back as Green Lantern, NOT as the Spectre or Parallax.

Being the Spectre Hal wasn't looking for vengeance... he was looking for redemption.

Which is precisely why Hal wasn't cut out to be the Spectre. The Spectre is the Spirit of Vengeance, not the Spirit of Redemption. Making Hal Jordan the Spectre betrayed the essences of both characters at once. Now I'm willing to forgive this since I'm reasonably certain it was all set up with the intent of resurrecting Hal properly later on, but the fact remains that Hal Jordan and the Spectre are simply unsuited to be the same person. The Spectre is dark and brutal, Hal Jordan is not.

Character conflict is one thing, but trying to jam a square peg into a round hole is another thing entirely.

SynjoDeonecros said...

@Lord Seth

Dr. Fin's attempt to drain Chaos Knux was interrupted, it didn't fail by itself, and he did drain off enough energy from Chaos Knux to transform into what he is, now, so obviously the drain was successful, at least in part, and probably would've successfully neutralized Chaos Knux had it not been interrupted. Oh, and let's not forget that Eggman himself was able to drain enough of Knuxerjak's power that he needed a recharge from the Master Emerald, so obviously draining his power was still a viable and somewhat-successful way of taking him down.

Also, while Sonic and Shadow haven't been seen draining Chaos energy, the known extent of their Chaos-warping abilities seem to suggest that it is an ability they likely have. Like I said, Shadow has the ability to manipulate Chaos energy at its source, so even though he may not be as powerful as Knuxerjak, all Knuxerjak was at the time was a living Chaos Emerald, whose power could be drained, redirected, or disrupted. There's several things Shadow could've done, rather than simply "Beat the superpowered Evil Knuckles into submission", like sever his connection to the Master Emerald, or tap into his Chaos energy and drain enough of it to become Super, himself. Yeah, it may have been a bit of a cop-out, if they did that, but they wouldn't have even had to use it as a deus ex machina; they could've had Knuxerjak eventually take down Shadow, but left weakened enough from Shadow's meddling to have the spell on him slip somewhat or something to give more dramatic tension. Same thing with Super Sonic; he chose to become Super during Knuxerjak's repowering from the Master Emerald; a perfect opportunity for him to influence the process and weaken him even further. Neither time they did so, and instead made Knux out to be a nigh-unstoppable god that not even these two reality-warping heroes could even dent.

I'm sorry, but it just boggles the mind to me just how adamant the writers were to get in their precious "Knuckles is evil" storyline; there were so many things that they could've done to it to either have the story without screwing the Echidna over (like putting Dr. Fin in his place, which - as I said before - would've made little to no impact on the story itself) or tempering it with logical storytelling, but the thought of Knux as an unstoppable evil god was just too juicy for them, I guess.

Jesse Haller said...

I haven't read One More Day either... doesn't mean it's not a pile of retcon crap.

Rebirth has NOTHING to do with Hal's original turn into Parallax.

The idea of Hal coming back from the dead and the retcon of an evil yellow bug that possesses people sounds horrible, even with the best of writers behind it

Hal Jordan was corrupted by power as well. Because he was the greatest Green Lantern, he thought he was entitled to all of the power for his own ends. Sinestro thought his power made him better then others. Apples and apples.

Superman is Superman, there can only be one. Same with Batman. The Green Lantern power is passed down. The character has a replacement quality to it. Jordan's fall was a long time coming. The power needed to be handed down. Remember Hal inherited his power as well.

Hal is my favorite Lantern... but it was time to move on. I felt he had a wonderful send off... that shouldn't be undone.

Character changes can be done bad. Not ALL character changes are bad.

When it comes down to it, you what your characters to stay the same. I find it boring and unrealistic.

mightysamurai said...

Rebirth has NOTHING to do with Hal's original turn into Parallax.

Actually it has EVERYTHING to do with his original turn into Parallax, which you would know IF YOU HAD EVER TAKEN THE TIME TO READ IT.

The idea of Hal coming back from the dead and the retcon of an evil yellow bug that possesses people sounds horrible, even with the best of writers behind it

And how do you know this IF YOU'VE NEVER READ IT?

You know how I know One More Day stinks? BECAUSE I'VE READ IT. I don't let others form my opinions for me, nor do I prejudge stories without reading them. Apparently you do, though.

Hal Jordan was corrupted by power as well.

No, he was not. If he had been corrupted by power he would have gone on a killing spree LONG before Coast City. But he didn't. Which means he WASN'T corrupted by power, he just went insane with grief. WHICH MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE FOR HAL JORDAN. The man with more willpower than any other person on Earth suddenly loses his will and goes nuts? What kind of sense does that make?

Because he was the greatest Green Lantern, he thought he was entitled to all of the power for his own ends.

Except the reason he was the greatest Green Lantern was because he DIDN'T think he was entitled to power. He was the greatest Green Lantern because he was a hero, not because he was super-powerful.

My God man, have you ever read a Green Lantern comic before?

