Monday, March 31, 2014

The Avengers #200

 photo Avengers-200-Thumbnail_zpscd9fa6a4.jpg

Babies and other dimensions and a whole lot of just awful.


KainGerc said...

oh, the silly 80's with their silly rape stories.

LucasChad said...

I'm sure even the guys at Toys R' Us wanted their logo taken off their cover of this issue. No sweepstakes could even wipe the ick off this comic. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go watch some Captain America, The Avengers, and other Marvel movies to cleanse myself of this mess.

Speaking of which, the new Captain America movie comes out this Friday. The movie's already getting a 93% rating on Rotten Tomatoes, so it has to be a great sequel!

Lizard-Man said...

This was a great little birthday gift. Nothing like having an infamously terrible comic ripped to shreds in front of you and drunk Tony Stark to cap it all off. Thanks Linkara, you've made my day.

Zachary Krishef said...

I really, really, REALLY wish that I could watch this! Sadly, I am still in the August of 2013. I'm done with the HOPR, at least, and my sister and I are enjoying the Pokemon Omicron Let's Plays. Have an excellent day, Linkara, and everyone else who will leave a comment or read this blog!

Erik Johnson Illustrator said...

Given he's been nothing but insufferable comedy relief this whole issue I think Beast's "Poke" sound effect was supposed to come across as some kind of cartoonish Three Stooges style sound effect like when Moe poked Larry or Curly in the eyes.

RyaB said...

The George Perez joke was golden. You had me laughing out loud, good sir. In all seriousness, the world could always use a little more Perez and his presence here is the only tolerable element of this otherwise terrible, terrible issue. Like always, Linkara, great review. Thanks again for the laughs!

Nate said...

Aw, you were so close to making a Hostess Fruit pie joke at the beginning. ("..The Nazis were trying to steal our apple pies.")

DMaster said...

Kindly burn in Avernus, Phlegethos, and any other fiery hell alongside One More Day and Marville, you USELESS PIECE OF UTTER CONTEMPTIBLE BILE OF A COMIC!!! DIE AND NEVER EVER EVER RETURN!!!


(ahem) I think it's safe to say I'm not a fan of this one, and the only time I laughed was in the episode's stinger (though the "But Mo-o-om!" jokes were mildly amusing within the larger context of this HORRIBLE affair).

...why does this book exist?

J Dee Carter said...

THANK YOU! I've been waiting so many weeks for this review, I even have it circled on my calendar.

I've been reading Marvel my entire life (well, up until One More Day), and I still say this is the most baffling issue they've ever done of anything in continuity.

I was probably in the fourth grade or so when I read this, and even at that young an age I couldn't understand what the hell the Avengers were thinking because she'd CLEARLY been brain washed!

Honestly, most of the Avengers were pretty stupidly written back then (Captain American didn't grow a brain until Gruenwald wrote him, Wonder Man was a himbo, Beast was a socially oblivious science nerd in the Avengers, and Wasp and Wanda were just ditzes for the most part) but Iron Man and Dr. Pym not realizing this? Ugh, it still hurts my brain.

Thanks again for the review, I'll be watching this many times over!

Anonymous said...

I had no idea what was going to happen in this issue because I didn't look it up because I didn't want to know...and I still don't want to know what happened in this issue. Where's my mind soap?

I think I'm going to adopt your head canon for this one Linkara...Tony Stark was really drunk.

Good job making an enjoyable episode out of crap.

Smith in the Attic said...

A love story worthy of Stephanie Meyer...

Kyle Freedman said...

another wonderful episode Linkara. i love coming home from a class on a rainy day to find another one of your episodes up. i actually wanted to ask you a question. one of my classes is asking me to interview an individual as part of our final papers. as such, my question is "would you be opposed to being interviewed for the paper?" if you are okay with it then the interview would be conducted via some form of messaging system online as there is a multi day distance between us. also, if you do accept the focus of the interview would be on your created portions i.e. your character, allies, enemies and plotlines. if you dont want to doit i understand that you are a busy man and will continue to look foward to more episodes. thank you.

Sydney Sutter said...

Headcanon accepted!

The thing that REEEEAAALLY pisses me off about this (outside of everything else) is that, even if she WAS just a stand in, Carol had been an Avenger for all of zero seconds before this crap happened, when really, someone like her deserved the most to be an Avenger, probably as much as Spider-Man. Mind you, I don't know how recent of a character she was at this point, but still.

Also, because of how dumb the Avengers were in this scene and how poorly handled the pregnancy was, I'm surprised you didn't use THIS clip from Star Trek: TNG.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need a shower too...

The Id said...

I remember the verbal trashing Carol gave The Avengers for the crap done here and because of it (and his X-men run in general) have tremendous respect for Chris Claremont, Which brings me to the point I want to make.

Why don't more writers point out the failings of or call out the mistakes done in comic books by older writers? Especially after large shows of anger by the very people they are selling comics too.

Bendis brought up a quote by Marv Wolfman, "In my mind, continuity means the best writer at a company is held hostage by the worst." and yeah it's true. Let's take One More Day or Ultimatum for examples, both events that too this very day, cast a shadow over the comic books they affected, for about six years now, when they are referenced they aren't done so in a way that fixes problems caused by them or even acknowledges them, but humors the events as is, and in the case of Dan Slott, pokes fun at readers who disliked them. (An earlier issue of his Amazing Spider-man run had Peter and Mary Jane laughing about the idea of them being ever a couple, not in a way foreshadowing the future way, but a "HA, that's stupid, and you're stupid for thinking that there's any way that would happen!" I mean seriously dude, these are people who put money in your wallet. Why are you mocking them?)

8tailsjinchuuriki said...

I saw a Win a Toys R Us shopping spree on the cover, of the image on your blog. Thought you would comment on that.

Why couldn't the woman Immortus saved willing have sex with him. He saved her life. I know not everyone would have sex with someone after saving their life but it wouldn't feel disgusting. My guess is, to quote SFDebris "It was probably done to give it a consistent feel. Which it did. It's just consistently bad."

John Mourby said...


I don't think you can say anything more than that.

Even as someone desensitised to incest in fiction this made me cringe a little.

I'm glad you like Captain Marvel's new costume. I also think it's her best so far. I'm not reading Captain/Ms Marvel but that's just because I don't have a local comic shop and I'm still unsure about where I want to buy digital comics.
But yeah both are very progressive moves on Marvel's part and just sound fun. So good on you present-day Marvel.

As for this story.... Well at least we can look back fondly on a time where awful mistakes like this would be taken out of canon ASAP rather than kept in canon by arrogant writers and editors (Looking at you Sins past/One More Day/Superior Spider man. ........Those are all Spiderman stories..... Wow that sucks).

Dex said...

This has been an review I have waited for,great job!! Also I've seem to have noticed that some Avengers members have been screwed over, asked for helped but been ignored. World's Mightiest Heroes, ladies and gentlemen!

Examples:*Carol Danvers(obviously)

*Scarlet Witch: had her taken away by good-old Mr. Mephisto.

*Eros/Starfox: you know, superhero brother of supervillian Thanos? Written by Dan Slott who doesn't understand that one of his powers really does is to make people feel good. Which is basically a brain massage.
Think you want to review those comics because I thought they are terrible

*Wonder Man/Simon: raped by the Scarlet Witch when she was crazy in Avengers West Coast #57


*Thor: Tony Stark stealing his DNA, creating a robot clone that killed heroes during the Civil War event.

*Hulk/Bruce Banner

How are any of them are still friends with each others, or even working together? They all really team building exercises.

