Why don't you try looking at some new books? I mean, pick up a trade or something? Marvel is pretty spectacular with collected editions of their classic material, and old stuff is still worth recommending, so far the only Marvel books you've been looking at are Deadpool and Avengers Academy. It just seems like you're missing a huge opportunity to make this show more informative than it has been as of late.
Also, sorry for the double post, but why haven't you been reading Journey into Mystery by Kieron Gillen? I can't help but think you would love it! You should really try to get caught up on that series.
Even when it was tieing into Fear Itself it could be appreciated on it's own merits and it's loads of fun, high concept fantasy with a sense of humor that really puts a smile on my face.
As somone who barely knows anything about Thor past Simonson's run in the 80s, its a real treat!
Green Lantern Corps #3: I also enjoyed this one. Lots of fun action. I had no idea about Hannu. Thanks for the tidbit, makes the plot point clear for us new readers.
Justice League #3: Can't agree more on all points. I also liked the tweaks to Aquaman's design since it is 5 years ago.
Batman #3: Snyder is doing amazing with this book. The use of architecture and history to figure out his enemy is great. I love Batman in all out action, but detective Batman is my absolute favourite. This book started on an action high and moved into detective work. It was a perfect balance for me. Oh and the magnet trick was great.
Deadpool #46: I just got back into Deadpool with #45. I did some reading and decided to not worry about going back. So this arc is my first read in about 9 years. I am loving these 2 issues, it was hilarious. The banter between them is just great. I hope this arc keeps up the quality because I love it so far.
Wonder Woman #3: I didn't read this, so I can't give an opinion. I didn't like the first issue, so I didn't keep up. I agree with you about change. Things are allowed to change (look at the history of just about every character), just make the change worth it. For some they will work, for others they won't. This is also true of original mythos, Some people will like it, some won't.
Writers need to stay away form daddy issues for a while. It is simply a cliche now.
Wow, that's surpricing. An origanl backstory is turns out to be a lie and the truth is the one that was cliche even back in ancient Greek times. I don't blaim you for dropping it.
I have to say, that I agree with you somewhat on Wonder Woman and this is the first run of Wonder Woman I've read. There was nothing wrong with the original origin, so why not just have it so Zeus gave her life instead of being her literal father?
That said, I'll stick around for a few more issues to see if they can bring back the momentum I think it had in the first two issues.
I almost totally agree with you on wonder woman. Though I am not totally loving the art as you as I really hate some of the gods new look and diana collar scheme now. What the hell was dc thinking with this WW? Lets make her annoying and just really rip off a bunch of other things including wonder girl.
Since you're droping Wonder Woman, maybe I could suggest a couple other titles for you? If you were a fan of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Ghostbusters, they may be worth a look. I pick them up and I enjoy them. Or, if you're looking more mainstream, Marvel's new Avengers Academy arc is shaping up to be fun. I'm also enjoying The Incredible Hulk (if you can forgive some of the science) and Thunderbolts. Daredevil's been real good in my opinion too since it re-launched.
Also, I wanna reccomend the recent Spider-Girl trade, Family Values, starring the main universe Spider-Girl, Anya Corazon.
As for the DC stuff... well, our tastes are fairly the same in that regard, so I can't really make a new suggestion other than I was about to drop Detective Comics until #3 got to be pretty decent and much less gory.
So far the new DC universe doesn't really impress me. I am trying to keep an open mind about it, but I keep waiting for something to "wow" me, and just hasn't happened as of yet.
I was really disappointed by the new 52 this week. Catwoman was terrrrrrrrible, so bad I dropped it, JL was the biggest pile of nothing I've read in a long time (seriously, stop decompressing! It has its place, but this was not that great), Wonder Woman was dumb, but the stuff about the Greek myths are enough to keep me interested as long as I squint and pretend that it's a new version of Fury rather than Diana. Even My Greatest Adventure wasn't all that good. Blue Beetle was the best of this week, but it wasn't anything special, either.
You'd think Geoff Johns would have picked up on the whole "Taking the origin story of the side-kick" since he was writing Teen Titans when Cassie discovered that.
I couldn't agree with you less on Wonder Woman Linkara. Wonder Woman's new origin expandes Wonder Woman's world so that she's more integrated with mythology. It allows her to fill in a void that Batman and Superman don't fill in the big three. Batman is the detective, pulp action hero. Superman is an alien from another world that adopts our culture as his own, a science fiction hero. Now Wonder Woman is the daughter of a god, and has a strong role for her superhero adventures, like Superman and Batman. All their origins are 'cliche' in way now. That's a good thing, because their archetype backgrounds allows us to lower suspension of disbelief alot easier and let's us slide into exceptions of the character better.
Your forgetting for every good John or Gail story there have been 15 crappy Wonder Woman runs. With people having no idea how to build a supporting cast for her, what she should do outside the Justice League, or even what her characterization is. So many writers have written her as token novelty feminist icon or Superman with tits or even as a golem who isn't even human it just drives me crazy.
This run isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. While It has created an excellent supporting cast for Wonder Woman, hell the best she's ever had, she doesn't seem to be the main character in her own book.
I'd wish you'd stick it out more and try to trust Brian Azzarello with what he's trying to do here even if it goes against previous your previous exceptions of the character. Because it's a fun ride for me and most other comic readers.
Every time I see you talking about a good Batman book and the like, I love hearing you praise it, but also feel kinda bad since I have stopped reading DC books. I was following Batman, Teen Titans, and a few others, but as soon as I heard about the relaunch, well I had been on the fence about DC's quality for a while now, and the news of the relaunch clenched it for me and I stopped reading them all together(which really killed me on the inside since Batman was the first superhero I ever knew and loved). I'd also already been reading Marvel for years, so now I am strictly a Marvel Zombie(in the old sense of the term).
I don't know where I'm going with this, but sometimes I wonder if I'd like to hear someone talk me into picking up a book or two from the DC rack, but at the same time I'm still holding out for the continuity I lost because of this unnecessary reboot.
Final note: I agreed with EVERYTHING you said about Wonder Woman. You always manage to get the nail right on the head, Lewis.
Undead Unicorn said: "Wonder Woman's new origin expandes Wonder Woman's world so that she's more integrated with mythology."
Her origin was already integrated with mythology. She was sculpted from clay, given life by Greek goddesses, and a member of the Amazon tribe, and given superpower gifts from those same goddesses (and Hermes). This new origin LIMITS her origin, now she's not a product of numerous Greek gods and goddesses, nor is she the prized heir to the Amazon legacy. Now, she's the bastard offspring of ONE god, been lied to all her life, and many of the Amazons distrusted her. For stupid reasons.
"It allows her to fill in a void that Batman and Superman don't fill in the big three."
She ALREADY filled that void. She was already more of a champion and advocate than Batman or Superman could be.
"Batman is the detective, pulp action hero. Superman is an alien from another world that adopts our culture as his own, a science fiction hero. Now Wonder Woman is the daughter of a god, and has a strong role for her superhero adventures, like Superman and Batman."
She ALREADY had a strong role for her superhero adventures. Just because that role was missed or marginalized doesn't mean it wasn't THERE. Just as Batman became more of an eccentric police officer, or just happy funtimes adventurer in the Silver Age, but has returned to his roots as a mysterious protector of the night. Just as Superman had become more of a stern and sometimes cruel father figure in the Silver Age, and has (occasionally) returned to his most popular characterization as the shining beacon and example we should strive to be. So too will this be yet another blip on the miscasting of WW before she (one day, I'm sure of it!) returns to her best characterization as one who champions the weak and defense their freedom against otherworldly threats (not just mythological ones).
"All their origins are 'cliche' in way now. That's a good thing, because their archetype backgrounds allows us to lower suspension of disbelief alot easier and let's us slide into exceptions of the character better."
It's not just that Diana's new origin is cliche or archetypical (which her older original ALREADY WAS), it's that a) this has been done before, b) adds nothing new or good to her, and c) shows that the people in charge still don't get what it is that makes her awesome.
Green Lantern Corps - you got this exactly right. All action, but very good action. It had me quite entertained.
Justice League - you're also pretty much right on this one. Very solid, action pack issue. And the ice cream scene was just great. Very enjoyable for me.
Batman - This book is amazing. Seriously. The writing is just superb. So yeah, again we're in the same boat.
Nightwing - You were perhaps a little more positive for this one than I was. This book just strikes me as particularly average. In a lot of ways it was the least exciting thing I read this week. It's not bad, though. There were some kind of fun moments, I just didn't feel like it really offered much to get excited about.
Blue Beetle - It's my first time with this character, so it's probably only natural that I'd be more receptive to this book. The first two issues were kind of slow to me, but this one did a lot to convince me to keep with it. Very solid issue in my opinion.
Wonder Woman - And yeah, this is where the biggest disagreement comes for the week. I didn't really care too much for this issue either, but it was for completely different reasons. I really love the look of this book, and most of the dialog is just great in my opinion. It's not on my very upper tier, but I think it's a very good book. The thing is, I personally don't care one way or the other about one origin versus the other as long as I see a compelling story unfold with strongly defined characters. That's why this issue was kind of a problem for me. It was just really slow. Too much time was spent on the origin stuff I didn't particularly care about and not enough time was spent on moving the plot ahead. After the great first two issues it was something of a let down.
Best book of the week for my money was Birds of Prey #3. Also excellent but not covered was Supergirl.
Sounds like the Amazons are being turned into Female Spartans, WARRIOR women first and foremost. Hence WW's more aggresive persona.
Eh, Why Zeus? Zeus is a dick and it's never gonna amount to anything! If you honestly wanted to debunk the clay thing for whatever reason... pick someone interesting not Olympus' number one man whore!
I notice you didn't review Supergirl #3. It wasn't a great issue, but it was actually starting to go somewhere, and the coloring got a lot better. I forget what you said about #2, though, and I can understand dropping it there, but there is at-least some forward motion in the story, but then, Superman still looks so generic in the book.
Also, Uncanny X-Men vol 2 (I guess) #1 was pretty good. Looks like the arc is that Cyclops wants the X-Men to be more superheroish and be more like the Avengers so people will see the positive good mutants can do and what-not. I'm more of a DC guy too, but I recommend it.
"...This new origin LIMITS her origin, now she's not a product of numerous Greek gods and goddesses, nor is she the prized heir to the Amazon legacy...."
Look at you wrote. Look at how long it took you to summarize Diana origin. It's a convoluted mess compared to Batman's or Superman's. Your right, it limits her origin. But limitations aren't bad things. They make you focus your attention, force you to be more meticulous with details, and can even force to be more creative within it's constrains.
But in any case her origin is much like other members of the trinity now in its simple but resonating power. Adopted son from another world, fighting for justice. Vigilante striking out at injustice in the name of vengeance. Daughter of a god and a queen fighting to maintain a natural balance between the two. Old stories, but classics.
"She ALREADY filled that void. She was already more of a champion and advocate than Batman or Superman could be."
No, she didn't. Once again, she had a couple good writers spread out through the years but most people didn't know what to do with her. Even during good runs, alot of stories could have been filed off and been replaced with Superman or another cape hero.
Her personality might have been different from Superman, not her 'setting'. At the time of her creation her being a woman who was also a superhero was a big enough divergence from the norm it made her stand out. Now other strong female character who aren't just sidekicks or spinoffs from male counterparts have emerged and it doesn't cut it any more. What she does have for her that everyone knows is the fact she's connected to Greek mythology, that she's an Amazon. Brain decided to build her up her setting and role more in the new DC, by increasing this connection. Superman is the space hero now, with sci fi and alien trappings. Batman is the street level guy fighting mafia dons and psycho clowns, and doing good old fashioned detective work here and there. Wonder Woman is a fantasy hero now, fighting gods and ancient monsters and what not. Writers now have a better frame to work with her now because of this simpler, iconic origin. Like any of them someone is going to bring out something out there that doesn't fit this setting and it's going to be fun because of it, but that doesn't stop the importance of the solidifying her setting.
"Just as Superman had become more of a stern and sometimes cruel father figure in the Silver Age, and has (occasionally) returned to his most popular characterization as the shining beacon and example we should strive to be."
First Batman Brave and the Bold is cool Silver Age fun.
Second that's very vague sounding and is so for a reason. It's only in the Silver Age Superman became the golden son of America and it's greatest protector. Alot of those stories were also good, and can stand up even now. It's why the industry survived in fact. He was a figure appropriate for his time.
But Golden Age Superman or Grant's Action Comics Superman are taking off for this reason. We're in very politically and culturally unstable times, were the only thing we know is the big guy is after the little guy. No one trusts the status quo and wants a public champion. And a public champion won't be the establishments side because no one in the real world trusts them anymore.
Bronze Age Superman stories (when they were good) played him off like Captain America, as a man from a simpler purer era that refused to bend his personal morals in face of a darker, modern world. That was because it was during a period where we as a culture just realized how assish the type of nationalism Superman was and how naive in morally as well, while appreciating his moral certainty, purity, and clarity, and wanted to find a way to apply that moral center to the (that the time) complex modern world.
Wonder Woman's no different, she's going through an important (though very different reasons) change for this new rebooted universe.
Though that didn't change the fact he still fight primarily aliens or mad scientists, lol.
For the triple post but I really thought about this Linkara.
"(which her older original ALREADY WAS), it's that a) this has been done before, b) adds nothing new or good to her, and c) shows that the people in charge still don't get what it is that makes her awesome."
A Pandora like origin while magical isn't very heroic in an archetypical sense though. Giving anyone an origin story that is similar to the one caused the stereotype of "stupid woman gets curious and said curiosity fucks over men big time, hence why they women should mind their place" doesn't slide me into getting a mode hoping for epic heroism.
You have no idea how much i needed to hear someone else get mad about Wonder Woman #3. I can't stand that issue or how this "new" Diana is portrayed in the reboot. I honestly hope enough people drop the book so DC will listen to fans about something other then costume changes.
Did you get a chance to check out Demon Knights? I was having a lot of fun with the previous issues but was very appalled by a few scenes in this book. And not in a good way. I'm interested to hear your take on it.
I have to agree with you on the Wonder Woman thing. For me, the preferred version of Diana and the Wonder Man mythos was the Wonder Woman animated movie they did a few years back. That WW was reasonably modernized and could easily hold her own against any one of the major hitters in the DCU.
I didn't have anything from this week's comic books myself, since I was only interested in Blue Beetle and I dropped that right after I saw they were just redoing the origin story. I might take a look at Batman, but I tend to avoid most of the mainstream titles like Batman, Superman and Justice League in favor of the "Dark" and "Edge" titles
I found Green Lantern Corps to be epic, though I do sometimes worry that Peter Tomasi thinks it's okay to introduce characters to a story and then kill them, but still a great book, I especially like the lizard green lantern who has the ring on his tounge since he had his arms cut off.
Nightwing was certainly good for character development, and the stuff at the funeral at the start was very good I felt
as a fellow reader i am sadly happy because the amateur and the professional critic finally find common ground to agree about something else than "we love comic book but...", your Wonder Woman #3 review is flawless, there is nothing you said i don't have to argue about and the shame is all own DC's idiotic management.
In my early days around this corner of the web i behave like a douche complaining about "Why" did you love JLI so much while "I" did find something clearly swiss cheesy to laugh and rant about, after coming to my senses before ruined a perfectly loosely based imaginary friendship with a hero i discovered is just human like me and not some sort of one dimensional pop star figure anybody can worship and puppet around i apologize to you and i do it again now : "Sorry for what happened at the beginning of JLI."
And to complete trhe path of healing : "Sorry brother for Wonder Woman #03, sorry because we both deserved something better to read and care about, sorry because if JLI was that bad we probably would had nothing to be arguing about for so long despite the fact the nagging was all my fault, for the love of God can't DC do anything right this days concerning their female characters ?
They are the ones who should be asking for forgiveness but i know my own sins, i know the limits for my passive-aggressive borderline behavior, not citing names here but do DC Comics knows theirs ?
Will they practice restrain and moderation what so ever ? Did i really have the need to use the kind of crap they write this days for my language practice ? How much time we still have before Linkara turns DC Comics into a well deserved living hell of fire because if things keep coming this way who can blame him for because the right hand of doom with a hat instead of horns ?
I'm really sad when we have something bad to agree about that stains any argument we may have about anything else like JLI or the Blackhawks for that matter, disagree with you in a civilized manner is a lot more fun even if i can only watch any blushing giggles of disagreement in my own mind.
The team will keep the flag half way down this week and Clearly not-Loudly (at least this time) All We have to say is this... Sorry Mr. Lovhaug, you really deserve something better to review.
I never read DC (or any comics really) before the relaunch, so I can't comment on her characterisation before then. However, I am enjoying WW so far (I studied Classics, so the Greek references are keeping me hooked).
Making her the offspring of Zeus, however, seems really, really dumb! Yes, it ties her to many of the old Greek heroes, but the idea of clay giving birth is already something from Greek myth - Prometheus fashioned man out of clay and the gods breathed life into them (http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Creation_of_Man_by_Prometheus/creation_of_man_by_prometheus.html). It links her to humanity, which from what I've seen of your show and read on the internet, is an important aspect of Diana's character.
Yes, I will keep reading. I'm loving the reimagining of many Gods, and, as I said above, the myth references, but I'm more aprehensive now. The born-of-clay thing was something which really interested me when it was brought up in issue 2, so this new version needs some damn impressive payoff.
One thing I've been wondering since I managed to read the first two issues of Green Lantern since the reboot is how repentant is Sinestro?
Because he seems to have finally realised that he did not have a great recruitment policy with the Sinestro corp I'm wondering if he is starting to think that the whole corp was a failure and that reflects on himself or if he just blames them for not following his orders (as he has done so far).
It seems like a really interesting time for Sinestro in terms of character development.
I do agree with you on Batman. Scott Snyder, unlike Mr. Morrison, can make a compelling story without making it seem like I turned over two pages. Now, there has been some flack for this issue because people think that Bruce would never allow the Court of Owls to get away with operating within Wayne Tower itself. I on the other hand think it was a damn good twist. Bruce was always so focused on crime outside his fortress that I don't think he'd consider that the Court has already infiltrated the tower and, given the info we learn about Alan Wayne, have probably been operating from the tower since before Bruce was born.
Thought Shade #2 was out this week, only to fine DC can be lying liars who lie. T_T I really enjoyed the first issue...well except for Deathstroke's costume...just ugh.
Onto Wonder Woman. I don't pick up WW, not because I don't like the character but 1. I don't really know an extreme amount of her outside of random info I pick up now and again (Your Prologue to Amazon's Attack vid was very helpful) and just the issue of $. But I do agree in regards to the rather blandness of Wondy's new origin (and thank you for associating it with Cassandra Sandsmark's origin. Anything that reminds me of that character makes me cringe as I've written in my own reviews of the new TT). In regards to characterization of WW being so bad, a lot of authors "seem" to not get her, but I think that is not the case. I think it is the idea that Wonder Woman is not only a superhero but also the "ideal woman", a concept that reeks subjectivity. Again, I could just be talking out of my ass though.
"Did you get a chance to check out Demon Knights? I was having a lot of fun with the previous issues but was very appalled by a few scenes in this book. And not in a good way. I'm interested to hear your take on it."
As it happens, my shop had last week's issue, so I bought it and read it along with the ones for this week. I still enjoyed it - more character development. Yes, a bit of gruesomeness, but at the same time this IS a book set in medieval times, and with the number of swords and horrid trolls and demons walking the land, I don't expect it to be the kid-friendliest of books.
On my own personal level, I don't mind Wonder Woman's new change or personality change. Frankly, I wasn't really getting attached to the former Wonder Woman to begin with. I read 3 stories in the past of her, two by Greg Rucka and one by Gail Simone. Gail Simone's story was good, but didn't have that spark I need to want to continue. Greg Rucka's stories were either medicore and very enjoyable (Down to Earth was very well written), but I just couldn't get into it enough to continue (that and can't find anymore of his WW books).
Now, on to other things. In Feburary of next year, DC is releasing Batman Beyond and the next story arc of DC Comics Presents this time staring The Challengers for 3 issues. Will you be trying these two out? Could be a good way to try new things? Also, by any chance get this month's Animal Man and Demon Knights?
On to the comics themselves, I'm buying only two of those (I'm reading in the store Nightwing) and its Batman and Wonder Woman. WW hasn't arrived yet, but I got Batman. It is awesome. Just so much fun, great mystery building, and lots of solid action. Hard to believe this arc still has 8 more issues in it.
A highly violent Wonder Woman, eh? Frankly, sir, I don't see what you're so upset about. I mean, making Wonder Woman highly violent worked out so well for her in Kingdom Come...wait. I meant Infinite Crisis...wait. Crap. :)
Going by your opinions of the relaunched Wonder Woman, I can't help but think that DC turned her into Kratos from God of War.
Anyway, I'm surprised your enjoying the recent Deadpool stuff since IGN's reviewers are downright vicious in criticizing the current run lately. I initially dropped Deadpool because I wasn't enjoying the current arc at the time plus needing my comic money for the other stuff I read like Avenger's Academy and Venom but maybe I'll start picking it up again.
Got to disagree with Undead Unicorn and others. I think Linkara hit it on the head when he said this new origin for Wondy was generic.
Illegitimate Child of Zeus basically just makes her Hercules. We've seen this scenario so often, in so many other different media I don't really see how anyone can be excited about it.
Further, as a (male) feminist I'm more than a little :\ about the fact this is obviously setting up for a wrath of Hera story. While they're hardly the most misogynistic Greek myths, it's kind of pointing in that direction (basically it excuses Zeus's infidelities by making Hera a psychotic shrew.
This is Wonder Woman. Wold it be too much to ask to have an origin for her which is pro-female?
I keep reading about different people's takes on Wonder Woman, and a lot of them,I think, miss the obvious. Not with her origin, but with her mannerism (love) and mission. To me, she's Classical Myth Jesus. A Blasphemous statement? Probably, but think about it. She's defined heavily by love, as is the place she ultimately comes from. She's quasi-divine (having blessings from damn near half a pantheon), and she's sent to the rest of the world to help it. That sounds pretty Jesus-like to me. That she approaches enemies with an open hand solidifies it even more.
And that may be the unspoken problem a lot of writers have: they either can't accept her as Classical Myth Jesus, or the run into the problem of, well, writing Jesus! Adding darkness or negative inter-personal or personal problems to the character mars the concept of Jesus being . . . Christ. Not everyone can pull off a "Last Temptation of Christ". They're more likely to create a gnostic knockoff. That's the way I see it, anyway.
I felling that people who write comic books those days, hate them.
I will not complain about the changes because many changes that at first seemed bad, later became classic.
However with Wonder Woman it's bad writing, don't matter the changes the history is not good.
I will not complaing about change the character if has a character. Serious! The Red Lanterns have more deep motivations, this Diana just don't make sense. Its a bidimensional boring character.
And people that read comics this days forgiven too much and being treath whithout respect from people of the industry.
Recently I watch a interview with STan Lee, where he said that in the 60/70 no one thing about the heroes 20 years in the future because they are to worried to make the books live until the next month.
Today we have a lot of comic readers who accept any crap are given and people from the industry doesn't have any worries to please nobody.
This DC Reboot campaing was a Joke. I don't saw nothing to catch new readers or bring the old ones back.
And I believe I dont need to give examples about it here.
My personal opinion about WW this month is that it was 3 pages worth of expository dialogue that could've easily been in the last issue, but instead drawn out to 22 pages of nothing happening.
In 3 issues Wonder Woman saved 1 girl from an assassin and ... well ... pretty much hung around Paradise Island waiting for her cue. Who wants to read a comic book about Wonder Woman not doing interesting things?
Speaking as a greek history/mythology nut, I actually like her new origin story. It really fits her background material. Now, she's not just another generic superhero or a confusing mess, but can be displayed more prominantly in her origins, for instance:
-"Daddy issues" are just the start of her problems. Heracles (Hercules) is now her half-brother. Awkward.....
-Speaking of family, well, check out Zeus' Wikipedia page. Yeah, he has a lot of kids, doesn't he? Can you say "supporting cast?"
-Her previous origin was similar to Pandora's (Pandora's Box) while her new ones are closer to classic greek heros, like Orion or Perseus.
-New toys! How about blocking a superweapon with Aegis, borrowing Pegasus to evacuate hostages, or heck, just plain beating up supervillians with Zeus' thunderbolts?
-She's not an anomaly anymore. Small point, but the greek gods rarely collaborated around one mortal. Even then, it was usually just one or two gods.
-The Amazons are now more greek. The greek pantheon, and most all of the mythological characters had human flaws and foibles. Hera was wrathful, Athena was prideful, Zeus was LEGENDARY in his affairs. The idea of a paradise? Really, that's a Biblical theme, not Greek.