Superman is Superman, there can only be one. Same with Batman. The Green Lantern power is passed down.

So you're saying there is absolutely no value in any of the people wielding the Green Lantern rings, they're just cardboard cutouts that can be thrown out and interchanged at any time for any reason?

Jesse Haller said...

I liked Hal's turn into Parallax, I've said why already.

I've read a lot of Green Lantern... I've read a lot of comics in general. But I don't have the time or money to read EVERY comic that comes out. Sounds good, I'll read it... sounds bad, I don't.

I don't need to put my finger in a light socket to know it's a bad idea.

This has been fun and all... but I'm not going to spend any more time arguing with a fanboy.

mightysamurai said...

This has been fun and all... but I'm not going to spend any more time arguing with a fanboy.

Because ad hominem attacks make for such a convincing argument.

Anonymous said...

A Batman Beyond reference, awesome.

Kanerou said...

Interesting.

For the person who suggested Hotaru for this list, that wouldn't work. Remember, Hotaru was an innocent who was possessed by Mistress Nine. Then she awakened as Sailor Saturn. She wasn't a hero before turning evil (unless you count her stint before rebirth). Well...aside from the whole Galaxia thing. But that happened to everyone except Sailor Moon.

Elemental said...

I saw the "Kill you to death!" dialogue before, but I assumed it was a photoshopping because seriously, who'd write that and think it sounded scary?

Ron said...

only good news about one more day? time for more fanservice when it comes to black cat. i swear, if they don't i will personally slay the majority of marvel's artists.

Anonymous said...

1. For the record, Nightwing became Renegade to uncover the plans of the Secret Society and that he blamed himself for killing Blockbuster

2. You complain about Superboy-Prime turnig evil, but what about his partner; Alexander Luthor II of Earth-Three? People complained about that turn to evil as much as Mr. "I'll Kill You To Death". (Infinite Crisis FTW)

3. How about Jean-Paul Valley?

4. I think I can explain Maxwell Lord's turn to evil. Either Superboy-Prime's punching on the wall of reallity or the process that made him human again. But still it makes no damn sense.

5. How about Niles Caulder from the Doom Patrol? Not only did he create the Brain and the original three members as part of some freak-support scheme, but he also planned to turned the whole world into a Grant Morrison acid trip. I don't know how, but that doesn't begin to make a lick of sense.

6. Dc did eventually reveal that Mordru was behind this whole Hawk/Monarch/Extant mess.

7. The only good thig that came from the Goblyn Queen nonsense was the issue that had Harry Osborn battle the Hobgoblin.

8. Speaking of Hobgoblin, how about when Marvel revealed that Ned Leeds was the Hobgoblin? That's soething that needs to be dusted off and ranted about.

9. Do you really hate the Parallax retcon? I mean because of it, we have the epics that Geoff Johns is writing for the Green Lantern books.

Anyway, Linkara FTW
Canohji

arkan2 said...

#15: Heroes Doing Evil Things, example: “One More Day”
Not arguing with the stupidity … except on Mephisto's part. Think about it: if Mephisto really is the Lord of All Evil, then swapping Peter's marriage for Aunt May's life was a stroke of pure genius on his part. Why? Because he did just about the most evil thing he possibly could: he ruined Spider-Man. Not in-canon. He ruined Spider-Man in the REAL world. Now that's what I call diabolical.

Now I wonder if Jacen Solo ever had a run-in with Mephisto between “New Jedi Order” and the “Dark Nest” trilogy. Maybe Aunt Mara took a blaster bolt meant for Jacen, or something. (Ohh, the irony …) That would explain A LOT. (Seriously, if this list were for literature instead of comics, “Dark Nest”/“Legacy of the Force” would totally take #1. hands down.

#2: Hal Jordan becomes Parallax

Y'know, apart from the gratuitous Heel Turn, that scenario kinda reminds me of the backstory for the new Doctor Who, what with the Time War and everything …

Anonymous said...

I'm a bit amazed you didn't add Hunter Zolomon aka Zoom. The guy became a villain after experiencing tragedy after tragedy, and wanted Wally to help him and so on.. I mean hell this guy took on Flash, Damage, the league and the Rogues themselves. then again your list comprises of older comic characters so I don't think Hunter been around at that time. still good list.

Anonymous said...

you also have to admit that dispite Superboy Prime being whining in I.C. and Countdown he sure made it up in Sinestro Corp wars when beating the holy crap out of everyone and makeing one cool fight with Ion.

Ming said...

Oh yes, the infamous Armageddon 2001 fiasco involving Hank Hall/Monarch. I don't know what they were thinking when they decided to change the ending to that event. I mean, yes, Hawk and Dove was likely to be canceled, but ditching all the clues leading up to Captain Atom as Monarch? This is just sick. Thank God for Blackest Night and Brightest Day, which brought Hawk/Hank Hall back. Though I wonder if there will be a subplot on Hank's guilt over his insane actions.