Lostshadows said...

I thought it was "Mom, apple pie, and baseball."

Jocasta has medical programming? I can't see Ultron bothering giving her any. He's rather a "kill all the humans" kind of robot. (I'm not saying this is incorrect, just kind of odd.)

And if you're pronouncing Jocasta wrong, so am I. I can't see any other way to pronounce it.

It actually makes sense to deal with the child birth in a surgical setting. Even with a normal pregnancy, there's a chance a c-section might be needed.

With a "we have no idea how this happened" pregnancy, there's all kinds of things that might happen that could need surgical intervention.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"another wonderful episode Linkara. i love coming home from a class on a rainy day to find another one of your episodes up. i actually wanted to ask you a question. one of my classes is asking me to interview an individual as part of our final papers. as such, my question is "would you be opposed to being interviewed for the paper?""

Yeah, sadly I have to decline. ^^; I'd actually love to do it, but I have a lot on my plate for the next several weeks. Thanks for the offer, though!

Mr. Kenneth said...

I sincerely hope that, IF they do something about One More Day, they handle it like they did with this comic: Not only acknowledge the problems of that story in-universe, but do something about it to make things right, instead of just retconning the entire story out of existance.

MasterSeijin said...

So then...why exactly did this comic not deserve to burn?

I assume it's because burning things outside your apartment complex is more difficult than at your parents' house. Still, you could have found a way I think.

Not only would you be making a statement against piss poor comic writing, but against rapists as well.

Tia Wheeler said...

Your headcanon is accepted! Tony Stark got himself drunk, passed out, and had this as a nightmare.

In all honesty, just from what we have seen, I believe that all surviving issues of this comic need to be taken out to the area in which the ET Atari game cartridges are supposedly buried. Afterwards, they need to be thrown in a hole, sprinkled with salt, and burned Supernatural-style.

I need to go play Avengers Alliance and wipe this thing from my brain. Thank you for tearing this thing a new one, Linkara.

Julie Paulson said...

While this comic is awful for many reasons, I would like to say that having people watch you give birth is the least of its problems. My mother had her first son at home, with four guys standing around taking pictures (which she still has). Just a minor point, though, since everything else in here is reprehensible.

Lotus Prince said...

Ooh! New bad grammar example!

"From when did you come?"

No, Thor. Just "whence." Whence means "from where," so asking "from whence" is effectively asking "from from where did you come." Nice try, Marvel. :-P

Also, Poke a Hontas week. Poke. A Hontas. Poke...

Okay,look - half of what comes out of my mouth is bad puns, but that is a BAAAAAD freaking pun.

Kaze Koichi said...

What have you done to me, Linkara! I play Marvel Puzzle Quest and always read all Iron Man's lines in "drunk Tony Stark" voice.

Anders said...

It's probably smart to have the delivery in a surgical theatre, because they might have to perform an unplanned Caesarean.

Which raises it's own problems - isn't Carol Danvers blessed with resistance to damage? I'd hate to do a Caesarean on SuperGirl without Kryptonite scalpels...

DestinyZX1 said...

Man that story ruined the character of Ms. Marvel. I really hate that. I enjoyed seeing Miss Marvel in Avengers: EMH and she was a confident character. Very confident.

But this... this is just horrible.

One of the 10 Worst Moments in Marvel Comics. Funny thing is that the website where I saw it had others on the list that you reviewed. Ultimatum being one of them. Dear lord.

Thanks for the episode Linkara. It made my day big time. Funny thing is that after Avengers Annual #10, Carol became a part of Uncanny X-Men for a time. Nice job Marvel for ruining her.

Anonymous said...

still a better love story than Twilight

The Blue Saint said...

Weird question is this the first mention of Chris Claremont in the show? I can't remember if he was mentioned during the X-Men #1 review, I don't think he was.

You know this seem like odd thing for the Avengers to do, but they do have a history of making poor choices. Like letting Wasp marry Yellowjack/Pym when he was clearly in no proper state of mind to be making major life decisions. Also why the Avengers may not have been party to it, there is also the whole weird Mantis/Swordmans/Celestial Madonna thing that just comes off as wrong.

Doctor Fozzie said...

This comic...

...ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the mindfuck!

"Paranoia, paranoia
Everybody's coming to get me
Just say you never met me
I'm running underground with the moles, digging holes
Hear the voices in my head
I swear to God it sounds like they're snoring;
But if you're bored, then you're boring.
The agony and the irony: they're killing me, whoa!

I'm not sick but I'm not well
And I'm so hot 'cause I'm in Hell
I'm not sick but I'm not well
And it's a sin to live this well

I'm not sick but I'm not well
And I'm so hot 'cause I'm in Hell
I'm not sick but I'm not well
And it's a sin to live this well"

...seriously, what the fuck did I just WATCH?

What the hell, Marvel?

Movie-Brat said...

As much as Batman is my all time favorite superhero but really out of all the two big name comic book companies, I'm more of a Marvel fan especially nowadays as they're at least making progress especially given the new Ms. Marvel with Kamala Khan.

This comic is something I can't defend Marvel for. No, it's just completely wrong. I found out about this story last year when MovieBob talked about Carol Danvers (whom I will always refer to as Captain Marvel for the record, sorry but I don't care for the little boy who transforms into a superhero despite a cool catchphrase to transform into), who was Ms. Marvel at the time.

He brought up this story and just hearing what he had to say, yikes. It's horrible and I wondered how the hell did it get published or more so, did anyone even notice something was wrong?

All I'm saying is, I love this review. It's my personal favorite with a lot of very good riffs and spot on jokes and observations. This comic had it coming really.

The Edwardian Girl said...

Brilliant review, Linkara!

The comic came out before I was born but my Dad once remarked he had read it. He had borrowed it from his brother and returned it with a note asking if the comic was a joke? He refused to believe they could be serious.

Anonymous said...

1st Truly, only Americans could be as arrogant to assume that they are the only nation that sees importance in motherhood

OK, I've seen Philip J. Fry become his own grandfather
I've seen David Lister be his own father
I've seen my share of incest hentai and fan-fiction, enough to consider my self jaded and desensitized
yet, I find my self dumbstruck and dumbfounded by this story-line
I mean....
I've seen self-cest shipping fanfics that were more coherent than this
Just... What were they thinking?

I mean, there are people who just set-out to write a sexualized incest or even rape story
Some sugar-coat it, some not, but I have yet to see one that would be as bad as this one (and I've seen some REALLY bad shit out there), and I'm pretty damn sure this story was NOT written with the intent of being an incest shipping fic (with an OC nonetheless)

How did it even come to this?

Howcome that something that was not intended to be creepy ended-up being creepier than things that are deliberately creepy?

Nick Noel said...

I almost have to wonder if the "happy" ending was done because they realized it was a rape story and all the awful implications of it and went "But if she loves him and goes with him everything will be ok. Than it's not really rape."

Janis Akots said...

OH GOD! Well since i dont read comics my main interpretation of Miss Marvel is from The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon where she is voiced By Jennifer Hale aka Fem-shep aka sure way to have a bad-ass female character. Id imagine that if some writer wanted to do something like that with that version of the character she would warp in to reality have the writer brought up to the Normandy and tosed out the air-lock

Anonymous said...

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I prefer DC to Marvel on any given day of the year

Anonymous said...

waiting for N. to start a shit-storm again

Arianne said...

What the funky fresh did I just watched ?. I think I need a shower and I need to watch Marvel's Super Hero Squad Show again to wash away the ick.

Anonymous said...

Where is the burning! Consign it to the INFERNO!

