Monday, December 7, 2009

The Dark Knight Strikes Again Part 1


Behold the book that makes the political commentary in Amazons Attack seem nuanced!



191 comments:

Derek @ AudibleUnderwear said...

I tried so hard...SO very hard to not hate this when I first read it. Talk about a letdown.

Anonymous said...

Not hating this book is impossible, unless your just as bat-shit insane as miller.

Mags said...

I just watched this on blip. Yeah I know, I'm a naughty girl for not watching it on TGWTG.com... it was accidental I swear!

Anway, great episode and my god, that artwork was lazy. And I thought I was cheap using photoshop's effects. Also, I now know why your twitter page said you were addicted carameldansen. I hope the guys at TGWTG.com don't tease you too much about that. XD

And that clip after the credits made me smile. I know you get this sort of compliment all the time, but you have a great singing voice.

Tyrgermanic said...

...it wasnt THAT bad compared to other dc at the time,it just wasnt what it was supposed to be at all.

(also when it came out miller was still revered as a god by many)

Queen Anthai said...

Yahtzee reference FTW! XD

Stressfactor said...

This was also a case of Miller treating the Silver and Bronze Ages as his personal prostitutes. His depiction of Barry Allen, the Atom and then, as some Internet comic book fans much better versed than I, pointed out at the time -- "President Rickard"? Yeah, that's actually supposed to be 'Prez' -- a brief-lived comic from the early 1970's in which a teenager named Prez Rickard (and yes, his first name really was supposed to be Prez) manages to become president thanks to the lowering of the eligability age to become president. He then runs around and has adventures (as opposed to actually, you know, leading the country) with his sidekick -- a Native American named Eagle Free.

Seriously, I did NOT make any of that up. And this was created by Joe Simon of "Captain America" fame.

Frank Miller, Ladies and Gentleman, forcibly having his way with the Silver and Bronze Ages.

Alex Stritar said...

Is it me, or did the Question go Super Sayian in one panel?

Catgirl? Frank Miller would of known about the otaku implications of that monicure, right?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Catgirl? Frank Miller would of known about the otaku implications of that monicure, right?"

In 2001? Probably not.

"Seriously, I did NOT make any of that up. And this was created by Joe Simon of "Captain America" fame."

Yep, I'm well aware of Prez. Neil Gaiman did an awesome story of him in Sandman.

twincityhacker said...

Brainy Specs! I'm not sure if they actually count when you actually need the glasses to see, but still.

SomethingGerman said...

Honestly I like it when you sing. The ending with I need a hero sung by you sounded great and it's not in any case that I listen to crap music, I enjoy the Beatles and Akira Yamaoka like any other sane person would so.

So yeah, great review, love the series, continue singing :D

D. R. McLeod said...

Hmm... I had to go and check but actually the Naked News started online in 1999, and this comic was in 2001. And knowing Mr. Miller he probably knew all about it...

...and then used it as an excuse to draw naked girls.

James said...

Lewis, this is definitely gonna go down as one of your best reviews. And I'm amazed at the restrained you showed by donning the "brainy specs". You could've torn into how horrible this was with unhindered rage, but a brainy beatdown is always enjoyed.

D. R. McLeod said...

...um... not that I'm in any way familiar with such a website, a ha ... a ha ha...

...please don't tell...

Green Ninja said...

Damn it Lewis! If you don't want to make another episode about it, stop teasing us with the beginning. ^^

I actually read this just a few months back. It starts out weird and goes downhill faster than Kirby's rock-attack. It's hard to believe that this came out in 2001.

Nice to know you're a fan of Yatzhee too. Then again, who isn't :D

So, the question remains: what's next on Millertime? I didn't notice anything in the 2010 trailer.

Anonymous said...

Sing again, it's funny (and you're not that bad)!

Kimarous said...

*tears of joy*

You've done it, Linkara. With the Zero Punctuation reference today, the YGOTAS reference last week, and the numerous crossovers with the TGWTG team, you have fully encapsulated my love of the internet.

razieldumas said...

Linkara, I love the work you do. I honestly do. I look forward to your segments every week, and more often than not, I really agree with you.

However, you're dead wrong about Ditko's Question. Boring, trite and full of strawmen and self-insert wish fulfillment. The only thing worse than his Question was Mr. A.

Denny O'Neil saved a character that wouldn't otherwise be worth a toss.

But yes. Miller should never ever EVER write Superman. I don't think the man has ever read an actual story about Big Blue in his life.

cjhitchcock said...

I've actually read this one and I remember liking it at the time, but I do agree with what you're saying. Interested in seeing what else you say about the comic.

Also loved the Red Dwarf reference at the end of the credits.

Azerth said...

I really hate Carrie in The Dark Knight Returns

Rokee said...

I've to say: TDKR is one of my all-time favorite comicbooks. Not only for the reason, that it made me wanna get into Batman comics as an adult, but also because it was a great and awesome story for what it was.

It was a milestone and should've been kept untouched.

But the insane Miller-Prime from the Sin City universe felt, it would be better to ruin the work of his equivalent from '85.

Regards Oliver Quinn: He had only one arm in TDKR, but in this he got two. Is it some kind of cyber-netic replacement or just another hole in the plot?

Oh and one more thing: What's a Yahtzee anyway?

leikomgwtfbbq said...

1) Shark-repellant bat-spray! XD That will never fail to make me laugh.

2) I didn't like Dark Knight Returns, but I can see why other people liked it. At any rate, it's scads better than Strikes Again. D:

3) Caramelldansen! In English!

4) Two pairs of glasses. You must be extra-brainy, sir. XD

5) OH GOD. NOT PREZ RICKARD. LEAVE HIM OUT OF THIS, MILLER! *hiss, spit* Prez is awesome and shouldn't be included in crap like this. >:( He's just too sunny and nice and well-meaning. But there's Miller for you. Ruining your favorite comics icons. Granted, Prez isn't an "icon," but... still, he's one of my favorites and shouldn't be morphed into a crappy Bush pastiche. The thing about Prez is that he's supposed to be the idealized, perfect president--a nice guy with extremely good intentions.

6) Urgh, Cat-Girl. I liked Carrie Kelly as she was, honestly. She was the only thing I honestly liked about DKR. But Cat-Girl is just EPIC FAIL all around.

7) Yeah, Ray Palmer turning into an aspirin size and getting swallowed is pretty gross.

8) Yech! I'm a terrible costume designer, myself, but that's pretty ugly, cheetah catsuit and ugly big shoes like that. D:

9) Agh! Torgo syndrome again!

10) Eww. Because that's what we need. People puking up other people.

11) I loved the Yahtzee reference. XD

12) Miller's sexism will never stop pissing me off ever. It's so damn disgusting.

13) "Whoopty-dumbass!" is my new favorite phrase.

14) Question! The only good thing to come out of objectivism. (Well, the Question, Rorschach, and Bioshock. That's it, though.)

15) You have the best Batman voice ever. Well, second-best, after Kevin Conroy. But it's still pretty great. X3

16) ...Creepy mumbling about Carrie. D: Urgh. Stop making Batman creepy like that, Miller!

17) Flash on a hamster-wheel. Oooooookay. Couldn't he just run away from people trying to catch him?

18) Flash in black, short sleeves and biker shorts. DO NOT WANT. The silly red outfit is loads cooler.

19) Superman sounds like the Doom Marine in this one. I dunno whether to LOL or just go >:( and growl ill-temperedly.

20) WTF Super-telepathy? Is this the Silver Age now?

21) Swirly, brightly-colored photoshop backgrounds make my head hurt. URGH.

22) The Amazons are an enormous, proud army of super-warriors. Why the hell would they ever bend over backward for Lex bloody Luthor, even if there was some stupid blackmail scheme? What's there to blackmail about the Amazons anyway?

23) CARAMELL-NINJA-STYLE-DANSEN. :D

24) Explosives? They looked like gray poached eggs.

25) I hate it when writers sacrifice other characters just to make their "favorites" look good and badass. It CAN be done so that all of the characters look equally decent, you know. D:<

26) I wanna watch some Red Dwarf now. X3 I haven't seen it in ages, but man, that was a cool show.

27) Why not? I like your singing. :D

Snapper Carr said...

I just can't STAND IT when Frank Miller writes Superman. It's so horribly out of character. Frank Miller is the one who invented batgod syndrome.

Anonymous said...

:D Loved the little Red Dwarf reference at the end. Along with the rest of the review, this made my night.

Aerosmith said...

why weren't you at the drive?

715 said...

there is a nude new program in Canada but it's done more tasefuly as it's just women (and men) doing the news like any new problem, and just happen to strip down midway into it.


Ask for the Question, I personly fine Objectivism utter bullsh*t and found most of Steve Ditko's Charlton Comics just mouthpieces (like all works about Objectivism are, Sword of Truth I'm looking at you) for it and only became the character we know and love thanks to other writers (kinda like Deadpool)

TV's Grady said...

Much like Derek, I was genuinely excited about "DK2" when it was first announced, and then it slowly dawned on me just how friggin' INSANE it is. Really, it was right around then that I seriously started to lose respect for Miller, who I'd once regarded as an infallible comics god.

Alan Gains said...

I'd heard about this comic's reputation before, but this just clinches my desire never to read it again.

Oh, and you have a really nice singing voice, you know that? Just saying.

Dg said...

Dude, that rocked. I love your taste in music and your singing XD <3

Now, as for the miller time, DEAR GOD THAT ART WAS GROSS. Seriously, the panel of Marvel, Wonderwoman and Supes made me want to barf. Dear god, it's bad when Captain Marvel's the only attractive character of the three - Supes looks all 'durr' to me and wtf wonderwoman. Just YUCK.

Dear Barry Allen, PUT ON YOUR PANTS AGAIN D: SERIOUSLY, WE DO NOT NEED TO SEE YOUR LEGS

I gotta say, I'm almost happy this week didn't have a Mechakara moment. He scares the bejesus outta me (also, I keep wondering if it hurts when you touch your face with that fake hand. It's gotta be uncomfortable). I sooooooo am looking forward to the plot being resolved cause it's so epic, but just that theme music for his scenes is enough to give me the jibblies.

The House of C.R.P said...

"Nice to know you're a fan of Yatzhee too. Then again, who isn't :D"

Half the Tv Tropes community?

Yeah, this seems like forced satire. Especially to me after playing No More Heroes, a GOOD example of satire.

I always found the whole word emphasis to be something really annoying when you begin to pay attention to it.

But at least the series can't get worse right?

Right?

Right..?

Well this christmas special should be happy! What christmas special of of series hasn't?

*Doctor Who: The End of Time*

Oh.

Austin said...

I'm not really sure, but is there a bit of a continuity error with the holding the magic gun in that quick scene?...unless you are really Mecha Linkara.

Sieg-sama said...

Awesome review of a truly bad comic...

And you're singing is actually pretty good.

Stacy said...

Ah, DKSA. . .the many ways in which you completely and utterly fail truly staggers the mind. The art is horribly stylized, the dialogue is. . .well. . .it's a Miller comic of the present era so all his tics and cues irk the patient reader with their tedious repetition. And yes, that one scene with Luthor and Brainiac lording it over our heroes. . .let me run it through my handy-dandy Resolvomatic 9000 and see what I can come up with:

-Luthor brags in front of the camera with Brainiac.

-Superman stalls, pinpointing his location with his super-hearing.

-Triangulating their position, Superman leads Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman to Luthor's lair. Cap saves Mary and Kandor while Kal and Diana beat the ugly out of the villainous duo (and given the artwork's quality, that's a whole lotta pummelin' goin' on).

-World is saved, Batman retires to Florida and Carrie Kelly becomes Batwoman and joins the reformed Justice League. THE END.

Much as I love Batman, the idea that Superman is just a flying brick with the brains to match is ludicrous. Superman rules the roost just as much as the masked rodent.