Hal Jordan/Parallax was the second biggest mistake. Thank God for Geoff Johns and Green Lantern Rebirth.

As for Mary Marvel . . . Hmmm . . . Given the current status of the Marvel Family and the upcoming Shazam story, I'm not sure if Mary Marvel can be fixed.

It's disgusting what happens when editors force a story where the hero turns evil and/or goes crazy. The few that were actually awesome (aside from Teen Titans: Terror of Trigon) were the Kid Marvelman/Kid Miracleman saga by Alan Moore, the Winter Soldier storyline from Captain America, the Dark Phoenix Saga from X-Men, and Mark Waid's Irredeemable. (Teen Titans Judas Contract doesn't count.)

Dustin said...

" I read it, and I wish I hadn't"

I like it. :)

Anonymous said...

Great episode, Linkara. Now, I wonder, will you make "Top 15 Worst Villains Becoming Heroes"?

RichardAK said...

I know I'm a little late to commenting on this video; I only just ran across a link to it. Sorry about that.

I did want to say a few things though. First, a minor point: I agree about both Hawk becoming Monarch in Armageddon 2001 and Captain Atom becoming Monarch later, but I just want to point out that it would have been just as stupid to make Cap into Monarch back in Armageddon 2001 also. The whole thing was a dumb idea.

I also wanted to say that I agree with Jesse Haller that making Hal Jordan evil made perfect sense. The character's entire arc in that volume of Green Lantern was all about how Hal couldn't cope with getting older and was desperate to recapture his past.

It starts with him as a drifter, going back to all the same places he had visited with Oliver Queen and Appa Ali Apsa. Then, when the Corps came back after the first story arc, Hal was originally assigned to recruiting new Lanterns, but then insisted that he be given Sector 2814 back, and got it back by means of dubious ethics. He then immediately set about recreating his old life, trying to reconnect with Carol Ferris, becoming a pilot in Coast City again, etc. The whole series smacked of a man getting older and going through a mid-life crisis, trying to recreate his youth.

And then what happens? Coast City gets destroyed, and Hal's past, to which he'd been so desperately clinging, gets obliterated. And what does Hal do? He attempts to destroy the entire universe and recreate it from the beginning according to his own design. It's the logical conclusion to his character arc, to which the entire series had been building, and which was heavily foreshadowed in the "Third Law" story arc, especially in issue 34.

So I thought Hal's turn to evil was an entirely satisfying ending to his story.

Anonymous said...

Hey, just thought I'd clear up one problem with your Invisible Woman entry:

Reed Richards didn't snap her out of it by telling her to drop her female foolishness and bullying her. He didn't think he could actually *convince* her that way. What actually happened was he figured out that the only way to snap Sue out of the mind-control (because the nature of the mind control was emotion-manipulation) was to induce even stronger emotions. So he shouted the most insulting and infuriating thing he could think of and slapped her for good measure, sending Sue into such a fury that she broke free of the mind-control.

So, the story itself was kinda sexist (and very stupid), but Reed wasn't. Or rather, he was acting sexist because he *knew* his wife would kick the shit out of him if he acted like that, which is a totally different thing. Remember that Star Trek ep, "The Paradise Syndrome", where Spock was blissed out on spores and Kirk purposely pissed him off by insulting his mother and calling him racist names to make him snap out of it? It was basically the same thing. Kirk wasn't actually racist, he was just trying to piss Spock off.

This actually makes me want you to do a Top Fifteen Misconceptions In Comics, clearing up stupid, widely-perpetrated lies like Hank Pym abusing his wife when he actually only hit her once while drugged and insane, or Sue Storm sleeping around with Namor when actually she's only ever had a crush on him, or post-crisis Lois Lane being in love with Superman and not Clark when it's the other way around, or Guy Gardner still being a dickwad when he actually grew out of that years ago, or Aquaman being a lame dork when he's always been cool in the comics and was only lame in Superfriends.

SynjoDeonecros said...

With the Maxwell Lord thing, I can kinda see it as being a legitimate argument and not hypocritical. My theory, he realized just how dangerous and corrupting having powers can be through his own experience with his manipulation abilities, and combined with a research into the history of heroes turning villains in the DC universe decided on his own accord that superpowered beings needed to be curbed and/or destroyed to keep them from screwing over humanity.

De-Ji said...

Was that Eartha Kitt's I Want to Be Evil song? It sounded different than the one I found.

Mateja Kovač said...

That equation is so true.

Anonymous said...

That speech at the beginning becomes horrifying in retrospect after the Holokara Arc. Though I could use that in the future in one of my works.

Anonymous said...

Uh, I'm all for every last one of these insults, except for the one about Invisible Girl (it was still 3 1/2 issues before she became Woman) becoming Malice. The skimpiness argument I can understand, but the change only lasted 1 1/2 issues, and was blatantly a brainwashing by a D-list villain's henchman. The misogynistic speech was entirely a ploy for Richards to snap her out of it, thankfully, and the only other flaw with the comic was the random cameo by Daredevil.