Seriously you're not living up to your tagline! and this freaking trumps Superman at Earth's end in badness

Pat Rick said...

I appreciate you bringing up Avengers Annual #10 in this review. Talk about righting a terrible wrong in one swoop. Thankfully, the character is getting better treatment nowadays.

Also, glad to hear you are enjoying the Ms. Marvel series.

doug.glassman said...

You know what's really sad? A decade or so later, just about the exact same thing happened with Power Girl, but instead of having the son be his own father, we instead never found out who the father was. (It was hinted as being either Aquaman or Green Lantern... replacing incest with slut-shaming, great job DC!)

This was also after Power Girl got semi-depowered and derailed character-wise into just being a huge bitch.

Anyway, that kid grew up superfast as well, defeated some villain as Equinox, and then vanished as soon as possible. The wondrous effects of Zero Hour, ladies and gentlemen! The only good things to come from it were Starman and Flash #0.

Solid Fox said...

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

OK. I've read a lot of stories in my life. I've read a lot of stupid stories written by people on dA. But I've never read anything as bad or offensive as this comic. I'm quite startled that this story actually got publish. Seriously, this comic is so bad that I'm quite surprised that you haven't burned this comic along with all seven issues of Marville. This comic is so dumb, that there ISN'T ANY BRAIN BEHIND IT THAT KNOWS BETTER THEN THIS- *calms down* -that my own independent stories I've written would be great besides this comic.

Seriously, what the Hell?!

Anonymous said...

By some strange coincidence, not only do I own the Avengers Essential #1 Anthology, but also issues 201-203, or the "Ultron Undying" story as I call it.

This story really IS bad: This is one of the first bad Avengers comics (Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum don't count in my mind) that I've even heard of.

And it's so considerate of your former teammate when, right in the beginning of #201, they just sweep it under the rug with a few lines of dialogue (Although Ultron WAS stealing adamantium samples and brainwashing Iron Man).

Actually, THAT should've been Avengers 200: Issues 201 and 202 are much better, and quite entertaining stories put back-to-back. Not the exploits of the goofy son of a badass time-bender raping a cherished character!

Anonymous said...

I might be thinking of someone else, but doesn't Chris Claremont have a reputation for being a bit of a mind control enthusiast himself?
If that's the case, I don't know if that makes him the ironic or perfect choice for being the one to have Danvers take the Avengers to task for not recognizing that she was brainwashed.

Anonymous said...

OK, who's brilliant idea was it to hire 4chan write canon stuff for Marvel?

DrunkenAxe said...

You know,Joss Whedon himself commonly implies that he doesn't think Avengers was the best,because it wasn't the movie he wanted to make.
He was hired so late in the game most of the story was already set in stone by the producers and previous writer.He was stuck with Loki for example,when he wanted to use Ultron from the start.

Avengers is a very producer controlled film,Thats why there's by far the least characterization and team chemistry of anything Whedon. And why EVERYTHING in the movie revolves around action set pieces.

Whedon said Avengers 2 will be more grown-up will not attempt to outdo the spectacle of Avengers,but instead will reign it in and be more personal.

I can see why YOU'D like Avengers,when Captain America fought Loki in Germany,the stiff fight choreography looked just like Power Rangers...

Loki mind controlling Hawkeye in the first 5 minutes was godawful. Moreso than all it's peers,Avengers is a kid's movie that cuts closer to Transformers than Iron Man.

Anonymous said...

Wait…The Mother’s name is Carol…And the Child is called Marcus…
Carol…Marcus…Was that an Intentional Star Trek Reference!?

Good to see new advert bumpers there and good to see you actually wearing that overcoat again.

Maybe Marcus is absorbing their intelligence, hence explaining why he’s so smart and they’re acting so dumb?

Wait…Prank Calls?
When more than one person calls up saying that there are things from the past appearing all across the city, you’d at least CHECK wouldn’t you?

Somehow, that shot of the Flying Ships, attacking a giant dinosaur, whose attacking the mansion, has just made this entire review worth it! That…IS AWESOME…

POKE-Ahontis? Urg, It’s Care Bears meets Screw Balls all over again!

Ah, Drunk Iron Man, I missed you.

Good review though, Linkara.
Looking forward to seeing more from you! ;3

Jesse said...

Wow this was some bad crap. I've heard of this story but never wanted to read it. I see now I was right.

Thanks for torturing yourself for us on this on Linkara. Drink vonda and watch the 90s X-Men and be happy.

John R. Ellis said...

You seem to be remembering a later iteration of Beast, J Dee Carter. At this point, Hank wasn't depicted as a socially oblivious science nerd, but as a "swinger" who went out with tons of women, listened to the alternative music of the day, and was strongly implied (at least as much as one could under the comics code) to "party" in some very non-Code approved ways.

None of which excuses his behavior in this story, but there you go. The writing in this was a mess all around.

John R. Ellis said...

Anonymous: Nonsenswe! Claremont isn't into mind control, he's into bondage and vacations in England! *g*

(Not necessarily in that order.)

Tracey said...


At least Power Girl had a say in it

and it's only slut-shaming if someone brands it as slutty or indecent
The fact that the father is unknown alone does not count as slut-shaming, unless you yourself are calling Power Girl a slut, in which case, shame on you

Also, if it's Aquaman, then she had a damn good taste

Knightsky said...

"Donald Blake become Thor to assist - out of sight, because I guess he doesn't want them knowing for some reason."

Yeah, at the time the Avengers didn't know Thor's secret ID (except for Iron Man, as the two had known each other's true identities for a few years at that point). This was back when secret ID's was a more common thing among super-heroes; it wasn't uncommon for team members to still keep their true identities from their teammates.

cafeterialoca said...

You forgot!

"Marcus turned into a skeleton cause his rapid aging didnt' stop"

Serves him right!

Anonymous said...

"OK, who's brilliant idea was it to hire 4chan write canon stuff for Marvel?"

Amazingly enough, 4chan hates Avengers Arena.

Anonymous said...

You know you're doing something wrong when Chris freakin' Claremont thinks your mind control story is too skeevy.

Anonymous said...

Next Week,


Anonymous said...

Ok, good review. I know that particular issue had to have such a stupidly high squick level that writing for it couldn't have been comfortable.

But I do have one small question. How come you didn't burn this one? Horrible story telling full of holes and ghastly mis-characterizations of iconic characters centered around a squicky disgusting plot? That sounds at least as bad as Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again, and that got burned. Just my one item, rest was solid. =)

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Next Week,


Well, to be accurate, in APRIL it will be back. XD I've still got a lot on my plate, so chances are good later in the month rather than earlier.

Anonymous said...

I see where Claremont was coming from in how he handled it, but I'd actually prefer if it *had* been retconned away. Much like Identity Crisis and One More Day for the JLA and Spidey, such massive character defilement rather lessens my respect for Cap and the team.

But maybe that's my fault for having a hard time reconciling my suspension of disbelief with the ability to develop a head cannon.

The "real" heroes would never act like this in a long shot and such blasphemous suggestions to the contrary don't deserve to be dignified with a response.

Sijo said...

Finally, a review of a comic I actually own! :) Hey, I had no idea it was going to suck this much when I bought it, OK?

It seems to me that the whole point of the comic was to get rid of Miss Marvel- without killing her. That happened *a lot* back in the day; it was as if they hated to leave plots dangling for future writers to deal with.

And despite his denying it, I suspect this was mainly Shooter's idea. He has a reputation for imposing ideas other writers and editors hated, and this was far from the only one that got undone as soon as his influence was gone.