And that's real.

Stac

Mountain King said...

I have to say your right. Miller really did drop the ball with this story.
I can forgive the satire, on the principle that sometimes people won't recognise it, unless they the script is rolled into a point, sprinkled in lemon juice an poked in to their eye (see I can make obscure Red Dwarf quotes too)
I can also forgive the Superman sucks theme. Alright he is one of the strongest and most skilled heroes in DC but lets face it, Bruce is smarter.
Finally I don't mind the use of Captain Marvel, unless you include how he goes out in the story (awful dialogue, contrived death) my real problem with this book is the art.
First of all, as you pointed out, the background is like a three year old has gotten hold of photoshop. Millers style, while great with moody atmospheric pieces, doesn't translate here. If anything it's more like the Adam West batman than the Animated series that was, at least in my opinion, the best translation of comic to screen.
So after the "fail" of the art work can the script save it? No, clichés are all well and good if they help move the plot along. Like short hand for development we don't really need to see. Problem here we need a better reason for Superman to obey Luthor. While it would kill him inside he would never have abandoned his principles and let Lex destroy Kandor

Hello better story! Heck you even pull a Justice Lords and have Bruce as the one hero who is not pushed over the edge into a psychopathic dictator. It would be more in character than what happens.

The entire premise of this story is wrong. The script is akin to torture and the art just bewilders the eye. As much as I would love to see to tear the rest of the graphic novel apart it's just pointless. Much like the book itself

Great review, see you next week

Thomas

Joshua the Anarchist said...

All hail the Question!!!

By-the-by, there actually is an internet news website called "The Naked News" featuring the anchors stripping. But I agree, something like that would never be mainstream.

Blargy said...

Ah, sounds like Superman's been at Warrior University for too long

James Edward Clark said...

Your to kind. This book is a wreck. You need to look no further then the art. The art is nothing but photoshop vomit! Terrible, even by Frank Millers standards.

Also I fell you spent to long dwelling on the whole nude news bit which I think was actually an attempt by Frank to be topical(2001 topical). Not sure you realize this but back in the early 2000's you had a web site called NAKED NEWS. where you had hot female news anchors reading the news as they striped naked before the camera's. The site was rather popular at the time and they even made it into a weekly late night news program. However the novelty soon got old and it got buried under all the millions of other porn sites. I think that's what Frank was referencing there. It's still stupid but there was a reason for it.

But seriously the art is complete SHITE! I don't think you stressed that enough. I own the trade, I have it right in front of me. You talked about the bad photoshop effects for backgrounds but the entire thing is done in the laziest photoshop slap-dash manner I have ever seen. This is why you never get your ex-wife to color your comic people.
There's a reason why Frank Miller doesn't draw comics anymore, He forgot how to draw. He was a pretty decent draftsman when he worked on Daredevil, Dark Knight was a step down art wise I thought, but it worked for book. Sin City was so stylized you couldn't tell the difference. 300 was pretty badly drawn. Ronin was complete shit, BUT THIS ... (pukes on his trade copy of book) Has he drawn anything since this? I hope not

Andrenn said...

I admit DKSA is flawed, no doubt. And you do a good job of pointing out a lot of those flaws, but deep down I still like it. I know it's mostly just because it's Frank Miller and I love most of his stuff, but I generally enjoyed this story. Sure it's nothing compared to DKR, probably my favorite comic story of all time, but it's still an enjoyable story when you look past the annoying satire moments. Also while this art wasn't his best, I still thought it at least looked good.

Good review, Linkara. Looking forward to parts 2 and 3.

Jigglysaint said...

Hahaha, I am NEVER going to get sick of that "Miller Time" joke. I also had a great oppertunity to use the "I am a man!" joke too. I really do rank AT4W up there with the likes of the Nostalgic Crittic, the AVGN, and even Zero Punctuation.

That being said, maybe I should actually READ a comic book now and then. Last series I read were the Sonic The Hedgehog ones, and I stopped before it apparently jumped the shark.

Stacy said...

I will give credit where its due though; Miller's portrayal of Captain Marvel was pretty fun (and the notion that Billy and Cap were in fact separate entities that swapped places upon the utterance of 'SHAZAM!' gels with my own opinion on the subject), and there were some iconic bits of business here with Lara II/Supergirl that I found kind of neat(though the whole Superman/Wonder Woman having a child thing was a bit Kingdom Come for my tastes). Plastic Man was also delightfully crazy.

The Dark Knight Returns is a seminal piece of comics storytelling. DKSA was an attempt at a follow up to the last Batman story, which is paradoxical in that you create a sequel to the end of a saga. It's nice to see how things turned out, but ultimately it's meaningless.

Hm, might explain my feelings on the Star Wars novels of late. . .but that's a whole other can of worms.

Stac

H.T. Black said...

Oh, wow...Of all the things I didn't expect to see, a Zero Punctuation reference was the winner. The willingness to reference other works as well as your ability to get angry at a comic without dropping a single curse officially makes you a god among critics.

Just saying...

ironbite said...

Dude....that was awsome. Though I've never read any of Frank Miller's works mostly due to the fact that when I was into comic books, I was getting them from wholesale clubs, this just makes me not want to read something so....terrible. I've heard that Dark Knight Returns is awsome and from what I've seen, it's true. But this...yeah just totally unnessecary to things. What was wrong with the ending of Dark Knight Returns that made Frank Miller put out...this? At least he didn't try to make Carrie Kelly a WHOREWHOREWHOREWHOREWHORE right?

Ironbite-and no second part next week? I'm sad.

Fireyone said...

Oh Frank, you've become so crazy.

At least it isn't Robocop vs Terminator. I only enjoyed that because I love both those Franchises and it had Robocop spouting one liners against T-800s.

ShadowWing Tronix said...

Jigglesaint, I was off of the Sonic comics for a long time, but I got back into it recently, and it's good again, so it's worth a look.

Zero Punctuation reference. "I Need A Hero". (And I thought you sang that rather well.) And I also got the "Warrior" vibe from Linkara's reading. One of the best reviews yet.

LZ Roy said...

Once again, a most excellent, laugh-out-loud review. I like that you're doing teasers for next week's episode now; that adds a nice touch, and builds anticipation.

Scott Andrew McArthur said...

Sorry man, but I have level with you; this review was terrible.

Now, I should start off by saying that I don't like this book. I don't quite hate it, I can appreciate it for what it's trying to do, but I don't, on any lever, like it.

I just feel like with this review, and most reviews you're done lately, you've kinda lost it. Most jokes fall flat and seeing as I have read most of these book, I feel like you're not picking up on the things that are worthy of scrutiny and just blanket labeling a book as bad. Which this book, in totality, isn't.

It's goofy, it's crass, it's sometimes impossible to look at, but it's fun and it has it's moments of actual value. The scene with Martian Manhunter was down right moving. Elongated Man and Plastic Man were both hilarious characters, and, most importantly, it's great to see all these characters come together to help Batman towards the end. It has a feeling of the Silver Age silliness mixed with Bronze Age roughness.

This is a book for people who can take a step back to look at comics in totality and realise that at one point, most book were this off-the-wall.

I feel you missed the point of this book.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"It's goofy, it's crass, it's sometimes impossible to look at, but it's fun and it has it's moments of actual value. The scene with Martian Manhunter was down right moving. Elongated Man and Plastic Man were both hilarious characters, and, most importantly, it's great to see all these characters come together to help Batman towards the end. It has a feeling of the Silver Age silliness mixed with Bronze Age roughness.

This is a book for people who can take a step back to look at comics in totality and realise that at one point, most book were this off-the-wall.

I feel you missed the point of this book."

This book was not fun. At all. I had no enjoyment whatsoever in reading this. I acknowledged at points where I thought something was being done well, but I did not come out of this thing with a positive experience.

As you say, "it's impossible to look at." Well considering the entire friggin' medium is supposed to be looked at, that's not something in its favor. Its color choice is often actually painful to the eye, like the swiling blue and white background.

When I think "silver-age silliness," I think jet-powered apes and time-travelling hamster balls - not Batman beating up a bloodied Superman while calling him an idiot.

In 2001, I was reading comic books and I don't recall anything being quite like this. And even if it was meant to be some sort of reflection of comic books at the time, I did not pay several dollars to read a parody - I came for Batman being Batman.

James said...

At the end of a comic so horribly drawn and written, there is just one thing I have to ask:

... would anyone like a toasted teacake?

(What? I can make Red Dwarf references too!)

Phoenixpen said...

I love drawing and coloring but I never thought I should judge others on their techniques…but.
Oh my god, this is the ugliest comic I have ever seen. You know maybe if it was in black&white it would like “stylish” or “edgy” but in all-glorious-photoshop-color-rama it is the most putrid thing printed. How was this even released!??! All of the people are colored in motherlicking gradient and the backgrounds are even less thought out! What the hell is the giant fingerprint—what did that mean? The faces are weird and look scribbled on, and the some of the characters look like their ball-joint dolls.
I have serious rage over this. Why on earth on any other planet would ink be wasted on sure bloodcurdling art?! ….I’m holding out for a hero indeed.
(ps. This is AK3000)

LordTirion said...

Wow, talking about a bad comic.

Now I have a question since I haven't heard from someone before, and since I don't really know almost nothing about Captain Marvel maybe I'm wrong but...

Why does Captain Marvel looks old?

I mean, wasn't he supposed to be now (in othe words, not in the dark future) a kid that becomes an adult superhero because of magic? I would have thought that even if he was an old man, magic would put him in a age where he is phisically in optimal conditions.

But then...

How many years old is Billy Batson suppose to be in this comic anyway?

CZ said...

eh, i thought it was ok when i first read it.

i thought since the book was bigger than DK1, I assumed it would take forever to read. To my surprise, there is significantly less text and more goofy drawings. So, yeah, it was just ok.

... Don't remember Lex Luthor being such a porker though.

Mr_Monopoly said...

Loved this review was one of your better ones lately.

Were the brainy specs a reference to Doctor Who?

Also YAY! Yahtzee reference. Did you know he's based in Australia, finally we have an internet celebrity that matches America's.

Although being more of a comic fan than games I favour you but both of you seem to mix a certain sophisticated evaluation with slurs and insults.

You are truely great men.

P.S. I always read the credits. You've topped yourself with that Red Dwarf reference and your singing

kinkorknight said...

This marks the first time I've actually READ something you've reviewed, Linkara.

Call me a late bloomer, but I ended up reading DK2 shortly after reading the Dark Knight Returns a few year ago. The difference between the two was so striking that I almost wondered if Miller had stroked out between comics.

I think this happens sometimes with artists. When they struggle for their art, they tend to do better at their art. If you give them fame and fortune, suddenly their real inclinations come forth and muddy the waters.

Or maybe Miller simply became more polarized about society and forgot about, you know, plot.

Good review.

Anonymous said...

hmmm, i remember not buying this book when it came out based on flicking trough it at the local supermarket and noticing that Batman was barely in it, guess my instincts where right about this book. Oh, and as for the news in the nude thing, i think they actually did something like that in russia some years back, though i will give my big neighbour in the east the benifit of the doubt that it was on some sort of porn channel. Also i agree that the near phatological need some comic book creators have to serve uss upp with softcore porn in their comics is iritaiting as hell, i mean really! if i wanted porn comics i'd either go online or buy a porn comic book, we are adults arnt we? we dont have to sneak about it like 12 year olds.
So please Comic book creators, unless the plot calls for it, keep the porn out of our super hero comics (not that i think you will listen)

Stian

Tanya said...

Great review. Please sing more often. That was very good for acappella and it made a great ending.

Mistwraith said...

The first time I heard from Frank Miller, was while watching Sin City. And I really liked his dystopian vision. I didn't know, that he can do only this one kind of a story. I don't care much about comic characters I have do admit, but I do care about storys and how they are told.