On a personal note, I hope this helps solidify the character somewhat. As Linkara has noted, public consious isn't kind to WW, and that's not helped by wildly different variations of her character, nor by how generic she comes off as sometimes. The JLU incarnation is her latest, and it did get used quite well in the cartoon. Here's hoping they can mold her into being just as iconic as Superman or Batman.
SERIOUSLY?! Sorry, burtr this is probably THE stupidest reason to drop a book I have EVER heard of!
The circumstances of Wonder Woman's birth were NEVER important It's her reasons and motivation for leaving Paradise Island that truly matter! YOU SAID THAT YOURSELF!
SERIOUSLY!
First good Wonder Woman run since William Marston (and MAYBE Denny O'Neil), and you drop it for such petty reasons
Undead Unicorn wrote: "Look at how long it took you to summarize Diana origin."
That's not summarizing her origin, that's giving DETAILS about her origin. That's like looking at the various skills and disciplines Bruce Wayne learned on his journey to eventually becoming Batman. Or the lessons Clark Kent had to be taught about his powers and how to use them properly before he became Superman. They're important because they shaped who they eventually became, but they're not the ORIGIN.
The origin of Superman in a nutshell: Rocketed away from a dying planet as a child, gains powers beyond that of mortal men on Earth.
The origin of Batman in a nutshell: witnessed his parents' murder as a child, was driven to fight crime as an adult.
The origin of Wonder Woman in a nutshell before issue 3 of her new title: sculpted from claw by a lonely mother, granted various gifts and abilities by the Greek goddesses.
The origin of Wonder Woman in a nutshell NOW: Mom and Zeus fucked. Mom got pregnant.
Which one is really all that much more interesting?
"But in any case her origin is much like other members of the trinity now in its simple but resonating power."
. . . "Mom and Zeus fucked. Mom got pregnant" isn't resonating. It's bland, cliche in the bad way, uninspired, and really hack writing. It's lazy.
"Adopted son from another world, fighting for justice. Vigilante striking out at injustice in the name of vengeance. Daughter of a god and a queen fighting to maintain a natural balance between the two."
That's not their origin, that's their character engine, their storytelling engine. And Wonder Woman's previous storytelling engine was "Champion of the gods, fighting for peace and understanding." That's epic in scale, in concept. It speaks to underlying truths about humanity, and when handled well, might even help provide answers. Now she's "Fights monsters." EVERY super hero fights monsters.
"Old stories, but classics."
In the case of the menfolk, they're old stories, and classics, in the sense that Supes and Bats pretty much originated them; and where they didn't, they refined them, distilled them to their Platonic, classic, ideal. Wondy's new origin is a rehash of the kind of stories that were old in the times of the ancient Greeks. It's old, sure, but it's classic only in the sense of the historical period it originates from.
"Once again, she had a couple good writers spread out through the years"
Perez, Rucka, Simone, Moeller, plus good stories under Messner-Loeb, Byrne, Jiminez, Luke . . . Wonder Woman's quality, just since COIE, has been just as varied as any other superhero. Saying the good stuff was "spread out over the years" is just as true as Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor . . .
"Her personality might have been different from Superman, not her 'setting'."
Yes, her setting. Superman tends to face "super-science" threats, or fat old guys in tweed. Wonder Woman tends to face mythological threats, or magic threats. It's not a question of her gender, and never has been. People who think "Oh, she's the girl superhero" are what keep her down.
I know this is going to be brought up, but I'm curious what you think now that Marvel has no female solos?
Just to be clear, there are still some female centric books, like Generation Hope which centers around Hope Summers, X-Men Legacy which is almost a Rogue solo, Fearless which is Valkyrie's mini, and Avengers Academy which has 5 females to 3 males currently.
Sir, people like you are THE reason why no-one likes Wonder Woman, and why she's been such a mess for the past 30 years or so
As someone already pointed out, Wonder Woman had no place in the DC universe before this She lacked a theme This is the first time in decades that she's actually her own hero For the first time in decades she's actually worthy of being part of the trinity Superman is sci-fi Batman is pulp Wonder Woman is fantasy
And as someone already said, now her origin is much more stream-lined and easier to explain to new readers
People like you and all those yes-men here who wish for the series to fail, are only keeping Wonder Woman in the vacuum she's been in untill now, and then you whine why she doesn't get more recognition THIS is why! YOU are preventing her!
I'm with Linkara in Deadpool Vs Deadpool,that actually does sound bad ass and Original. Usually when it comes to these sort of battles of ones self in any media is you either fight a clone,doppelganger(of any means) or yourself from another universe..here he's literally fighting himself from body parts reformed! Kudos to who ever thought of that idea at Marvel.
Though O-o wow really DC? Their turning Wonder Woman into a Female version of Kratos? Think about it,sure even though Wonder Girl in the original continuity was the Daughter of Zeus(which means all of the Gods and Demigods are her Brothers and Sisters in Olympus) but not only making Diana the Daughter of Zeus but is always looking for a Battle??? No scratch it,that sounds like both Kratos and Vegeta combined...what is DC thinking with Wonder Woman?
Like others, I'd recommend looking at the IDW books "Ghostbusters" and "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles", especially if you're a child of/fan of those franchise. Both started from #1 the same month DC did their re-launch with TMNT doing the "origin story" right now and GB, mostly, following the events of the movies and -seemingly- the game that came out a couple years ago.
Anyway, I'm sticking with WW a bit while longer, it seems after this issue where getting more back into the status quo. I also take it from your pulls this week you've dropped Catwoman? For me, this is a title I still highly enjoy.
And cannot agree more that "Batman" is the best of the Batman books. For me it seems less bogged down by previous continuity and no where near as dark and grim as the other Bat-Books and I also enjoy, like you, Gotham being used as another character.
I completely agree with everything you said about Wonder-Woman. I will keep reading this book though because despite this stupid and unnecessary change because it is still one of the best books out there and after that kind of stunt, I think the worst is behind us.
"Sorry, burtr this is probably THE stupidest reason to drop a book I have EVER heard of!
The circumstances of Wonder Woman's birth were NEVER important It's her reasons and motivation for leaving Paradise Island that truly matter! YOU SAID THAT YOURSELF!
SERIOUSLY!
First good Wonder Woman run since William Marston (and MAYBE Denny O'Neil), and you drop it for such petty reasons
Son, I'm dissapoint"
I said her birth details weren't relevant for the first story she was in, since THAT story was about her motivations for leaving the island.
And did you even listen to me in the video? The origin was just the final thing that convinced me to drop the book. I don't like how she's written, I don't like how the Amazons are written, and frankly the plot itself hasn't exactly grabbed hold of me and wouldn't let go.
And my grammar still needs a lot of improvement, less lack of focus and a few spell checks.
Sorry for my amateurish writing too Lewis, "I" should be improved a lot more at this point.
Meanwhile, Johnny Cash was really cool and i hope you enjoy it.
I would like to know if you are interested to trade your probably only copy of Red Hood and The Outlaws #01 for two treasures i find recently on my own obscure local comic book store :
even if don't have Red Hood #01 anymore i would like to send this two rare comic books as a gift for you, i don't read it yet but i guess with your own ability you can easily made an hilarious Atop the Fourth Wall upcoming event with those two.
DC gives enough headaches to all of us this year so far and i will really appreciate a few more laughs at any moment in the next year schedule.
Once again thank for a fine side show, i can't wait to see what you have in store for the next main attraction despite my own previous criticisms.
Someone asked about Demon Knights and you said you read it, but how come it wasn't reviewed here with the rest?
I keep hearing from you, and just about everyone else about Wonder Woman being a very compassionate person, but from what I've read and seen, she never really came off as very compassionate to those she wasn't friends with. Even then she was mostly compassionate to women and less so towards men. If she's suppose to be a feminist icon, loving, caring, and wants to spread her message of peace shouldn't she be nicer to men, and not just men who are her friends?
These things are never really brought up and it has hurt her title and message a bit to me, but I may have missed issues where this was addressed.If their out there then I'll track them down, but her message rings a little hallow if those issues don't exist.
With Diana's origin I can't say what hasn't been said already, so I won't bother. I will only say I'm glad they didn't say she's the reincarnation of Pandora and all our problems are HER fault. Try thinking of it like that and maybe the new origin won't annoy you so much.
Sorry if i came off a whiny or just complaining. Have a hard time conveying tone over the computer.
Yeah, I'm really teetering on the fence with Wonder Woman myself, which is sad since she's my favorite. I may give it one or two more moths to see if ANYTHING good comes from it outside ThemiscYra. Amazingly the one thing I disagree with you on is what you liked. The artwork is driving me crazy and just doesn't seem professional to me, with bad skin tones and really thick outlines.
BTW, does anyone else suspet that this relaunch may actually be DC's biggest attempt at creating their own version of the Ultimate universe after the All-Star and Earth One books failed to get off the ground? I wouldn't be surprised if, while keeping these books around, we'll see a launch of "DC Classic" or something in another year to bring back the continuity that supposedly stopped this August.
"As someone already pointed out, Wonder Woman had no place in the DC universe before this She lacked a theme This is the first time in decades that she's actually her own hero For the first time in decades she's actually worthy of being part of the trinity Superman is sci-fi Batman is pulp Wonder Woman is fantasy"
Except she's been that since the mid 80s reboot. Try to keep up.
"People like you and all those yes-men here who wish for the series to fail, are only keeping Wonder Woman in the vacuum she's been in untill now, and then you whine why she doesn't get more recognition THIS is why!"
Recognition? You do realise she's in the top 5 of recognisable characters, for non-readers? Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Hulk, Wonder Woman. Show a picture of them to anyone, they'll know them.
"YOU are preventing her!"
No, crappy writers not getting the character prevent it. Especially when they fail their own internal logic, like the last issue. Strife attacked the Island, tricked them into killing each other.. so she could make wise-cracks and join Diana's quest.
"And as someone already said, now her origin is much more stream-lined and easier to explain to new readers."
Except they were banking on readers to already know the minutae of Greek myth to be aware of Strife or Hermes (The writers sure glossed over their importance). And anyone who would know them would know Prometheus and being born from clay as the Gods' champion.
Wonder Woman is now the third series I'll violently disagree with you on (the other two being Action Comics and Red Hood)
In the past, you wondered why Wonder Woaman isn't as popular as Batman and Superman, despite having several great runs in the past
Let's just take a look at the Trinity, shall we?
Who are they?
Superman - an alien from a destroyed world, fighting for justice Batman - a millionaire avenging the death of his parents Wonder Woman - an animated clay-figure, gifted by gods, raised by amazons, set out into the world to spread the message of peace
yeah... the last one is kinda unnecessarily complicated, isn't it?
saying simply that she's "an amazon spreading the message of peace" does a much better job at introducing her, and just shows how pointless all the additional baggage is
Now let's say "an amazon/demi-goddess protecting the mortals from the whims of the gods" Doesn't that have a great ring to it? It certainly sounds like something the masses would like to read (same as with Superman and Batman)
Another question who are their enemies?
Superman fights aliens and mad scientists (and their creations)
Batman fights mobsters and psychopaths
Wonder Woman fights mad scientists, gods, nazis, furies, mutants, and aliens Yeah, I don't understand how half of these fit in with the whole Amazon background
Staying true to the villains, who's their arch-nemesis?
Superman: Lex Luthor Batman: the Joker Wonder Woman: Baroness? Duke of Deception? Cheetah? Ares? Doctor Psycho? Circe?
Who is their supporting cast?
With Superman, everyone probably knows of Supergirl, Lois Lane, and the rest of the Daily Planet (Jimmy and Perry that is) staff Some will also know Superboy, Steel, and Krypto
In Batman's case, everyone can name Alfred, Catwoman, Batgirl, and Robin. Some will even be able to name more than one robin, as well as Batwoman and Ace
But what about Wonder Woman Some people may be able to name Wonder Girl, and maybe even realize there is more than one, but most will just say "the Amazons" , out of whom they'll only be able to name Queen Hippolyta, if you are lucky Most probably won't even know who Steve Trevor and Etta Candy are
All of these problems can be traced to the same source - a lack of unity Both Superman and Batman have a united theme For Superman it's science and space For Batman it's crime and pulp But while Wonder Woman's origin has it's roots in mythology, her stories just tend to be all over the place As a result, writers usually have no idea what to do with her. Everyone knows how Batman and Superman work, no two people will be able to agree on how Wonder Woman works Due to this Wonder Woman's been unable to maintain a stable supporting cast, or a truly iconic rogues gallery These things prevent her from ever becoming relevant or popular.
Azzarello's run is a much-needed step in the right direction He roots Wonder Woman firmly into Greek Mythology, and builds upon it. Through this he provides clear guide-lines for future writers (if they'll be smart enough to follow his lead) Now, Wonder Woman has the whole Olympian pantheon and bestiary to draw her rogues and supporting cast from Hermes already grew on me, and I seriously hope he'll stick around as a sidekick. Eris is so far an awesome villainess. And we may as well expand beyond the mount Olymp, taking cues from Marvel's Thor, and include other pantheons as well She did stand besides Bast, Beowulf, or Rama in the past. They may as well return and bring their pantheons along.
Mythology and fantasy is definitely the route Wonder Woman should take if DC ever wants her character to be relevant again. Making her the daughter of Zeus helps to cement this direction, and provide a clear premise (see the earlier portion of my reply) The implication of Diana having problems with the Amazons actually helps to explain why she was so eager to leave the island (as opposed to just going with a man she grew to like, which was still better than Perez's explanation) As for the amazons trying to overthrow Hippolyta, I think it's the doing of Eris. That's kinda her thing, you know, the goddess of conflict, strife, discord, etc.
ps. To all those who wish this series to fail Go to hell! How dare you call yourself fans?! You should be ashamed of yourselves!
well as I expressed in my reboot video (free spam yay! http://blip.tv/tischannel/comics3-5746619) I'm really liking Azzerello's Wonder Woman (apart from the return to the old costume, damn girl, put on some pants, it's cold outside)WW was never this "compassionate", or at least there were as many writer that wrote her as a warrior as there was writer that didn't, so it's really not that great of a change, the new origin is interesting (and at least it change it with a criteria, not by saying "reboot! now it's like this" but explaining it,on the other side I was disappointed too when she went away from the amazons, but I really doubt that they won't return in this story, and really as long as this third number goes there aren't a lot of "daddy issues"
ah and by the way, you should really give it a try to the deadman miniserie on DCUP from the second issue it gets REALLY good with fun action and interesting story
What if, say, there's this HUGE crossover story in this reboot, and you're really enjoying it, one issue of one series end off on a killer cliffhanger, and the comic that resolves the cliffhanger was Wonder Woman? Would you read it then?
One thing I would like to add,is I'm kinda curious on one thing. If you watched Batman The Brave and the Bold series,Lewis what was your thought of the final episode "Mitefall"?I honestly thought it was one of the best damn final episodes I've seen in quite awhile. Sure it took a nod at Freakazoids ending but it was very clever of it being a self aware/breaking the fourth wall episode
And yes I'm not spoiling anything just in case if others or you yourself havn't seen the episode.
No she didn't. She was always the more mythological and fantasy focused of the trinity, and I SAID what her theme was. Superman is the protector, Batman the avenger, Wonder Woman the champion.
"This is the first time in decades that she's actually her own hero"
She's been her own hero since the 80s at least.
"For the first time in decades she's actually worthy of being part of the trinity"
No, she's always been worthy of being part of the trinity.
"Sir, people like you are THE reason why no-one likes Wonder Woman, and why she's been such a mess for the past 30 years or so"
*I* like Wonder Woman. Plenty of people like Wonder Woman. People like me? People like me actually KNOW about the character. If more people actually knew the fundamentals of the character, MORE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE HER.
"And as someone already said, now her origin is much more stream-lined and easier to explain to new readers"
What was so hard to explain about "sculpted from clay, given gifts from the Greek gods?" Now she's just another generic demi-god, which she's never been before, nor should ever HAVE been. Any more than she should have been a golem.
"People like you and all those yes-men here who wish for the series to fail,"
I don't wish for the series to fail. I'm still reading, despite the disappointment.
"are only keeping Wonder Woman in the vacuum she's been in untill now,"
Vacuum?
"and then you whine why she doesn't get more recognition"
I don't whine about fictional character. I may lament that she doesn't get more recognition.
"THIS is why!"
No. No, this is not why. The reason she doesn't get more recognition is because, for whatever reason, female heroes always have gotten less recognition than male heroes. That, and poor creative teams running her story into the dirt for far too long, and too few people want to get hooked and engaged by her. When you pick up your first Wondy comic and the story is stupid and hurtful, it's less likely you'll pick up another.
"YOU are preventing her!"
By not wanting ridiculous character changes that make it confusing for new readers who are interested in picking up older stories that don't use those changes? By actually knowing and loving what it is that makes Wonder Woman special and interesting (for the record, again, it's her unique origin and worldview)? By not wanting dumb, pointless changes that, if only because they haven't been around as long as earlier presentations, will eventually get retconned (and few will really mind when they're gone)? By wanting to promote good ideas and concepts in my favorite characters?
A good critique judges a book on its own merits, not where it fits into the critic's preconceived notions. But you're not criticizing Wonder Woman based on its actual script and its internal qualities; you're just judging it based on how it aligns with previous Wonder Woman comics, and talking about continuity details as though they're of paramount importance. That Wonder Woman's origin is retconned, or even that the origin is similar to that of Cassie Sandsmark, are irrelevant. What matters is how Azarello pulls it off, the execution of the comic.
As good as that line was, the only books I can continue to follow is New Guardians and Red Hood. Those are just...the only ones I like still. It is a little sad, really. I had such high hopes for the new 52. High apple pie in the sky hopes. But I am destined to like team books that will be forgotten before long, just like my two favorite comic books of all time, X-Statix and Postboot Legion. The Retroboot Legion is just a mockery. The fact that they are calling one of them "Legion Lost" is an insult to the memory of the best storyline in comic book history.
Sheesh. You know, the whole "Zeus is my father" thing has been done too many times in Greek mythology.
If this is Wonder Woman's "new origin", I hate to see how they're going to portray Donna Troy (assuming she exists in the DC New 52 timelines) and Wonder Girl Cassandra Sandsmark.
I wish they had kept some of the old DCU continuity, especially Wonder Woman's better runs.
Nitz the Bloody wrote: "That Wonder Woman's origin is retconned, or even that the origin is similar to that of Cassie Sandsmark, are irrelevant."
No it's not, just as you can criticize something by comparing it with something else, contrasting this new Wonder Woman series against past stories is completely relevant.
@Adam "Recognition? You do realise she's in the top 5 of recognisable characters, for non-readers? Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Hulk, Wonder Woman. Show a picture of them to anyone, they'll know them."
Maybe in the US Not so much in the rest of the world (where I live, even Lobo and Hellboy outrank her)
Also, whole they may recognize Wonder Woman herself, can they name her supporting cast? Her rogues gallery?
I don't think so. To most people she's just that chick from the Justice League.
"No, crappy writers not getting the character prevent it. Especially when they fail their own internal logic, like the last issue. Strife attacked the Island, tricked them into killing each other.. so she could make wise-cracks and join Diana's quest."
She's a goddess, she can get away with worse. Chances are they realized that the losses would be far greater if they continued fighting her, especially since she was no longer in the mood. That's how gods work (not saying Diana couldn't take her on, but there was nothing to gain besides vengeance that would come at a too high price)]
"Except they were banking on readers to already know the minutae of Greek myth to be aware of Strife or Hermes (The writers sure glossed over their importance). And anyone who would know them would know Prometheus and being born from clay as the Gods' champion."
There are so many movies, TV shows, and videogames drawing from Greek mythology in one way or the other, that it's safe to assume most people at least know the basics - just like they know who Batman and Superman are
"Superman is the protector, Batman the avenger, Wonder Woman the champion."
Out of which nothing really changed But let's be honest, to the average person these words mean nothing
"She's been her own hero since the 80s at least."
No she wasn't. Most people see her as the female counterpart of Superman at best, if not as the token chick on the Justice League, or just as another head in Batman's massive harem
"No, she's always been worthy of being part of the trinity."
Nope, she never came even close to be as recognizable as the other two The only thing that qualified her was that she managed to have a steady run throughout the golden and silver age along with the other two Most people can't even name her villains besides Cheetah, and don't get me started on the supporting cast
"If more people actually knew the fundamentals of the character, MORE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE HER."
At least something we can agree on
"What was so hard to explain about -sculpted from clay, given gifts from the Greek gods?-"
See how long it took to say that? And you didn't even get to her motivations To me, that part of her origin was just an attempt to fix a plot-hole of a child being born on an island with no men. "Daughter of Zeus" works just as well, and takes just three words to say
"Now she's just another generic demi-god, which she's never been before, nor should ever HAVE been. Any more than she should have been a golem."
Just as Batman is just another generic orphan out for vengeance? Or Superman a generic foundling of noble origins? I think now she fits in much better The Trinity - three mythological archetypes!
"No. No, this is not why. The reason she doesn't get more recognition is because, for whatever reason, female heroes always have gotten less recognition than male heroes. That, and poor creative teams running her story into the dirt for far too long, and too few people want to get hooked and engaged by her."
And looking at the sales, this series is fixing it
"By not wanting ridiculous character changes that make it confusing for new readers who are interested in picking up older stories that don't use those changes?"
Only that the changes are handled in such a manner that they won't be confusing - she didn't know yet
"By not wanting dumb, pointless changes that, if only because they haven't been around as long as earlier presentations, will eventually get retconned"
Which is why I hope it WON'T get retconned We finally found a formula that works, so STICK TO IT!
Anonymous wrote: ""She's been her own hero since the 80s at least."
No she wasn't."
Yes, she was.
"Most people see her as the female counterpart of Superman at best, if not as the token chick on the Justice League, or just as another head in Batman's massive harem"
And changing her origin doesn't change that. Informing people about what she IS changes that.
""What was so hard to explain about -sculpted from clay, given gifts from the Greek gods?-"
See how long it took to say that?"
. . . not long at all?
"Just as Batman is just another generic orphan out for vengeance? Or Superman a generic foundling of noble origins?"
. . . which they aren't at all? Bruce Wayne isn't a generic orphan. Generic orphans are poor and mistreated by the system or completely lost in it. Nor is he after vengeance. He doesn't want blood for the murder of his parents, not even from the man who pulled the trigger.
And Superman isn't a generic foundling, of noble origins or otherwise. Generic foundlings can't juggle planets. Generic foundlings have angst about their origins that shape their worldview as adults. Clark Kent doesn't. Maybe a little as a teenager when he learned about his powers, but either he did or not, he grew out of it real damn quick.
Some people try to equate his origins to Moses, but Moses became an advocate for his disenfranchised, enslaved people. Superman doesn't want to lead humanity out of enslavement. He's there to help. Wonder Woman is the one who wants to lead humanity out of enslavement, metaphorically speaking. She wants to change the way humanity thinks about things, reframe us as a more tolerant, accepting, and inclusive society, and not just towards women, which is why the suspicion of the Amazons towards her in this new series is off-putting. Gail Simone had a small group of Amazons dislike how Diana came about and see that as religiously schismatic. Now Azzarello has a large portion of the Amazons feeling that being originally made of clay was enough to ostracize her somewhat in her youth. This isn't the extended family of sisters and aunts that distinguished Diana in her previous (better) origin. Now she's just as much an outsider as Batman or Superman would be considered on the surface. And don't you dare say that's a good thing.
The best WW story I've read was one of the three published in WW 600, where Wonder Woman listened to Power Girl problems with PG's cat.
A hero who has wisdom, and patience, and solves problems in her own, unique style - through enforcing truth and understanding.
I just felt that these several pages worth of story were the epitome of everything what was best about WW. Reflections of Wonder Woman's virtues so to say.
You know damn well what I meant with the analogy with Batman and Superman Their basic background stories may be generic, but they are more than that So is Wonder Woman
"And changing her origin doesn't change that. Informing people about what she IS changes that."
True, and for that the writers must reach a consensus like they did with Batman and Superman Buy dropping the "clay" origins, we finally got the whole "golem" misconception out of the way By tying her even closer to mythology, we now have a clear source for her enemies and allies
Now if we could finally find something that would actually stick
And since this is the first arc of a new re-launch, this is the perfect place to start doing that
raniaeliAbout Hannu whipping out his ring, I believe that, since they're apparently fighting beings MADE of willpower, he must have come to the conclusion that brute force just wouldn't cut it and decided to use the ring.
I think most of you are all missing the wood for the trees.
Wonder Woman is less popular, and her theme is less known cause DC writers don't know what to do with her most of the time, and just as important DC doesn't ever give her much of a push outside of comics.