It should be noted, though, that while Claremont did bring Carol and made it clear how stupid the Avengers had been, he still ended up depowering her (though that might have been mandated.) At least he (later) made her a supporting character in X-Men and eventually gave her a new super-identity as Binary Star (it was then she gained her energy powers, btw, she didn't have those as Miss Marvel.)

Finally I just want to say: while I have yet to check her new series, I really dislike Carol's new look. And I can't help but wonder if giving her the full Captain Marvel title is just the company once again keeping the trademark off DC's hands, and not because they trust her as a character.

Max said...

Ya know, for Spider-Man's 200th issue, he settled his score with the burglar who killed Uncle Ben. It was a damn good issue, as Spidey got over his oldest guilt (yeah, that lasted all of, what, three issues?), and looked forward to his future. And it featured ZERO multi-modal-reflection-raping.

Oh, and for issue 300 he battled Venom for the first time. Awesome.

Jesse said...

That head cannon works for me.

Having said that, of course, I still find myself wondering who's what that story got pulled out of. The issues this story had, incest-rape being top of the list and followed closely by the overload of in-general stupid throughout, lead to my just not understanding how it ended.

It just confounds me how "stories" like this keep getting approved and run with all the way to publication and distribution. Part of me wants to give the comics business a chance, but knowing that things like this story keep happening really holds me back.

Rich B said...

This may have been one of your best reviews. I admit there are times when you say how awful a story is and for whatever reason I don't see it. This one, I get it. This comic should check out Justice League of America #200 which is an utterly fantastic 200 issue. I don't what the heck this was.

Anonymous said...

I got a question, Lewis.

What happened to Marcus? Has he been retconed out of existence?

Cat C said...

I feel rather ill with this comic.

I have rarely been so happy to NOT see Black Widow.

You know, was this just an excuse to get rid of Carol? I can't remember which writer but one admitted they hated Black Widow and when they took over Daredevil (which is where she was at the time) quickly got rid of her from the stories.

THIS is why I stay almost exclusively in the MCU.

Without giving spoilers we're getting Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver for Avengers 2, I'd say there is hope for Carol (depending on who owns her rights).

I knew Beast was an Avenger at some point, didn't know he was a complete moron during that time.

I was glad we had at least glimpses of Hawkeye having a brain.

Was that a thing, everyone always in costume? I get why that happens a lot in cartoons because it's re-used animations but why the comics so much?

Also, am glad Hawkeye is in a more Ultimate Universe costume for the movies. I don't LIKE Ultimate Universe Hawkeye but aspects of that costume (minus the mask, thankfully) suits the character better.

I am grateful you brought this comic to light and tore it down, but I don't think this one is going to be on my re-watch list for the next play through of your eps.


TImeTravelerJessica said...

"This lady wins a sweepstakes and then there are dinosaurs. WHAT? It gave context later but I was just like floored ... I was like you in Nova Girls last week. "I'm in hell."

I like it being Tony's drunk dream. That's the new canon. I will accept nothing else. Actually all terrible, overly complicated Marvel storylines are now Tony's attempts to write his autobiography and getting off topic while thoroughly inebriated. "And then Peter Parker turned into a giant spider and gave birth to himself ... damn it Steve why are you so uptight? I'm not even drunk yet! Gimme back that absinthe!"

"Go off to live in limbo with her rapist husband son" is a phrase that should not exist, and conveys both extreme horror and hilarity. The whole thing is ewwwtastic.

Why is Beast so dumb in this?!

Oh this was so written by men. Which isn't a slam against men since most men would have written this better but it's really difficult to imagine a woman (at least one over the age of fifteen or so) not taking the whole "mysteriously pregnant" thing with a little more gravity. Even the fourth Twilight book played it for more drama and was less ... juvenile. Like it was still disturbingly masochistic on Bella's part but at least people took it seriously and everyone didn't react like "Oh! Baby shower whee!" (Are the Avengers twelve-year-old girls in this continuity? Because that might be an interesting story. I'll go write fanfiction now.)

This really is like "The Child." Anyone interested in further reasons this was stupid should see Chuck's (SF Debris) review of that episode.

LOL comics Hawkeye is a jerk. He's one of my favorites from the MCU and the cartoon Earth's Mightiest Heroes but he always makes me want to slap him in comics. But then again everyone made me want to slap them in this. Especially Tony. DON'T GIVE THE HELL BABY LASERS TONY WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Jocasta ... you're not going to find any solutions on Vision's Ethernet cable.

William Ngo said...

I like Carol’s Captain Marvel outfit as well, though I hate the hair she started with when wearing it. It got better though. I don’t mind the black suit. At least Carol has invulnerability as an excuse for skimpiness. I’m looking at you, Psylocke. Though she also got a better costume, though that one is kinda just boring. Also, I’m surprised you didn’t mention the new Ms. Marvel, Kamala Khan, some more. Her outfit is pretty good as well (or at least the one she'll eventually have as seen in All-New Marvel NOW! Point One). It conveys that she’s a fan of Carol’s while just looking good, has bright colours and good colour balance, and the scarf conveys youth. Good design.
Why the hell are all the heroes in their costumes when watching Carol give birth? You just know Iron Man needs to pee.
The Wasp is the absolute worst in this. If I were Carol, I’d take a page from Hank Pym’s book and slap her. She’s just the most unbearable one.
The conversation between Wanda and Vision about kids… oh, hindsight. The pain that that woman will bring… But hey, she created two Young Avengers (Wiccan and Speed).
19:52 – Wait… Did Wonder Man actually ask Hank Pym that?! Judging from the past tense, I’m guessing Hank’s “incident” has happened already. Just casually bringing up a guy’s divorce, nice, dude.
22:44 – Who honestly thought a story where a woman is attracted to her baby, one conceived through RAPE, was a good idea?! I don’t even… what drug was the writer on, and where can I get some?!
I gotta admit, I laughed at Beast’s pun. Only because of how bad it was.
28:14 – There you go. “Subtle manipulations of my father’s ingenious machines”? How was that SUPPOSED to come off?! What was the INTENDED meaning behind that?! Again, what the hell was the writer on?!
Wait, so Marcus has standards in that he will at least TRY to not rape a woman, before not taking no for an answer and raping her… knowing that she will become his mother… Again, what the fuck?
Yep, all the plot holes are gaping wide… Just with those, how did this go through editors?
34:40-35:57 – And there it is… Woman, this guy just admitted to RAPING YOU! If you feel anything towards him, other than seething hatred, then you aren’t in the right state of mind! And the Avengers are utter idiots in all of this.
I remember reading about what Chris Claremont, God of the X-Men, wrote to follow-up this utter piece of crap. Kudos to him for doing so.
Also, our old pal Chuck Austen wrote a storyline similar to this wherein Nightcrawler’s father, who is kind of the devil, impregnated women with his children, who are all essentially Nightcrawlers, so they could teleport him out of hell. And it’s revealed that Nightcrawler is thus a son of a demon… even though his appearance was supposed to be IRONIC due to his faith. I hope it makes it onto Atop the Fourth Wall one day.

William Ngo said...

I’m with you, Linkara. Too early to early for any deeper opinions regarding the current Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel series, other than some hype backlash for Ms. Marvel, what with people praising the series as the second coming of Christ, which I largely attribute to the race thing. Which means anyone who says they don't like it is risking being flamed as a racist (just like with Miles Morales as Ultimate Spider-Man) by angry idiots. That said, it is nice that Marvel is adding diversity to their universe and, so far, Ms. Marvel is very good, largely because it actually has a very good portrayal of a teenager (I'm looking at you, Teen Titans and Young Avengers (Marvel NOW series)), and even though I'm not Muslim or Pakistani, I can relate through similar experiences with my own background. I look forward to reading more.