Sadly, Frank Miller can only tell one story. I would like to see a Barbie and Ken story by him.

'Toyland is in trouble. In trouble. A homicidal maniac named Ken has enough from the depravity in his town. The only person he loves is a half naked prostitute called Barbie. After proving the depravity in his town by ripping some innocent people in parts, which makes perfect sense to him, the inevitably corrupt police is chasing him, proving his theorie furthermore. Furthermore.'

Most pages show panels with a half, or completely naked Barbie, the other pages show Ken, killing other peop ... toy ... things. Ellipsis.

I can also imagine a Hello Kitty story by him. By him.

Noyer said...

Hello! Sorry if this runs a bit long, but it is something that I have wanted to address for some time regarding your reviews and your reactions to the political content of certain comics. Also, writing this at two in the morning isn’t helping.

While you openly state in this review that you do not want politics in your super hero escapist entertainment, I really cannot see how you can list that as a flaw of the work. First, all works of fiction are political, no matter how much they may seem to avoid politics. Gender, sex, employment, etc. are all caught up in political discourse, and hence ANY fiction becomes representative of a specific collection of political ideologies, and why entire individuals dedicate their lives to studying these aspects of culture and society.

For example, look at Superman. As a character, he is an alien, an immigrant, and, as the old saying goes, stands for the American way. The character is loaded with political meaning, just from who he is, and his stories become reflective of various ideologies. I highly recommend Umberto Eco's "The Role of the Reader: Explorations in the Semiotics of Texts" for its chapter on comics and Superman in particular, even though I don't agree with everything he states.

Beyond this, while you yourself may not enjoy overt political statements in your fiction, it is not the fault of the creators for including such material in the text. There is no rule book saying superhero fiction cannot discuss politics, and to be critical of a work for including political commentary at all is to attack a text for not considering your personal biases rather than taking the work for what it is. It is like attacking a horror film for being a horror film. It needs to be judged and critiqued for what it is and what it is attempting to do. If it is a failure in those regards that is one thing, but being a failure for simply being what it is does not constitute a criticism.

Now, being critical OF the politics of a work is another issue altogether and works when examining a text. Your own review of "Superman IV" with Doug Walker, which points out the underlining fallacy of its very premise by failing to explore the political implications of Superman's choice. In failing to do so, the politics of the film become an issue and flaw of the film. Now, had the filmmakers actually bothered to explore how the nations reacted to the Man of Steel swiping their nukes and how Superman himself is transformed by these acts, it would be another issue entirely. The politics themselves may have been something to be critical of, but the film could not be criticised for the sheer inclusion of overt political statements.

Hopefully this post will not be taken in offence, as it is only meant as a constructive criticism.

JeanJacket said...

That art... hurts. Especially "Cat-girl." Ow.

I hate it when authors/artists get overly sidetracked by their own political/social views and whatnot. Working your own opinions into your work when they actually fit is fine, but if people want to write an editorial, they should write an editorial. Not draw up a satirical comic, promise us Batman, and show us naked women instead.

That said, great review. (As usual.) Ninja Style Caramell Dansen. XD Nice.

"I will never do that again; I promise."
Aw, why not? You're a good singer and fun to listen to. (Or did you just mean that song? :P )

New Goal: To find a good reason to call someone a handsome but completely inept dickweed.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

Fair enough, Noyer, and that's a thoughtful analysis. I guess it'd probably be more accurate to say that I don't need BAD political commentary.

The thing is, what purpose is served by having a Bush analogue spout off a by-the-book state of the union address and then having Jimmy Olsen critique it at every opportunity? How does it enhance the story?

Or, going back to Amazons Attack, what about the subplot about the women being imprisoned? It does not serve any purpose than make a thinly-veiled parallel to current events... which won't be current anymore as time passes. The situation isn't even resolved - neither in the main book nor in any of the tie-ins. It's simply there because the writers felt the need to take potshots at political figures and it only detracts from the book.

Let's compare this to, say, Watchmen, where the politics were a direct result of the story and of the altered history. And even then, the messages involved in it weren't beaten over the heads of the reader. Star Trek is a great example of this - in many of the best episodes of Trek, there is social commentary, but while a short-term solution is devised to resolve the situation at hand, ultimately the actual moral choices and decisions about what was going on were either carefully spelled out before a decision was made or the audience was left with the chance to make up their own minds about how they felt about things.

Whereas the WORST episodes of Star Trek are the ones where the audience is preached to - the good guys and the bad guys are clearly outlined in such a manner that they have no defense whatsoever for their actions... but the creators still claim it to be social commentary. It's one thing to have clearly defined heroes and villains - it's part of the very idea behind superheroes, but once it tries to claim some deeper message, some truth that we must know, then the rules change about the scrutinizing that must be done, particularly considering the political statements.

MFlorian said...

Aw crud. I watched this before I rushed off to work and now that I'm back, someone beat me to the Captain Marvel mention.

Man, he looks old. o.o

How is that...? You know what, maybe it's better that I don't know.

Miller Time is always fun.

Out of curiousity, part 2 isn't listed on the chart of your upcoming issues. When is part two coming out? Sometime after The Wanderers #5? Or in the double feature?

Kate Holden said...

Urgh, wow, the art... That art is just astonishingly bad. The style and quality is completely inconsistent as though more time is being spent just on panels of things he likes rather than things that are important! The backgrounds are barely there, and this is a Batman comic, I mean, all you really need is some simple shadowy hints of architecture ala Mignola and the odd establishing shot with a bit more detail.
The facial expressions...yeesh, Youngblood's disease and all the women in the comic seem to have the same pouty mouth slightly open expression all the time!
Stuff like this is why artists should never get too wrapped up in the praise they receive and stop trying!

Oh, by the way, I remember very early on you said you haven't reviewed any manga, because you've yet to find a manga bad enough. Well, just a hint: The ultimate shame of UK manga, 'Pwandas' by Dimensional Entertainment, it is truly awful. See if you can find a copy. In their usual bombastic way they've been going on about releasing it in the US. If you do read it, no, not all UK OEL manga is like that! -_-;

Anonymous said...

Two things I've noticed

1.) Green Arrow, for some reason, has both of his arms again.

2.) The deal Superman is referring to is an unspoken one hinted at in TDKR that was basically "You can keep doing this crap as long as its covert.

Also, how come Batman is the only character thats always deconstructed? I mean, what, were supposed to assume that Booster Gold or The Question are any more or less sane than Batman just because their origin stories are different?

PWBOT said...

Actually, when I heard snippets of DKSA, it did sound good. Continuation of DKR, where the future heroes are split into two sides, the ones for the government and the ones that decides to care for the people of the nation (or world in this case?). Its premise seems good enough to warrant a story, but leave it to Miller to ruin what could be great in a competent writer's hands.

So Linkara, I was wondering, in your opinion, do you think that the concept that was in DKSA, could have been saved?

Hound_bound said...

Fantastic review. I checked this out at one point and couldn't get through it, but being a novice to comics, I couldn't really put my finger on what was bothering me about the story and kept me from reading on, and I think you put your finger on all of it.

Poor Batman. It seems for every amazing portrayal he gets, there's another equally cringe-inducing one

warman40k said...

WOW. Just...WOW. Miller is just insane. His comics are a great example of everything that is wrong with comics today.
I like Olbermann and politics. I like Batman. And I LOVE porn. But these great things should not be together. No writer, let along Frank Miller, can make those three things work in any media type ever.
Fuck this comic.

Noyer said...

Thanks for allowing the post to be published!

I cannot speak at all to Amazons Attack, as I never read the story (and, given your review of that story, I don’t think I will be anytime soon). As for TDKSA, while I defend the work a bit more than most, I understand (and agree) that the political commentary Millar uses is about as subtle as a hammer to the head. However, even if it is clumsy, the Olsen/holo-Bush debate does set up the larger context of the world in which the story is set, which given that Miller has set up this world as one in which superheroes are active political figures, does make sense.

As for Trek, you have my total agreement about the series. Though again, there is a perfect series to discuss with regards to its underlying politics to the series as a whole (or rather, franchise): which tends to be patriarchal and colonialist in nature, so taking the more overt political statements of an individual episode and placing it within that context can provide for some fun critical analysis :)

Bill said...

So, Lex Luthor is an alias of Wilson Fisk now? Gained a bit of weight, haven't you Lex?

Stressfactor said...

Oh, yeah, almost forgot... the OTHER only good Holograms were these animated ladies... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmYU4CeuZQ0

Threk said...

Quote: James Edward Clark
Also I fell you spent to long dwelling on the whole nude news bit which I think was actually an attempt by Frank to be topical(2001 topical). Not sure you realize this but back in the early 2000's you had a web site called NAKED NEWS. where you had hot female news anchors reading the news as they striped naked before the camera's. The site was rather popular at the time and they even made it into a weekly late night news program. However the novelty soon got old and it got buried under all the millions of other porn sites.

Ummmm I hate to burst your bubble, but Naked News is still going strong 10 years later.

They recently had an interview with Kevin Smith which I found hilarious(Youtube clip, censored but probably still NSFW and missing the Gretsky, and "Zach and Miri" parts of the interview).

A Tribe Called Helloween said...

are you ever going to do the rest of All- Star Batman? I want to see you have an aneurism over the Joker's Back tatoo

Anonymous said...

a reply to Miswraith: a Frank Miller Hello kitty story would be awsome! :D

Stian

Green Ninja said...

The House of C.R.P.: "But at least the series can't get worse right?

Right?

Right..?"

You're better off, not knowing.
The, onthe other hand, I'd really like to see this continued. :)

Wasn't Frank Millers wife somehow involved in the artwork?

Also: Lewis, I just read the Long Halloween and Dark Victory. Can you point me in the direction the next good batman comic? I already read the Miller stuff.

Harvey said...

Muse, grant me the power to pwn Linkara without coming across as a Miller fanboy or a comic booky geek.

Point #A.) Frank Miller didn't pencil, ink, or letter DK2. In a sketch called "Miller Time" it is only fair to point out what he is and is not responsible for.

Point #B.) In the mainstream D.C.U., Lex Luthor became President of the United States. As Lex Luthor is primary in Superman's rogues gallery, he is the hero responsible. Moreover, Superman and Wonder Woman did continue to work for the Justice League of America under Luthor in both the DCU and the Timmverse. In both the Timmverse and Kingdom Come, Captain Marvel was a tool of the American power structure. If you are going to attack the Millerverse, it is only fair to bring up the point that these ideas were swirling around and freely borrowed from by many writers at D.C.

Point #C.) If you are going to attack Miller's media satire objectively, drop your obvious political inclinations. Fox News employs beauty pagent contestants to do their analysis. Female news anchors, all of them with long legs and usually blond, recite with legs crossed in short skirts without benefit of a newsdesk. It is Entertainment Tonight, ported over to cable news. Watch who Bill O'Reilly (thankfully without falafel) interviews for his skits. Eliminate the F.C.C. and go in the future a few years, and Fox News would basically become nakednews.com.

Point #D) The plot of part one of DK2 was Bruce Wayne using his proxies to rescue members of the old Justice League in order to fight Superman, Lex Luthor, et. al. It was leading up to the final confrontation, which was five pounds of awesome in a three pound bag. If you replace screaming points of emPHASis with speaking through gritted teeth, then the lettering style (if you bother to read it that way) becomes less grating.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

Point A) It says right on the credits page - "WRITTEN AND DRAWN BY FRANK MILLER." While you are correct about the coloring, interviews with Frank Miller stipulated that he wanted the colors to look as they did.