Look at the other members of the Big 3: Batman has six, soon to be seven movies and a campy TV show, plus Batman the Animated Series.
Superman has six films of his mythos, and Smallville, a recent TV show, Louis and Clark, a slightly older TV show, and Superman the Animated Series.
Wonder Woman has zero movies, one animated movie, and one 30 year old campy TV show.
Daredevil has more recent non-comic book push than Wonder Woman does.
You don't need to ceaselessly rehash her origins, or change her personality or whatever. In order to make Wonder Woman big you need to do two things.
1: Set up a long running series of cool adventurers for her. It doesn't really matter what these adventures are, as long as they're cool and interesting.
2: Give her a push outside comics in terms of movies, or a TV series or an animated series or whatever. Hell, just advertising her and selling her comic on news stands would work.
That's all. Rehashing her as gender swapped Hercules is not what you need to do here, and frankly is only likely to confuse new readers who vaguely know about Wonder Woman and have previously heard the clay thing.
To the Undead Unicorns out there (huh, there's a thought, lol), allow me to touch on some of the rebuttles out there.
Any argument that would suggest that the new origin is an improvement on the grounds of giving Wonder Woman that it "intigrates her into the mythos" is, well, something I won't say here, but it isn't a good thing and I find it to be a silly assessment. Let me ask this. WHY does Wonder Woman need this retcon to her origin? Why WASN'T she intigrated into the mythos before? The Greek Gods MADE HER and GAVE HER THEIR BLESSINGS. Not only did she have her roots and origins firmly intigrated into Greek lore, it was unique and fresh. Did anyone watch Linkara's Amazons Attack prologue? The only thing this does is put her into the family tree, and yet somehow it manages to alienate her from her real family, the Amazons. Oh, wait, we were already on the road to that with this dumbass retcon and Brian Azzarello's crap-tastic handling of the character, turning her into a careless, battle-hungry drone. Hell, I'd feel better with Jodi Piccolt as the writer! JODI PICCOLT! The woman who had Wonder Woman go from former ambassador to "how do you pump gas?"
Another thing regarding this retcon. Some people say this gives her storytelling opportunities, but it is as Linkara said. All it gives her is the "she has parent issues" dynamic which is as cliche as her being Zeus' and Random Woman X's paternal child. How many times have we seen THAT in Greek mythology? It makes for a boring dynamic and removes her personal connection from several of the pantheon. Congratulations, DC. You've sacrificed that unique connection with many for somehing as boring and dull as this.
Now, I will say this. As much as I enjoyed the old origin's idea, I wasn't quite as married to it as Linkara was. Maybe it's because I fancy myself more of a Marvel guy, but I thought it was an awesome story for one of the most iconic characters of all time. Ooooh, but this makes her unique amongst the Trinity! NO IT DOESN'T! If anything, this makes her the dull one of the bunch. Superman? Cast off a dying planet to be raised by farmers. Unique. Batman? Pushed himself above and beyond in the wake of tragedy to become the great hero he is today. Unique. Wonder Woman? A Hercules redux. Dumb, cliche, and boring.
Actually, I'm really disappointed with what's transpired with this New 52 as a whole. If the whole idea was to bring them to their most recognizable periods... then how come we can barely recognize Superman, Wonder Woman, the Birds of Prey, or others?
I hope I'm wrong about Wonder Woman. Since the first trade is 6 issues, I'm willing to see where this goes. I'm not thrilled with this, though. Heck, this, to me, is almost as bad as what Marvel did to the Ultimate X-Men in the changes they made to their history with basically turning them into lab rats... and I used to LOVE Ultimate Marvel... then it spiraled out of control into this burning mess...
I'm with Linkara on this one. Change is good only if they truly have something better in mind. Right now, the change in origin is only an idea. If this were in the hands of a better writer, at least we'd have good storytelling around a bad idea. This, though? And what we've gotten so far from this writer? I'm not filled with confidence.
I AM going to read the next issue though to see what to expect from this. I'm not confident, but I'm hoping to see something. Still, I'm looking for excuses to drop books right now, so I may not even give this title six.
My opinion is that it's because no-one knows what to do with her
When they were planning a Wonder Woman show in the early 90s, they were basically going for a Sailor Moon styled series, with Ico, Sterfire, and Dolphin as her supporting cast, and a villain made for the show. Meanwhile Superman and Batman got shows closely based on their comic history.
As said before, Wonder Woman is kinda all over the place
I wonder if Marston's version of the origin would have been more like this if he hadn't been writing for children, or if the idea of a child been born from sex outside marriage had been a more acceptable subject, or if a woman not being overshadowed by a strong father had been more plausible to large audiences in the forties.
I'm thinking of this Marston quote:
"Giving to others, being controlled by them, submitting to other people cannot possibly be enjoyable without a strong erotic element"
So, why wouldn't he have wanted there to be more of an erotic element, and an element of the "giving up" of "absolute control," in Wonder Woman's origin?
" No it's not, just as you can criticize something by comparing it with something else, contrasting this new Wonder Woman series against past stories is completely relevant. "
Only if the contrast gives a good argument as to why the concepts in the older stories were superior to the ones in the new continuity. Linkara argues that he's against "bad change", but he doesn't really argue why this inherently hurts Wonder Woman (other than claiming that this is a rip-off of Wonder Girl's origin), or makes Wonder Woman #3 a bad comic.
I'm glad to hear the Deadpool comics are getting good again! I liked the Deadpool Skrulls I got that in the trade! I'd like to read that Green Lantern comic! which reminds you might've been asked already but I'd like to hear if you watched the CGI animated piolet episodes of the Green Lantern cartoon last week!? I don't care for the idea of Zues being Wondie's father father in that way it'd been better if it was just his lightening that brought the clay baby to life insted! The story that Wonder Woman's birth is based on isn't the Gollum of Jewish belief it's another Greek story! But it was actually about Aphroditi bringing a clay woman to life for a guy who wanted a wife! Well glad to see you're back to doing these again!
"Only if the contrast gives a good argument as to why the concepts in the older stories were superior to the ones in the new continuity. Linkara argues that he's against "bad change", but he doesn't really argue why this inherently hurts Wonder Woman (other than claiming that this is a rip-off of Wonder Girl's origin), or makes Wonder Woman #3 a bad comic."
The change has actually weakened her, since this version was not blessed by various gods after her unique and heralded as the avatar of truth. She's just some random Amazon, with a deadbeat dad who liked to screw around. What stories can they get out of it? She's going to punch random swans and piles of gold, hoping they're her "daddy who didn't love me"? She'll swap therapist phone numbers with Theseus?
If they wanted to stream-line it to be a one-liner origin, like Bats and Superman, they could have come up with something better. As it is, she's now far below their heroic stories. Superman: Orphaned Alien, who loves us and wants to help make his adopted world safe. Batman: Orphaned by crime, he has devoted his life and fortune to help make his city safe. Wonder Woman: Zeus nailed her mother. And she likes hitting people?
It's actually not all that unusual to hide a pregnancy. There are stories in the news fairly often about a woman hiding a pregnancy, and no one knew until the baby is born. Some women just don't show all that much.
(NOTE: ignore if this posted the first time. I was told it didn't)
Good morning, Linkara.
I didn't know when you are/aren't on Twitter, so I figured I'd just ask this here...
I saw your co-review of Twilight yesterday with Spoony, and was just curious as to your mother's name. It sounded something like "Ah-Vanelle", but Spoony seemed to hear it as something like "Ahp-anelle".
I only ask this because I live in New Jersey, and there's a town named Avenel about a half hour from me...and I was wondering if it was the same name.
Speaking of which, it IS a pretty name. And if it IS Avenel, I like your pronunciation better (I've always heard the A pronounced like in "apple").
@Graveheart I'd call you something, but there's no word in human language crude enough to describe you
I won't bother rebuffing your BS, because it's all been already done before you even posted
I'm just going to the root of this all In an early interview, Azzarello said that he had dinner with Dan Dido before the re-boot, and Dido told him about his intentions to give a brand new direction to Wonder Woman. Azzarello was apparently really appalled by what he heard, and so he suggested his current version instead, which they ended-up agreeing upon. That's also how he ended-up writing Wonder Woman, despite the fact that (as he himself admitted) he was never a fan of the character.
Now think! What must it have been to freak-out a non-fan so much?
Her origin would have changed one way or the other, but this may have been the lesser of the two evils.
here's the interview http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34485
And you know what? It worked! People who previously wouldn't touch WW with a ten-foot pole are now becoming readers Wonder Woman is now the 15th best selling comics in the US, while in the past she struggled to sustain her own title!
Time will tell which side is right, but so far it seems to work much better than the original did
"The change has actually weakened her, since this version was not blessed by various gods after her unique and heralded as the avatar of truth. She's just some random Amazon, with a deadbeat dad who liked to screw around."
And how does being a demi-god make her weak? Theoretically she's now potentially one of the most powerful people on earth
"What stories can they get out of it?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs5rLbu3GDY But seriously, what stories can you NOT get out of an Olympian? Greek mythology itself gives TONS of story-telling opportunities Not to mention the possibilities of visiting Egyptian, Nordic, Aztec, or Sumerian mythologies And then there's the possibilities of re-vamping some of her classic rogues to be more in line with the theme. Cheetah gaining powers from African shamanism? Giganta being a descendant of Frost Giants? Where can I sign?
" As it is, she's now far below their heroic stories. Superman: Orphaned Alien, who loves us and wants to help make his adopted world safe. Batman: Orphaned by crime, he has devoted his life and fortune to help make his city safe. Wonder Woman: Zeus nailed her mother. And she likes hitting people?"
Batman: rich brat being a whiny emo and beating people-up to make himself feel better
See how easy it is to discredit a character?
What about Wonder Woman: demi-god protecting mortals from the whims of the vain gods
Yeah--I think we're far less likely to see Diana angst about her daddy issues then what we've seen before about, "am I a human being?"
I just want the temptation of writers to have Diana go on and on about whether she's alive or a clay puppet of the gods to go away. Of course if you interfere with the magic of her creation she can revert to clay. Perez did it, Byrne did it, Alex Ross and Co. did it. I just hate that story trope to death!
You know, I'd have to agree with you, Linkara, but I can sort of see where those who disagree with you are coming from. Then again, I am admittedly not much of an actual comic book reader. Most of my experience with comic book characters comes from the various adaptations. So yeah.
And Lewis New 52's willingness to keep reading goes down and down narrowing to the most pleasant denominators.
First month : All 52 comic book readed and reviewed because was as the task demanded;
Second month : Only 24 of all 52 survive scrutiny despite the tight schedule;
Third month so far : 10 had receive concerned reviews but at least one is already dead on the water, Wonder Woman #3 consolidates as the kind of crap that makes JLI #1, #2 and #3 looks good so far because, don't get me wrong on this, JLI is bad but still is laughable and laughable is what made that the sort of MST3K funny bunny.
Try to do a screening for Wonder Woman #3 in MST3K style and people are going to burn the slide show machine into ashes and riot out of the room.
Let's face it, keeping in mind all previous disagreement i am proud to accept Linkara as the sort of Dr. Clayton Forrester my own obscure non-mainstream show really need in an backwards way.
An intelligent and wise reader who still is a fan at the end of everything he really enjoy. High schools hardly made this kind of boy turns himself into a man this days and that's sad because that stooge's humor is really on demand right now.
And finally accomplished my mission after downloaded all New 52's series (mostly editions with no ads on it) i can start my experience to replicate Lewis Herculean 52 Labors Monthly in my own 156 Comic Books before Christmas and Counting Up, my prayers goes to "Shameless Frank", be praise upon his Miller :
Now I lay me down to read, I pray the Miller my soul to keep, if I sleep before I finish, I pray for Miller my soul to reap, Guide and guard me through the fight and strike my enemies with the broading light In the Blackest Day In the Brightest Night No Evil can stand all Might Before the Power of Miller's Insight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7JP3q0ub7s
P.S.: Why Green Lantern's movie could not be good as the cartoon ? Any clue ?
*Lewis Lovhaug's 52 Labors Monthly was brought to you by That Guy With Glasses and i thank you both for that.
@Anoymous Re: But why doesn't Wonder Woman get a push?
I think you're basically right. People aren't sure what to do with her. There's a few other factors too, but they tie into that.
I could do a whole post (with unpopular ideas like "completely redesign the costume, including the color scheme") about how I'd do a Wondy series, but let's just get down to the technical thing here.
What is needed to get Wonder Woman into a state where she can be pushed is a someone at DC at at least Editorial level who is interested in doing Wonder Woman stories or a writer who lasts a really long time, like 5-10 years on the book. Or both.
Basically, a long running series where a consistent tone, mythos and bad guys are established and maintained. Wonder Woman needs to be treated as if it's a book basically starting from scratch, central conflicts and enemies established and so on.
Then from there, once you've established that, you push it out as a film.
I think, though, that this is a good change. In real life and in fiction, sometimes going forward involves having new realizations about the past. "Chapter Five: The plot thickens as, our heroine having always believed one story about her past, she discovers that the truth is a different story." It's still true that she and others believed she was made of clay. This story hasn't been retconned away; it's just been revealed to be "only" a story--but an important story, a legend. Ironically, this legend may be more consequential in Azzarello's version--where, even though it wasn't true, it protected Diana but also may have alienated her--then it ever was in Marston's run, where, as far as I have been able to find out, it was only ever referenced in a grand total of three panels. Just think about that--the clay statue origin may already have been discussed more in Azzarello's run than it was in the whole length of Marston's run!
If there was anything wrong with Diana's origin story--and particularly with the part about her "birth," as opposed to growing up on Paradise Island, rescuing a man who is stranded there, leaving to fight evil, etc.--it is, as Azzarello suggested in an interview recently, that it didn't have enough interesting consequences, especially in terms of her motivations. Batman's parents die, so he vows to avenge himself on criminals; Superman's birth planet was destroyed, so he vows to protect his adoptive planet; Wonder Woman was made of clay, so...what? It may be a very nice exception from the patriarchal rule that everyone has to have a father, but what drama does it lead to? What does it motivate Diana to do? The earliest part of her origin doesn't have to make her motivations dark or insecure, and Azzarello has suggested that it will not. But it might be nice if it added something to her motivations.
Dear SLVN a.k.a. Faceless Person of The Week Who Is Completely Ignorant About Some Comic Book Mythos or So...
quoting and restraining my self severely on that : "Wonder Woman was made of clay, so...what?" So she is a mythological creation, she is meant to become the Spirit of Truth, she is pure and come into existence by the blessing of the greek goddesses from their pantheon - the only male god present was Hermes, please check George Perez portrait of the mythos, is flawless - she come later in the Amazon mythos because she was the last to come out from the wheel of the souls and that's because she was the female spirit of Hyppolita's unborn child.
Keep in mind the fact all Amazons have the souls of women who die as victims of violence and reborn as this untamed beacons of hope, freedom and strenght of the heart, they are not just warriors as DC Comics tries to made us digest the mythos because is supposed this what made Xena The Warrior Princess popular.
GET OVER IT DC, XENA WAS COOL BUT WONDER WOMAN IS NOT XENA AND DESPITE ANY MERITS THOSE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE MYTHOS, Perez made all the hard work already and there is only a little bit of space for improvements on that, get the better from Marston and mashed up with this but that all you can get and that all we want.
Batman lost his parents, Superman lost his planet and now Wonder Woman lost the birth right to keep her own mythos because God forbid comparisons with real life religions and anything coming from fiction is now considered as A DOCUMENTARY ???
WTF!!! Are you really that afraid about a fictional technological far far away advanced hidden civilization that send her champion to fight in defense of freedom, justice and whatever means the american way this days ?
That's the real Wonder Woman motivation to fight against evil, she is not a happy trigger swashbuckler eager to fight for the love of fighting and she is not powerful because she is the daughter of Zeus, there is a lot more of background baggage to deal with there but paradoxical as it seen you DC Comics guys and people who supports them are a bunch of pussies because you can't stand for a woman who actually don't need the balls to play catch with Superman or Batman at the same level.
You made her the daughter of Zeus because you think she need his balls to be what she is and in the end turn her into what she is not : an oversimplified MACHO WOMAN WITH A SWORD, in your stupid minds women can't fight against men with their bare hands so she always need a crutch to compensate the lack of props on her crotch.
Azzarello sucks in history and must go back to school to learn about what he is dealing with, DC suck because they can't learn anything from their own previous history, they fail again and thanks to that they are trapped in an infinite loop of repetition.
Check her background history before following the writer blindly, this is not Wonder Woman and i still waiting to see her coming back.
Meanwhile Please Welcome a group of guys that can express my feeling in song better than me through writing :
Information Society - How Long... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py7jrbMLeNc&feature=related
I love ATFW! and I've seen on your shows that people can send you comics to review. I want to send you a few comics that you hopefly find worthy of a review but I can't find the information on where to send the comics
And as resident friendly stalker i can prevent my self from asking again :
Dear Lewis, there isn't any thoughts to share about JLI #03 and Blackhawks #02 ?
I like when you have something good to say about some comics i personally think as bad, politely disagreement can be a lot of fun when people respect each other and their respective limits of conduct and hope i can nag you about that in a non-annoying manner, i understand if the schedule don't allowed a decent reading yet but i expect to listen something about in the near future.
I can always respect the efforts of a dedicated fan in defense of any comic books are choose to be loved despite non-catastrophic structural failures.
I find a band full with "bright colors" to cheer you up, that's the message i have for you, please respond when you were able.
INFORMATION SOCIETY - WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPuXvpkOLmM&feature=related
P.S.: Thanks for inspiring me to re-discover this songs. You and your show are a Godsend.
Now that I think about it, I am surprised you did not say anything about Superman killing Parademons in JL3. It is possible that these DCnU Parademons will be revealed to be nothing but robots, but as you know from having read Villains United (First Appearance of Simone's Secret Six), this was not the case before.
Call me somthing crude because I have a differing opinion than your own? You sir/ma'am are an inspiration for our children. *eyeroll*
Yeah, why don't YOU re-read that interview? You'll see that if Azzarello is to be believed, then DiDido only talked about a new direction, not necessarily just a new origin. This could have been anything from Wonder Woman being a prostitute (definately would have been worse) to Wonder Woman getting cybernetic parts to her turning in her V-card and becoming a mother down the line (which I believe was speculated at some point). You know what else he said in that interview? That her origin would be in tact. He also white-washed it by adding the disclaimer of "in issue one." Yeah, I'm not going to take a lot of what he says at face value.
You wanna know why else Wonder Woman's been a hot seller? Because she's one of the DC Trinity who just got a new relaunch with the other 52. Issue #1 was decent enough. I wasn't as critical of her attitude through the first two as Linkara was, at least when it came to her talking to the pregnant woman, because I still did view Wonder Woman as the compassionate Spirit of Truth, even if she was fighting and fighting and fighting some more.
"If there's two thing she loves it's fightin' and FIGHTIN' 'ROUND THE WOOOOORRRRRRRRLLLLLLLDDDDD!!!"
Yeah, there wasn't much patience with me on that regard. I want my superheroes to be read to do more and be more than just someone who'll beat the snot out of bad guys. I want character and her character's just been up the wall for me.
This is where Azzarello's non-fandom of Wonder Woman REALLY hurts. This hasn't been Wonder Woman in the grand scheme of things. Wonder Woman hasn't been about being angry and waiting for the next fight. She's not Ryu from Street Fighter. She's a kind and compassionate hero who's in it to be a shield for the world, not a sword. Since Azzarello isn't a fan, he probably isn't as familiar with the character as others would be. Wanna know something else that happened with a situation like that? Cassandra Cain turned evil, became a talker, and got taken down by "no-style" martial arts. Yeah, it wasn't a good day then either.
The only characterization that I think has been worse has been Superman in Action Comics.
"I love ATFW! and I've seen on your shows that people can send you comics to review. I want to send you a few comics that you hopefly find worthy of a review but I can't find the information on where to send the comics"
That's because I'd prefer you e-mail me what you'd like to send before I give out the PO Box - I may already have it or not be interested. ^^;
As for everyone else discussing things, please remember to keep it civil. If you disagree, you disagree, but no insults or namecalling will be tolerated.
Just in relation to your complaint of "Wonder Woman's entire life being a lie"
I think it would be a miracle--a wonder, even---for a feminist icon to come from Lies, Betrayal and Adultery.
In a sense, feminism itself is a product of Patriarchy and Misogyny and Oppression, because it arose to oppose those forces. But in another sense, feminism is a product of the will to be recognized as free and equal. And in a sense, Wonder Woman may be the product of Lies, Betrayal and Adultery; but in another sense, she is teh product, according to Hippolyta, of "absolute power...given up."
And "absolute power...given up" by sovereigns out of passion for each other sounds a lot like loving submission, which is what Wonder Woman was all about
Wonder Woman is who she is, despite the fact her mother may have been in a relationship with a married man. Frankly, I find the very idea of her being less because her mother made a "mistake" to be highly offensive.
Don't lose hope, Linkara and readers! All will be well. Wonder Woman may suddenly develop grievous bodily injury due her heritage, which will reqire of her body being molded from clay and animated by gods. And Bruce Timm.
And talking about correct characterization and WB : What comes to your mind about Young Justice cartoon and comic book Lewis ? It's not really an accurate portrait and has nothing to do with the New 52's series but at least is enjoyable, please post a word or two when you had time.
And as i have nothing else to say, let's music say it better :
I wonder if they're planning an arc for Wonder Woman where she turns evil and tries to overthrow the Olympian gods in some angst filled attempt to lash out at Zeus. Maybe they'll even include a little incest action with Ares.
When the inevitable fan backlash hits, they'll retcon it so that Hades was pulling the strings behind the scenes and secretly influencing Wonder Woman.
The only time I enjoeyed Wonder Woman was... well never and I've read stories from the Perez run, the Rucka run, the Himenez run, the Simone run and her various appearances in JLA.
The best I've seen her (personal opinion of course) was in the JLA issues by Kelly and Manhke.
She was a strong character there and It didn't bother with the whole "ambassador of peace stuff" which always seemed a bit hypocritical for a character who is also a warrior princes. And also travels to space to fight monsters. And also communicates with animals. And fights Doomsday with Hercules. Or Nazis. Or Businessmen. Or giant egg scientists.Or... All these different areas of interest just pile up and make her less defined and all over the place even for a comic book character.
Just give her her own place in the DCnU and keep her there. Mythology and the realm of gods. Not Nazis, not aliens no nothing. Keep it simple. Daughter of Zeus and an amazon queen, protector against the mythological/magical threats.
After the reboot I feel she is a much more defined and believable character in the context of her creation, mission etc. (again personal opinion)
Bottom line, I don't know if this is the best WW I've read yet, but it's easily the one I can explain to my friends without the need to spend 2 hours talking.
As for JL. The blockbuster pantheon comic I've been waiting since Morisson. I never cared for Cyborg but him having ties with Darkseid just made him a major player in my book (and I really loved MM.)
I love the action and the fact that the JL doesn't hold back against an "end of the world" menace just feels right.
Plus the best part of the whole DCnU. Aquaman. Just 2 pages and he steals the show for me. Like a king should. Simple and effective.
"Call me somthing crude because I have a differing opinion than your own? You sir/ma'am are an inspiration for our children. *eyeroll*"
You were the one who started implying to call names people who disagreed with you I'll quote you: "Any argument that would suggest that the new origin is an improvement on the grounds of giving Wonder Woman that it intigrates her into the mythos is, well, something I won't say here, but it isn't a good thing" so yeah...
"You know what else he said in that interview? That her origin would be in tact. He also white-washed it by adding the disclaimer of -in issue one.- Yeah, I'm not going to take a lot of what he says at face value."
I assume that he meant that he did not change her ORIGINAL origin story (the one Linkara reviewed) The entire "clay" background was only added when Marston re-visited her origin, and he dedicated less than a page, never bringing it up again. The part that defined Wonder Woman was why she left Paradise Island, and I believe that aspect of her origin is still unchanged
"Wonder Woman hasn't been about being angry and waiting for the next fight. She's not Ryu from Street Fighter. She's a kind and compassionate hero who's in it to be a shield for the world, not a sword."
She's willing to give her life for a complete stranger. She immediately jumped to help a person who just appeared in the middle of the night in her apartment. If she was just looking for a fight, she'd be probably taking a stroll in Iraq, Northern Ireland, or the Gaza stripe
"Wanna know something else that happened with a situation like that? Cassandra Cain turned evil"
That one was because Dido wanted a white Batgirl
"The only characterization that I think has been worse has been Superman in Action Comics."