LordTerminal said...

Oh. THIS story. I remember MovieBob's whole Big Picture talk about this issue.

On the plus side, at least Ms. Marvel has had a pretty good solo career since then.

BookwormOtaku said...

When this was announced my thoughts were "Hmm, a bad Avengers story... how bad could it possibly be?" Oh by the grace of Eriond I never would have guessed...

No wonder this is so despised by the Marvel fanbase. Even your average second rate dark eroge treats its heroines better than Ms. Marvel was in this, so yes Linkara you're right, even your average writers for porn would reject this story. Please burn it someday

themadworld said...

Dear God that was terrifying.

I've watched a lot of your reviews, and after some pretty horrid stuff you've covered (Lian's death, ASBAR, etc.), this is the most revolted I've felt after watching the review (on a side note, the review was excellent, making the best out of a terrible comic). I found myself hugging myself by the end of the review because it was just so…ugly.

Since I like to look at the bright side of things, I can safely say that I have a heart, and I know this because someone heartless would not have been so revolted by that comic.

FugueforFrog said...

Yeah...that was horrible. I think you said everything that was wrong with the comic in the review and the damage done to Carol that it took Clarmont (and Rogue stealing her powers) to start to fix. I don't get why anyone would let THIS be the 200th issue but I think there was something about trying to cut back on "clone characters" at the time...mind you this was around the time they still had Spider-Woman and She-Hulk books but of course this was also a year before the original Captain Marvel died.

Freaky to hear Pym talk about his "love affair with his wife" considering a year later in the same book was the slapping incident and an entire story just to prove that Tigra, the first "truly independent" Marvel heroine, didn't belong on the team...yeah, Avengers was really crummy with their females until Roger Stern came along with Shulkie, the black Captain Marvel and a way improved Wasp.

And hey, Micheline wrote "Demon in a Bottle" so the Tony being drunk the whole time has credence.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, this story is just...really confusing at best. And for a milestone story, I expect less potentially offensive impregnation crap and more awesome stuff like, well, Iron Man punching out a dinosaur. A full-scale battle with Doctor Doom or something. To quote the AVGN: What were they thinking?!

Sigh...oh well, at least we don't have this sort of crap in comics right now and oh wait unfortunately we do. Who was that recent DC writer who was basically a sexist meathead?

Jeff Jacobson said...

The whole "prank calls" think reminds me of Springfield Police's response to the reports of Stampy the elephant destroying things in town.

James Picard said...

In regards to the pregnancy surgery thing, some women do end up needing surgery if there are complications with the birthing process. This actually happened when I was born, as the umbilical cord was tangled around my neck. Long and probably gross story short, (I didn't press for details for obvious reasons) it was extremely painful for my Mom, but I was retrieved just fine. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened to Ms. Marvel, considering the odd nature of this pregnancy. Although that actually just makes it worse. So you decide, do you prefer she was just sent to a strange room to give birth, or was she going through horrible pain? Either way, it's stupid and just makes the comic worse. Here's hoping we never look back at this again.

David Dauz said...

Carol Danvers was the superhero that got me hooked on comics, and she is still my favorite to this day. When I decided to become a Comic Book Guy last year, I picked up Captain Marvel #9 just because I liked the cover. I ended up being blown away by a driven, determined woman who punches dinosaurs, cares for her friends, and is always trying to push herself to go further and go bigger (sometimes to her own detriment, as you may see in 'The Enemy Within', and as has been hinted to happen in the current storyline). In my book, Carol Danvers is everything I could ever want in a superhero.

So as you can imagine, watching this video just ripped my heart out. This is something that will always be a part of Carol Danvers's history, and it is worse than I ever imagined. I was prepared for mind control rape. I was prepared for the out-of-nowhere Stockholm ending. But I wasn't prepared for the book to treat this like a stupid sitcom and for Carol to barely even factor into the present-day plot. Was she even involved in that big fight scene in the backyard? I know I was personally disappointed that she didn't punch that dinosaur like when I first met her, but did she do anything back there? Or did she just refuse to protect the world, the space-time continuum, and her spawn-child?

This physically hurt me to watch. At least she was able to come back in a later issue and shout down her teammates. She slapped Thor. Keep being badass, Carol. (And I hope you find something to like about her too, Linkara.)

monica said...

Never thought I'd hear the phrase "...To live a happy life with her rapist-husband-son in limbo..." Today, but there you go. Man I was both horrified yet laughing, manically because it caused me to go insane for a bit, at the sheer stupidity and ridiculousness of this issue. Good god...

Rob S said...

I don'r know which is worse... this, or Action Comics 592-593... *shudder*

... nice Gamera vs. Guiron reference, though.

shikome kido mi said...

I'd say something about the comic, but you have it covered. It's just a merrigoround of ick that reminds me of that weird superman and big barda comic you reviewed. Did they come out around the same time? Maybe there was something in the water those years.

Drunkenaxe: Joss Whedon was onboard for Aliens: Resurrection. The fact you think Avengers is his worst movie amuses me.

Besides, not the best it could be can still be very good. And just because it wasn't the way he wanted it doesn't mean he wasn't able to make something of it. Sure, it had some flaws but Avengers was a good movie overall.

shikome kido mi said...

Not sure my first comment attempt got through, retrying.

This reminds me uncomfortably of that weird Superman and Big Barda piece of garbage you did, Linkara? If so there must have been something really wrong in the comics industry during the 80s.

Allan Olley said...

Somehow I can't take this comic seriously enough to get mad at it, it just has no reality and no bite to me. However as each new revelation unfolded I did find the ideas ever more bizarre, ill conceived, and vaguely repellent.

It was good that Claremont raked it over the coals, but in response to someone above editors are probably wise to minimize the amount of sniping one writer can take at another lest the company's publications devolve into public infighting. It sounds like this story occurred because of some weird confluence of too many cooks spoiling the brew, editorial mandates and possibly deadlines leading to "well we have to publish something" mentality, if everyone involved disowns it then presumably they did'nt care if Claremont takes it to task in the annual.

Personally the character I want to see in the Marvel movie verse is sidekick to Hulk, two Captain Marvel's, ROM the Spaceknight, and Captain America, Rick Jones (since he is my favourite character, although I have no kept up on his recent stint as A-Bomb in the Hulk comics), he was mentioned in the Hulk movie as a known associate of Bruce Banner, but its hard to see how he would fit in and he can be a bit of a fifth wheel so I can't really say he should be stuck in anywere. On the plus side the Hulk and the Agents of SMASH cartoon has him voiced by Seth Green, who is sufficiently cool that I am placated for now.

Feel free to call the Big Red Cheese (the original Fawcett/DC Captain Marvel) Captain Marvel and every other Captain Marvel, which would include Mar-vell, Monica Rambeau (aka Photon), Genis-Vell (aka Legacy, aka Photon!!), Phyla-Vell (aka Quasar [there is at least one other Quasar], aka Martyr) and Carol Danvers ( aka Ms. Marvel, aka Binary, aka Warbird), plus I am guessing a least one more DC character (that's not counting Captain Marvel Jr.). There are of course a few other characters in Marvel/DC with Marvel in their name, such as Marvel Girl (Jean Grey).

Personally I blame DC for buying the big red cheese from Fawcett and then not using him. I've met several men who remember the original Fawcett Captain Marvel so fondly that I suspect they could have made some serious money if they swallowed their pride sooner (and it would have preempted Marvel use of the name).