Point B) You are both correct and not correct. In the build up to that, Superman DID consider the ramifications of it and whether or not he should get involved and tell people what he knew of Lex. I.E. it was handled with finesse and looked to what was established about the character to decide what his course of action would be. And even then, Superman only actually followed instructions during the crossover event Our Worlds at War, where the stakes were larger than simply the USA. Plus Lex was not stupid enough to assume he could totally control Superman and make him act as his little monkey.

Furthermore, the JLA is NOT a subsidiary of the US Government and subsequently did NOT follow instructions until, once again, Our Worlds at War. And even then, WONDER WOMAN DID NOT WORK FOR HIM. Wonder Woman, during Luthor's presidency, was the Ambassador of Themyscira, and thus was not subject to Luthor's orders and in fact we saw that she did engage Luthor or the President at the time in matters of standard international politics and it was handled with intelligence about what could actually arise between two nations.

Point C) I have NEVER endorsed Fox News on my show. Please do not put words in my mouth. And while you are correct that my own occasional foray into political comments does lean towards the right wing, I would remind you that I try to do it for comedy and not to make some big message about America or the world at large.

Point D) If that was strictly what the story was about, it may have been more enjoyable. Instead, we have numerous pages of padding confounded with the scenes of heroes being recovered taking far too long to accomplish and subsequently the artwork makes it unpleasant to look at. And as we'll see next issue, by the end of Part 2 we're STILL recovering heroes, which in terms of pacing is, to put it mildly, SLOW AS A SNAIL.


Still, no, you didn't come off as a Miller fanboy, so kudos there. ^_^

Threk said...

My earlier comment was supposed to have a link to Katherine Curtis' interview with Kevin Smith.

The link worked in preview, but doesn't work now. So here is the address --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ZpltwBC-4

Again it's censored for youtube, but still probably NSFW.

James said...

Linkara: You uber-pwned Harvey! Nice job

Matter Eater Lad said...

I have one simple and respectful question Linkara: Do you hate this comic because of poor scripting and artwork? Or do you hate this comic because it doesn't fit in with your political and feminist views?

anthony said...

You should sing again! Fasinating review! BTW in Russia, they have nude anchor women acording to Max-X.

Anonymous said...

The art is horrible and I was miffed that Bats wasn't in it enough, but this wasn't as bad a comic as you make it out to be. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Nitty McNitpicker said...

By the way Lew, you used the term "Icing on the cake" incorrectly near the end of the interview. I believe you meant to say "That's just the tip of the iceberg".

You see, when you say "Icing on the cake"? It implies a second great thing happens in addition to the first.

You can see for yourself at GoEnglish.com

http://www.goenglish.com/IcingOnTheCake.asp

Kanerou said...

Hmm...are you sure that's not Superboy Prime standing in for Superman? :D

Kanerou said...

Sorry for the double-post; I just remembered this as I submitted the other comment. The Linkara-ninja caramelldansen was quite funny. ^.^

Bussani said...

You know, I've never understood the whole emphasizing random words in comics either. I'm glad someone finally pointed it out.

Anonymous said...

I won't give in and act like a pussy just cause i'm a fan of your work, but you really don't understand what your reviewing now. heroes fight crime and crime is HUGE part of politics, thus the cold war could actually have a good role in this comic. did you ask yourself the same thing when you read Watchmen?

Your a great reviewer but You expect all comics to have the most realistic logical generic storyline lewis and the truth is, sorry to burst it 2 you but comics follow their own logic...

but i'll still watch your views AND donate to your site, becuase you've still made a lot of great parodies that made me laugh very hard. :)

Anonymous said...

Your right about the content being bad, BUT I am just saying there are parts when you say things that I feel like IDK, they just seem as if all you wanna do is rant...

Anonymous said...

The whole nude news thing actually sounds like it could work in some twisted Gotham city thing. The way you flip out about these things almost makes it seem your insecure about seeing a chick half naked. in your previous miller time thing, you flipped out about vicki being in her underpants but the truth is Linkara Women do actually chillax in their underwear when they are alone. I've had several women confirm this for me, plus its just human nature to behave this way when your single/alone/chilling in your room, also Have you ever see a Rated R movie? I'm sure plenty show that in it too...

Damn, I'm getting way too personal with this, but I stand beside Frank Miller. Yeah he's no Mark Millar (who actually has more fuck ups than anything IMO) like you make him out to be.

Again, this is not a personal issue, I love your videos, But I'm just saying what I think...

Matthew M Perry said...

I should point out, Lov, that while I generally like this review, your rand about news in the nude fails to take account of the distinct possibility that Miller was referencing the Canadian based Naked News (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_News) which I believed had started to hit it's popularity peak in 2001. It's also quite possible that Miller was referencing Rupert Murdoch owned "The Sun" which, I believe, occasionally did/does feature nudity as a draw for readers (at least in the UK).

JRocket said...

Uh, Anon?

I don't think the issue is that the comic has politics is the issue. It's more the fact that the political "drama" in this little snippet of the Miller-Verse is so badly written and executed AND it is so pervasive (seriously, all this time just for the set up?) that it detracts from the story itself (which is not stellar to begin with).

Watchman is an example of politics in comics done right.

DKSA is an example of politics in comics handled shoddily and it shows in every page.

warman40k said...

[quote]Point C) I have NEVER endorsed Fox News on my show. Please do not put words in my mouth. And while you are correct that my own occasional foray into political comments does lean towards the right wing, I would remind you that I try to do it for comedy and not to make some big message about America or the world at large.[/quote]
As long as your not shoving it in my face or bashing it on my head, I'm cool with it. You have your own views, man.

ShadowWing Tronix said...

"heroes fight crime and crime is HUGE part of politics, thus the cold war could actually have a good role in this comic."

I think the question isn't that it could be done, but if it was done right. Apparently it wasn't in his view.

Vic Sage said...

As far as I'm concerned? Miller deserves a pass on whatever he does for the rest of his career simply based upon his contributions to the comics industry. The name Frank Miller belongs said in the same breath as Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Will Eisner. The man is a legend and his style of writing helped defined an era.

Go ahead and make fun of him all you want Linkara, which I'm sure you will. It just seems obvious in this review that it's not Miller's style you have a problem with, but his politics and that is just lame.

I'm also tired of how you keep harping on scantily clad women appearing in the book. What? Do you have a problem with (nearly) naked women? Does the nude female body intimidate you that much? Seriously, what's your hang-up? I'm a heterosexual guy and I'll be the first to admit (I'm sure quite a few will agree with me on this as well) - I like seeing females in states of undress.

So how about some objective reviewing next time and keeping your politics and feminism under your 'purdy' hat? Are you hear to review comics, or are you hear to espouse upon your own personal views? I started out liking your videos but lately? It's been the same complaints over and over again.

Before I leave? How about we compare yours and Miller accomplishments, shall we?

MILLER:
The Dark Knight Returns
Sin City
Ronin
300
A defining run on Daredevil
Creator of Elektra
6 time Eisner Award winner
4 time Kirby Award winner
3 time Harvey Award winner
Hollywood director and screen-writer

LINKARA:
Internet comic book reviewer for TGWTG

Like it or not? But Miller PWNS you Linkara, and judging from some of these comments I've been reading? Seems like I'm not the only one that feels that way. Looks like made quite a boner with this review.

Stacy said...

'Politics in the middle of things that concern the imagination are like a pistol-shot in the middle of a concert.' - Stendahl.

Stacy said...

I adore the female form as much as any red-blooded heterosexual male, but there's a line between the kind of fun, light cheesecake of--say--Power Girl and this kind of thing. Superheroines are going to be scantily clad, for the most part (though two of my Marvel crushes Meggan and Phoenix II of Excaliber were often fully clothed. Tightly, clothed, yes but still. . .) but Miller has been seen as going on record as wanting the fanboys to 'drool', which speaks a lot about his view of us as well as that of the characters.

And not for nothin', but going after Linkara in terms of his accomplishments against Miller's is tactless. I'm not Frank Miller, Linkara's not Frank Miller, and that's no bad thing. While I give Frank credit for some amazing work (Daredevil, Ronin, TDKR, the early Sin City) lately his mind seems to have jumped the rails. Let me put it to you this way. You want me to put aside all beef and give Frank a free pass on everything he has ever done and will do? I'm afraid that's not possible after having watched The Spirit. That film, much like Frank Miller's current ouvre, is completely wretched.

To not call an artist on his bullshit and give him a free pass simply because of the merits of his older works is an arguement that I'd agree with for someone like Stan Lee (whom we all love and adore but seriously, Ravage 2099?) but Frank Miller is better than this. At least the Miller I came to admire in the '80s was. But that Frank Miller hasn't been around for a while.

Stac

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"As far as I'm concerned? Miller deserves a pass on whatever he does for the rest of his career simply based upon his contributions to the comics industry. The name Frank Miller belongs said in the same breath as Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Will Eisner. The man is a legend and his style of writing helped defined an era."

Just because he's done good stuff in the past does not make him immune from criticism in the present. And even then, let's remember that Stan Lee gave us Nightcat, Ravage 2099, AND Stripperella. Just because Stan invented Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, etc., etc. does not mean those aforementioned books don't suck. I'm perfectly capable of acknowledging the good works of creators while at the same time critiquing their crap.

It seems to me that a reputation needs to be MAINTAINED, not simply coasting along on prior accomplishments. And frankly Frank Miller's work in the last decade (and even plenty before that) has shown that his reputation is slipping.

As for his "contribution to an era of comics," you're basically saying that the grim-and-gritty era, with an emphasis on over-the-top narration, overly violent heroes, and storylines that while claiming to be for more mature, adult audiences contain about as much mature storytelling as a fourteen year-old boy who thinks that simply including rape and death and murder automatically makes it "deep" is something to be proud of. Well, hate to burst your bubble, but Frank Miller HIMSELF said that that era was crap and that he hated it.

But once again, the point stands - Frank Miller doesn't get a free pass any more than any other artist. To suggest that he or any other creator should get a free pass simply because of their prior accomplishments suggests that these are not artists, but Gods - that they can do no wrong, that we should never critique them because everything they've done before wipes out any chance of doing something bad.

We can give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that because they made good stuff in the past that they'll probably continue to make good stuff. All of the people who have commented here about their disappointment with the Dark Knight Strikes Again can attest to that - we gave Frank Miller a chance and he dropped the ball hard.

"Go ahead and make fun of him all you want Linkara, which I'm sure you will."

Rest assured.

"It just seems obvious in this review that it's not Miller's style you have a problem with, but his politics and that is just lame. "

Really? It's OBVIOUS, eh? At what point in my review did I hold up a sign that proclaimed, "All of Frank Miller's political views are wrong and I have a problem with them." Perhaps it was the part where I pointed out the confusing storyline. Or maybe it was the critique I made of the backgrounds, or rather the lack of them in favor of cheap swirls that I could replicate if I actually felt like doing a more complete parody? Ooh! I know! It was when I pointed out that Frank Miller seems to fail to grasp the nuances behind the characters he's working with, opting instead to denigrate those characters he seems to dislike in favor of the characters he likes.

In fact, you may have noticed that I made no political comments concerning my own beliefs, but rather critiqued the aspects of the book itself as a comic and its essential premise as a comic and the elements contained within. The closest you could get is my statement about not wanting to watch Keith Olberman, but I did not say WHY I didn't want to watch him. For all you know, it could simply be that I find him boring.

But I guess I'm just so obvious in my distate for Frank Miller's lefty, wishy-washy, bleeding heart liberal tendencies.

Then again, Frank Miller's a conservative.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"I'm also tired of how you keep harping on scantily clad women appearing in the book. What? Do you have a problem with (nearly) naked women? Does the nude female body intimidate you that much? Seriously, what's your hang-up? I'm a heterosexual guy and I'll be the first to admit (I'm sure quite a few will agree with me on this as well) - I like seeing females in states of undress."