Despite the fact that it's spot-on for Superman in his early days I seriously don't get Linkara's dislike for this one, someone like Lewis should know better. Just like Grant Morrisson chanelled the Silver Age with All-Star Superman, he's channeling the Golden Age with Action Comics. It's only appropriate! And for the first time ever, we have the chance to see the evolution of the character from his original incarnation to the most recent. If there's someone who can pull this, it's Morrison
So Sake Mangusto the wonder woman you want to see is ass kicking super heroine but a complete moron
Yeah I’m sorry but while the fight scenes for that movie is great Diana personality is borderline stupid. I mean her training Supergirl is a great idea and makes a lot of sense but the fact that instead of asking her or discussing it with Clark (her technical legal guardian she decides to say "screw that and tries to kidnap her."
Yeah Diana's a badass and her training Kara would be clever but she decides to do it in the most stupid way possible.
To be fair though she comes across less of an ass than Batman though. P.s. I enjoy the current wonder woman comics but to each his own
Your post is too long for me to rebuff point-by-point
Well, I think I could, but I don't have the time, nor the patience at the moment
I never accepted the George Perez origin. The only good thing to come out of his run was Circe.
If you want the true essence of Wonder Woman, you must go back to Marston
And while Azzarello's Diana may be more aggressive, he still manages to get the most important parts right
Marston never gave much attention to the clay part of her origin, and only introduced it as a brief side-note while re-visiting her origin http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u313/JKCarrier/Forum%20Stuff/wworigin.jpg
I think Perez may have in fact done some damage by dwelling on this aspect so much, since it introduced the misconception of Wonder Woman being a mere doll
Thanks again Lewis for keep this place a civilized beacon for free speech on the world wide web.
Can, but this doesn't mean you really need even if you are able, you explain why some people choose to remain anonymous even when they have a valid opinion of their own about any issues ?
Like said before everybody has the right to have their own opinions doesn't matter how much preposterous they might be (like considering Frank Miller, Howard Chaykin, Garth Ennis, Lewis Lovhaug, Edgar Rice Burroughs, William Moulton Marston and Frank Cho anythging less than genius who goes along together in the same pantheon ) and nobody needs to be persecuted for that because this place is civilized and keep it in order now by a well regulated militia of remote controlled cybernetic rodents with laser beams attached to their headless bodies.
In the end is anonymity really necessary when honest critical thinking is exposed the way it should be ? I guess everybody knows the correct answer for that.
And as the show must go on a old one in homage to the Spirit of the Truth wherever she is right now.
I wish there was the perfect song for this but i guess the best way to find the truth is add your own by yourself.
in my defense i didn't watch the movie, i read the comic book instead but i guess you know what i mean. Despite any criticism that cartoon is probably a better portrait of the kind of Wonder Woman i like even if she isn't a flawless Super Goddess unable to do anything wrong in any sense, characters can't be flawless.
@Annoyingnymous
Wonder Woman never was a warrior princess, Xena was a warrior princess and the rabid right wing homophobic christian twisted values media didn't cease until they finally take her away from the air waves.
They are two completely different characters with completely different motivations and DC should stop trying this moronic mash up.
They should mash up the Best of Perez with the Best of Marston instead, Azzarello missed the point about Who is Wonder Woman ? Why she came to the "World of Men" ? And What and How much is she willing to do what is needed to fight against evil ? Or maybe he is just trying to made her a kind of Buffy and give to her the monster of the month to kill at each issue.
Azzarello is not making Wonder Woman growing as a character in her own story, he is diminishing her.
"...introduced the misconception of Wonder Woman being a mere doll..."
A mere doll you say, well that's a "doll" who doesn't need kryptonite to kick Superman's ass if she needed it. And if your definition for a mere doll is a mythological creature who was created from clay and bring to life by the blessing of the Gods go check the collective mythos again pal, we are all descendants from a mythological figure that was made of clay and bring to life by God.
Look around and see what "mere dolls" were able to do in the past two thousand years at least without superpowers and magic gadgets.
Probably i am overreacting on that but i am not the one pissing around the grave of ancient modern folklore because isn't thrilling enough for me.
I imagine you want to see Azzarello giving her a machine gun and some rocket propelled grenades in future issues and kill the whole Greek pantheon all by herself until the end of next year, that looks more like your kind of Amazon.
I don't care about what you say after that, at least when Linkara disagrees with me i know he is using his brain at full potential even if i still don't agree with him at the end with him giving the best stream of logical thinking possible at the time, you on the other hand is just lazy.
If I may give an outsider's perspective of Wonder Woman, and by outsider I mean I have only started reading comic books in the past couple of months and the ones I've read, were all Marvel.
I'm 23 now, but when I was a real little kid the main superheroes I knew were Batman, Superman, the X-Men, and Wonder Woman. But unlike the rest, I only knew Wonder Woman from her appearance but I knew nothing of her. I knew about Batman and the X-Men from their animated series, and Superman from his animated series as well as the Adventures of Lois & Clark.
As I got a little older I saw that she had a live-action show from before I was born, but I never actually saw it, so I still knew nothing about Wonder Woman herself, outsider of her appearance and abilities. Then the Justice League cartoon came out which I loved but despite being one of the main heroes I feel like I didn't learn much about her(my memory sucks so I could just be forgetting things). Looking back on it, once the Justice League cartoon series ended I felt I knew more about Hawk Girl, John Stewart, & the Martian Manhunter(all of which I never heard of before the cartoon) than Wonder Woman.
It wasn't until Linkara's Amazon's attack prologue that I finally learned anything about Wonder Woman. Then eventually I saw Wonder Woman's animated movie which is my favorite DC movie overall, and loved it and that's the moment where I started to really like Wonder Woman. I see the question a lot of people saying she isn't as popular as Superman for this reason and that reason but as far as I'm concerned, from an outsider's prospective, I agree with FBH991, its because of lack of exposure outside the comic book world.
As for Wonder Woman's origin story, if DC writers were trying to attract me to read their books and just asked me which origin story I found more interesting, the clay one or the Zeus' daughter route, I definitely go with the clay one because it seems different. Having Zeus as a father just seems like something I've seen 1000 times over whether its Kratos in the video game world, Hercules: The Legendary Journeys in the TV world, Clash of the Titans in the movie world.
I know people who are fans of the new origin story are saying that this gives Diana a direct tie to the Greek mythos and opens up many possibilities with Wonder Woman and the Gods, but I'd like to think that if the writers wanted to have Diana have more to do with the gods, then a really talented writer would be able to find a way to do with with out going the cheap route of just making her Zeus' daughter.
And as for those who are complaining about Linkara not giving a reason as to why he thinks the comic is bad or that him not liking the new origin story isn't good enough reason for him to stop reading the comic, I must ask did we just listen to the same video? He clearly said that he wasn't a fan of the way Diana as well as the Amazons were being portrayed in the comics to begin with and the origin story was at most just the final thing that made him lose interest in something that he had already lost interest in. And he never said it was a bad book, actually he said its not a bad book, he basically said this particular Wonder Woman series just isn't his cup of tea.
In the past, people came up to me to ask the same question: 'I know Superman came to Earth in a rocketship and Batman saw his parents shot, but what's the origin of Wonder Woman?'
In the past, I've explained that she was a clay baby given life by the gods after her Amazon queen mother prayed for a child. The questioner looks blank, and tells me they just don't understand a word I've said, and therefore can never, ever try a Wonder Woman comic.
With the coming of Azzarello's version of the Amazon, I can tell them: 'Daughter of a god.' Immediately, they subscribe.
The Wonder Woman issue you had with the clay is the same problem I have with Marvel treating Vision. When I see Vision in Marvel he's either treated as the canon fodder or the butt of the joke because of his marriage. The accusation that Vision is just a robot. When I call bull because his origin was created from the remains of Jim Hammond the Human Torch. As stated by Antman his physical body is practically almost identical to a humans yet he's practically shown through x-rays another robot.
But it sells! They'd be stupid to shoot this potential cash-cow this early-on!
"They should mash up the Best of Perez with the Best of Marston instead, Azzarello missed the point about Who is Wonder Woman ? Why she came to the World of Men ? And What and How much is she willing to do what is needed to fight against evil ?"
Only that none of these has changed At least not until confirmed otherwise
"A mere doll you say, well that's a doll who doesn't need kryptonite to kick Superman's ass if she needed it."
You didn't get my point What I meant was that it created the illusion that she's just a clay-doll kept alive through magic. While most people are familiar with Greek gods, heroes, and monster, not that many are familiar with the story of Prometheus creating humanity from clay. Most people when seeing this origin, think immediately of the golem story. And these people include writers as well.
"I imagine you want to see Azzarello giving her a machine gun and some rocket propelled grenades in future issues and kill the whole Greek pantheon all by herself until the end of next year, that looks more like your kind of Amazon."
Definitely no to the first half, maybe to the second, alto I'd object that it's been done before. Azzarello is better than that. Modern weapons would definitely ruin the mythological theme of the book. A bow would be much more appropriate. Also wiping out the Olympian pantheon could make for a thrill, but it would be ultimately wasteful. Good thing Azzarello implied in a recent interview (related to issue 3) that this is not his intention. As far as I'm concerned, having WW police the gods would be a much more interesting concept.
I hated the new origin. I hated the genericness and the fact that she has a greater relationship to those basterds now more then anything. I had hopes for this, but Azzarello's arrogance in his interview when saying "we have made her better" just made me think these two words: Fuck you. I hate the Greek Pantheon and I liked the idea of Diana going out of her way to protect someone she didn't know and defy her Gods who want this woman dead because she was Zeus' latest booty call. I hate, HATE the Greek Pantheon and while reading Gail Simone's Wonder Woman, which I am going to read more often now, I kept thinking that Diana was the only GOOD thing those basterds have ever made. I am going to read more Batman. Thanks for the recommendation on that.
I really like Wonder Woman. I think Brian Azzarello has created a convincing and unexpected direction for the character that makes for a great read. Wonder Woman’s pretty well developed by this point, but it’s the other Amazons that really shine in this issue. Azzarello does a great job giving all of them distinct voices and personalities. This is a book that does not disappoint in terms of long-form story. It builds upon everything that came before in a big way.
Seeing how incredibly heated the debate on Wonder Woman's origin has gotten, I guess I should join-in as well. (puts in some Gorillaz tracks)
Honestly, I'm surprised people actually care so much. When someone asked me about Wonder Woman's origin, I told them about Steve Trevor crashing on Paradise Island, About Diana and the Amazons finding out about his mission, and about Diana following him to "man's world" to protect the mortals. At no point was there any need to bring-up the part about her being a clay-statue, and there's still no need to bring-up her being the daughter of Zeus outside of this particular arc. It's still the same Diana who made the same decisions in the past, did the same great deeds, and holds the same beliefs.
As far as I'm concerned, not much has really changed. But let us look a bit closer on this new origin, and compare it with things established by previous writers. In the Perez origin, which for some reason people seem to hold like some holly gospel, Demeter, Athena, Artemis, Aphrodite, Hestia, and Hermes were all involved in Diana's creation. Now, Athena and Aphrodite were involved even in the Marston version of the origin. Now let's look at the stuff that's currently going on. We have Hermes, one of the gods supposedly involved in Diana's creation, appear as one of her allies. When Diana's true origin is brought-up, Hermes seems to already know. He's aware of this despite the circumstances of Diana's birth being so well hidden, no even the Queen of Gods knew it. Which means that Hermes was most likely in on all of this from the start. Now, combined with Aphrodite and Athene already being established as the patrons of Themyscira, there's reason the believe that all the gods from the Perez origin were part of a conspiracy to protect Diana from Hera. In a way, these gods are STILL Diana's patrons. Not only that, but now they are even closer to her than before. They were all putting their necks on the line to protect little Diana from the wrath of the Queen of God's herself. They were facing actual danger! (And before anyone jumps saying that they are immortal, there are fates FAR worse than death - think Prometheus!) Of course, none of this is confirmed yet, but it certainly opens the possibility! Now let's look at the affair itself. As we know from Greek mythology, Zeus was basically the world's biggest serial rapist. While he never used violence to get his way, he'd often trick a woman into sleeping with him, or do the deed without the woman's knowledge. But here the whole thing happens completely consensually. No tricks. This time it's just Zeus as himself. We also get the scene of Zeus and Hippolyta dueling for a period of time that seems to be months, without there being a clear winner. This references two things. First, in the old Greek myths, Amazons would only accept a man as their lover if he's proven himself in combat (they would also kidnap weaker men, rape them, and then kill them, but that's a different story) Second, throughout the entire fight there does not seem to be a clear favorite. At no point does any of them gain the upper hand. You could almost say that they were EQUAL! (le gasp!) And isn't equality one of the things Wonder Woman is supposed to be about? Also in a recent interview, Azzarello said that love should be an essential part of Wonder Woman's origin. He implies that it was an act of love, rather than lust on Zeus' part. If that's true, it makes Diana even more unique than before. She's not just another of Zeus' bastard offspring, she may in fact be the only child he ever conceived out of love! Now think about that for a minute. Someone as vain and arrogant as Zeus' acknowledged someone as their equal, and actually fell in love with her for that reason.
I'm going to analyze even deeper, and take the sex-scene under the glass. Notice how Zeus and Hippolyta are taking turns in who's on top! As far as sexual symbolism goes, this means allot! A god allowed her to dominate him! As someone already pointed out, the entire affair is described as "absolute control - given-up" Diana wasn't created by the gods. She's not the result of some mere romp. She's literally born out of loving submission! I'll dare to say that so far Azzarello seems to get her more than any other writer besides Marston ever did! OK, I admit this is all just me over-analyzing the little information I have at hand, and that I may be proven wrong in future issues, but you are equally guilty of this. At least I'm being positive. But honestly, this origin would be perfect for a WW movie. The common viewer would have a romance to attach to, while the more intellectual ones could enjoy the symbolism. A cartoon series that wouldn't want to include such sexual themes could simply just start with Steve Trevor crash-landing on Paradise Island. Most people I know were perfectly happy with that explanation.
Now to the other complaints in your video, as well as in the comments.
The complaint about the behavior of the Amazons. I admit I've been a bit bummed out by the implication that the other Amazons excluded Diana for her supposed origin. But once I thought about it a bit, it's not as bad. As it was obviously demonstrated in the issue, all of the amazons are individuals! Each one of them has her own opinions and personality. They aren't just some drones made from the same mold! It's reasonable to believe that there were amazons that looked down upon her, as well as those who were truly loving ans sisterly towards her. And I believe that even the more harsh ones were truly loyal to the collective. As for why they are suddenly turning on Diana and possibly Hippolyta? Well, I can kinda understand that. Diana did kinda bring a malicious goddess to Themyscira, and this is not the first time she did something like this. Not to mention that her spending more time with mortals than her people doesn't necessarily strengthen the bonds. On top of that Eris (ok, she's called Strife in the comic, but I prefer her true Greek name, plus I'm a bigfan of Grim Adventures) is still on the island, and she's the goddess of conflict and discord. It only makes sense to assume that it's her turning the amazons against each-other. Why don't they just get rid of her? Well, how exactly do you get rid of a goddess without her laying waste to your home and all you hold dear? Which brings me to another point - how-come everyone's just chatting with Eris after all that she did?
(meanwhile I ran out of Gorillaz tracks to listen to, so I'm switching to some good-old David Bowie) So why does Diana tolerate Eris around after all she's done? (even tho we know she could fight her, as she did many times before with Ares?) I think one of the previous cementers already explained it pretty well. Diana and the Amazons think with their heads instead of their hearts on this one. Eris' bloodlust has momentarily passed, and as such she does not pose an immediate threat. Fighting her would only cause more unnecessary deaths, and even if they won, there's not much you can do with a god. It's allot like in the old myths where one moment a god could make your life a living hell, only to make you his champion the next. I'm however sure that if no-one else was in danger, Diana wouldn't hold back on this one.
Now to the claims that WW is now nothing more than Kratos with boobs. WRONG! Kratos only ever cared about vengeance, while Diana cares about the well-being of the ordinary people. Kratos would sacrifice countless of innocents only to get his way. Diana would sacrifice herself for a random stranger Kratos was a random bastard-child of Zeus, who got screwed-over by the gods. Diana may have been Zeus' only child to be ever born out of love, and was protected by several other gods from the wrath of Hera (still waiting for confirmation). In a way, Diana is anti-Kratos if nothing else. Evoking the God of War and 300 feel and aesthetics however is a very smart marketing move on DC's part. Greeksploitation is at a new height, and jumping of the bandwagon, combined with great writing, is a great way to bring WW to public attention. And so far it works! A feminist site even included the series as one of the best current ongoings (along with Batwoman and Buffy)
Which brings me to the final point, the theme and direction. I fully agree that this is a department in which Wonder Woman was always lacking. Marston had a good thing going on in the early days, where he could have Diana's femininity be a central theme. She was a powerful female hero, who fought formidable female opponents (the Baroness, Cheetah, Doctor Poison, Giganta), or male opponents who'd like to humble her for her femininity (Duke of Deception, Doctor Psycho). But with Marston's death and the arrival of CCA, the series pretty-much became "Bewitched with superheroes" When it finally became safe to talk about gender-equality again, and Dennis O'Neil got a chance to re-vitalize the series, he turned Wonder Woman from an amazon into a travelling martial artist fighting against terrorists. (and while we are at this point in her history, I want anyone objecting against Wonder Woman using guns to look at this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/WonderWoman1970s.jpg BEST. COVER. EVER!) Gerry Conway eventually did a "back to the roots" , but while good, there already were many other female heroes around, so Diana just wasn't as unique anymore. George Pérez tried to increase the importance of her mythological background, but was responsible for allot of convoluted elements in the background, and damaged her supporting cast by basically pulling a One More Day on Diana and Steve (he was actively preventing the two from ever getting together again), ammongst other things. At least Azzarello did his change in a way that makes all the previous stories still possible. Due to these inconsistencies over the year, Wonder Woman was all over the place, unable to maintain a theme, a supporting cast, or a rogues gallery. With the current surge in popularity of gritty Greek mythology, combined with the relaunch, and Azzarello's attempts at building WW as a combination of her Golden Age roots (unlike Perez) and even stronger use of Greek myths (which he seems to be VERY well versed in), there is a chance he may be the one to finally succeed to establish her (he did get her into the top 20) And if not him, there's always Grant Morrison with his planned Golden Age throwback.
Finally, I'll address the long-overdue comment on Action Comics (meanwhile I ran out of David Bowie, so I'll just switch to some fun 80s pop) I personally think it's a genius move on GM's part. When Action Comics #1 came out at the end of the 30s, the world was in the middle of the great depression. Superman gave people what they wanted, a powerful her who would stand-up for the little-man. Now the world's in the middle of another economic crisis. Corporation's are attempting to seize even more power over our everyday lives than they already have (do I really need to remind you of the recent internet censorship act?) And in the middle of all this, a new Action Comics #1 appears, with superman once again protecting the little man from the corrupt corporate The timing couldn't be any better this GM perfectly tapped into the essence of the era, which is also probably why the series is in the top 3 It was time for this Superman to make a return
(damn, why do these things always take so much time to write?)
If you like the Batman book and I mean "Batman" then i suggest you pick up the new Penguin miniseries Pain and Prejudice. It's a great character study of one of Batman's most ridiculed villains and makes him awesome.
I got a question, did Superman just kill a bunch of parademons in Justice League issue 3. I mean if you look at him when he is fighting them he is tearing their limbs off. I mean that doesn't really sound Superman like. Can someone please tell me whether parademons are living or not? Like are paradeomns robots or real living organisms? I hope there robots, because Superman should NEVER KILL!
I don't understand why they don't just say that Wonder Woman has two mums and she was born when Hippolita's partner prayed to the goddesses beause Hippolita wanted a daughter. Solves the issue of where Diana came from and gives DC brownie points for having a loving lesbian couple raise a child together.
It appears I'm in the minority but I actually prefer the reboot Wonder Woman reconnected origin story included because it better fits in with both my personal opinion of the world/humanity in general and how ancient greek amazons would act. I'm not trying to convince others it's just mu opinion. Thats all I'm saying.
The main reasons for which are as follows: 1.To me the prejudice against Diana and the desire for a coup against Hippolyta shows the Themyscirian community has been given greater realism in regards to what they are an isolated human society unified for historical reasons but not technically an actual utopia. Their prejudice against Diana for believing the clay origin is reasonable given real world: racial, national, and cultural prejudices. Their desire to stage a coup against Queen Hippolyta is also not unreasonable because if they have gotten to the stage of considering such action means talking and negotiation has failed thus bringing about the abolishion of the monarchy in a way more in line with the modern, widely recognised reality of those with/in near to absolute power never want to give it up. (I know it doesn't state the amazons tried talking and negiogating with Queen Hippolyta the comic but it stands to reason and thus should occur to the reader as what has happened given those of the intended audience age range would have enough of a basic theoretical and historical political understanding). 2.Also to me the idea of human child being conceived in/born in clay makes more sense as a cover story otherwise is as silly/daft being s .U.S.1's coin remote control. Also they at least show Zeus respected Hippolyta as kind of an equal given how they are drawn fighting together instead of having Diana as either Zeus or Heracles rape child that Athena made her keep as a personal: punishment for allowing the amazons to be defeated by Heracles/second reminder of the subsequent slavery, (the first being the bullet proof chain bracelets).
When you get down to it in any iteration the amazons are an: archaic, isolationist, highly gender prejudice cult. Not exactly mass appeal protagonist culture.
I can't believe I read all these year-and-a-half reviews, and I got 1 thing: people are idiots. And did no-one mentioned that Diana's original origin made her been born without the intervention of Man and that's awesome? Ugh. Anyway, that completely turned me off, but I stuck around until you-know-what, I should've known
Why don't you try looking at some new books? I mean, pick up a trade or something? Marvel is pretty spectacular with collected editions of their classic material, and old stuff is still worth recommending, so far the only Marvel books you've been looking at are Deadpool and Avengers Academy. It just seems like you're missing a huge opportunity to make this show more informative than it has been as of late.
ReplyDeleteAlso, sorry for the double post, but why haven't you been reading Journey into Mystery by Kieron Gillen? I can't help but think you would love it! You should really try to get caught up on that series.
ReplyDeleteEven when it was tieing into Fear Itself it could be appreciated on it's own merits and it's loads of fun, high concept fantasy with a sense of humor that really puts a smile on my face.
As somone who barely knows anything about Thor past Simonson's run in the 80s, its a real treat!
Green Lantern Corps #3: I also enjoyed this one. Lots of fun action. I had no idea about Hannu. Thanks for the tidbit, makes the plot point clear for us new readers.
ReplyDeleteJustice League #3: Can't agree more on all points. I also liked the tweaks to Aquaman's design since it is 5 years ago.
Batman #3: Snyder is doing amazing with this book. The use of architecture and history to figure out his enemy is great. I love Batman in all out action, but detective Batman is my absolute favourite. This book started on an action high and moved into detective work. It was a perfect balance for me. Oh and the magnet trick was great.
Deadpool #46: I just got back into Deadpool with #45. I did some reading and decided to not worry about going back. So this arc is my first read in about 9 years. I am loving these 2 issues, it was hilarious. The banter between them is just great. I hope this arc keeps up the quality because I love it so far.
Wonder Woman #3: I didn't read this, so I can't give an opinion. I didn't like the first issue, so I didn't keep up. I agree with you about change. Things are allowed to change (look at the history of just about every character), just make the change worth it. For some they will work, for others they won't. This is also true of original mythos, Some people will like it, some won't.
Writers need to stay away form daddy issues for a while. It is simply a cliche now.
Wow, that's surpricing. An origanl backstory is turns out to be a lie and the truth is the one that was cliche even back in ancient Greek times. I don't blaim you for dropping it.
ReplyDeleteI have to say, that I agree with you somewhat on Wonder Woman and this is the first run of Wonder Woman I've read. There was nothing wrong with the original origin, so why not just have it so Zeus gave her life instead of being her literal father?
ReplyDeleteThat said, I'll stick around for a few more issues to see if they can bring back the momentum I think it had in the first two issues.
I almost totally agree with you on wonder woman. Though I am not totally loving the art as you as I really hate some of the gods new look and diana collar scheme now. What the hell was dc thinking with this WW? Lets make her annoying and just really rip off a bunch of other things including wonder girl.
ReplyDeleteSince you're droping Wonder Woman, maybe I could suggest a couple other titles for you? If you were a fan of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Ghostbusters, they may be worth a look. I pick them up and I enjoy them. Or, if you're looking more mainstream, Marvel's new Avengers Academy arc is shaping up to be fun. I'm also enjoying The Incredible Hulk (if you can forgive some of the science) and Thunderbolts. Daredevil's been real good in my opinion too since it re-launched.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I wanna reccomend the recent Spider-Girl trade, Family Values, starring the main universe Spider-Girl, Anya Corazon.