When I pointed out to a friend that Genis had stolen Monica Rambeau's superhero name twice (she was Captain Marvel until Genis got his own miniseries, and she was Photon until he appeared in Thunderbolts after his series was canceled), my friend suggested that she should change her name to Dr. Light (in honor of the two DC characters with that name and her light based power set).

Anyway confusions around super hero names abound.

Anonymous said...

"Amazingly enough, 4chan hates Avengers Arena."

truly, some things are way too vile and evil even for the internet's wretched hive of scum and villainy

N. said...

Two weeks of rape in a row. I will at least applaud Lewis for decrying this as suits it and for putting this trash on display to discredit and depress the sales of these writers -- who, by their own admission through this are guilty of hate crimes against womyn. This work should serve as a prime example of why romance in fiction is inherently an act of misogyny and hate.

Fictional characters cannot give consent. In a work like this, they are forcibly put on display and made to consent to whatever the writers decide will become of them. However, to the reader, they are accepting of their role and make decisions in-character. Certainly this piece, but indeed, all fictional romance is ultimately rape.

Take, for example, Casablanca, the classic film where capitalism defeats fascism. Ingrid Bergman, playing Ilsa, is forced to "fall in love" against her better judgement. (Additionally, this piece fails Bechdel and Mako Mori as all plots rely on the "powerful man" in Bogart's Rick.)

It is my hope that eventually the free market will reject works like this and purchase only those works which forward homoromantic asexual relationships and voluntary human extinction of those individuals which do not generate wealth.

Anonymous said...

You know I can think it would have been better, if this comic was the Avengers reminiscing about the teams history as Ms Marvel was having the child and all the stupid stuff happened next issue. It would have worked as a millstone. Of course all this would still be awful.

Ozaline said...

I read the annual via a collection of first appearances by different X-men, so I knew this would be horrible going in and what it would entail but I didn't realize how horrible.

I figured the mind control part had been a ret-con in the annual just to provide a reason to bring back Ms. Marvel... I'm rather shocked it's in the original story.

For shame, Marvel.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

You should do your Kennedy Impression more often. It scares me how similar it sounds. Speaking as a C Section baby, pregnancy can count in the surgery chamber depending on the details. Like say Prometheus. There is no comic called "What the hell there were thinking?"....yet, but there are plenty of the WTF Did I Just Watch.
Laser Torch? At least the kid didn't ask for a Laser Bat. He's his own fire.

Not trying to make light of this disgusting crap but I do have this to say "JERRY JERRY JERRY!!!!"

Who else instinctively put their hands up after seeing the bumper?

Great review like always I think I am gonna be sick. No amount of Gravol would cure this one.

Ceara Ciar said...

Thank you Lewis, just thank you for shedding light on this horrible horrible comic.

サトルイアン said...

I LOVE this review. Especially the stinger at the end where you give a canon explanation as to why your pre-"Demon in a Bottle" Iron Man wasn't Drunk Tony: if it was all his drunken hallucination then he probably imagined himself being perfectly sober and in control. ~~ Ian Suttle ~~

RobHagen said...

Ah, Avengers #200. A steaming pile of bad writing and wasted art.

As for Chris Claremont, while he did deal with the ramifications of this issue in the Annual, in that same comic, he depowered and mind wiped Ms. Marvel. So really, one step forward and two steps back....

Bill said...

I had to watch this twice to make certain that I wasn't drunk when I watched it the first time.

This whole thing smacks of a desperation move by the editors and writers when they realized that Avengers #200 was coming up and they had done nothing in the previous issues to set anything up. And, of course, at that time anniversary issues HAD to be event issues(births, weddings, deaths, etc.), so they decided to give their fans a birth, only none of their female characters were pregnant. So they presented their readers with hell baby. Thanks, guys.

I have to laugh at Jim Shooter's denying any memory of this. I think we can all give George Perez a pass on this, his involvement strikes me as being defined as "contractually obligated," and soon after this he and Marv Wolfman would be providing much stronger female characterizations in the pages of The New Teen Titans. And while David Michelenie provided a suitably awful script, one has to remember that Shooter was trained in the comics industry by the legendary/infamous Mort Weisinger, who essentially defined the term "micromanagement" in the comics industry. Don't get me wrong, Jim Shooter was one of my childhood writing heroes, as his second run on Legion of Super-Heroes was one of the series that hooked me on comics when I was a child. But as an editor, Shooter has no problems claiming credit for his (disputed) contribution to the end of the Dark Phoenix saga or the Demon in a Bottle storyline but somehow cannot recall having anything to do creatively with this trash? C'mon, the whole thing is a bad Silver Age plotline on steroids, with "happy endings" glossing over horrible events while oblivious comrades look on and make bad puns. In other words, it's the kind of gimmicky plot one would expect from someone trained in the silver age comics industry, and it's the kind of plot that Shooter (as editor-in-chief and resident micro-manager)would probably have no problem foisting on someone (remember, Shooter was also the author of perhaps the worst Hulk story ever written, one that may be nearly as offensive as this).

Leor said...

I don't think I can add much to what you said Lewis; "Avengers #200" was awful. On the other hand, both Chris Claremont and Kurt Busiek told some pretty powerful stories by referencing Marcus' abuse of Carol. In Busiek and George Perez' run on "Avengers" a different incarnation of Marcus showed up, one who was Kang's son, not Immortus', and Carol kinda flipped out upon seeing the guy.

Regarding Marcus' flimsy excuse for not telling the Avengers what was going on... really? The Avengers wouldn't believe the son of one of their oldest enemies? That's the excuse? This team consisted of four former supervillains (The Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, The Vision and Wonder Man) and three children of supervillains (once again The Scarlet Witch, the daughter of Magneto, and The Vision and Jocasta, the "children" of Ultron). If there is any team of superheroes in comic book history willing to give villains the benefit of the doubt, it is the Avengers. The only teams with more former supervillains are the X-Men and the Thunderbolts! All Marcus needed to do was explain his situation, that he was Immortus' son, and that since Immortus was gone he desired to live on Earth. Marcus could have even appealed to their sense of responsibility, by pointing out that Immortus' disappearance was the result of a battle he had with the Avengers (and possibly Kang the Conqueror). Maybe they'd even ask Reed Richards to help the tyke out.

But that's not the direction this story took, and it's a sign of incredibly bad writing. Considering this was a milestone issue, why wouldn't the writers and editors want to highlight the fact that the Avengers are heroes who give second chances. All they had to do was remove the references to Marcus date-raping Ms. Marvel, have him show an interest in helping people to undo the harm Rama Tut, Kang the Conqueror and Immortus have caused, and the Avengers might have not only helped him, they might have asked him to join the team. Instead we got this dreck. Yeah.

Anonymous said...

Sadly Brian Michael Bendis (AKA the guy who has great ideas, but only mediocre execution at best, and some truly cringe-worthy dialogue) just couldn't leave this story alone and had to turn it into a joke:

Anonymous said...

...Wow. Just... wow. I had heard about this comic's horrible reputation before, and I thought the horrible rape implications were the worst of it... well, no, that is pretty much the worst part (that and this apparently being considered a "happy" ending for Ms. Marvel), but I didn't realize just how incredibly, utterly badly handled the whole thing was. Between the Avengers acting in a way no one on the face of the planet would act in this situation, Marcus's plan being as stupid as it was immoral, and the idea of treating Marcus as both Carol's son and lover... just... just wow.

I think I'll join you with the drunk Tony Stark head canon, though in my version, Tony immediately says, "You know what? I've had too damn much."