So do I, being a heterosexual male. What I don't like is seeing them in my comics. Have you been paying attention to my reviews? Noticing a pattern developing of crappy comics that seem oh-so-overjoyed at the prospect of utilizing female characters not as characters in their own right, but sex objects to be lusted after?

But let's leave that aside for a second and talk strictly about the Dark Knight Strikes Again. Pray tell, since I apparently know nothing of what I'm talking about - how did the "Nude in the News" segments contribute to the story? What exactly enhanced the narrative by having advertisements for investment firms with naked women making innuendo?

And please, tell me, if nude women makes comics so much better, why not have more nudity? Perhaps the men should be nude, as well? The point is - I didn't buy this book for boobs. If I want boobs, I have porn or I can have sex. Why the funk and wagnell should I be opening up a book about Batman and seeing tits instead of him? Superheroes are modern mythology, telling epic tales of good versus evil, the nature of identity, and various other themes that can be explored in other genres.

So what's my hang up? I'm sick and tired of creators treating their work as if they were working on softcore porn and treating me as if I won't look at it if they don't.

"So how about some objective reviewing next time and keeping your politics and feminism under your 'purdy' hat?"

Well, teensy bit of a problem there, since all reviews come from opinions, anyway. Based off of my knowledge and experience, especially when dealing with comic books, informs me about a story and what works and doesn't work and I make an evaluation based on my experience. But if you're really trying to pretend that there's some "objective" standard here, then here's the quick review:

The art is a mishmash of misproportioned individuals in a lazy, haphazard environment. The character motivations don't operate with the established tenets, few if any characters are likeable, and the narrative pace is slow and uneven.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Are you hear to review comics, or are you hear to espouse upon your own personal views? I started out liking your videos but lately? It's been the same complaints over and over again."

When I keep seeing the same things over and over, you may see common themes. And as you may have noticed, I AM reviewing them. I talked about what scenes worked and I talked about what scenes sucked. I gave far more credit than I do in many of my other videos, but apparently being fair isn't good enough.

"Before I leave? How about we compare yours and Miller accomplishments, shall we?

MILLER:
The Dark Knight Returns
Sin City
Ronin
300
A defining run on Daredevil
Creator of Elektra
6 time Eisner Award winner
4 time Kirby Award winner
3 time Harvey Award winner
Hollywood director and screen-writer

LINKARA:
Internet comic book reviewer for TGWTG

Like it or not? But Miller PWNS you Linkara, and judging from some of these comments I've been reading? Seems like I'm not the only one that feels that way. Looks like made quite a boner with this review."

My God, you're right! Working as a professional in the industry for thirty years he's accomplished more than I have in the two years I've been working on my attempts at professional comics and in an entirely different field!

Well clearly my eyes have been opened - simply because he has won awards over the past few decades and has put out several books, I am quite clearly pwned. I should also point out that during is Daredevil run he was more than happy to kill that beloved female character Elektra as well as turning a supporting character into a drug-addicted porn star, 300 is a racist, homophobic, and fascistic dent in his career, and Sin City, while an interesting and unique take on noir styling and writing in comics, is also where Frank really got his reputation for "whoreswhoreswhores."

Even good stuff isn't without its flaws. I could go over the many flaws of Watchmen. But a work is different from a creator. A work on its own can be evaluated for that and that alone. A creator, on the other hand, is the one who puts out multiple works and thus we have to evaluate him on more than just an old laundry list.

And again - really? I am a critic and someone who aspires to be in the industry. He is a writer and artist in that industry who has been operating in that field for a few decades now. He does not "PWN" me any more than a basketball player "PWNS" a novel writer because of a perfect free-throw record.

Anonymous said...

D-Damn! Sounds like you riled the nest up, Linkara. Yet it looks like you are holding your own AND keeping it classy.

You know something? At first, I didn't think too much of you. I still need a bit more time before your reviews really grow on me.

But you what? I like you. I like your style.

You got sand, son. Testicular fortitude the likes of which I haven't seen the like of in a long while.

But best of all, you got class. You aren't some trolling little pissant who flips his shit at the slightest pressure.

Hats off to you. Keep it up.

James said...

Anonymous: It's like Bennett said in his last fan-fic review: Linkara has balls of granite!

FotoVerite said...

And again - really? I am a critic and someone who aspires to be in the industry. He is a writer and artist in that industry who has been operating in that field for a few decades now. He does not "PWN" me any more than a basketball player "PWNS" a novel writer because of a perfect free-throw record.

This here Luis is why you are awesome. Stay classy and don't even mind these idiots

Stacy said...

'let's remember that Stan Lee gave us Nightcat, Ravage 2099, AND Stripperella.'

Ugh, do we really have to?

Vic Sage said...

It's OBVIOUS that anytime a comic creator offends your right wing sensibilities, you automatically get your glasses all steamed and start ranting. Your remarks about Keith Olberman, V for Vendetta, then remarking how the president in DK2 was a commentary on 'Gee Dubba Ya'; how can you not make it more obvious? And please, we all knew what you meant by the Olberman remark okay? It's pretty cheap of you to try and suggest that it might be because he's boring when we all know Olberman takes shots at right winged conservatives.

As for the nudity? Show me one nipple or vagina in DK2. These women were not nude, but in states of undress, states that are not so dissimiliar to the costume of Wonder Woman. So I'm guessing by your argument? You must have a problem with her as well. I guess when she or any other woman (ficitional or real) shows off a thigh or some cleavage, it's 'soft core porn'. Wow, I guess all those times when Betty and Veronica were in bathing suits in Archie comics, it was just like watching late night Cinemax. Absurd. Might I ask where your indignation was regarding Starfire's costume in your beloved Teen Titans? Not too mention how all the costumes for the male heroes seem sprayed on and leave little to the imagination.

And yes Linkara, you do have a very, very, very long way to go before you even get close to accomplishing what Miller did in the industry. That maybe, being an aspiring writer or artist, you above all else would appreciate how impressive his achievements are and show him a degree of respect. But hey, it's okay. I know how it is. You're trying to get some attention by atacking a comic legend - you even said something similar yourself at the end of the review prior to this one. Way to make a name for yourself at someone else's expense, especially when Miller isn't here to defend himself, then again, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't care what you have to say. So perhaps by that token? Neither should I.

I do however respect the following that you wrote:

"The art is a mishmash of misproportioned individuals in a lazy, haphazard environment. The character motivations don't operate with the established tenets, few if any characters are likeable, and the narrative pace is slow and uneven."

Even though I don't agree with it, I respect the way it was written.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"It's OBVIOUS that anytime a comic creator offends your right wing sensibilities, you automatically get your glasses all steamed and start ranting. Your remarks about Keith Olberman, V for Vendetta, then remarking how the president in DK2 was a commentary on 'Gee Dubba Ya'; how can you not make it more obvious? And please, we all knew what you meant by the Olberman remark okay? It's pretty cheap of you to try and suggest that it might be because he's boring when we all know Olberman takes shots at right winged conservatives."

Once again, do not presume to know what goes through MY head and MY opinions. My remarks about the V for Vendetta movie are that they changed plot elements for no reason other than to, as the Wachowski Brothers themselves had to say "update the film to deal with contemporary issues." I do not recall either the British or the US Government staging a terrorist attack and this revelation in the movie serves no purpose whatsoever since it neither advances the plot nor does it "speak to contemporary issues," since such an act would not be an allegory for real life events. But let's forget about that for a second and move back to your assumption that any attacks on right-wing politics immediately gets my hat in a twist.

I have not made it a secret that I'm a right winger nor do I seem to have any problem keeping my mouth shut, so don't you think that if it was really about my feelings as a Conservative that I'd have any reservations about shouting it from the rooftops? Considering the presidential parody and the parody of the American voters continues to go downhill in the other issues and becomes more and more explicit, it's hard to qualify the President in the book as anything but a commentary on George W. Bush. Furthermore, at no point during that video did I loudly yell "Anyone who parodies Bush is a monster!" or anything similar to it. In fact, the only thing I did was comment on the annoying and ever-present commentary of Jimmy Olsen, whose bits slow down the story and while he's yelling about where our heroes have gone, we also see that Batman, the purported hero of the story, beats down Superman, who regularly serves as a symbol of hope and decency in the world in what can best be described as unnecessarily brutal, outright insulting him constantly because "I am the glorious Batgod, since I'm not superstrong!"

My problem is not that the creators are liberal. My problem is that I read comic books to GET AWAY from debates on either side of the fence and if you really want to know how I feel about politics, frankly I say a pox on both their houses.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"As for the nudity? Show me one nipple or vagina in DK2. These women were not nude, but in states of undress, states that are not so dissimiliar to the costume of Wonder Woman. So I'm guessing by your argument? You must have a problem with her as well. I guess when she or any other woman (ficitional or real) shows off a thigh or some cleavage, it's 'soft core porn'. Wow, I guess all those times when Betty and Veronica were in bathing suits in Archie comics, it was just like watching late night Cinemax. Absurd. Might I ask where your indignation was regarding Starfire's costume in your beloved Teen Titans? Not too mention how all the costumes for the male heroes seem sprayed on and leave little to the imagination."
I would refer you back to my Titans #1 review and my irritation over Starfire needing to bathe in the nude for nothing more than pointless fanservice. Furthermore my critique of Donna Troy's costume and her ever-lowering cleavage line.

And as I have also stated in my other reviews it's very rare to find a male superhero being drawn in skimpy attire that's meant to titillate, or their outlined crotches even while wearing spandex or armor, whereas in most superheroines you'll notice that their breasts or their ass coverings are basically spray-painted on since no clothing works that way.

But how about dear Carrie Kelly in this book, the only redeeming character of the whole thing. Half the time she's drawn so that her butt is sticking out for the reader to see. And this is supposed to be a minor. Now that probably wasn't intentional on Frank's part, but he did take the time to lovingly outline the crack of her ass, so it does raise an eyebrow.

As for actual nudity, no, but then again when they're clearly drawn to be nude anyway, what's the real difference? Furthermore if you actually look at that investment firm ad again, her nipples must be very unusually placed to be covered up as they are by the dollar bills.

"And yes Linkara, you do have a very, very, very long way to go before you even get close to accomplishing what Miller did in the industry. That maybe, being an aspiring writer or artist, you above all else would appreciate how impressive his achievements are and show him a degree of respect."

I see no reason to respect a man who shows no respect for me. Or perhaps you should see those script excerpts again. You know, the ones where Frank Miller wants to "make me drool," because of course I need to read comic books to get my rocks off.

"But hey, it's okay. I know how it is. You're trying to get some attention by atacking a comic legend - you even said something similar yourself at the end of the review prior to this one. Way to make a name for yourself at someone else's expense, especially when Miller isn't here to defend himself, then again, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't care what you have to say. So perhaps by that token? Neither should I. "

I made that statement because I figured I could get some intellectual debate concerning the critique, concerning the possible symbolic meaning behind some scenes, get people talking. In the regard of talking, well, mission accomplished there.

As for Frank Miller not being able to defend himself - Oh, boo friggin' hoo. I'm sure he lies awake at night shivering in fear because a book released eight years ago is being critiqued by a guy on the internet. And by the way, my critiques aren't new - people were saying the book sucks right after it came out, so I doubt he's a stranger to seeing people mock it.

But yes, as you said - if you don't care what I say, then why are you here debating with me?

Heenato said...

I'm not the biggest comic reader. Heck. I don't read many at all. But when I DO read a comic, it's certainly not to ogle the women. I mean, you REALLY have to ask yourself WHY there were panels devoted to that 'news in the nude' Are they talking about anything important to the plot? If so, could it in ANY way have been given to the readers in some OTHER way? If so, then WHY IS IT THERE?! The point is I don't care if there IS nudity. I care when it's just there for no reason other than fanservice.