As for the DC stuff... well, our tastes are fairly the same in that regard, so I can't really make a new suggestion other than I was about to drop Detective Comics until #3 got to be pretty decent and much less gory.
So far the new DC universe doesn't really impress me. I am trying to keep an open mind about it, but I keep waiting for something to "wow" me, and just hasn't happened as of yet.
ReplyDeleteI was really disappointed by the new 52 this week. Catwoman was terrrrrrrrible, so bad I dropped it, JL was the biggest pile of nothing I've read in a long time (seriously, stop decompressing! It has its place, but this was not that great), Wonder Woman was dumb, but the stuff about the Greek myths are enough to keep me interested as long as I squint and pretend that it's a new version of Fury rather than Diana. Even My Greatest Adventure wasn't all that good. Blue Beetle was the best of this week, but it wasn't anything special, either.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think Geoff Johns would have picked up on the whole "Taking the origin story of the side-kick" since he was writing Teen Titans when Cassie discovered that.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree with you less on Wonder Woman Linkara. Wonder Woman's new origin expandes Wonder Woman's world so that she's more integrated with mythology. It allows her to fill in a void that Batman and Superman don't fill in the big three. Batman is the detective, pulp action hero. Superman is an alien from another world that adopts our culture as his own, a science fiction hero. Now Wonder Woman is the daughter of a god, and has a strong role for her superhero adventures, like Superman and Batman. All their origins are 'cliche' in way now. That's a good thing, because their archetype backgrounds allows us to lower suspension of disbelief alot easier and let's us slide into exceptions of the character better.
ReplyDeleteYour forgetting for every good John or Gail story there have been 15 crappy Wonder Woman runs. With people having no idea how to build a supporting cast for her, what she should do outside the Justice League, or even what her characterization is. So many writers have written her as token novelty feminist icon or Superman with tits or even as a golem who isn't even human it just drives me crazy.
This run isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. While It has created an excellent supporting cast for Wonder Woman, hell the best she's ever had, she doesn't seem to be the main character in her own book.
I'd wish you'd stick it out more and try to trust Brian Azzarello with what he's trying to do here even if it goes against previous your previous exceptions of the character. Because it's a fun ride for me and most other comic readers.
Every time I see you talking about a good Batman book and the like, I love hearing you praise it, but also feel kinda bad since I have stopped reading DC books. I was following Batman, Teen Titans, and a few others, but as soon as I heard about the relaunch, well I had been on the fence about DC's quality for a while now, and the news of the relaunch clenched it for me and I stopped reading them all together(which really killed me on the inside since Batman was the first superhero I ever knew and loved). I'd also already been reading Marvel for years, so now I am strictly a Marvel Zombie(in the old sense of the term).
ReplyDeleteI don't know where I'm going with this, but sometimes I wonder if I'd like to hear someone talk me into picking up a book or two from the DC rack, but at the same time I'm still holding out for the continuity I lost because of this unnecessary reboot.
Final note: I agreed with EVERYTHING you said about Wonder Woman. You always manage to get the nail right on the head, Lewis.
Zeus as the father of the hero was cliche before the rise of Rome.
ReplyDeleteUndead Unicorn said:
ReplyDelete"Wonder Woman's new origin expandes Wonder Woman's world so that she's more integrated with mythology."
Her origin was already integrated with mythology. She was sculpted from clay, given life by Greek goddesses, and a member of the Amazon tribe, and given superpower gifts from those same goddesses (and Hermes). This new origin LIMITS her origin, now she's not a product of numerous Greek gods and goddesses, nor is she the prized heir to the Amazon legacy. Now, she's the bastard offspring of ONE god, been lied to all her life, and many of the Amazons distrusted her. For stupid reasons.
"It allows her to fill in a void that Batman and Superman don't fill in the big three."
She ALREADY filled that void. She was already more of a champion and advocate than Batman or Superman could be.
"Batman is the detective, pulp action hero. Superman is an alien from another world that adopts our culture as his own, a science fiction hero. Now Wonder Woman is the daughter of a god, and has a strong role for her superhero adventures, like Superman and Batman."
She ALREADY had a strong role for her superhero adventures. Just because that role was missed or marginalized doesn't mean it wasn't THERE. Just as Batman became more of an eccentric police officer, or just happy funtimes adventurer in the Silver Age, but has returned to his roots as a mysterious protector of the night. Just as Superman had become more of a stern and sometimes cruel father figure in the Silver Age, and has (occasionally) returned to his most popular characterization as the shining beacon and example we should strive to be. So too will this be yet another blip on the miscasting of WW before she (one day, I'm sure of it!) returns to her best characterization as one who champions the weak and defense their freedom against otherworldly threats (not just mythological ones).
"All their origins are 'cliche' in way now. That's a good thing, because their archetype backgrounds allows us to lower suspension of disbelief alot easier and let's us slide into exceptions of the character better."
It's not just that Diana's new origin is cliche or archetypical (which her older original ALREADY WAS), it's that a) this has been done before, b) adds nothing new or good to her, and c) shows that the people in charge still don't get what it is that makes her awesome.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, Linkara.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts on this week:
Green Lantern Corps - you got this exactly right. All action, but very good action. It had me quite entertained.
Justice League - you're also pretty much right on this one. Very solid, action pack issue. And the ice cream scene was just great. Very enjoyable for me.
Batman - This book is amazing. Seriously. The writing is just superb. So yeah, again we're in the same boat.
Nightwing - You were perhaps a little more positive for this one than I was. This book just strikes me as particularly average. In a lot of ways it was the least exciting thing I read this week. It's not bad, though. There were some kind of fun moments, I just didn't feel like it really offered much to get excited about.
Blue Beetle - It's my first time with this character, so it's probably only natural that I'd be more receptive to this book. The first two issues were kind of slow to me, but this one did a lot to convince me to keep with it. Very solid issue in my opinion.
Wonder Woman - And yeah, this is where the biggest disagreement comes for the week. I didn't really care too much for this issue either, but it was for completely different reasons. I really love the look of this book, and most of the dialog is just great in my opinion. It's not on my very upper tier, but I think it's a very good book. The thing is, I personally don't care one way or the other about one origin versus the other as long as I see a compelling story unfold with strongly defined characters. That's why this issue was kind of a problem for me. It was just really slow. Too much time was spent on the origin stuff I didn't particularly care about and not enough time was spent on moving the plot ahead. After the great first two issues it was something of a let down.
Best book of the week for my money was Birds of Prey #3. Also excellent but not covered was Supergirl.
Sounds like the Amazons are being turned into Female Spartans, WARRIOR women first and foremost. Hence WW's more aggresive persona.
ReplyDeleteEh, Why Zeus? Zeus is a dick and it's never gonna amount to anything! If you honestly wanted to debunk the clay thing for whatever reason... pick someone interesting not Olympus' number one man whore!
I notice you didn't review Supergirl #3. It wasn't a great issue, but it was actually starting to go somewhere, and the coloring got a lot better. I forget what you said about #2, though, and I can understand dropping it there, but there is at-least some forward motion in the story, but then, Superman still looks so generic in the book.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Uncanny X-Men vol 2 (I guess) #1 was pretty good. Looks like the arc is that Cyclops wants the X-Men to be more superheroish and be more like the Avengers so people will see the positive good mutants can do and what-not. I'm more of a DC guy too, but I recommend it.
"...This new origin LIMITS her origin, now she's not a product of numerous Greek gods and goddesses, nor is she the prized heir to the Amazon legacy...."
ReplyDeleteLook at you wrote. Look at how long it took you to summarize Diana origin. It's a convoluted mess compared to Batman's or Superman's. Your right, it limits her origin. But limitations aren't bad things. They make you focus your attention, force you to be more meticulous with details, and can even force to be more creative within it's constrains.
But in any case her origin is much like other members of the trinity now in its simple but resonating power. Adopted son from another world, fighting for justice. Vigilante striking out at injustice in the name of vengeance. Daughter of a god and a queen fighting to maintain a natural balance between the two. Old stories, but classics.
"She ALREADY filled that void. She was already more of a champion and advocate than Batman or Superman could be."
No, she didn't. Once again, she had a couple good writers spread out through the years but most people didn't know what to do with her. Even during good runs, alot of stories could have been filed off and been replaced with Superman or another cape hero.
Her personality might have been different from Superman, not her 'setting'. At the time of her creation her being a woman who was also a superhero was a big enough divergence from the norm it made her stand out. Now other strong female character who aren't just sidekicks or spinoffs from male counterparts have emerged and it doesn't cut it any more. What she does have for her that everyone knows is the fact she's connected to Greek mythology, that she's an Amazon. Brain decided to build her up her setting and role more in the new DC, by increasing this connection. Superman is the space hero now, with sci fi and alien trappings. Batman is the street level guy fighting mafia dons and psycho clowns, and doing good old fashioned detective work here and there. Wonder Woman is a fantasy hero now, fighting gods and ancient monsters and what not. Writers now have a better frame to work with her now because of this simpler, iconic origin. Like any of them someone is going to bring out something out there that doesn't fit this setting and it's going to be fun because of it, but that doesn't stop the importance of the solidifying her setting.
"Just as Superman had become more of a stern and sometimes cruel father figure in the Silver Age, and has (occasionally) returned to his most popular characterization as the shining beacon and example we should strive to be."
ReplyDeleteFirst Batman Brave and the Bold is cool Silver Age fun.
Second that's very vague sounding and is so for a reason. It's only in the Silver Age Superman became the golden son of America and it's greatest protector. Alot of those stories were also good, and can stand up even now. It's why the industry survived in fact. He was a figure appropriate for his time.
But Golden Age Superman or Grant's Action Comics Superman are taking off for this reason. We're in very politically and culturally unstable times, were the only thing we know is the big guy is after the little guy. No one trusts the status quo and wants a public champion. And a public champion won't be the establishments side because no one in the real world trusts them anymore.
Bronze Age Superman stories (when they were good) played him off like Captain America, as a man from a simpler purer era that refused to bend his personal morals in face of a darker, modern world. That was because it was during a period where we as a culture just realized how assish the type of nationalism Superman was and how naive in morally as well, while appreciating his moral certainty, purity, and clarity, and wanted to find a way to apply that moral center to the (that the time) complex modern world.
Wonder Woman's no different, she's going through an important (though very different reasons) change for this new rebooted universe.
Though that didn't change the fact he still fight primarily aliens or mad scientists, lol.
For the triple post but I really thought about this Linkara.
ReplyDelete"(which her older original ALREADY WAS), it's that a) this has been done before, b) adds nothing new or good to her, and c) shows that the people in charge still don't get what it is that makes her awesome."
A Pandora like origin while magical isn't very heroic in an archetypical sense though. Giving anyone an origin story that is similar to the one caused the stereotype of "stupid woman gets curious and said curiosity fucks over men big time, hence why they women should mind their place" doesn't slide me into getting a mode hoping for epic heroism.
You have no idea how much i needed to hear someone else get mad about Wonder Woman #3. I can't stand that issue or how this "new" Diana is portrayed in the reboot. I honestly hope enough people drop the book so DC will listen to fans about something other then costume changes.
ReplyDeleteDid you get a chance to check out Demon Knights? I was having a lot of fun with the previous issues but was very appalled by a few scenes in this book. And not in a good way. I'm interested to hear your take on it.
ReplyDeleteThey still haven't said where Donna Troy or Wally West fit into the new continuity.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you on the Wonder Woman thing. For me, the preferred version of Diana and the Wonder Man mythos was the Wonder Woman animated movie they did a few years back. That WW was reasonably modernized and could easily hold her own against any one of the major hitters in the DCU.
ReplyDeleteI didn't have anything from this week's comic books myself, since I was only interested in Blue Beetle and I dropped that right after I saw they were just redoing the origin story. I might take a look at Batman, but I tend to avoid most of the mainstream titles like Batman, Superman and Justice League in favor of the "Dark" and "Edge" titles
I found Green Lantern Corps to be epic, though I do sometimes worry that Peter Tomasi thinks it's okay to introduce characters to a story and then kill them, but still a great book, I especially like the lizard green lantern who has the ring on his tounge since he had his arms cut off.
ReplyDeleteNightwing was certainly good for character development, and the stuff at the funeral at the start was very good I felt
Dear Lewis,
ReplyDeleteas a fellow reader i am sadly happy because the amateur and the professional critic finally find common ground to agree about something else than "we love comic book but...", your Wonder Woman #3 review is flawless, there is nothing you said i don't have to argue about and the shame is all own DC's idiotic management.
In my early days around this corner of the web i behave like a douche complaining about "Why" did you love JLI so much while "I" did find something clearly swiss cheesy to laugh and rant about, after coming to my senses before ruined a perfectly loosely based imaginary friendship with a hero i discovered is just human like me and not some sort of one dimensional pop star figure anybody can worship and puppet around i apologize to you and i do it again now : "Sorry for what happened at the beginning of JLI."
And to complete trhe path of healing : "Sorry brother for Wonder Woman #03, sorry because we both deserved something better to read and care about, sorry because if JLI was that bad we probably would had nothing to be arguing about for so long despite the fact the nagging was all my fault, for the love of God can't DC do anything right this days concerning their female characters ?
They are the ones who should be asking for forgiveness but i know my own sins, i know the limits for my passive-aggressive borderline behavior, not citing names here but do DC Comics knows theirs ?
Will they practice restrain and moderation what so ever ? Did i really have the need to use the kind of crap they write this days for my language practice ? How much time we still have before Linkara turns DC Comics into a well deserved living hell of fire because if things keep coming this way who can blame him for because the right hand of doom with a hat instead of horns ?
I'm really sad when we have something bad to agree about that stains any argument we may have about anything else like JLI or the Blackhawks for that matter, disagree with you in a civilized manner is a lot more fun even if i can only watch any blushing giggles of disagreement in my own mind.
The team will keep the flag half way down this week and Clearly not-Loudly (at least this time) All We have to say is this... Sorry Mr. Lovhaug, you really deserve something better to review.
Ok guys, Mr. Cash if you please...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY&feature=related
And That's All I Love.
You know any change can be labeled bad right?
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of Wonder Woman:
ReplyDeleteI never read DC (or any comics really) before the relaunch, so I can't comment on her characterisation before then. However, I am enjoying WW so far (I studied Classics, so the Greek references are keeping me hooked).
Making her the offspring of Zeus, however, seems really, really dumb! Yes, it ties her to many of the old Greek heroes, but the idea of clay giving birth is already something from Greek myth - Prometheus fashioned man out of clay and the gods breathed life into them (http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Creation_of_Man_by_Prometheus/creation_of_man_by_prometheus.html). It links her to humanity, which from what I've seen of your show and read on the internet, is an important aspect of Diana's character.
Yes, I will keep reading. I'm loving the reimagining of many Gods, and, as I said above, the myth references, but I'm more aprehensive now. The born-of-clay thing was something which really interested me when it was brought up in issue 2, so this new version needs some damn impressive payoff.
One thing I've been wondering since I managed to read the first two issues of Green Lantern since the reboot is how repentant is Sinestro?
ReplyDeleteBecause he seems to have finally realised that he did not have a great recruitment policy with the Sinestro corp I'm wondering if he is starting to think that the whole corp was a failure and that reflects on himself or if he just blames them for not following his orders (as he has done so far).
It seems like a really interesting time for Sinestro in terms of character development.
I do agree with you on Batman. Scott Snyder, unlike Mr. Morrison, can make a compelling story without making it seem like I turned over two pages. Now, there has been some flack for this issue because people think that Bruce would never allow the Court of Owls to get away with operating within Wayne Tower itself. I on the other hand think it was a damn good twist. Bruce was always so focused on crime outside his fortress that I don't think he'd consider that the Court has already infiltrated the tower and, given the info we learn about Alan Wayne, have probably been operating from the tower since before Bruce was born.
ReplyDeleteThought Shade #2 was out this week, only to fine DC can be lying liars who lie. T_T I really enjoyed the first issue...well except for Deathstroke's costume...just ugh.
Onto Wonder Woman. I don't pick up WW, not because I don't like the character but 1. I don't really know an extreme amount of her outside of random info I pick up now and again (Your Prologue to Amazon's Attack vid was very helpful) and just the issue of $. But I do agree in regards to the rather blandness of Wondy's new origin (and thank you for associating it with Cassandra Sandsmark's origin. Anything that reminds me of that character makes me cringe as I've written in my own reviews of the new TT). In regards to characterization of WW being so bad, a lot of authors "seem" to not get her, but I think that is not the case. I think it is the idea that Wonder Woman is not only a superhero but also the "ideal woman", a concept that reeks subjectivity. Again, I could just be talking out of my ass though.
"Did you get a chance to check out Demon Knights? I was having a lot of fun with the previous issues but was very appalled by a few scenes in this book. And not in a good way. I'm interested to hear your take on it."
ReplyDeleteAs it happens, my shop had last week's issue, so I bought it and read it along with the ones for this week. I still enjoyed it - more character development. Yes, a bit of gruesomeness, but at the same time this IS a book set in medieval times, and with the number of swords and horrid trolls and demons walking the land, I don't expect it to be the kid-friendliest of books.
On my own personal level, I don't mind Wonder Woman's new change or personality change. Frankly, I wasn't really getting attached to the former Wonder Woman to begin with. I read 3 stories in the past of her, two by Greg Rucka and one by Gail Simone. Gail Simone's story was good, but didn't have that spark I need to want to continue. Greg Rucka's stories were either medicore and very enjoyable (Down to Earth was very well written), but I just couldn't get into it enough to continue (that and can't find anymore of his WW books).
ReplyDeleteNow, on to other things. In Feburary of next year, DC is releasing Batman Beyond and the next story arc of DC Comics Presents this time staring The Challengers for 3 issues. Will you be trying these two out? Could be a good way to try new things? Also, by any chance get this month's Animal Man and Demon Knights?
On to the comics themselves, I'm buying only two of those (I'm reading in the store Nightwing) and its Batman and Wonder Woman. WW hasn't arrived yet, but I got Batman. It is awesome. Just so much fun, great mystery building, and lots of solid action. Hard to believe this arc still has 8 more issues in it.
Good morning, Linkara.
ReplyDeleteA highly violent Wonder Woman, eh? Frankly, sir, I don't see what you're so upset about. I mean, making Wonder Woman highly violent worked out so well for her in Kingdom Come...wait. I meant Infinite Crisis...wait. Crap. :)
Poor Brik disappeared between issues of GLC.
ReplyDeleteGoing by your opinions of the relaunched Wonder Woman, I can't help but think that DC turned her into Kratos from God of War.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm surprised your enjoying the recent Deadpool stuff since IGN's reviewers are downright vicious in criticizing the current run lately. I initially dropped Deadpool because I wasn't enjoying the current arc at the time plus needing my comic money for the other stuff I read like Avenger's Academy and Venom but maybe I'll start picking it up again.
Got to disagree with Undead Unicorn and others. I think Linkara hit it on the head when he said this new origin for Wondy was generic.
ReplyDeleteIllegitimate Child of Zeus basically just makes her Hercules. We've seen this scenario so often, in so many other different media I don't really see how anyone can be excited about it.
Further, as a (male) feminist I'm more than a little :\ about the fact this is obviously setting up for a wrath of Hera story. While they're hardly the most misogynistic Greek myths, it's kind of pointing in that direction (basically it excuses Zeus's infidelities by making Hera a psychotic shrew.
This is Wonder Woman. Wold it be too much to ask to have an origin for her which is pro-female?
I keep reading about different people's takes on Wonder Woman, and a lot of them,I think, miss the obvious. Not with her origin, but with her mannerism (love) and mission. To me, she's Classical Myth Jesus. A Blasphemous statement? Probably, but think about it. She's defined heavily by love, as is the place she ultimately comes from. She's quasi-divine (having blessings from damn near half a pantheon), and she's sent to the rest of the world to help it. That sounds pretty Jesus-like to me. That she approaches enemies with an open hand solidifies it even more.
ReplyDeleteAnd that may be the unspoken problem a lot of writers have: they either can't accept her as Classical Myth Jesus, or the run into the problem of, well, writing Jesus! Adding darkness or negative inter-personal or personal problems to the character mars the concept of Jesus being . . . Christ. Not everyone can pull off a "Last Temptation of Christ". They're more likely to create a gnostic knockoff. That's the way I see it, anyway.
I felling that people who write comic books those days, hate them.
ReplyDeleteI will not complain about the changes because many changes that at first seemed bad, later became classic.
However with Wonder Woman it's bad writing, don't matter the changes the history is not good.
I will not complaing about change the character if has a character.
Serious! The Red Lanterns have more deep motivations, this Diana just don't make sense.
Its a bidimensional boring character.
And people that read comics this days forgiven too much and being treath whithout respect from people of the industry.
Recently I watch a interview with STan Lee, where he said that in the 60/70 no one thing about the heroes 20 years in the future because they are to worried to make the books live until the next month.
Today we have a lot of comic readers who accept any crap are given and people from the industry doesn't have any worries to please nobody.
This DC Reboot campaing was a Joke.
I don't saw nothing to catch new readers or bring the old ones back.
And I believe I dont need to give examples about it here.
My personal opinion about WW this month is that it was 3 pages worth of expository dialogue that could've easily been in the last issue, but instead drawn out to 22 pages of nothing happening.
ReplyDeleteIn 3 issues Wonder Woman saved 1 girl from an assassin and ... well ... pretty much hung around Paradise Island waiting for her cue. Who wants to read a comic book about Wonder Woman not doing interesting things?
Speaking as a greek history/mythology nut, I actually like her new origin story. It really fits her background material. Now, she's not just another generic superhero or a confusing mess, but can be displayed more prominantly in her origins, for instance:
ReplyDelete-"Daddy issues" are just the start of her problems. Heracles (Hercules) is now her half-brother. Awkward.....
-Speaking of family, well, check out Zeus' Wikipedia page. Yeah, he has a lot of kids, doesn't he? Can you say "supporting cast?"
-Her previous origin was similar to Pandora's (Pandora's Box) while her new ones are closer to classic greek heros, like Orion or Perseus.
-New toys! How about blocking a superweapon with Aegis, borrowing Pegasus to evacuate hostages, or heck, just plain beating up supervillians with Zeus' thunderbolts?
-She's not an anomaly anymore. Small point, but the greek gods rarely collaborated around one mortal. Even then, it was usually just one or two gods.
-The Amazons are now more greek. The greek pantheon, and most all of the mythological characters had human flaws and foibles. Hera was wrathful, Athena was prideful, Zeus was LEGENDARY in his affairs. The idea of a paradise? Really, that's a Biblical theme, not Greek.
On a personal note, I hope this helps solidify the character somewhat. As Linkara has noted, public consious isn't kind to WW, and that's not helped by wildly different variations of her character, nor by how generic she comes off as sometimes. The JLU incarnation is her latest, and it did get used quite well in the cartoon. Here's hoping they can mold her into being just as iconic as Superman or Batman.
SERIOUSLY?!
ReplyDeleteSorry, burtr this is probably THE stupidest reason to drop a book I have EVER heard of!
The circumstances of Wonder Woman's birth were NEVER important
It's her reasons and motivation for leaving Paradise Island that truly matter!
YOU SAID THAT YOURSELF!
SERIOUSLY!
First good Wonder Woman run since William Marston (and MAYBE Denny O'Neil), and you drop it for such petty reasons
Son, I'm dissapoint
Undead Unicorn wrote:
ReplyDelete"Look at how long it took you to summarize Diana origin."
That's not summarizing her origin, that's giving DETAILS about her origin. That's like looking at the various skills and disciplines Bruce Wayne learned on his journey to eventually becoming Batman. Or the lessons Clark Kent had to be taught about his powers and how to use them properly before he became Superman. They're important because they shaped who they eventually became, but they're not the ORIGIN.
The origin of Superman in a nutshell: Rocketed away from a dying planet as a child, gains powers beyond that of mortal men on Earth.
The origin of Batman in a nutshell: witnessed his parents' murder as a child, was driven to fight crime as an adult.
The origin of Wonder Woman in a nutshell before issue 3 of her new title: sculpted from claw by a lonely mother, granted various gifts and abilities by the Greek goddesses.
The origin of Wonder Woman in a nutshell NOW: Mom and Zeus fucked. Mom got pregnant.
Which one is really all that much more interesting?
"But in any case her origin is much like other members of the trinity now in its simple but resonating power."
. . . "Mom and Zeus fucked. Mom got pregnant" isn't resonating. It's bland, cliche in the bad way, uninspired, and really hack writing. It's lazy.
"Adopted son from another world, fighting for justice. Vigilante striking out at injustice in the name of vengeance. Daughter of a god and a queen fighting to maintain a natural balance between the two."