Raithnor said...

TNG's "The Child" had the excuse of a possible writers strike. So they recycled story ideas from Star Trek: Phase II.

This... did not have that excuse.

DMaster said...

To David Dauz: I feel your pain, sir. Kaine was my entry into the Marvel universe in the pages of Scarlet Spider, but Captain Marvel is my favorite character within, and it came to be so in the same series as you. I had heard of this whole unfortunate affair, rape, acquiescence and "happily ever after" even before I picked up issue 1 of that series, yet this review still wounded me grievously. I will not be coming back to it again any time soon.

To N.: ...fictional romance, even if it's nothing more than exchanging longing looks between two consenting adults who like each automatically rape. You are a MARVEL (no pun intended) of a straw feminist, my good whatever-you-are. You are the rare example of a person that can actually make on legitimately stop and think, if only for a second "You know, maybe that Men's Rights Activist on Reddit had a point." YOU ARE THAT INSANE.

Arcapello said...

Another great review.

I wonder, how much was the most expensive bad comic you have ever had to but in order to subsequently tell everybody how much it sucks to own?

Just wondering,

All the best.

Craig said...

N, did you seriously say that every love story in every fictional medium is rape because "fictional characters can't give consent?"

Please PLEASE tell me you're a troll and don't actually believe that bilge.

Anonymous said...

To D-Master and Craig: I'm thinking N is a troll.

I can accept the idea that someone could have such an off the rails view of feminism. But the combination of such radical feminism *and* support of the death of all non-wage earners like some meth tweaking Randroid, just seems too unlikely.

N. said...

DMaster. I am NOT a "what." You have no right to call be this and prove your willful ignorance and commitment to patriarchy in doing so. This is triggering and violating of my personal sovereignty and I DO NOT consent to this sort of language being applied to my person.

Fictional romance encourages appropriation of societal norms which protract objectification, such as that which you apply to me. Point to as many "positive examples" as you like but this sort of encouragement feeds into misogynist social norms. Only homoerotic asexuality narratives have the capacity to break down these mores. It is not just that we encourage violence through "romance" narratives, but that we have a societal obligation to deconstruct all culture that comes before.

Craig. I absolutely believe in the cause of equality for all peoples. It may at times be difficult to understand the need for total cultural deconstruction, especially if you (and I do not suggest that you do or do not) com from a privileged position. I would encourage you to adopt several simple steps. Always ask an individual for their preferred pronouns. Do this at each meeting, no one should feel obligated to be forced into an identity. Additionally, I encourage you to embrace radical libertarianism. government reinforces societal bigotry and, through Randian Anarcho Capitalism, we can free ourselves.

Rue Ryuzaki said...

Ughh. Now I know why I was so sick today. Learning that this garbage of a comic exits.

Hilarious threatening us with the magic gun.

Thank you for the X-men clip btw.

doug.glassman said...

@Tracey: I didn't mean that I'm slut-shaming Power Girl; I meant that the comic itself was doing the slut-shaming, portraying her as a bad person for not knowing who the father of her child was.

Anonymous said...

Craig, I can't claim to know for sure, but I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is: Yes, N is a troll. I base this on the fact that a person who claims to be firmly against "misogynist social norms" took one look at Avengers #200 and, instead of taking the opportunity to tear into the obvious, easy target, derailed their argument into attacking fictional romance in general and, as an example, attacked one of the most well-regarded movies of all time. And in N's first comment for last week's Nova Girls comic, N decided that instead of attacking the sexist attitude of the book and its creator, it made far more sense to start talking politics, and with rather extremist views at that. I don't claim to know N's motives, but at this point, N strikes me as someone just saying things that are obviously outrageous for attention; I suggest just ignoring whatever N has to say from now on.

Katherine said...

Oh, man, THIS comic. I was wondering if this infamous story was ever going to show up here. This story could’ve inspired “Breaking Dawn,” the fourth Twilight book.

a) Bella and Carol wind up suddenly pregnant and have all the signs of an eight-month pregnancy in a matter of weeks.

b) The babies (Renesmee and Marcus) have adult intelligence at birth, age rapidly, and their aging slows down when it’s convenient.

c) Bella and the Avengers have completely unrealistic reactions to the pregnancies. Despite the pregnancies being highly abnormal and the fetuses possibly being, for all they know, demon abominations, they show no sign of concern and happily welcome the pregnancies as if everything will just magically work out in the end, which they have no way of knowing. The people who do have realistic reactions to the whole thing (Carol in this case and Jacob in “Breaking Dawn”) are condescendingly patted on the head and assured that everything’s going to be fine.

d) The births themselves are highly unrealistic. Bella’s spine is broken, she vomits up a fountain of blood, the pregnancy advances at an accelerated rate, and yet she doesn’t die halfway through the pregnancy. Marcus’ birth is the opposite, since, as was noted, there’s no pain or blood at all. Nope, Marcus might as well have been delivered by storks.

e) Nobody cares about how the expecting mothers feel. None of the Avengers care that Carol is horrified and Edward doesn’t care that Bella wants to give birth to his child, since he's planning to abort it anyway.

f) The contrived “romances” that were slapped together without any effort. Carol doesn’t want anything to do with her baby, but then, through the contrivance of the plot, she “falls in love" with Marcus. Jacob wanted to kill Renesmee, but then, through the contrivance of the plot, he “falls in love" with her.

g) Neither Stephenie Meyer nor any of the writers of this comic cared about how the lazy explanations for the romances made the characters look, because all they cared about was pairing them off and getting rid of them. Meyer didn’t care that imprinting was essentially brainwashing and that Jacob’s imprinting on Renesmee made him look like a pedophile. All she cared about was shooing Jacob offstage and getting the romance over with. The writers here didn’t care that Immortus’ machines were essentially brainwashing and that Marcus using them made him look like a rapist. All they cared about was shooing Carol offstage and getting the romance over with.

I highly doubt that Stephenie Meyer ever read this comic, but still, kind of creepy.

As for Marcus’s whole convoluted and ridiculous scheme of being reborn on earth...jeez. Sounds like someone with an Oedipus complex wants to have their cake and eat it too. “Oh, she’s not my ACTUAL mom, since my mother was a totally different person! ...Who just so happened to look exactly like Carol. But okay, it’s not technically incest, even though she gave birth to me, so...she still could be considered my mother. Look, it’s NOT incest, okay! It’s perfectly wholesome and romantic and there’s nothing off about me alternating between calling her Carol and calling her Mother, so there!”

DMaster said...

To N.: ...first time I've talked to you directly, this is now the last. I said "whatever you are" because I have no idea what you are. If you are legitimate in your...WEIRD beliefs, you could still be f/m/QUILTBAG/I don't know. If you're just a specialized troll...same boat!

And..."only homoerotic asexuality"...are you suggesting that "Boy's Love" stories are the ONLY acceptable forms of portraying romance? You are more messed-up than Sinfest's Sisterhood!

Ming said...

I always knew it was only a matter of time before Linkara gets a hold of this comic.

This was beyond any doubt one of the worst Avengers comics ever made. It's bad enough that the Avengers were acting like idiots because the plot demanded them to. It's bad enough that this ruined Ms. Marvel with this idiotic and offensive plot that would disgust even those used to incest and pregnancy erotica. It's bad enough that this thing that called itself Ms. Marvel's son and lover used mind control to accomplish its goals.