Personally, I HATE talking about politics, and I don't want my comics talking about politics either. It's not that I hate any comic that has political allegories or things like that either. No, I only care if they're blatant. I'm fine with subtle things. I love trying to pick out hidden context and figuring out what is being said. However, I don't like when it's just thrown in my face.

This was a great review, Linkara, and you've inspired me to read more comics. Keep up the good work.

anthony said...

The background of the Spartans in 300 was true. Their Fascist training really was that hash, though I wish that there was more elaboration on it. The movie is better in my opinion, cause it showed more of Queen Gorgo and I thought she was a good symbol to represent the Spartan women.

Green Ninja said...

Aww, not again. This is the part of an Internet discussion where I fail to offer anything remotly as well-written and htought out then other people on a board. ^^

Ah, screw it, I'll give it a shot.

First things first: Lewis, Kudos to you for starting the discussion with Vic Sage. It's too bad you only have the comment section here. It makes the whole thing a bit hard to follow.

Since Vic had so much fun pointing out what Frank Miller does better than Linkara, I just give you my opinion on some of his works.

Ronin was just one big WTF to me. Maybe I didn't understand it completly, but I really, really did not like it.

In defence of [b]DK2[/b] (here's a line I never thought I'd say), when I read it a few months back, the initial introduction of News in the nude didn't bother me that much. It seemed to me like something not that unrealistic. That was, of course, before I read here, that this kind of thing actually exists.
In part 2, we see something called , and I quote, "super manga giant big news" with a big-eyed anime girl. This kinda goes with the theme of overstylized media trying everything to get the attention of the public.
All of this [i]would[/i] work as criticism on the media and such, if we didn't know that Frank did it mostly for the "boob factor". The first page of Part 2 has a NAKED girl with a Superman tatoo on her butt. This has nothing to do with the main plot. The whole "superhero fangirl" plot NEVER GOES ANYWHERE!

As for Vics argument about him being said in one breath with Lee and Ditko: Well, you've got a point. Miller is behind some really good stuff. But the new stuff is just plain bad. I'm not even talking about Daredevil (I was introduced to the chracter by Miller's work. It's pretty much all I know of him). Stuff like DK2 or All-Star Crazy Steve is prove to that he's not some sort of comic god. Maybe he once was, but not anymore. Not by a longshot.
People once thought that George Lucas could do no wrong. Guess what. Jar Jar happened.

Oh, and the "twist" at the end of DK2 is horrible. Frank, once again, completly destroys Batman and everything he stands for.

SPOILER WARNING:

Batman laughs at Hawk Girl killing fat Luthor with a mace. A few pages later he decapites Dick Grayson, who's been the villian all along and throws him into the volcano under the batcave.

A VOLCANO! UNDER THE BATCAVE!!


I wrote too much. I'm off.

P.S. Lewis, you can clear that last part with the spoilers if you want, so you can go on about it in a video. ;)

Mela said...

"My problem is that I read comic books to GET AWAY from debates on either side of the fence and if you really want to know how I feel about politics, frankly I say a pox on both their houses."

Linkara, the more I learn about you, the more I like you. Keep up the brave fight against the Miller apologists.

Anonymous said...

Linkara I want you to honestly tell me why you think its bad that the cold war is mentioned. Crime is a MAJOR Friggin part of politics, thus it makes sense that they would incorporate more themes like that in the videos. Seriously your just starting to rant now. You take a bad comic and you try to turn every aspect of it into a rant.

When you read watchmen where you complaining about the cold war being in that too? (i know completely different things here)

and ALSO, who gives a freaking crap about how big the girls Lips were?!?!?!? are you so GENERIC in your taste of comics that you'll only like them or praise them if they are stereotypical flawless heroes, with over the top, over elaborate villains? believe it or not people can't all be the same... if you saw a different race of people like in Estonia and they (this is just poor example) for some reason had slightly bigger ears than non-estonians would you flip out about that?

sorry if i should like an ass, i still like your other work, but your starting to really show what type of reviewer you are, and thus, i'm losing interest...

Anonymous said...

Also I'll admit that if a girl in her underwear is tasteful, then yeah its fine to see it. but yeah i agree with you Linkara, I don't read comics to get turned on, thats what porn is for. I read comics for comics, cool characters in tough situations finding a solution. BUT sometimes if you can manage to make a female character looking sexy in a tasteful way then hey more power to ya. but i'll admit sometimes frank takes it too far... but honestly its not a huge deal i guess...

Vic Sage said...

Just one final word:

Well Linkara, you're certainly right about that: I don't know what goes through your mind when you write these reviews. All anyone can do is watch them and interpret. If we interpret them wrong? Part of the fault lies within our own perception, that's true; but part of the blame lies within said execution of the review.

As for Starfire? I did not mean in 'Titans', but rather during the Wolfman / Perez 'Tales of The Teen Titans'. If DK2 sucks partly because of nearly nude women, then by the same token? So must 'Tales'.
By the way, I did notice how you completely sidestepped my question regarding Wonder Woman or Betty and Veronica.

As for male superheroes not appearing in skimpy attire?
Hercules, Namor, Conan, Kamandi, Robin, Barry Windsor-Smith's nearly nude Wolverine in Weapon X, Kazar, Martian Manhunter, Doctor Manhattan, and furthermore? You could make arguments for The Hulk and The Silver Surfer. Would you say those characters were drawn that way to titilate gay readers? Remember, just as we don't know what's going through your mind when you write these reviews, you don't know what was going through the creator's mind when they birthed the character.

You seriously think Miller showed you, in particular, no respect for writing DK2? Miller doesn't even know you're alive! Still, I don't believe he would go out of his way to mock and poke fun at some of your efforts. That, Linkara, is the definition of class. Furthermore, I seriously doubt Miller wrote the book wanting to annoy people. Yes, some people don't like - but some people do. It's a matter of personal taste; like key lime pie.

As for not caring what you have to say? I find the debate entertaining if not vital.

Stacy said...

One of my chief gripes against DKSA lies with the art itself. Somewhere along the line Miller got too used to the artistic shorthand of his later Sin City work and the overall effort suffers for it. Say what you will of The Dark Knight Returns, there's some amazingly iconic imagery to be found in the book; Batman swooping down on the gang members, leaping across rooftops with Carrie, the final ride of Batman and the Sons of the Batman, Superman hefting the tank, the final fight. Those images are as powerful and epic as you'd expect from The Last Batman Story. So much so that for all it's hints at what was to come, I still consider it so, much as Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is the Last Superman Story, continuity be damned.

But DKSA? Is there a single piece of imagery beyond that fist raised in defiance that's worthwhile? I remember looking at the individual parts as they were coming out and thinking 'dear Lord is this a confused mess.' Does anyone own this in trade, and was it cleaned up at all?

Stac

poohbear said...

Lewis Lovhaug said...
"If I want boobs, I have porn."

you watch porn? doesn't that fly in the face of your feminist beliefs Lew? how can you defend women and then ogle porn, when porn glorifies the female body as a sexual object?

Freakazoid! said...

The Do-It-Yourself Atop The Fourth Wall review:

Step 1: Buy a video camera

Step 2: Get a hat and a pair of glasses

Step 3: Choose what you're going to review. This step is very important. Either

A. Choose an obscure comic that no one has heard of, let alone buy or read

or

B. Bash Frank Miller

Step 4: Begin your review! Here's a handy checklist to help make sure it has that authentic Linkara feel!

- Roll your eyes when a comic pokes fun at George Bush or begins to lean towards the left

- Shout "I'm a man!"

- Go ape-boogers bonkers when you see a hint of boobies

- Put on a dopey grin and say "I love alliteration!"

- Slag off on the book's art, totally missing the point of artistic interpretation the artist was trying to render.

- Do some ninja style dancing

- Sing some off the wall song from the 70's

- Shout "This comic sucks!" then end the review.

Congratulations! Post it on blip.tv and bask in the afterglow of a job well done!

(just having some fun Link, lighten up - it's Christmas time!)

hazlenaut said...

the catgirl cosume may be a new nomination for the worst costume founded in a comic book since it supose be "inspired" by catwoman. well atleast its not procative like few other costumes. I guess someone restaint frank miller for cosume design. Wait isn't catwoman costume supose slick slime for thievary and espionage and the cosumes she is wearing costume that may be useful if she in the wildeness of high grass. it is more like a getup that can be found in Jetset Radio. I am guessing the catgirl idea will have to go back into the drawing board inorder for that to work. It could be a good idea for another time if some knows how to use it wisely after they done big makeover.

Anonymous said...

"You seriously think Miller showed you, in particular, no respect for writing DK2? Miller doesn't even know you're alive! Still, I don't believe he would go out of his way to mock and poke fun at some of your efforts. That, Linkara, is the definition of class. "

Buddy, you got a real twisted definition of "class".

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"(just having some fun Link, lighten up - it's Christmas time!)"

You forgot "hold up a teddy bear and yell "BEAR!"" ^_~

"you watch porn? doesn't that fly in the face of your feminist beliefs Lew? how can you defend women and then ogle porn, when porn glorifies the female body as a sexual object?"

"Feminism," like most other philosophical and political beliefs, have differing views about various subjects. For example, there is a camp of feminism that feels that porn is altogether degrading to women and an example of exploitation of the female form.

There's another camp that feels that sex work, be it porn or prostitution, are equally legitimate career paths seeing as it's a woman's body to do with as she pleases.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Well Linkara, you're certainly right about that: I don't know what goes through your mind when you write these reviews. All anyone can do is watch them and interpret. If we interpret them wrong? Part of the fault lies within our own perception, that's true; but part of the blame lies within said execution of the review."

Fair enough. If I don't get my points across adequately, that is indeed on my head.

"As for Starfire? I did not mean in 'Titans', but rather during the Wolfman / Perez 'Tales of The Teen Titans'. If DK2 sucks partly because of nearly nude women, then by the same token? So must 'Tales'.
By the way, I did notice how you completely sidestepped my question regarding Wonder Woman or Betty and Veronica."

It doesn't suck BECAUSE of it, it simply compounds the issues of an already crappy comic. But let's look at the Starfire example and you're absolutely right - her outfit is revealing and exists mostly to serve as fanservice. However, by an equal token, Wolfman and Perez created a character where such an attire would be natural, to the point where on her planet we do see that men and women wear such clothing. Now it's still eyeroll worthy, but the difference is that in a good story, like the ones made during the Wolfman-Perez era, you can forgive the little eccentricities, especially since we saw Starfire in a variety of outfits during that time, including several fully-clothed occasions. I would also point out that my favorite outfit was the one she wore during Devin Grayson's run on the title, which was considerably less revealing.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"As for male superheroes not appearing in skimpy attire?
Hercules, Namor, Conan, Kamandi, Robin, Barry Windsor-Smith's nearly nude Wolverine in Weapon X, Kazar, Martian Manhunter, Doctor Manhattan, and furthermore? You could make arguments for The Hulk and The Silver Surfer. Would you say those characters were drawn that way to titilate gay readers? Remember, just as we don't know what's going through your mind when you write these reviews, you don't know what was going through the creator's mind when they birthed the character."

No, I wouldn't say they were made to tittilate gay readers or even female readers, basically for two reasons - one, the industry has a difficulty time acknowledging that there are gay or female readers, thinking instead they need to cater to a male demographic that they fail to realize has grown up, but that's the lesser point.

Even in skimpy attire, the emphasis is more on how strong they are, their superheroics, i.e. the fact that they're bare-chested takes a back seat to the fact that they're super-strong.

On women, however, artists tend to like to draw them bending over, showing off cleavage, or giving sultry looks. Don't believe me? Check out Wizard magazine's guide to comic drawing, made with contributions from artists, who state quite openly that women should be drawn with an emphasis on sexuality and beauty instead of superheroic strength, which the men are drawn to emphasize. If you wish for further evidence, in an interview a few years ago, an editor said that he had hard time placing a word ballooon "because I didn't want to cover up an ass shot Frank Choi had drawn." And then there's, once again, Frank Miller stipulating in the script that Jim Lee should be drawing Vicki Vale to tittilate the readers.