That's not their origin, that's their character engine, their storytelling engine. And Wonder Woman's previous storytelling engine was "Champion of the gods, fighting for peace and understanding." That's epic in scale, in concept. It speaks to underlying truths about humanity, and when handled well, might even help provide answers. Now she's "Fights monsters." EVERY super hero fights monsters.
"Old stories, but classics."
In the case of the menfolk, they're old stories, and classics, in the sense that Supes and Bats pretty much originated them; and where they didn't, they refined them, distilled them to their Platonic, classic, ideal. Wondy's new origin is a rehash of the kind of stories that were old in the times of the ancient Greeks. It's old, sure, but it's classic only in the sense of the historical period it originates from.
"Once again, she had a couple good writers spread out through the years"
Perez, Rucka, Simone, Moeller, plus good stories under Messner-Loeb, Byrne, Jiminez, Luke . . . Wonder Woman's quality, just since COIE, has been just as varied as any other superhero. Saying the good stuff was "spread out over the years" is just as true as Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor . . .
"Her personality might have been different from Superman, not her 'setting'."
Yes, her setting. Superman tends to face "super-science" threats, or fat old guys in tweed. Wonder Woman tends to face mythological threats, or magic threats. It's not a question of her gender, and never has been. People who think "Oh, she's the girl superhero" are what keep her down.
I know this is going to be brought up, but I'm curious what you think now that Marvel has no female solos?
ReplyDeleteJust to be clear, there are still some female centric books, like Generation Hope which centers around Hope Summers, X-Men Legacy which is almost a Rogue solo, Fearless which is Valkyrie's mini, and Avengers Academy which has 5 females to 3 males currently.
Sir,
ReplyDeletepeople like you are THE reason why no-one likes Wonder Woman, and why she's been such a mess for the past 30 years or so
As someone already pointed out, Wonder Woman had no place in the DC universe before this
She lacked a theme
This is the first time in decades that she's actually her own hero
For the first time in decades she's actually worthy of being part of the trinity
Superman is sci-fi
Batman is pulp
Wonder Woman is fantasy
And as someone already said, now her origin is much more stream-lined and easier to explain to new readers
People like you and all those yes-men here who wish for the series to fail, are only keeping Wonder Woman in the vacuum she's been in untill now, and then you whine why she doesn't get more recognition
THIS is why!
YOU are preventing her!
I'm with Linkara in Deadpool Vs Deadpool,that actually does sound bad ass and Original. Usually when it comes to these sort of battles of ones self in any media is you either fight a clone,doppelganger(of any means) or yourself from another universe..here he's literally fighting himself from body parts reformed! Kudos to who ever thought of that idea at Marvel.
ReplyDeleteThough O-o wow really DC? Their turning Wonder Woman into a Female version of Kratos? Think about it,sure even though Wonder Girl in the original continuity was the Daughter of Zeus(which means all of the Gods and Demigods are her Brothers and Sisters in Olympus) but not only making Diana the Daughter of Zeus but is always looking for a Battle??? No scratch it,that sounds like both Kratos and Vegeta combined...what is DC thinking with Wonder Woman?
Like others, I'd recommend looking at the IDW books "Ghostbusters" and "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles", especially if you're a child of/fan of those franchise. Both started from #1 the same month DC did their re-launch with TMNT doing the "origin story" right now and GB, mostly, following the events of the movies and -seemingly- the game that came out a couple years ago.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm sticking with WW a bit while longer, it seems after this issue where getting more back into the status quo. I also take it from your pulls this week you've dropped Catwoman? For me, this is a title I still highly enjoy.
And cannot agree more that "Batman" is the best of the Batman books. For me it seems less bogged down by previous continuity and no where near as dark and grim as the other Bat-Books and I also enjoy, like you, Gotham being used as another character.
I completely agree with everything you said about Wonder-Woman. I will keep reading this book though because despite this stupid and unnecessary change because it is still one of the best books out there and after that kind of stunt, I think the worst is behind us.
ReplyDelete"Ta-da! With Zeus as a daddy, she can be like half the Greek heroes"
ReplyDeleteGreat.. she'll end up blind, crippled and/or insane like they did in their sagas?
We got a one-line explanation for Cassie's new origin too. Brace yourself for it's epicness..
She stole her power bracelets from an archaelogical dig-site. That's it.
"Sorry, burtr this is probably THE stupidest reason to drop a book I have EVER heard of!
ReplyDeleteThe circumstances of Wonder Woman's birth were NEVER important
It's her reasons and motivation for leaving Paradise Island that truly matter!
YOU SAID THAT YOURSELF!
SERIOUSLY!
First good Wonder Woman run since William Marston (and MAYBE Denny O'Neil), and you drop it for such petty reasons
Son, I'm dissapoint"
I said her birth details weren't relevant for the first story she was in, since THAT story was about her motivations for leaving the island.
And did you even listen to me in the video? The origin was just the final thing that convinced me to drop the book. I don't like how she's written, I don't like how the Amazons are written, and frankly the plot itself hasn't exactly grabbed hold of me and wouldn't let go.
And my grammar still needs a lot of improvement, less lack of focus and a few spell checks.
ReplyDeleteSorry for my amateurish writing too Lewis, "I" should be improved a lot more at this point.
Meanwhile, Johnny Cash was really cool and i hope you enjoy it.
I would like to know if you are interested to trade your probably only copy of Red Hood and The Outlaws #01 for two treasures i find recently on my own obscure local comic book store :
Marvel Comics "X-Babies Reborn #01"
and
Marvel Comic "Pint-Sized X-Babies #01",
even if don't have Red Hood #01 anymore i would like to send this two rare comic books as a gift for you, i don't read it yet but i guess with your own ability you can easily made an hilarious Atop the Fourth Wall upcoming event with those two.
DC gives enough headaches to all of us this year so far and i will really appreciate a few more laughs at any moment in the next year schedule.
Once again thank for a fine side show, i can't wait to see what you have in store for the next main attraction despite my own previous criticisms.
and please all welcome Ms Tyler...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=292PZKiStsU
I've read all (up to now) 49 comments.
ReplyDeleteSomeone asked about Demon Knights and you said you read it, but how come it wasn't reviewed here with the rest?
I keep hearing from you, and just about everyone else about Wonder Woman being a very compassionate person, but from what I've read and seen, she never really came off as very compassionate to those she wasn't friends with. Even then she was mostly compassionate to women and less so towards men. If she's suppose to be a feminist icon, loving, caring, and wants to spread her message of peace shouldn't she be nicer to men, and not just men who are her friends?
These things are never really brought up and it has hurt her title and message a bit to me, but I may have missed issues where this was addressed.If their out there then I'll track them down, but her message rings a little hallow if those issues don't exist.
With Diana's origin I can't say what hasn't been said already, so I won't bother. I will only say I'm glad they didn't say she's the reincarnation of Pandora and all our problems are HER fault. Try thinking of it like that and maybe the new origin won't annoy you so much.
Sorry if i came off a whiny or just complaining. Have a hard time conveying tone over the computer.
Why exactly did you think that the JLU version of Wonder Woman wasn't the best adapted?
ReplyDeleteI have to say, though, considering your reactions on Twitter, I'm surprised you didn't get a lot angrier in this video.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm really teetering on the fence with Wonder Woman myself, which is sad since she's my favorite. I may give it one or two more moths to see if ANYTHING good comes from it outside ThemiscYra. Amazingly the one thing I disagree with you on is what you liked. The artwork is driving me crazy and just doesn't seem professional to me, with bad skin tones and really thick outlines.
ReplyDeleteBTW, does anyone else suspet that this relaunch may actually be DC's biggest attempt at creating their own version of the Ultimate universe after the All-Star and Earth One books failed to get off the ground? I wouldn't be surprised if, while keeping these books around, we'll see a launch of "DC Classic" or something in another year to bring back the continuity that supposedly stopped this August.
"As someone already pointed out, Wonder Woman had no place in the DC universe before this
ReplyDeleteShe lacked a theme
This is the first time in decades that she's actually her own hero
For the first time in decades she's actually worthy of being part of the trinity
Superman is sci-fi
Batman is pulp
Wonder Woman is fantasy"
Except she's been that since the mid 80s reboot. Try to keep up.
"People like you and all those yes-men here who wish for the series to fail, are only keeping Wonder Woman in the vacuum she's been in untill now, and then you whine why she doesn't get more recognition
THIS is why!"
Recognition? You do realise she's in the top 5 of recognisable characters, for non-readers?
Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Hulk, Wonder Woman. Show a picture of them to anyone, they'll know them.
"YOU are preventing her!"
No, crappy writers not getting the character prevent it. Especially when they fail their own internal logic, like the last issue.
Strife attacked the Island, tricked them into killing each other.. so she could make wise-cracks and join Diana's quest.
"And as someone already said, now her origin is much more stream-lined and easier to explain to new readers."
Except they were banking on readers to already know the minutae of Greek myth to be aware of Strife or Hermes (The writers sure glossed over their importance). And anyone who would know them would know Prometheus and being born from clay as the Gods' champion.
Wonder Woman is now the third series I'll violently disagree with you on
ReplyDelete(the other two being Action Comics and Red Hood)
In the past, you wondered why Wonder Woaman isn't as popular as Batman and Superman, despite having several great runs in the past
Let's just take a look at the Trinity, shall we?
Who are they?
Superman - an alien from a destroyed world, fighting for justice
Batman - a millionaire avenging the death of his parents
Wonder Woman - an animated clay-figure, gifted by gods, raised by amazons, set out into the world to spread the message of peace
yeah... the last one is kinda unnecessarily complicated, isn't it?
saying simply that she's "an amazon spreading the message of peace" does a much better job at introducing her, and just shows how pointless all the additional baggage is
Now let's say "an amazon/demi-goddess protecting the mortals from the whims of the gods"
Doesn't that have a great ring to it?
It certainly sounds like something the masses would like to read (same as with Superman and Batman)
Another question
who are their enemies?
Superman fights aliens and mad scientists (and their creations)
Batman fights mobsters and psychopaths
Wonder Woman fights mad scientists, gods, nazis, furies, mutants, and aliens
Yeah, I don't understand how half of these fit in with the whole Amazon background
Staying true to the villains, who's their arch-nemesis?
Superman: Lex Luthor
Batman: the Joker
Wonder Woman: Baroness? Duke of Deception? Cheetah? Ares? Doctor Psycho? Circe?
Who is their supporting cast?
With Superman, everyone probably knows of Supergirl, Lois Lane, and the rest of the Daily Planet (Jimmy and Perry that is) staff
Some will also know Superboy, Steel, and Krypto
In Batman's case, everyone can name Alfred, Catwoman, Batgirl, and Robin. Some will even be able to name more than one robin, as well as Batwoman and Ace
But what about Wonder Woman
Some people may be able to name Wonder Girl, and maybe even realize there is more than one, but most will just say "the Amazons" , out of whom they'll only be able to name Queen Hippolyta, if you are lucky
Most probably won't even know who Steve Trevor and Etta Candy are
All of these problems can be traced to the same source - a lack of unity
ReplyDeleteBoth Superman and Batman have a united theme
For Superman it's science and space
For Batman it's crime and pulp
But while Wonder Woman's origin has it's roots in mythology, her stories just tend to be all over the place
As a result, writers usually have no idea what to do with her.
Everyone knows how Batman and Superman work, no two people will be able to agree on how Wonder Woman works
Due to this Wonder Woman's been unable to maintain a stable supporting cast, or a truly iconic rogues gallery
These things prevent her from ever becoming relevant or popular.
Azzarello's run is a much-needed step in the right direction
He roots Wonder Woman firmly into Greek Mythology, and builds upon it. Through this he provides clear guide-lines for future writers (if they'll be smart enough to follow his lead)
Now, Wonder Woman has the whole Olympian pantheon and bestiary to draw her rogues and supporting cast from
Hermes already grew on me, and I seriously hope he'll stick around as a sidekick. Eris is so far an awesome villainess.
And we may as well expand beyond the mount Olymp, taking cues from Marvel's Thor, and include other pantheons as well
She did stand besides Bast, Beowulf, or Rama in the past. They may as well return and bring their pantheons along.
Mythology and fantasy is definitely the route Wonder Woman should take if DC ever wants her character to be relevant again.
Making her the daughter of Zeus helps to cement this direction, and provide a clear premise (see the earlier portion of my reply)
The implication of Diana having problems with the Amazons actually helps to explain why she was so eager to leave the island (as opposed to just going with a man she grew to like, which was still better than Perez's explanation)
As for the amazons trying to overthrow Hippolyta, I think it's the doing of Eris.
That's kinda her thing, you know, the goddess of conflict, strife, discord, etc.
ps.
To all those who wish this series to fail
Go to hell!
How dare you call yourself fans?!
You should be ashamed of yourselves!
well as I expressed in my reboot video (free spam yay! http://blip.tv/tischannel/comics3-5746619) I'm really liking Azzerello's Wonder Woman (apart from the return to the old costume, damn girl, put on some pants, it's cold outside)WW was never this "compassionate", or at least there were as many writer that wrote her as a warrior as there was writer that didn't, so it's really not that great of a change, the new origin is interesting (and at least it change it with a criteria, not by saying "reboot! now it's like this" but explaining it,on the other side I was disappointed too when she went away from the amazons, but I really doubt that they won't return in this story, and really as long as this third number goes there aren't a lot of "daddy issues"
ReplyDeleteah and by the way, you should really give it a try to the deadman miniserie on DCUP from the second issue it gets REALLY good with fun action and interesting story
The Green Lantern's new enemy could also be from the future.
ReplyDeleteAs for Wonder Woman, I get the sinking feeling that they're going to do a Hercules: The Legendary Journey thing with her.
What if, say, there's this HUGE crossover story in this reboot, and you're really enjoying it, one issue of one series end off on a killer cliffhanger, and the comic that resolves the cliffhanger was Wonder Woman? Would you read it then?
ReplyDeleteOne thing I would like to add,is I'm kinda curious on one thing. If you watched Batman The Brave and the Bold series,Lewis what was your thought of the final episode "Mitefall"?I honestly thought it was one of the best damn final episodes I've seen in quite awhile. Sure it took a nod at Freakazoids ending but it was very clever of it being a self aware/breaking the fourth wall episode
ReplyDeleteAnd yes I'm not spoiling anything just in case if others or you yourself havn't seen the episode.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"She lacked a theme"
No she didn't. She was always the more mythological and fantasy focused of the trinity, and I SAID what her theme was. Superman is the protector, Batman the avenger, Wonder Woman the champion.
"This is the first time in decades that she's actually her own hero"
She's been her own hero since the 80s at least.
"For the first time in decades she's actually worthy of being part of the trinity"
No, she's always been worthy of being part of the trinity.
"Sir,
people like you are THE reason why no-one likes Wonder Woman, and why she's been such a mess for the past 30 years or so"
*I* like Wonder Woman. Plenty of people like Wonder Woman. People like me? People like me actually KNOW about the character. If more people actually knew the fundamentals of the character, MORE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE HER.
"And as someone already said, now her origin is much more stream-lined and easier to explain to new readers"
What was so hard to explain about "sculpted from clay, given gifts from the Greek gods?" Now she's just another generic demi-god, which she's never been before, nor should ever HAVE been. Any more than she should have been a golem.
"People like you and all those yes-men here who wish for the series to fail,"
I don't wish for the series to fail. I'm still reading, despite the disappointment.
"are only keeping Wonder Woman in the vacuum she's been in untill now,"
Vacuum?
"and then you whine why she doesn't get more recognition"
I don't whine about fictional character. I may lament that she doesn't get more recognition.
"THIS is why!"
No. No, this is not why. The reason she doesn't get more recognition is because, for whatever reason, female heroes always have gotten less recognition than male heroes. That, and poor creative teams running her story into the dirt for far too long, and too few people want to get hooked and engaged by her. When you pick up your first Wondy comic and the story is stupid and hurtful, it's less likely you'll pick up another.
"YOU are preventing her!"
By not wanting ridiculous character changes that make it confusing for new readers who are interested in picking up older stories that don't use those changes? By actually knowing and loving what it is that makes Wonder Woman special and interesting (for the record, again, it's her unique origin and worldview)? By not wanting dumb, pointless changes that, if only because they haven't been around as long as earlier presentations, will eventually get retconned (and few will really mind when they're gone)? By wanting to promote good ideas and concepts in my favorite characters?
I'm sorry, I don't think so.
Jarkes wrote:
ReplyDelete"Why exactly did you think that the JLU version of Wonder Woman wasn't the best adapted?"
Wasn't really much of an adaptation. While it wasn't bad, Diana barely gets any development, and her origins and motivations are really glossed over.
A good critique judges a book on its own merits, not where it fits into the critic's preconceived notions. But you're not criticizing Wonder Woman based on its actual script and its internal qualities; you're just judging it based on how it aligns with previous Wonder Woman comics, and talking about continuity details as though they're of paramount importance. That Wonder Woman's origin is retconned, or even that the origin is similar to that of Cassie Sandsmark, are irrelevant. What matters is how Azarello pulls it off, the execution of the comic.
ReplyDelete"So who is in charge here? I vote me."
ReplyDeleteAs good as that line was, the only books I can continue to follow is New Guardians and Red Hood. Those are just...the only ones I like still. It is a little sad, really. I had such high hopes for the new 52. High apple pie in the sky hopes. But I am destined to like team books that will be forgotten before long, just like my two favorite comic books of all time, X-Statix and Postboot Legion. The Retroboot Legion is just a mockery. The fact that they are calling one of them "Legion Lost" is an insult to the memory of the best storyline in comic book history.
Sheesh. You know, the whole "Zeus is my father" thing has been done too many times in Greek mythology.
ReplyDeleteIf this is Wonder Woman's "new origin", I hate to see how they're going to portray Donna Troy (assuming she exists in the DC New 52 timelines) and Wonder Girl Cassandra Sandsmark.
I wish they had kept some of the old DCU continuity, especially Wonder Woman's better runs.
Nitz the Bloody wrote:
ReplyDelete"That Wonder Woman's origin is retconned, or even that the origin is similar to that of Cassie Sandsmark, are irrelevant."
No it's not, just as you can criticize something by comparing it with something else, contrasting this new Wonder Woman series against past stories is completely relevant.
"I know this is going to be brought up, but I'm curious what you think now that Marvel has no female solos?"
ReplyDeleteRead this.
http://insidepulse.com/2011/11/17/the-gold-standard-where-did-marvels-women-go/
@Adam
ReplyDelete"Recognition? You do realise she's in the top 5 of recognisable characters, for non-readers?
Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Hulk, Wonder Woman. Show a picture of them to anyone, they'll know them."
Maybe in the US
Not so much in the rest of the world (where I live, even Lobo and Hellboy outrank her)
Also, whole they may recognize Wonder Woman herself, can they name her supporting cast? Her rogues gallery?
I don't think so.
To most people she's just that chick from the Justice League.
"No, crappy writers not getting the character prevent it. Especially when they fail their own internal logic, like the last issue.
Strife attacked the Island, tricked them into killing each other.. so she could make wise-cracks and join Diana's quest."
She's a goddess, she can get away with worse.
Chances are they realized that the losses would be far greater if they continued fighting her, especially since she was no longer in the mood.
That's how gods work
(not saying Diana couldn't take her on, but there was nothing to gain besides vengeance that would come at a too high price)]
"Except they were banking on readers to already know the minutae of Greek myth to be aware of Strife or Hermes (The writers sure glossed over their importance). And anyone who would know them would know Prometheus and being born from clay as the Gods' champion."
There are so many movies, TV shows, and videogames drawing from Greek mythology in one way or the other, that it's safe to assume most people at least know the basics - just like they know who Batman and Superman are
@ Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
ReplyDelete"Superman is the protector, Batman the avenger, Wonder Woman the champion."
Out of which nothing really changed
But let's be honest, to the average person these words mean nothing
"She's been her own hero since the 80s at least."
No she wasn't.
Most people see her as the female counterpart of Superman at best, if not as the token chick on the Justice League, or just as another head in Batman's massive harem
"No, she's always been worthy of being part of the trinity."
Nope, she never came even close to be as recognizable as the other two
The only thing that qualified her was that she managed to have a steady run throughout the golden and silver age along with the other two
Most people can't even name her villains besides Cheetah, and don't get me started on the supporting cast
"If more people actually knew the fundamentals of the character, MORE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE HER."
At least something we can agree on
"What was so hard to explain about -sculpted from clay, given gifts from the Greek gods?-"
See how long it took to say that?
And you didn't even get to her motivations
To me, that part of her origin was just an attempt to fix a plot-hole of a child being born on an island with no men.
"Daughter of Zeus" works just as well, and takes just three words to say
"Now she's just another generic demi-god, which she's never been before, nor should ever HAVE been. Any more than she should have been a golem."
Just as Batman is just another generic orphan out for vengeance?
Or Superman a generic foundling of noble origins?
I think now she fits in much better
The Trinity - three mythological archetypes!
"No. No, this is not why. The reason she doesn't get more recognition is because, for whatever reason, female heroes always have gotten less recognition than male heroes. That, and poor creative teams running her story into the dirt for far too long, and too few people want to get hooked and engaged by her."
And looking at the sales, this series is fixing it
"By not wanting ridiculous character changes that make it confusing for new readers who are interested in picking up older stories that don't use those changes?"
Only that the changes are handled in such a manner that they won't be confusing - she didn't know yet
"By not wanting dumb, pointless changes that, if only because they haven't been around as long as earlier presentations, will eventually get retconned"
Which is why I hope it WON'T get retconned
We finally found a formula that works, so STICK TO IT!
Anonymous wrote:
ReplyDelete""She's been her own hero since the 80s at least."
No she wasn't."
Yes, she was.
"Most people see her as the female counterpart of Superman at best, if not as the token chick on the Justice League, or just as another head in Batman's massive harem"
And changing her origin doesn't change that. Informing people about what she IS changes that.
""What was so hard to explain about -sculpted from clay, given gifts from the Greek gods?-"
See how long it took to say that?"
. . . not long at all?
"Just as Batman is just another generic orphan out for vengeance?
Or Superman a generic foundling of noble origins?"
. . . which they aren't at all? Bruce Wayne isn't a generic orphan. Generic orphans are poor and mistreated by the system or completely lost in it. Nor is he after vengeance. He doesn't want blood for the murder of his parents, not even from the man who pulled the trigger.
And Superman isn't a generic foundling, of noble origins or otherwise. Generic foundlings can't juggle planets. Generic foundlings have angst about their origins that shape their worldview as adults. Clark Kent doesn't. Maybe a little as a teenager when he learned about his powers, but either he did or not, he grew out of it real damn quick.
Some people try to equate his origins to Moses, but Moses became an advocate for his disenfranchised, enslaved people. Superman doesn't want to lead humanity out of enslavement. He's there to help. Wonder Woman is the one who wants to lead humanity out of enslavement, metaphorically speaking. She wants to change the way humanity thinks about things, reframe us as a more tolerant, accepting, and inclusive society, and not just towards women, which is why the suspicion of the Amazons towards her in this new series is off-putting. Gail Simone had a small group of Amazons dislike how Diana came about and see that as religiously schismatic. Now Azzarello has a large portion of the Amazons feeling that being originally made of clay was enough to ostracize her somewhat in her youth. This isn't the extended family of sisters and aunts that distinguished Diana in her previous (better) origin. Now she's just as much an outsider as Batman or Superman would be considered on the surface. And don't you dare say that's a good thing.
The best WW story I've read was one of the three published in WW 600, where Wonder Woman listened to Power Girl problems with PG's cat.
ReplyDeleteA hero who has wisdom, and patience, and solves problems in her own, unique style - through enforcing truth and understanding.
I just felt that these several pages worth of story were the epitome of everything what was best about WW. Reflections of Wonder Woman's virtues so to say.
But now we have Kratos with tits.
Yay?
We are getting some more reasoning behind the origins
ReplyDeletehttp://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=14217632&postcount=1
@Delichon
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this is that a story like this WILL NOT bring in readers
It is fun for long time fans, but will most likely turn-off any new reader
A female Kratos IS something most people are interested in reading, especially since this series is much better than the actual God of War comics
@Aaron "The Mad Whitaker"
ReplyDeleteBut it IS a good thing!
You know damn well what I meant with the analogy with Batman and Superman
Their basic background stories may be generic, but they are more than that
So is Wonder Woman
"And changing her origin doesn't change that. Informing people about what she IS changes that."
True, and for that the writers must reach a consensus like they did with Batman and Superman
Buy dropping the "clay" origins, we finally got the whole "golem" misconception out of the way
By tying her even closer to mythology, we now have a clear source for her enemies and allies
Now if we could finally find something that would actually stick
And since this is the first arc of a new re-launch, this is the perfect place to start doing that
raniaeliAbout Hannu whipping out his ring, I believe that, since they're apparently fighting beings MADE of willpower, he must have come to the conclusion that brute force just wouldn't cut it and decided to use the ring.