But the worst part was the unfortunate, horrifying, and downright misogynistic implications from this ending. The Avengers just let Carol go with the thing that used mind control and basically raped her just so it could be born -- it's as if he was controlling the Avengers' minds with his mere presence! It's like they're trying to tell girls that they should marry men no matter how despicable they turn out to be because they'll love you no matter what.

How could Marvel let this thing see print? How could these writers come up with the story in the first place? Did they feel they wrote too many good comics and wanted to see if they could come up with the most hated comic ever?

What Marvel Comics has done to Ms. Marvel is inexcusable. However, if Avengers Annual 10 has taught us anything, it is this: something good has to come out of the most horrible stories ever.

Anyway, this is one of the best AT4W episodes of the year.

Now that you have finished with this atrocity, will you eventually get to Avengers: The Crossing?

Nevermore said...

Couple of things:

Apparently the story wasn't immediately despised by everyone at the time. Some fans were more like "bleh, boring romance story", and those who actually complained about the RAPE aspect were treated as weirdos. It wasn't until later that the general sentiment that Avengers #200 wasn't just dull, but actually horrible, settled in.

At least that's what I'm getting from this account:
(Note: Three pages)

The entire "accelerated pregnancy" trope is a bad cliché that usually comes out of male writers who want to get it over with quickly. To me, one of the annoying side aspects is the "super-fast growing child learning to speak in record time" idiocy. Language doesn't form itself naturally, you have to LEARN it. If you just grow up rapidly, you don't magically became capable of speech. You'd need to learn to speak rapidly, too.

Lastly, Kurt Busiek later addressed this story during his Avengers run where the Avengers meet another version of Marcus, this time the son of Kang (who himself is an alternate version of Immortus). Upon realizing who he is (or rather, who he is an alternate version of), Carol Danvers ("Warbird" at the time) is grossed out. He comes across as a different person than his namesake, but the memories of the original Marcus still haunt Carol.

Chris Evans said...

Linkara, much respect to you for 1) subjecting yourself to this piece of trash in the first place, and 2) giving it the thrashing that it oh-so-deeply deserves.

Having a woman, not to mention a key female superhero and role-model such as Carol Danvers, be brainwashed and raped by a man who is technically also her son, and then she develops feelings of love towards him? *shudder* Never as a comic story made me feel as disgusted as this one has.

Arcapello said...

I can imagine his Grandfather's subtle manipulation. "Does this Chloroform spell funny to you?" *thud*
Fuck this Comic.

trent bowie said...

Linkara, burning is too good for Avengers #200. The story is just too horrific and offensive to be forgotten.

Instead, I have an idea. How about selling that copy you have on eBay? The winning bid would then have the privilege of of destroying that comic in any manner they choose with accompanying video. And the best part? The money earned would then be donated to, a website dedicated to helping victims of sexual assault. Would you be interested in doing something like that?

Felix Brunschede said...

That was over 500 kinds of wrong and horrible. D:

Max said...

Actually, I thought of ONE WAY to make this whole comic worse.

If Frank Miller wrote it. Vomit bag's to your left, kiddies.

Gary Hall said...

I am surprised they didn't fight loki or someone like that to harken back to the past of the avengers. This story is troubling, to the Deanna Troi comparisons I agree but at least in that no sexual contact was had and at least it was about a curious lifeform that wanted to know about us so chose to be born and live. In this every part of it makes me want to repell in disgust. Firstly why didn't Marcus tell the avengers about his plight and then they could help him without th whole convulted plot. Ssecondly Ms Marvel being raped and yes it was raped makes me despressed I put this akin to where wasp was eaten in ultimatium, as this is a massive wtf happened. Look mms marvel is a strong character and I do not chose to beleive she let Marcus and his weird hairstyle have her, she would fight mind ctornjl so they messed with her character as I believe she can fight some mind control.

Anonymous said...

I swear I've read this issue, but I can't find a copy of it in my collection, and I don't think I borrowed it. Yes, I was offended by the Avengers' attitude to Carol's rape at the time. I'd never heard everyone else's reaction.

Jocasta is kind of Ultron's daughter (he built her to be his wife. Which is not as squicky as this issue). Considering the upcoming Avengers movie, I thought it should be brought up.
Sometimes I pronounce her name 'Yocasta', sometimes the way you did. I don't know what's right.

Hey! Most of the good stuff waf from the 80's! I associate rape and incest more with the fiction of now than back then. Game of Thrones anybody? Alan Moore?

"Ch-Change"? Maybe Marcus was just trying to sing David Bowie.

Anonymous March 31: Unlikely to be a Trek reference: I believe Linkara said this was a 1980 issue, and TWOK (Carol Marcus's first appearance) was 1982.

Sijo: Her name was just Binary, not Binary star. For the record.

Anonymous April 1 1:11: "It would have worked as a millstone."
Actually, it's a great millstone.

So, now Marcus is Kang's son, not Immortus's son? But Kang IS immortus... Now I've gone crosseyed.

~ Mik

Doresh said...

This story... is certainly something. Did an alien that didn't grasp the concept of human reproduction write this o_O ?

Seriously, this is weirder than Bat-Baby and more disturbing than that one comic where Superman and Batman watch a bunch of extradimensional worms having an orgy and then dying.

(Yes, that really happened. And no, I don't know why I brought up Batman twice. Must be the bees - my god.)

Felix Brunschede said...

Wait a minute... This is the first comic featuring Vision on this show, isn't it? God damnit, my 3rd favourite Marvel character doesn't get enough credit as it is and now this... Well, reading the Star Trek and Legion of Superheroes crossover should give me enough weirdly awesome to forget this krap.

Adam said...

Before I go into my comment, I know this is a very late post. I just watched the video tonight after being kept busy with real life issues. I almost wanted to watch this review along with Red Hood and the Outlaws #1 but I decided not to. I think its best not to do two bad comics in a row so not to cause any mental damage.

And, now, onto the comment....


Oh, sweet Jesus Herald Christ on a gas-powered pogo stick! This is the lowest of the fucking low points for the Avengers and Carol Danvers. I can appreciate Jim Shooter taking most of the blame for this book, but it does not excuse any of the people involved in the creation of this abomination. Someone should have stood up and said something before this book went to print.

Ultimately, all four men responsible for Avengers #200 need to be punished for this... like having a large line of fans and creators whack them in the ass with a cricket bat. And Chris Claremont gets to be the first one to do the honors.

And, yet, this, along with Mar-ville and a few other turds, have yet to be burned. Are you ever gonna get around to that, Lewis, or are you planning something big for these awful comics? A flamethrower, perhaps?

Kyle Sember said...

I have been reading all the Avengers comics from the beginning in preparation for Avengers 2. When I read this issue my first thought was "Wow. Is Linkara aware of this?"
Now, I'm not easily offended. I where a Cannibal Holocaust t shirt for crying out loud. But this? Yeah, this was gross. Thankfully, shortly after this Wasp was given a lot more attention in the series and became a stronger female character. She divorced her abusive husband, became more confident in herself, and even became the team leader. I think all of that may have been an attempt to make up for the sexist treatment of Ms. Marvel. I loved Ms. Marvel, and to see her leave the team like this was a joke.
Anyway, another great funny review. Thank you.

Night4345 said...

The Kree would impregnate Carol because the entire species can't evolve. They must experiment on other races and combine characteristics to make better Kree. That's the whole reason the Inhumans exist in first place.

Troy Troodon said...

If I could just say something about what the Wasp/Ms.Marvel bit, Wasp didn't really intend to offend Carol like that as she didn't know what happened.

So as stupid thing for Wasp to say to Ms. Marvel, I can forgive her for that since she didn't know how she actually became pregnent.