"You seriously think Miller showed you, in particular, no respect for writing DK2? Miller doesn't even know you're alive! Still, I don't believe he would go out of his way to mock and poke fun at some of your efforts."

No, he showed me disrespect as a consumer. He apparently believes that I go to my comic books to see Vicki Vale's pink panty-clad rear taking up the panel.

"Yes, some people don't like - but some people do. It's a matter of personal taste; like key lime pie."

Indeed. And you'll notice I have no problem with people liking the book. As I've stated, this is all my opinion, formulated after reading lots of his work, analyses of the work, and based off of the material presented to me and in interviews with him.

But in the end it is my opinion. You seem to be the one who has a problem with me disliking it.

JeanJacket said...

"Still, I don't believe he would go out of his way to mock and poke fun at some of your efforts."

...Linkara is a reviewer, you know. It's sort of his job.

Green Ninja said...

To add something to the whole "male readers" topic.
I believe that the comic industry maybe shares the standpoint of the wargaming giant Games Workshop. There may be a big market of older customers who stuck with an company for years, but it essentially comes down to bring in new folk and maybe some people just decided to stick with the "male teen" demographic.
-
And now for something completly different: Lewis, you seem to read, or at least review, mostly American Superhero-comics. Not that I have a problem with that, it's what I spend most of my comic budget and reading time on as well. But I was wondering if you're familiar with some of the major european comics like Asterix or Tintin?

FotoVerite said...

Agreed Luis, Like Hollywood comics have banked most of their dollars on teenage boys. Which is sad since there are so many interesting stories for women heroes if people would stop treating them as an afterthought.

A more interesting avenue of discussion of eroticism in comics would be a discussion of your thoughts on Lost Girls. Though I am sure you could make a whole review out of that.

Stacy said...

Superhero comics don't use the male form to titilate nearly as much as they do the female form. There are some equal oppurtunity artists out there (Alan Davis is pretty fair in his beef/cheese cake distribution) but by and large editorial for the major companies seems to have settled on the fact that their audience is the 20-45 year-old set and locked in firmly to the Spike TV school of fan service.

Another thing is the fact that if the male form were used with the same emphasis it'd probably bring to light the stark fact that yes, we are in fact reading about muscular men in form-fitting spandex wailing unmerciful on each other. Sure, there are female characters but statistically you are going to see more dudes than chicks grappling in mortal combat, sinews straining, pecs heaving. . .gah. . .

See, this is why sexualizing comics fails. Once you open your escapism to pervisive thought it just wrecks it like the Enterprise at the end of Search for Spock. I can admire the human physical form in peak condition, but if you start opening the door to lechery, it's almighty difficult to close it again(That's what she said! Wooo). . .

日本文化のマニアック said...

Everyone defending Frank Miller here, I ask you: how do you defend this art? It is impossible to tell what's going on in these scenes. The first time I read it through (yes, this is one I've actually read) I was completely baffled; nothing was situated, everything took place in a vague single-color space. It's almost impossible to follow, which is the #1 no-no in any comic book or graphic novel. Even if you're going for a highly-stylized look, there has to be a visual narrative, which is sorely lacking here.

I think Linkara noted that there are positive elements in this comic, which I would agree with. but there is a lot of padding. While the media commentary could have been used as a way of generating a dystopian atmosphere, as it did in TDKR, it takes up too much time in DK2. It distracts from the central plot.

As for politics, well, you don't have to be a conservative to hate Keith Olberman. I'm quite liberal myself on most issues, but Olberman's still a smug and obnoxious, and I find myself wishing I didn't agree with him whenever I catch a clip of his show. Which is why I actually don't like the comparison made to Jimmy Olsen here, who comes across as earnest and sincere rather than full of himself.

And as Linkara said, Frank Miller isn't left wing at all. My impression from DK2 is that his criticism of Bush would be that Bush wasn't right wing enough - that he ought to have set up martial law and gone and nuked the terrorists from the get-go, screw the people and their stupid laws.

matthewmk2 said...

Linkara,YOUR GAY!?1 WTF???

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Linkara,YOUR GAY!?1 WTF???"

Umm... no. Where the heck did you get that from?

FotoVerite said...

"Linkara,YOUR GAY!?1 WTF???"

'Umm... no. Where the heck did you get that from?'

From aunt zelda I presume...?! But only for doctor insano.

Or he's just a dumbass. Pick whatever makes more sense.

Corey said...

I'd just like to point out to the gentlemen who said that Linkara's political views were obvious in his reviews that I always believed that Linkara did a great job of being (or appearing to be) moderate while he did his reviews.

Honestly, I always assumed that he was simply rolling his eyes at the poor strawmen characters used by writers to complain about certain things. For example, in this review, I figured the eyeroll at the Holo-Bush was to point out how blatant and obvious it was that Miller was going that route. Now I'm a ol' lefty and generally didn't care for the man's term, but I hated the poor parodies and bad puns/jokes more.

I think if you're going to satirize politics, you should be tactful and subtle with it. Miller's use of the Holo-Bush and Amazons Attack's Lex News segments were as subtle as a brick in the small of your back. I'm glad Linkara scoffed at these poor quality attempts at being "topical".

kinkorknight said...

No, don't do it. Don't get..

Ah, too late.

You know, I've come to realize that politics in this country has gotten rather ugly. You can't bring it up at all without somebody getting angry at your views. The irony of DK2, for all its serious flaws, is that Miller actually hit on something: our society has transformed into a culture that values angry, confrontational news segments over honest, respectful debates. Both the Internet and the 24/hours news channels have contributed greatly to this, the former due to the anonymity of the commenting system, and the latter because of how news has turned into entertainment.

Now look at this thread. Linkara shows a bit of a right streak on occasion and people are already jumping down his throat about it, using it as an ad homnem attack. We're living the problem, folks. I probably don't share Lovhaug's political views, but why should that be relevant? More over, why can't we be respectful about it?

Well, actually, I already know the answer to my own questions. I'm a card-carrying cynic these days. Still, here's one guy who will watch you as long as you keep up the comedy, even if your views emulate Rush Limbaugh's.

(P.S. Oh, God, please don't emulate Rush Limbaugh.)

Landon Erp said...

Gotta be honest man, I know you probably get a lot of crap for your politics but there are some of us out there (myself included) who are glad to see it.

Hell, I'm just glad to see someone in a position like yours who doesn't rag on Objectivists.

BigX360 said...

Why can't you leave politics out of your reviews Linkara and just concentrate on entertaining us? It all started with Superman IV and you were the one who started it with your comment about nukes. You say you don't want politics in your comics, but then you shove them off on us. Hypocrite.

James said...

BigX360: Linkara only goes after political commentary that's done poorly, i.e. it's shoved in your face and doesn't present itself as well thought out or open to discussion/contemplation.

Casey said...

Wow, when watching the commentary for Superman 4, I thought you were joking a bit when you brought up people hating you for bringing up politics in your reviews.

I can't believe the outrage this video has gotten. Have people forgotten that you are a provider of free entertainment which consists of you talking about your views on a subject? I mean, I do not always agree with you, but wow...the outrage I have seen in this thread is unbelievable.

I hope you have not lost any sleep over this man, you still are one of the funniest people to watch online.

P.S. Is there any chance at all you may make an appearance at the San Diego Comic Con this year? :P

Mistwraith said...

@Stian: I would instantly buy a Hello Kitty story by Frank Miller, no matter what.

@Discussion: I like the fact that Linkara speaks about politics in his reviews. As an european (Austria), I will not go any further into this. Talking about american politics is not my affair. But I like it, and I like this discussion as well. I like to learn about north american politics and social life by north americans, not our media.

@Frank Miller fans: Yes, you are right when telling us, that he won awards and is sucessful with what he is doing. No doubt about that. But you cant compare that to other people that are not in the same buisness. A critic dont have to screen movies or write novels to speak about them.

As for the media satire: I cant take a media satire about what the news become seriously, when I know the scripts to this comics. "Show us a closeup of her ass, she has such a fine ass", for example. That has nothing to do with satire, that has something to do with showing asses and boobies. I am from europe, so I dont have any problem with nudity in media, as most europeans. But the media satire is purely an excuse for Miller to show naked woman.

Also, Frank Miller cannot write storys. Watch his movies and comicbooks closely. You see the same story over and over again. Sure, there is nothing wrong with that as long as this story is sucessful. But it shows his lack of creativity.

Kate Holden said...

Politics in comics is a difficult subject. While I'm not against the inclusion of politics in comics, I dislike when the creator uses the comic and characters as a mouthpiece to shout out their personal views. That is the difference between the Comic and the Film of 'V for Vendetta'. The comic is about anarchy, and it was written in response to the 'everybody looks after themselves' Conservative Thatcher government we (Britain) had at the time. V is never specifically a 'hero', s/he is the embodiment of anarchy, hence the Guy Fawkes mask (which in the comic is just a subtext, Moore never points out that it IS Guy Fawkes).
Then those American pillocks pick it up, more than a decade later, and make it all about terrorism and their thoughts on Bush, and make V this wonderful hero figure. It wasn't about Britain any more, it was just set here. The comics never try to justify V's actions, it simply shows them. The film is heavily biased to the opinion that V is right and good and represents the will of the people, rather than allowing the audience to decide. In the comic, the cop only finds V by taking drugs, in order to become closer to his chaotic mindset. The idea being that sometimes a small amount of anarchy and destruction can allow progress (but that was only implied, never dictated).

That is the difference. While I am a liberal, I dislike comics that preach liberal views just as much as (much rarer) ones that preach conservative views. Politics should be presented just as something that IS. The reader should be allowed to make up their own mind which side they agree with, and the writer shouldn't tell them which is right. That's what makes Moore such a great writer. Even with a freaking super-right-wing nutter like Rorschach, he doesn't condone or condemn the character's actions, he just presents them and has the character act accordingly. Moore actually says he's freaked out by people who strongly feel that Rorschach is right, and heroic, but even though he personally strongly disagrees with the character, he never makes him into a straw man or makes the comic point him out as a guy who is wrong.

While Linkara has been seen to express his conservative views on a subject, it is only generally in response to when writers use characters as a mouthpiece for their own liberal views, particularly when they're not fully considered or researched, or they're presented in the comic as though they're the only correct answer in an argument that should be much more complex.
He has been seen to get annoyed by criticism of Conservative government figures and ham-fisted staw men or analogies, but I honestly feel that he only does this when the political aspect detracts from the comic itself or is executed in an idiotic or one-sided way.

Even as somebody with liberal views, I've never felt that Linkara's political feelings compromise his integrity as a reviewer, and I often find I agree with him when he points out an alternative view on a situation or statement presented as a one-sided argument in a comic or film (such as Superman just taking away everybody's nukes and nobody having any argument against it as if nuclear weapons are that simple an issue to solve).
I really don't see what some people's problem is here.

Anonymous said...

Your not really that funny anymore. Your just ranting now...

Juan said...