ReplyDeleteRe: Why Wonder Woman is less popular.
ReplyDeleteI think most of you are all missing the wood for the trees.
Wonder Woman is less popular, and her theme is less known cause DC writers don't know what to do with her most of the time, and just as important DC doesn't ever give her much of a push outside of comics.
Look at the other members of the Big 3: Batman has six, soon to be seven movies and a campy TV show, plus Batman the Animated Series.
Superman has six films of his mythos, and Smallville, a recent TV show, Louis and Clark, a slightly older TV show, and Superman the Animated Series.
Wonder Woman has zero movies, one animated movie, and one 30 year old campy TV show.
Daredevil has more recent non-comic book push than Wonder Woman does.
You don't need to ceaselessly rehash her origins, or change her personality or whatever. In order to make Wonder Woman big you need to do two things.
1: Set up a long running series of cool adventurers for her. It doesn't really matter what these adventures are, as long as they're cool and interesting.
2: Give her a push outside comics in terms of movies, or a TV series or an animated series or whatever. Hell, just advertising her and selling her comic on news stands would work.
That's all. Rehashing her as gender swapped Hercules is not what you need to do here, and frankly is only likely to confuse new readers who vaguely know about Wonder Woman and have previously heard the clay thing.
Sheesh.
To the Undead Unicorns out there (huh, there's a thought, lol), allow me to touch on some of the rebuttles out there.
ReplyDeleteAny argument that would suggest that the new origin is an improvement on the grounds of giving Wonder Woman that it "intigrates her into the mythos" is, well, something I won't say here, but it isn't a good thing and I find it to be a silly assessment. Let me ask this. WHY does Wonder Woman need this retcon to her origin? Why WASN'T she intigrated into the mythos before? The Greek Gods MADE HER and GAVE HER THEIR BLESSINGS. Not only did she have her roots and origins firmly intigrated into Greek lore, it was unique and fresh. Did anyone watch Linkara's Amazons Attack prologue? The only thing this does is put her into the family tree, and yet somehow it manages to alienate her from her real family, the Amazons. Oh, wait, we were already on the road to that with this dumbass retcon and Brian Azzarello's crap-tastic handling of the character, turning her into a careless, battle-hungry drone. Hell, I'd feel better with Jodi Piccolt as the writer! JODI PICCOLT! The woman who had Wonder Woman go from former ambassador to "how do you pump gas?"
Another thing regarding this retcon. Some people say this gives her storytelling opportunities, but it is as Linkara said. All it gives her is the "she has parent issues" dynamic which is as cliche as her being Zeus' and Random Woman X's paternal child. How many times have we seen THAT in Greek mythology? It makes for a boring dynamic and removes her personal connection from several of the pantheon. Congratulations, DC. You've sacrificed that unique connection with many for somehing as boring and dull as this.
Now, I will say this. As much as I enjoyed the old origin's idea, I wasn't quite as married to it as Linkara was. Maybe it's because I fancy myself more of a Marvel guy, but I thought it was an awesome story for one of the most iconic characters of all time. Ooooh, but this makes her unique amongst the Trinity! NO IT DOESN'T! If anything, this makes her the dull one of the bunch. Superman? Cast off a dying planet to be raised by farmers. Unique. Batman? Pushed himself above and beyond in the wake of tragedy to become the great hero he is today. Unique. Wonder Woman? A Hercules redux. Dumb, cliche, and boring.
Actually, I'm really disappointed with what's transpired with this New 52 as a whole. If the whole idea was to bring them to their most recognizable periods... then how come we can barely recognize Superman, Wonder Woman, the Birds of Prey, or others?
I hope I'm wrong about Wonder Woman. Since the first trade is 6 issues, I'm willing to see where this goes. I'm not thrilled with this, though. Heck, this, to me, is almost as bad as what Marvel did to the Ultimate X-Men in the changes they made to their history with basically turning them into lab rats... and I used to LOVE Ultimate Marvel... then it spiraled out of control into this burning mess...
I'm with Linkara on this one. Change is good only if they truly have something better in mind. Right now, the change in origin is only an idea. If this were in the hands of a better writer, at least we'd have good storytelling around a bad idea. This, though? And what we've gotten so far from this writer? I'm not filled with confidence.
I AM going to read the next issue though to see what to expect from this. I'm not confident, but I'm hoping to see something. Still, I'm looking for excuses to drop books right now, so I may not even give this title six.
I just realised I posted my comment on the wrong video -_-.
ReplyDeleteSorry, my comment about Sinestro was meant to be posted on the video where you reviewed Green Lantern #3
@FBH991
ReplyDeleteBut why doesn't Wonder Woman get a push?
My opinion is that it's because no-one knows what to do with her
When they were planning a Wonder Woman show in the early 90s, they were basically going for a Sailor Moon styled series, with Ico, Sterfire, and Dolphin as her supporting cast, and a villain made for the show.
Meanwhile Superman and Batman got shows closely based on their comic history.
As said before, Wonder Woman is kinda all over the place
I wonder if Marston's version of the origin would have been more like this if he hadn't been writing for children, or if the idea of a child been born from sex outside marriage had been a more acceptable subject, or if a woman not being overshadowed by a strong father had been more plausible to large audiences in the forties.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking of this Marston quote:
"Giving to others, being controlled by them, submitting to other people cannot possibly be enjoyable without a strong erotic element"
So, why wouldn't he have wanted there to be more of an erotic element, and an element of the "giving up" of "absolute control," in Wonder Woman's origin?
" No it's not, just as you can criticize something by comparing it with something else, contrasting this new Wonder Woman series against past stories is completely relevant. "
ReplyDeleteOnly if the contrast gives a good argument as to why the concepts in the older stories were superior to the ones in the new continuity. Linkara argues that he's against "bad change", but he doesn't really argue why this inherently hurts Wonder Woman (other than claiming that this is a rip-off of Wonder Girl's origin), or makes Wonder Woman #3 a bad comic.
I'm glad to hear the Deadpool comics are getting good again! I liked the Deadpool Skrulls I got that in the trade!
ReplyDeleteI'd like to read that Green Lantern comic! which reminds you might've been asked already but I'd like to hear if you watched the CGI animated piolet episodes of the Green Lantern cartoon last week!?
I don't care for the idea of Zues being Wondie's father father in that way it'd been better if it was just his lightening that brought the clay baby to life insted! The story that Wonder Woman's birth is based on isn't the Gollum of Jewish belief it's another Greek story! But it was actually about Aphroditi bringing a clay woman to life for a guy who wanted a wife!
Well glad to see you're back to doing these again!
"Only if the contrast gives a good argument as to why the concepts in the older stories were superior to the ones in the new continuity. Linkara argues that he's against "bad change", but he doesn't really argue why this inherently hurts Wonder Woman (other than claiming that this is a rip-off of Wonder Girl's origin), or makes Wonder Woman #3 a bad comic."
ReplyDeleteThe change has actually weakened her, since this version was not blessed by various gods after her unique and heralded as the avatar of truth. She's just some random Amazon, with a deadbeat dad who liked to screw around. What stories can they get out of it?
She's going to punch random swans and piles of gold, hoping they're her "daddy who didn't love me"?
She'll swap therapist phone numbers with Theseus?
If they wanted to stream-line it to be a one-liner origin, like Bats and Superman, they could have come up with something better. As it is, she's now far below their heroic stories.
Superman: Orphaned Alien, who loves us and wants to help make his adopted world safe.
Batman: Orphaned by crime, he has devoted his life and fortune to help make his city safe.
Wonder Woman: Zeus nailed her mother. And she likes hitting people?
Yeah, one of these is not like the other.
It's actually not all that unusual to hide a pregnancy. There are stories in the news fairly often about a woman hiding a pregnancy, and no one knew until the baby is born. Some women just don't show all that much.
ReplyDelete(NOTE: ignore if this posted the first time. I was told it didn't)
ReplyDeleteGood morning, Linkara.
I didn't know when you are/aren't on Twitter, so I figured I'd just ask this here...
I saw your co-review of Twilight yesterday with Spoony, and was just curious as to your mother's name. It sounded something like "Ah-Vanelle", but Spoony seemed to hear it as something like "Ahp-anelle".
I only ask this because I live in New Jersey, and there's a town named Avenel about a half hour from me...and I was wondering if it was the same name.
Speaking of which, it IS a pretty name. And if it IS Avenel, I like your pronunciation better (I've always heard the A pronounced like in "apple").
My thanks in advance.
@Graveheart
ReplyDeleteI'd call you something, but there's no word in human language crude enough to describe you
I won't bother rebuffing your BS, because it's all been already done before you even posted
I'm just going to the root of this all
In an early interview, Azzarello said that he had dinner with Dan Dido before the re-boot, and Dido told him about his intentions to give a brand new direction to Wonder Woman.
Azzarello was apparently really appalled by what he heard, and so he suggested his current version instead, which they ended-up agreeing upon.
That's also how he ended-up writing Wonder Woman, despite the fact that (as he himself admitted) he was never a fan of the character.
Now think!
What must it have been to freak-out a non-fan so much?
Her origin would have changed one way or the other, but this may have been the lesser of the two evils.
here's the interview http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34485
And you know what?
It worked!
People who previously wouldn't touch WW with a ten-foot pole are now becoming readers
Wonder Woman is now the 15th best selling comics in the US, while in the past she struggled to sustain her own title!
Time will tell which side is right, but so far it seems to work much better than the original did
@Adam
ReplyDelete"The change has actually weakened her, since this version was not blessed by various gods after her unique and heralded as the avatar of truth. She's just some random Amazon, with a deadbeat dad who liked to screw around."
And how does being a demi-god make her weak?
Theoretically she's now potentially one of the most powerful people on earth
"What stories can they get out of it?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs5rLbu3GDY
But seriously, what stories can you NOT get out of an Olympian?
Greek mythology itself gives TONS of story-telling opportunities
Not to mention the possibilities of visiting Egyptian, Nordic, Aztec, or Sumerian mythologies
And then there's the possibilities of re-vamping some of her classic rogues to be more in line with the theme.
Cheetah gaining powers from African shamanism? Giganta being a descendant of Frost Giants?
Where can I sign?
" As it is, she's now far below their heroic stories.
Superman: Orphaned Alien, who loves us and wants to help make his adopted world safe.
Batman: Orphaned by crime, he has devoted his life and fortune to help make his city safe.
Wonder Woman: Zeus nailed her mother. And she likes hitting people?"
Batman: rich brat being a whiny emo and beating people-up to make himself feel better
See how easy it is to discredit a character?
What about
Wonder Woman: demi-god protecting mortals from the whims of the vain gods
see?
Yeah--I think we're far less likely to see Diana angst about her daddy issues then what we've seen before about, "am I a human being?"
ReplyDeleteI just want the temptation of writers to have Diana go on and on about whether she's alive or a clay puppet of the gods to go away. Of course if you interfere with the magic of her creation she can revert to clay. Perez did it, Byrne did it, Alex Ross and Co. did it. I just hate that story trope to death!
You know, I'd have to agree with you, Linkara, but I can sort of see where those who disagree with you are coming from. Then again, I am admittedly not much of an actual comic book reader. Most of my experience with comic book characters comes from the various adaptations. So yeah.
ReplyDeleteAnd Lewis New 52's willingness to keep reading goes down and down narrowing to the most pleasant denominators.
ReplyDeleteFirst month : All 52 comic book readed and reviewed because was as the task demanded;
Second month : Only 24 of all 52 survive scrutiny despite the tight schedule;
Third month so far : 10 had receive concerned reviews but at least one is already dead on the water, Wonder Woman #3 consolidates as the kind of crap that makes JLI #1, #2 and #3 looks good so far because, don't get me wrong on this, JLI is bad but still is laughable and laughable is what made that the sort of MST3K funny bunny.
Try to do a screening for Wonder Woman #3 in MST3K style and people are going to burn the slide show machine into ashes and riot out of the room.
Let's face it, keeping in mind all previous disagreement i am proud to accept Linkara as the sort of Dr. Clayton Forrester my own obscure non-mainstream show really need in an backwards way.
An intelligent and wise reader who still is a fan at the end of everything he really enjoy. High schools hardly made this kind of boy turns himself into a man this days and that's sad because that stooge's humor is really on demand right now.
And finally accomplished my mission after downloaded all New 52's series (mostly editions with no ads on it) i can start my experience to replicate Lewis Herculean 52 Labors Monthly in my own 156 Comic Books before Christmas and Counting Up, my prayers goes to "Shameless Frank", be praise upon his Miller :
Now I lay me down to read,
I pray the Miller my soul to keep,
if I sleep before I finish,
I pray for Miller my soul to reap,
Guide and guard me through the fight
and strike my enemies with the broading light
In the Blackest Day
In the Brightest Night
No Evil can stand all Might
Before the Power
of Miller's Insight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7JP3q0ub7s
P.S.: Why Green Lantern's movie could not be good as the cartoon ? Any clue ?
*Lewis Lovhaug's 52 Labors Monthly was brought to you by That Guy With Glasses and i thank you both for that.
@Anoymous
ReplyDeleteRe: But why doesn't Wonder Woman get a push?
I think you're basically right. People aren't sure what to do with her. There's a few other factors too, but they tie into that.
I could do a whole post (with unpopular ideas like "completely redesign the costume, including the color scheme") about how I'd do a Wondy series, but let's just get down to the technical thing here.
What is needed to get Wonder Woman into a state where she can be pushed is a someone at DC at at least Editorial level who is interested in doing Wonder Woman stories or a writer who lasts a really long time, like 5-10 years on the book. Or both.
Basically, a long running series where a consistent tone, mythos and bad guys are established and maintained. Wonder Woman needs to be treated as if it's a book basically starting from scratch, central conflicts and enemies established and so on.
Then from there, once you've established that, you push it out as a film.
I think, though, that this is a good change. In real life and in fiction, sometimes going forward involves having new realizations about the past. "Chapter Five: The plot thickens as, our heroine having always believed one story about her past, she discovers that the truth is a different story." It's still true that she and others believed she was made of clay. This story hasn't been retconned away; it's just been revealed to be "only" a story--but an important story, a legend. Ironically, this legend may be more consequential in Azzarello's version--where, even though it wasn't true, it protected Diana but also may have alienated her--then it ever was in Marston's run, where, as far as I have been able to find out, it was only ever referenced in a grand total of three panels. Just think about that--the clay statue origin may already have been discussed more in Azzarello's run than it was in the whole length of Marston's run!
ReplyDeleteIf there was anything wrong with Diana's origin story--and particularly with the part about her "birth," as opposed to growing up on Paradise Island, rescuing a man who is stranded there, leaving to fight evil, etc.--it is, as Azzarello suggested in an interview recently, that it didn't have enough interesting consequences, especially in terms of her motivations. Batman's parents die, so he vows to avenge himself on criminals; Superman's birth planet was destroyed, so he vows to protect his adoptive planet; Wonder Woman was made of clay, so...what? It may be a very nice exception from the patriarchal rule that everyone has to have a father, but what drama does it lead to? What does it motivate Diana to do? The earliest part of her origin doesn't have to make her motivations dark or insecure, and Azzarello has suggested that it will not. But it might be nice if it added something to her motivations.
Dear SLVN a.k.a. Faceless Person of The Week Who Is Completely Ignorant About Some Comic Book Mythos or So...
ReplyDeletequoting and restraining my self severely on that : "Wonder Woman was made of clay, so...what?" So she is a mythological creation, she is meant to become the Spirit of Truth, she is pure and come into existence by the blessing of the greek goddesses from their pantheon - the only male god present was Hermes, please check George Perez portrait of the mythos, is flawless - she come later in the Amazon mythos because she was the last to come out from the wheel of the souls and that's because she was the female spirit of Hyppolita's unborn child.
Keep in mind the fact all Amazons have the souls of women who die as victims of violence and reborn as this untamed beacons of hope, freedom and strenght of the heart, they are not just warriors as DC Comics tries to made us digest the mythos because is supposed this what made Xena The Warrior Princess popular.
GET OVER IT DC, XENA WAS COOL BUT WONDER WOMAN IS NOT XENA AND DESPITE ANY MERITS THOSE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE MYTHOS, Perez made all the hard work already and there is only a little bit of space for improvements on that, get the better from Marston and mashed up with this but that all you can get and that all we want.
Batman lost his parents, Superman lost his planet and now Wonder Woman lost the birth right to keep her own mythos because God forbid comparisons with real life religions and anything coming from fiction is now considered as A DOCUMENTARY ???
WTF!!! Are you really that afraid about a fictional technological far far away advanced hidden civilization that send her champion to fight in defense of freedom, justice and whatever means the american way this days ?
That's the real Wonder Woman motivation to fight against evil, she is not a happy trigger swashbuckler eager to fight for the love of fighting and she is not powerful because she is the daughter of Zeus, there is a lot more of background baggage to deal with there but paradoxical as it seen you DC Comics guys and people who supports them are a bunch of pussies because you can't stand for a woman who actually don't need the balls to play catch with Superman or Batman at the same level.
You made her the daughter of Zeus because you think she need his balls to be what she is and in the end turn her into what she is not : an oversimplified MACHO WOMAN WITH A SWORD, in your stupid minds women can't fight against men with their bare hands so she always need a crutch to compensate the lack of props on her crotch.
Azzarello sucks in history and must go back to school to learn about what he is dealing with, DC suck because they can't learn anything from their own previous history, they fail again and thanks to that they are trapped in an infinite loop of repetition.
Check her background history before following the writer blindly, this is not Wonder Woman and i still waiting to see her coming back.
Meanwhile Please Welcome a group of guys that can express my feeling in song better than me through writing :
Information Society - How Long...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py7jrbMLeNc&feature=related
I love ATFW! and I've seen on your shows that people can send you comics to review. I want to send you a few comics that you hopefly find worthy of a review but I can't find the information on where to send the comics
ReplyDeleteAnd as resident friendly stalker i can prevent my self from asking again :
ReplyDeleteDear Lewis,
there isn't any thoughts to share about JLI #03 and Blackhawks #02 ?
I like when you have something good to say about some comics i personally think as bad, politely disagreement can be a lot of fun when people respect each other and their respective limits of conduct and hope i can nag you about that in a non-annoying manner, i understand if the schedule don't allowed a decent reading yet but i expect to listen something about in the near future.
I can always respect the efforts of a dedicated fan in defense of any comic books are choose to be loved despite non-catastrophic structural failures.
I find a band full with "bright colors" to cheer you up, that's the message i have for you, please respond when you were able.
INFORMATION SOCIETY - WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPuXvpkOLmM&feature=related
P.S.: Thanks for inspiring me to re-discover this songs. You and your show are a Godsend.
Now that I think about it, I am surprised you did not say anything about Superman killing Parademons in JL3.
ReplyDeleteIt is possible that these DCnU Parademons will be revealed to be nothing but robots, but as you know from having read Villains United (First Appearance of Simone's Secret Six), this was not the case before.
@Anonymous @Me
ReplyDeleteCall me somthing crude because I have a differing opinion than your own? You sir/ma'am are an inspiration for our children. *eyeroll*
Yeah, why don't YOU re-read that interview? You'll see that if Azzarello is to be believed, then DiDido only talked about a new direction, not necessarily just a new origin. This could have been anything from Wonder Woman being a prostitute (definately would have been worse) to Wonder Woman getting cybernetic parts to her turning in her V-card and becoming a mother down the line (which I believe was speculated at some point). You know what else he said in that interview? That her origin would be in tact. He also white-washed it by adding the disclaimer of "in issue one." Yeah, I'm not going to take a lot of what he says at face value.
You wanna know why else Wonder Woman's been a hot seller? Because she's one of the DC Trinity who just got a new relaunch with the other 52. Issue #1 was decent enough. I wasn't as critical of her attitude through the first two as Linkara was, at least when it came to her talking to the pregnant woman, because I still did view Wonder Woman as the compassionate Spirit of Truth, even if she was fighting and fighting and fighting some more.
"If there's two thing she loves it's fightin' and FIGHTIN' 'ROUND THE WOOOOORRRRRRRRLLLLLLLDDDDD!!!"
Yeah, there wasn't much patience with me on that regard. I want my superheroes to be read to do more and be more than just someone who'll beat the snot out of bad guys. I want character and her character's just been up the wall for me.
This is where Azzarello's non-fandom of Wonder Woman REALLY hurts. This hasn't been Wonder Woman in the grand scheme of things. Wonder Woman hasn't been about being angry and waiting for the next fight. She's not Ryu from Street Fighter. She's a kind and compassionate hero who's in it to be a shield for the world, not a sword. Since Azzarello isn't a fan, he probably isn't as familiar with the character as others would be. Wanna know something else that happened with a situation like that? Cassandra Cain turned evil, became a talker, and got taken down by "no-style" martial arts. Yeah, it wasn't a good day then either.
The only characterization that I think has been worse has been Superman in Action Comics.
Here is some B:BATB Wonder Woman to make you feel better Lewis
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKXBxK82LE
See that makes you feel better.
Sir, try out Red Hood and the Outlaws #3. It is well worth it. Great ending :)
ReplyDelete"I love ATFW! and I've seen on your shows that people can send you comics to review. I want to send you a few comics that you hopefly find worthy of a review but I can't find the information on where to send the comics"
ReplyDeleteThat's because I'd prefer you e-mail me what you'd like to send before I give out the PO Box - I may already have it or not be interested. ^^;
As for everyone else discussing things, please remember to keep it civil. If you disagree, you disagree, but no insults or namecalling will be tolerated.
Just in relation to your complaint of "Wonder Woman's entire life being a lie"
ReplyDeleteI think it would be a miracle--a wonder, even---for a feminist icon to come from Lies, Betrayal and Adultery.
In a sense, feminism itself is a product of Patriarchy and Misogyny and Oppression, because it arose to oppose those forces. But in another sense, feminism is a product of the will to be recognized as free and equal. And in a sense, Wonder Woman may be the product of Lies, Betrayal and Adultery; but in another sense, she is teh product, according to Hippolyta, of "absolute power...given up."
And "absolute power...given up" by sovereigns out of passion for each other sounds a lot like loving submission, which is what Wonder Woman was all about
Wonder Woman is who she is, despite the fact her mother may have been in a relationship with a married man. Frankly, I find the very idea of her being less because her mother made a "mistake" to be highly offensive.
Don't lose hope, Linkara and readers! All will be well. Wonder Woman may suddenly develop grievous bodily injury due her heritage, which will reqire of her body being molded from clay and animated by gods. And Bruce Timm.
ReplyDeleteThere are a few right ways DC&WB partnership presented Wonder Woman and made "EVERYBODY" happy already Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteCan't Azzarello learn nothing from it or the intention is damage this character permanently just like Marvel like keep going to do with Spiderman ?
Brave and the Bold was nice but cowardly dropped out, this one is more like the character all fan base loves and care about :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPlSdns_n1E&feature=related
And talking about correct characterization and WB : What comes to your mind about Young Justice cartoon and comic book Lewis ? It's not really an accurate portrait and has nothing to do with the New 52's series but at least is enjoyable, please post a word or two when you had time.
And as i have nothing else to say, let's music say it better :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST86JM1RPl0&feature=related
I wonder if they're planning an arc for Wonder Woman where she turns evil and tries to overthrow the Olympian gods in some angst filled attempt to lash out at Zeus. Maybe they'll even include a little incest action with Ares.
ReplyDeleteWhen the inevitable fan backlash hits, they'll retcon it so that Hades was pulling the strings behind the scenes and secretly influencing Wonder Woman.
So glad they got rid of the clay origin.
ReplyDeleteThe only time I enjoeyed Wonder Woman was... well never and I've read stories from the Perez run, the Rucka run, the Himenez run, the Simone run and her various appearances in JLA.
The best I've seen her (personal opinion of course) was in the JLA issues by Kelly and Manhke.
She was a strong character there and It didn't bother with the whole "ambassador of peace stuff" which always seemed a bit hypocritical for a character who is also a warrior princes. And also travels to space to fight monsters. And also communicates with animals. And fights Doomsday with Hercules. Or Nazis. Or Businessmen. Or giant egg scientists.Or...
All these different areas of interest just pile up and make her less defined and all over the place even for a comic book character.
Just give her her own place in the DCnU and keep her there.
Mythology and the realm of gods.
Not Nazis, not aliens no nothing.
Keep it simple.
Daughter of Zeus and an amazon queen, protector against the mythological/magical threats.
After the reboot I feel she is a much more defined and believable character in the context of her creation, mission etc. (again personal opinion)
Bottom line, I don't know if this is the best WW I've read yet, but it's easily the one I can explain to my friends without the need to spend 2 hours talking.
As for JL.
The blockbuster pantheon comic I've been waiting since Morisson.
I never cared for Cyborg but him having ties with Darkseid just made him a major player in my book (and I really loved MM.)
I love the action and the fact that the JL doesn't hold back against an "end of the world" menace just feels right.
Plus the best part of the whole DCnU.
Aquaman.
Just 2 pages and he steals the show for me.
Like a king should.
Simple and effective.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteNovember 21, 2011 7:09 AM
I completely agree with you, alto I think Nazis should still be ok as villains, especially once you take their occult divisions in account
@Sake Mangusto
ReplyDeleteYou can thank Batman fans for Brave and the Bold getting the plug
@Graveheart
ReplyDelete"Call me somthing crude because I have a differing opinion than your own? You sir/ma'am are an inspiration for our children. *eyeroll*"
You were the one who started implying to call names people who disagreed with you
I'll quote you:
"Any argument that would suggest that the new origin is an improvement on the grounds of giving Wonder Woman that it intigrates her into the mythos is, well, something I won't say here, but it isn't a good thing"
so yeah...
"You know what else he said in that interview? That her origin would be in tact. He also white-washed it by adding the disclaimer of -in issue one.- Yeah, I'm not going to take a lot of what he says at face value."
I assume that he meant that he did not change her ORIGINAL origin story (the one Linkara reviewed)
The entire "clay" background was only added when Marston re-visited her origin, and he dedicated less than a page, never bringing it up again.
The part that defined Wonder Woman was why she left Paradise Island, and I believe that aspect of her origin is still unchanged
"Wonder Woman hasn't been about being angry and waiting for the next fight. She's not Ryu from Street Fighter. She's a kind and compassionate hero who's in it to be a shield for the world, not a sword."
She's willing to give her life for a complete stranger.
She immediately jumped to help a person who just appeared in the middle of the night in her apartment.
If she was just looking for a fight, she'd be probably taking a stroll in Iraq, Northern Ireland, or the Gaza stripe
"Wanna know something else that happened with a situation like that? Cassandra Cain turned evil"
That one was because Dido wanted a white Batgirl
"The only characterization that I think has been worse has been Superman in Action Comics."
Despite the fact that it's spot-on for Superman in his early days
I seriously don't get Linkara's dislike for this one, someone like Lewis should know better.
Just like Grant Morrisson chanelled the Silver Age with All-Star Superman, he's channeling the Golden Age with Action Comics.
It's only appropriate!
And for the first time ever, we have the chance to see the evolution of the character from his original incarnation to the most recent.
If there's someone who can pull this, it's Morrison
So Sake Mangusto the wonder woman you want to see is ass kicking super heroine but a complete moron
ReplyDeleteYeah I’m sorry but while the fight scenes for that movie is great Diana personality is borderline stupid. I mean her training Supergirl is a great idea and makes a lot of sense but the fact that instead of asking her or discussing it with Clark (her technical legal guardian she decides to say "screw that and tries to kidnap her."
Yeah Diana's a badass and her training Kara would be clever but she decides to do it in the most stupid way possible.
To be fair though she comes across less of an ass than Batman though.
P.s. I enjoy the current wonder woman comics but to each his own
@Sake Mangusto
ReplyDeleteYour post is too long for me to rebuff point-by-point
Well, I think I could, but I don't have the time, nor the patience at the moment
I never accepted the George Perez origin. The only good thing to come out of his run was Circe.
If you want the true essence of Wonder Woman, you must go back to Marston
And while Azzarello's Diana may be more aggressive, he still manages to get the most important parts right
Marston never gave much attention to the clay part of her origin, and only introduced it as a brief side-note while re-visiting her origin
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u313/JKCarrier/Forum%20Stuff/wworigin.jpg
I think Perez may have in fact done some damage by dwelling on this aspect so much, since it introduced the misconception of Wonder Woman being a mere doll
Just my view
Thanks again Lewis for keep this place a civilized beacon for free speech on the world wide web.
ReplyDeleteCan, but this doesn't mean you really need even if you are able, you explain why some people choose to remain anonymous even when they have a valid opinion of their own about
any issues ?
Like said before everybody has the right to have their own opinions doesn't matter how much preposterous they might be (like considering Frank Miller, Howard Chaykin, Garth Ennis, Lewis Lovhaug, Edgar Rice Burroughs, William Moulton Marston and Frank Cho anythging less than genius who goes along together in the same pantheon ) and nobody needs to be persecuted for that because this place is civilized and keep it in order now by a well regulated militia of remote controlled cybernetic rodents with laser beams attached to their headless bodies.
In the end is anonymity really necessary when honest critical thinking is exposed the way it should be ? I guess everybody knows the correct answer for that.
And as the show must go on a old one in homage to the Spirit of the Truth wherever she is right now.
I wish there was the perfect song for this but i guess the best way to find the truth is add your own by yourself.
Like a guessing game, try out that.
@tlegg
ReplyDeletein my defense i didn't watch the movie, i read the comic book instead but i guess you know what i mean. Despite any criticism that cartoon is probably a better portrait of the kind of Wonder Woman i like even if she isn't a flawless Super Goddess unable to do anything wrong in any sense, characters can't be flawless.
@Annoyingnymous
Wonder Woman never was a warrior princess, Xena was a warrior princess and the rabid right wing homophobic christian twisted values media didn't cease until they finally take her away from the air waves.
They are two completely different characters with completely different motivations and DC should stop trying this moronic mash up.
They should mash up the Best of Perez with the Best of Marston instead, Azzarello missed the point about Who is Wonder Woman ? Why she came to the "World of Men" ? And What and How much is she willing to do what is needed to fight against evil ? Or maybe he is just trying to made her a kind of Buffy and give to her the monster of the month to kill at each issue.
Azzarello is not making Wonder Woman growing as a character in her own story, he is diminishing her.
"...introduced the misconception of Wonder Woman being a mere doll..."
A mere doll you say, well that's a "doll" who doesn't need kryptonite to kick Superman's ass if she needed it. And if your definition for a mere doll is a mythological creature who was created from clay and bring to life by the blessing of the Gods go check the collective mythos again pal, we are all descendants from a mythological figure that was made of clay and bring to life by God.
Look around and see what "mere dolls" were able to do in the past two thousand years at least without superpowers and magic gadgets.
Probably i am overreacting on that but i am not the one pissing around the grave of ancient modern folklore because isn't thrilling enough for me.
I imagine you want to see Azzarello giving her a machine gun and some rocket propelled grenades in future issues and kill the whole Greek pantheon all by herself until the end of next year, that looks more like your kind of Amazon.
I don't care about what you say after that, at least when Linkara disagrees with me i know he is using his brain at full potential even if i still don't agree with him at the end with him giving the best stream of logical thinking possible at the time, you on the other hand is just lazy.
If I may give an outsider's perspective of Wonder Woman, and by outsider I mean I have only started reading comic books in the past couple of months and the ones I've read, were all Marvel.
ReplyDeleteI'm 23 now, but when I was a real little kid the main superheroes I knew were Batman, Superman, the X-Men, and Wonder Woman. But unlike the rest, I only knew Wonder Woman from her appearance but I knew nothing of her. I knew about Batman and the X-Men from their animated series, and Superman from his animated series as well as the Adventures of Lois & Clark.
As I got a little older I saw that she had a live-action show from before I was born, but I never actually saw it, so I still knew nothing about Wonder Woman herself, outsider of her appearance and abilities. Then the Justice League cartoon came out which I loved but despite being one of the main heroes I feel like I didn't learn much about her(my memory sucks so I could just be forgetting things). Looking back on it, once the Justice League cartoon series ended I felt I knew more about Hawk Girl, John Stewart, & the Martian Manhunter(all of which I never heard of before the cartoon) than Wonder Woman.
It wasn't until Linkara's Amazon's attack prologue that I finally learned anything about Wonder Woman. Then eventually I saw Wonder Woman's animated movie which is my favorite DC movie overall, and loved it and that's the moment where I started to really like Wonder Woman. I see the question a lot of people saying she isn't as popular as Superman for this reason and that reason but as far as I'm concerned, from an outsider's prospective, I agree with FBH991, its because of lack of exposure outside the comic book world.
As for Wonder Woman's origin story, if DC writers were trying to attract me to read their books and just asked me which origin story I found more interesting, the clay one or the Zeus' daughter route, I definitely go with the clay one because it seems different. Having Zeus as a father just seems like something I've seen 1000 times over whether its Kratos in the video game world, Hercules: The Legendary Journeys in the TV world, Clash of the Titans in the movie world.
I know people who are fans of the new origin story are saying that this gives Diana a direct tie to the Greek mythos and opens up many possibilities with Wonder Woman and the Gods, but I'd like to think that if the writers wanted to have Diana have more to do with the gods, then a really talented writer would be able to find a way to do with with out going the cheap route of just making her Zeus' daughter.
And as for those who are complaining about Linkara not giving a reason as to why he thinks the comic is bad or that him not liking the new origin story isn't good enough reason for him to stop reading the comic, I must ask did we just listen to the same video? He clearly said that he wasn't a fan of the way Diana as well as the Amazons were being portrayed in the comics to begin with and the origin story was at most just the final thing that made him lose interest in something that he had already lost interest in. And he never said it was a bad book, actually he said its not a bad book, he basically said this particular Wonder Woman series just isn't his cup of tea.
In the past, people came up to me to ask the same question: 'I know Superman came to Earth in a rocketship and Batman saw his parents shot, but what's the origin of Wonder Woman?'
ReplyDeleteIn the past, I've explained that she was a clay baby given life by the gods after her Amazon queen mother prayed for a child. The questioner looks blank, and tells me they just don't understand a word I've said, and therefore can never, ever try a Wonder Woman comic.
With the coming of Azzarello's version of the Amazon, I can tell them: 'Daughter of a god.' Immediately, they subscribe.
The Wonder Woman issue you had with the clay is the same problem I have with Marvel treating Vision. When I see Vision in Marvel he's either treated as the canon fodder or the butt of the joke because of his marriage. The accusation that Vision is just a robot. When I call bull because his origin was created from the remains of Jim Hammond the Human Torch. As stated by Antman his physical body is practically almost identical to a humans yet he's practically shown through x-rays another robot.
ReplyDelete"DC should stop trying this moronic mash up."
ReplyDeleteBut it sells!
They'd be stupid to shoot this potential cash-cow this early-on!
"They should mash up the Best of Perez with the Best of Marston instead, Azzarello missed the point about Who is Wonder Woman ? Why she came to the World of Men ? And What and How much is she willing to do what is needed to fight against evil ?"
Only that none of these has changed
At least not until confirmed otherwise
"A mere doll you say, well that's a doll who doesn't need kryptonite to kick Superman's ass if she needed it."
You didn't get my point
What I meant was that it created the illusion that she's just a clay-doll kept alive through magic.
While most people are familiar with Greek gods, heroes, and monster, not that many are familiar with the story of Prometheus creating humanity from clay.
Most people when seeing this origin, think immediately of the golem story. And these people include writers as well.
"I imagine you want to see Azzarello giving her a machine gun and some rocket propelled grenades in future issues and kill the whole Greek pantheon all by herself until the end of next year, that looks more like your kind of Amazon."
Definitely no to the first half, maybe to the second, alto I'd object that it's been done before. Azzarello is better than that.
Modern weapons would definitely ruin the mythological theme of the book. A bow would be much more appropriate.
Also wiping out the Olympian pantheon could make for a thrill, but it would be ultimately wasteful.
Good thing Azzarello implied in a recent interview (related to issue 3) that this is not his intention.
As far as I'm concerned, having WW police the gods would be a much more interesting concept.
I hated the new origin. I hated the genericness and the fact that she has a greater relationship to those basterds now more then anything. I had hopes for this, but Azzarello's arrogance in his interview when saying "we have made her better" just made me think these two words: Fuck you. I hate the Greek Pantheon and I liked the idea of Diana going out of her way to protect someone she didn't know and defy her Gods who want this woman dead because she was Zeus' latest booty call. I hate, HATE the Greek Pantheon and while reading Gail Simone's Wonder Woman, which I am going to read more often now, I kept thinking that Diana was the only GOOD thing those basterds have ever made. I am going to read more Batman. Thanks for the recommendation on that.
ReplyDeleteJust curious, but how different is the comic book Wonder Woman from the Justice League animated series?
ReplyDeleteI really like Wonder Woman. I think Brian Azzarello has created a convincing and unexpected direction for the character that makes for a great read. Wonder Woman’s pretty well developed by this point, but it’s the other Amazons that really shine in this issue. Azzarello does a great job giving all of them distinct voices and personalities. This is a book that does not disappoint in terms of long-form story. It builds upon everything that came before in a big way.
ReplyDeleteSeeing how incredibly heated the debate on Wonder Woman's origin has gotten, I guess I should join-in as well.
ReplyDelete(puts in some Gorillaz tracks)
Honestly, I'm surprised people actually care so much.
When someone asked me about Wonder Woman's origin, I told them about Steve Trevor crashing on Paradise Island, About Diana and the Amazons finding out about his mission, and about Diana following him to "man's world" to protect the mortals.
At no point was there any need to bring-up the part about her being a clay-statue, and there's still no need to bring-up her being the daughter of Zeus outside of this particular arc.
It's still the same Diana who made the same decisions in the past, did the same great deeds, and holds the same beliefs.
As far as I'm concerned, not much has really changed.
But let us look a bit closer on this new origin, and compare it with things established by previous writers.
In the Perez origin, which for some reason people seem to hold like some holly gospel, Demeter, Athena, Artemis, Aphrodite, Hestia, and Hermes were all involved in Diana's creation.
Now, Athena and Aphrodite were involved even in the Marston version of the origin.
Now let's look at the stuff that's currently going on. We have Hermes, one of the gods supposedly involved in Diana's creation, appear as one of her allies. When Diana's true origin is brought-up, Hermes seems to already know. He's aware of this despite the circumstances of Diana's birth being so well hidden, no even the Queen of Gods knew it.
Which means that Hermes was most likely in on all of this from the start. Now, combined with Aphrodite and Athene already being established as the patrons of Themyscira, there's reason the believe that all the gods from the Perez origin were part of a conspiracy to protect Diana from Hera. In a way, these gods are STILL Diana's patrons. Not only that, but now they are even closer to her than before. They were all putting their necks on the line to protect little Diana from the wrath of the Queen of God's herself. They were facing actual danger! (And before anyone jumps saying that they are immortal, there are fates FAR worse than death - think Prometheus!)
Of course, none of this is confirmed yet, but it certainly opens the possibility!
Now let's look at the affair itself.
As we know from Greek mythology, Zeus was basically the world's biggest serial rapist. While he never used violence to get his way, he'd often trick a woman into sleeping with him, or do the deed without the woman's knowledge.
But here the whole thing happens completely consensually. No tricks. This time it's just Zeus as himself.
We also get the scene of Zeus and Hippolyta dueling for a period of time that seems to be months, without there being a clear winner.
This references two things.
First, in the old Greek myths, Amazons would only accept a man as their lover if he's proven himself in combat (they would also kidnap weaker men, rape them, and then kill them, but that's a different story)
Second, throughout the entire fight there does not seem to be a clear favorite. At no point does any of them gain the upper hand. You could almost say that they were EQUAL! (le gasp!)
And isn't equality one of the things Wonder Woman is supposed to be about?
Also in a recent interview, Azzarello said that love should be an essential part of Wonder Woman's origin. He implies that it was an act of love, rather than lust on Zeus' part.
If that's true, it makes Diana even more unique than before. She's not just another of Zeus' bastard offspring, she may in fact be the only child he ever conceived out of love!
Now think about that for a minute. Someone as vain and arrogant as Zeus' acknowledged someone as their equal, and actually fell in love with her for that reason.
I'm going to analyze even deeper, and take the sex-scene under the glass. Notice how Zeus and Hippolyta are taking turns in who's on top! As far as sexual symbolism goes, this means allot! A god allowed her to dominate him!
ReplyDeleteAs someone already pointed out, the entire affair is described as "absolute control - given-up"
Diana wasn't created by the gods. She's not the result of some mere romp.
She's literally born out of loving submission!
I'll dare to say that so far Azzarello seems to get her more than any other writer besides Marston ever did!
OK, I admit this is all just me over-analyzing the little information I have at hand, and that I may be proven wrong in future issues, but you are equally guilty of this.
At least I'm being positive.
But honestly, this origin would be perfect for a WW movie.
The common viewer would have a romance to attach to, while the more intellectual ones could enjoy the symbolism.
A cartoon series that wouldn't want to include such sexual themes could simply just start with Steve Trevor crash-landing on Paradise Island. Most people I know were perfectly happy with that explanation.
Now to the other complaints in your video, as well as in the comments.
ReplyDeleteThe complaint about the behavior of the Amazons.
I admit I've been a bit bummed out by the implication that the other Amazons excluded Diana for her supposed origin. But once I thought about it a bit, it's not as bad.
As it was obviously demonstrated in the issue, all of the amazons are individuals! Each one of them has her own opinions and personality. They aren't just some drones made from the same mold!
It's reasonable to believe that there were amazons that looked down upon her, as well as those who were truly loving ans sisterly towards her. And I believe that even the more harsh ones were truly loyal to the collective.
As for why they are suddenly turning on Diana and possibly Hippolyta?
Well, I can kinda understand that.
Diana did kinda bring a malicious goddess to Themyscira, and this is not the first time she did something like this. Not to mention that her spending more time with mortals than her people doesn't necessarily strengthen the bonds.
On top of that Eris (ok, she's called Strife in the comic, but I prefer her true Greek name, plus I'm a bigfan of Grim Adventures) is still on the island, and she's the goddess of conflict and discord. It only makes sense to assume that it's her turning the amazons against each-other. Why don't they just get rid of her? Well, how exactly do you get rid of a goddess without her laying waste to your home and all you hold dear?
Which brings me to another point - how-come everyone's just chatting with Eris after all that she did?
(meanwhile I ran out of Gorillaz tracks to listen to, so I'm switching to some good-old David Bowie)
So why does Diana tolerate Eris around after all she's done? (even tho we know she could fight her, as she did many times before with Ares?)
I think one of the previous cementers already explained it pretty well. Diana and the Amazons think with their heads instead of their hearts on this one. Eris' bloodlust has momentarily passed, and as such she does not pose an immediate threat. Fighting her would only cause more unnecessary deaths, and even if they won, there's not much you can do with a god.
It's allot like in the old myths where one moment a god could make your life a living hell, only to make you his champion the next.
I'm however sure that if no-one else was in danger, Diana wouldn't hold back on this one.
Now to the claims that WW is now nothing more than Kratos with boobs.
ReplyDeleteWRONG!
Kratos only ever cared about vengeance, while Diana cares about the well-being of the ordinary people. Kratos would sacrifice countless of innocents only to get his way. Diana would sacrifice herself for a random stranger
Kratos was a random bastard-child of Zeus, who got screwed-over by the gods. Diana may have been Zeus' only child to be ever born out of love, and was protected by several other gods from the wrath of Hera (still waiting for confirmation).
In a way, Diana is anti-Kratos if nothing else.
Evoking the God of War and 300 feel and aesthetics however is a very smart marketing move on DC's part.
Greeksploitation is at a new height, and jumping of the bandwagon, combined with great writing, is a great way to bring WW to public attention.
And so far it works!
A feminist site even included the series as one of the best current ongoings (along with Batwoman and Buffy)
Which brings me to the final point, the theme and direction.
I fully agree that this is a department in which Wonder Woman was always lacking.
Marston had a good thing going on in the early days, where he could have Diana's femininity be a central theme.
She was a powerful female hero, who fought formidable female opponents (the Baroness, Cheetah, Doctor Poison, Giganta), or male opponents who'd like to humble her for her femininity (Duke of Deception, Doctor Psycho). But with Marston's death and the arrival of CCA, the series pretty-much became "Bewitched with superheroes"
When it finally became safe to talk about gender-equality again, and Dennis O'Neil got a chance to re-vitalize the series, he turned Wonder Woman from an amazon into a travelling martial artist fighting against terrorists.
(and while we are at this point in her history, I want anyone objecting against Wonder Woman using guns to look at this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/WonderWoman1970s.jpg
BEST. COVER. EVER!)
Gerry Conway eventually did a "back to the roots" , but while good, there already were many other female heroes around, so Diana just wasn't as unique anymore.
George Pérez tried to increase the importance of her mythological background, but was responsible for allot of convoluted elements in the background, and damaged her supporting cast by basically pulling a One More Day on Diana and Steve (he was actively preventing the two from ever getting together again), ammongst other things.
At least Azzarello did his change in a way that makes all the previous stories still possible.
Due to these inconsistencies over the year, Wonder Woman was all over the place, unable to maintain a theme, a supporting cast, or a rogues gallery.
With the current surge in popularity of gritty Greek mythology, combined with the relaunch, and Azzarello's attempts at building WW as a combination of her Golden Age roots (unlike Perez) and even stronger use of Greek myths (which he seems to be VERY well versed in), there is a chance he may be the one to finally succeed to establish her (he did get her into the top 20)
And if not him, there's always Grant Morrison with his planned Golden Age throwback.
Finally, I'll address the long-overdue comment on Action Comics
ReplyDelete(meanwhile I ran out of David Bowie, so I'll just switch to some fun 80s pop)
I personally think it's a genius move on GM's part.
When Action Comics #1 came out at the end of the 30s, the world was in the middle of the great depression. Superman gave people what they wanted, a powerful her who would stand-up for the little-man.
Now the world's in the middle of another economic crisis. Corporation's are attempting to seize even more power over our everyday lives than they already have (do I really need to remind you of the recent internet censorship act?) And in the middle of all this, a new Action Comics #1 appears, with superman once again protecting the little man from the corrupt corporate
The timing couldn't be any better this
GM perfectly tapped into the essence of the era, which is also probably why the series is in the top 3
It was time for this Superman to make a return
(damn, why do these things always take so much time to write?)
If you like the Batman book and I mean "Batman" then i suggest you pick up the new Penguin miniseries Pain and Prejudice. It's a great character study of one of Batman's most ridiculed villains and makes him awesome.
ReplyDeleteI got a question, did Superman just kill a bunch of parademons in Justice League issue 3. I mean if you look at him when he is fighting them he is tearing their limbs off. I mean that doesn't really sound Superman like. Can someone please tell me whether parademons are living or not? Like are paradeomns robots or real living organisms? I hope there robots, because Superman should NEVER KILL!
ReplyDeletewell they look like robot and they get killed a lot
ReplyDeleteso i think it's natural assuming they're robot
I don't understand why they don't just say that Wonder Woman has two mums and she was born when Hippolita's partner prayed to the goddesses beause Hippolita wanted a daughter. Solves the issue of where Diana came from and gives DC brownie points for having a loving lesbian couple raise a child together.
ReplyDeleteIt appears I'm in the minority but I actually prefer the reboot Wonder Woman reconnected origin story included because it better fits in with both my personal opinion of the world/humanity in general and how ancient greek amazons would act. I'm not trying to convince others it's just mu opinion. Thats all I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteThe main reasons for which are as follows:
1.To me the prejudice against Diana and the desire for a coup against Hippolyta shows the Themyscirian community has been given greater realism in regards to what they are an isolated human society unified for historical reasons but not technically an actual utopia. Their prejudice against Diana for believing the clay origin is reasonable given real world: racial, national, and cultural prejudices. Their desire to stage a coup against Queen Hippolyta is also not unreasonable because if they have gotten to the stage of considering such action means talking and negotiation has failed thus bringing about the abolishion of the monarchy in a way more in line with the modern, widely recognised reality of those with/in near to absolute power never want to give it up. (I know it doesn't state the amazons tried talking and negiogating with Queen Hippolyta the comic but it stands to reason and thus should occur to the reader as what has happened given those of the intended audience age range would have enough of a basic theoretical and historical political understanding).
2.Also to me the idea of human child being conceived in/born in clay makes more sense as a cover story otherwise is as silly/daft being s .U.S.1's coin remote control. Also they at least show Zeus respected Hippolyta as kind of an equal given how they are drawn fighting together instead of having Diana as either Zeus or Heracles rape child that Athena made her keep as a personal: punishment for allowing the amazons to be defeated by Heracles/second reminder of the subsequent slavery, (the first being the bullet proof chain bracelets).
When you get down to it in any iteration the amazons are an: archaic, isolationist, highly gender prejudice cult. Not exactly mass appeal protagonist culture.
I can't believe I read all these year-and-a-half reviews, and I got 1 thing: people are idiots. And did no-one mentioned that Diana's original origin made her been born without the intervention of Man and that's awesome? Ugh.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, that completely turned me off, but I stuck around until you-know-what, I should've known