While I do not have a problem with fan service I don't fell aroused by it either, you said somethign that I have always criticed about "echii" or just all of those pg13 boob shots, in that If I want to be sexually aroused or to look at tits I don't look at a comic book that I am supossed in to enjoy a good story, If I want nudity I look at porn, it's not liek I am such a slave to my balls that I just think about sex all the time,but I really don't have such an issue with fan service because it doesn't work for me.
THere are stories where the nudity is used as a way of expresing the toen of the story, like Battle Royale (the manga not the movie) where the artist doens't believe in the discretion shot, so we see from rains flying to sex and it isn't made in a stylized fashion as to make it look attarctive, it in fact makes it look gross just to show us the tone of the story.
now onto this bok, I friend of mine found it funny in a Laughable way, I didn't found it that entertaining (maybe the part when Plastic man turns into a toilet but that is like the lowest form of humor) and while I am a fan of Miller I have to admit he just lost his mind at some point after finishing Sin City, he promised a new story about Jackie Boy in his Decent cop days and at first I was overenjoyed but seeing his work today makes me feel just unsure abotu the quality of the story, what happened to Frank? this story is a major let down from the original work, is like they made a Watchmen sequel that was like that early script (you know the oen where Ozymandias plan is to erase Manhatan because for.... the evulz?) you are right about that idiotic posture some people take about authors becoming inmune to criticism just because they did good things in the past, its like with videogames like zelda where you can't criticise them jsut because they were revolutionary in the ages of the NES.
I am waiting for the second Part where things just get more butfuck insane.
I think this was one of your best reviews yet.

lurkingwombat said...

Hey there,
Seen and read just about everything you have done. Love it and have some friends over every week to watch your show. They love it.
All i really wanted to say here was that i loved the Dr. Who reference!! That was fun.
Can't wait to see the issues you review in 2010

mightysamurai said...

Why can't you leave politics out of your reviews Linkara and just concentrate on entertaining us?

I can't help but notice that nobody ever seems to give Spoony or the Nostalgia Chick any guff when they insert their (liberal) politics into their reviews.

Samusara said...

Ha! You have the sack to bash Miller for DK2 and All Star Batman? I've read some of your 'Lightbringer' comic... LAME!

Let's jump around a bit and let's see how comics are supposed to be done, shall we?

You talk about the backgrounds for Miller's stuff yet look at yours. Oh yeah Lew, that plain diarhea brown background you used is soooo eye-catching and detailed! I don't know if I prefer that one or the battleship gray one used in #13.

And wait, what's this? Osprey The Girl Wonder? Gee, is this a rip-off cleverly disguised as a pastiche? Or a rip-off cleverly disguised as satire? I can't wait until they square off against The Puffin or The Jester! Why be creative when you can rip-off, oops, "pay homage' to other characters?

But let's look at the next part: concern over his fighting crime with a young woman? And a minor? Gee, I wonder where that sound familiar...

Could it be I heard it before from All Star Batman and Robin, where there was concern over his association with Robin; and Carrie Kelley? A character you already claimed you sort of liked? The great and mighty Linkara swapping ideas from the lowly Frank Miller? Nawww, it can't be! I'm sure I'm mistaken and you'll hastily explain it away.

Back to Lightbringer chapter one, Love the cover. I think I learned how to do that effect on Photoshop during basic training.

As for the art? Some artists use pencils. Some use ink. We see Mr. Lovhaug has elected to use etch-a-sketch. How daring! I love how none of the characters have a wrist. We'll have to call this Lovhaug's disease.

And all this text! All of this tedious boring text enclosed in a tedious gray box. Have we forgotten comics are a visual medium? Try telling the story through the action on the page!

I love the names you used. 'Serpant' oooh, how evil! Why it takes a 10 year old to come up with that degree of creativity!

And what's this? Lightbringer's power is to create solid forms out of light? Congratulations Lew, you just created Green Lantern about 60 years too late. And I love how he borrowed money from a guy who's a murderer, rapist, thief, slaver, and also might be a member of the gang who killed his parents. Hey Granholme, it's called a loan office! You borrow money from them and then hat way you don't have to deal with criminals!

I love how all the women are dressed, covered from head to toe. What part of amish country does this comic take place in? What is this, the 1890s?

And finally, for a comic called 'Lightbringer', we have to have to wait all the way until THE LAST PAGE to see the title character in uniform! Just like in DK2, another idea lifted from Miller!

This comic sucks! It stole 15 mintutes of my life and I want it back Lovhaug.

I'm a man!!!

mightysamurai said...

I do not recall either the British or the US Government staging a terrorist attack and this revelation in the movie serves no purpose whatsoever since it neither advances the plot nor does it "speak to contemporary issues," since such an act would not be an allegory for real life events.

Oh come on. That's just begging for a horde of 9/11 Truthers to show up!

You've done it now, Lewis.

anthony said...

I bet ya didn't hear about Liefeld working on a Graphic Novel on the Bible Lewis!

mightysamurai said...

More over, why can't we be respectful about it?

I'm sorry, but I really have to object to this attitude. Politics has NEVER been respectful in this country. (In fact I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any country where political discourse has been consistently respectful.)

During Vietnam and several times afterward we had RIOTS about our political issues. Some of our Founding Fathers were involved in PISTOL DUELS over their political views.

Granted our political conflicts have been much more tame than, say, Russia. But the idea that once upon a time we lived in a Golden Age of Respectable Politics that suddenly came to an end with the advent of Fox News and the internet.

detroit soldier said...

all dew respect linkara, i can't help but feel you did this review just to irk the miller fans. i can just picture u chatting with the nostagia critic laughing ur ass off about how u got everyone riled up.

Anonymous said...

Casey quoted:
I can't believe the outrage this video has gotten. Have people forgotten that you are a provider of free entertainment which consists of you talking about your views on a subject? I mean, I do not always agree with you, but wow...the outrage I have seen in this thread is unbelievable.

I hope you have not lost any sleep over this man, you still are one of the funniest people to watch online.

Me: word!

Stian

kinkorknight said...

@mightysamurai

My friend, look again at what I said. I never claimed there was a Golden Age. I don't yearn for the salad days of yore - the grand days where everyone was supposedly civil while at the same time women couldn't vote and minorities were freely persecuted. I'm well aware of the general nature of people to be myopic, selfish, and negative.

No, there were no lofty days before cable news and the Internet. But I believe these phenomenons are slowly driving us further apart, not bringing us together, and that we have a media industry built on confrontation and fear. I could get into a long discussion about this, but Linkara's site isn't the place and the thread's gotten too long.

Until next time.

Anonymous said...

Yo Linkara, dunno if you'll read this or not (and don't worry, I'm not a pissed off fan) but I have a few ideas of exactly why Frank Miller hates Superman.

I'm a HUGE Batman fanboy and therefore I hated Superman simply because he was the exact opposite of Batman (personality he had powers etc. etc.). I only saw the character as a giant insult against Batman. Reading All-Star Superman and going through a few episodes of JL Unlimited made me realize just how awesome he could be. The problem with Frank Miller is that hes never grown out of that phase and steadfastly refuses to, assuming almost everyone feels the same way. Well, okay, that AND bad writing.

It also doesn't help that he steadfastly refuses to accept that anything he does isn't pure gold.

Also, while I do realize you don't need the encouragement I'm gonna say this: people who say you are a bad person for being a Conservative are merely projecting.

Mr. Hobbs said...

Geez people, someone needs to teach yall some manners.

I mean, I think Linkara is a pretty cool guy. EH IS A MAN and doesn't afraid of anything.

Pay no mind to these naysayers and gnashers of teeth, you're the man Linkara! There's nothing wrong with being conservative, and I think it's pretty ghey that all these losers are claiming how wrong you are in voicing your opinion IN AN OPINION BASED REVIEW. YOU FOOLS!!!

Yall're the losers watching all his videos, I mean, if they piss you off that freakin much, just don't watch. Don't you have something better to do? Don't some of you have jobs or something? Why partake in a recreational hobby if all you're gonna do is whine. Or is complaining out your ass your recreational hobby.

If that's the case, yeah, top notch stuff.

Melanee Wood said...

@ Samusara
Apparently you haven't heard him talk about Lightbringer in his reviews, have you?

Admittedly, some of the concepts aren't new, but I will give Linkara credit for putting his own spin on superheroes for his stories. But anyway, that's besides the point. The point is for most comics in general, you would expect them to be done in a professional manner when it comes to not only the art, but also in coloring, especially in terms of published material. With DKSA, the artwork on itself own looks sloppy like it was done by a grade schooler, instead of a professional artist. But the coloring, it just cheaply put together, giving the impression of someone who either just discovered Photoshop and has no idea how to use, or are just lazy about it and didn't care about quality.

On the other hand, Lightbringer, assumedly, is not meant to be done on a professional level in terms of artistic sense. But that's fine, since there are plenty of webcomics out there that don't rely on beautiful visuals as long as the characters and story are good, and all can be forgiven somewhat.

The bottom line is we as readers expect some level of professionalism and quality when it comes to artwork and coloring in colored comics, but from what I see in DKSA, this is a very sad example of poorly done quality.

mightysamurai said...

My friend, look again at what I said.

I know what you said. Look at what I said.

I reject your premise that the internet and cable news are driving us apart. Do they inspire argument? Sure. But the idea that they are seriously dividing the country is simply not true, IMO. All that cable news and the internet have done is allow greater communication. That isn't dividing the nation, that's just forcing us to deal with how much we already don't like each other.

We have had far more divisive forces in this country than the internet and cable news. The free love movement, the Red Scare, and the Civil War come immediately to mind. The internet and cable news don't even come close to that.

kinkorknight said...

@mightysamuari

"I know what you said. Look at what I said."

No, look at what I said. No, wait, I know you know what I said. No, wait, you know what I know what...

Forgive my poor attempt at humor, but you did ignore the fact that I did not claim a prior pre-Internet enlightened age. Moving on...

As for the main point, I do agree that social factors are more powerful influences. But communication does matter, and how we use that communication matters. I don't see that the way we use television or the Internet these days facilitates debate and the sharing of ideas in a constructive fashion. Nor do I excuse it as "the way we are" when we can do better. I don't expect it to happen, but I can dream.

Do me a favor, though. Watch "The Jim Lehrer Hour" on PBS and then watch an hour of any other pundit show. I don't form my opinion lightly.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Linkara I want you to honestly tell me why you think its bad that the cold war is mentioned. Crime is a MAJOR Friggin part of politics, thus it makes sense that they would incorporate more themes like that in the videos. Seriously your just starting to rant now. You take a bad comic and you try to turn every aspect of it into a rant.

When you read watchmen where you complaining about the cold war being in that too? (i know completely different things here)"

Sorry, must have overlooked this one. ^^;

The problem is the fact that the Cold War subplot is unnecessary to the story and really has nothing to do with Batman. In Watchmen, the Cold War subplot was a result of an altered history and it made a major contribution to the actions of the characters.

Crime is a part of politics, but not in the way you're suggesting. We're not talking about the reasons behind why crimes are committed or legislation against crime or etc., etc. - in most superhero stories, it's simply people engaging in illegal or immoral activities. If the purpose is to analyze the reasons behind why people do bad things, that's fine, we can evaluate the book on that, but 90% of the time that isn't going to be what the story is about.

"and ALSO, who gives a freaking crap about how big the girls Lips were?!?!?!? are you so GENERIC in your taste of comics that you'll only like them or praise them if they are stereotypical flawless heroes, with over the top, over elaborate villains? believe it or not people can't all be the same... if you saw a different race of people like in Estonia and they (this is just poor example) for some reason had slightly bigger ears than non-estonians would you flip out about that?"

It's an example of awful artwork. Carrie is supposed to be a sixteen year-old girl and she's drawn with ridiculously huge lips and a terrible costume. And even then, it was a minor point in the whole review, so why are you dwelling on it?

The Other said...

Well, so much for the theory that everyone hates Miller. As a Miller fanboy myself? Glad to see there are some of us left. God, I loves me some Sin City, Batman: Year One, and yes - All Star Batman and Robin.

As for DK2? My only complaint is there wasn't enough Batman in it. As far as the other stuff? Never paid attention to it. Guess it just goes to show ya that if you care to? You can find fault with just about anything.

I enjoyed the story. I loved the exchange between Flash and Bats later on in the story, and when Lex thinks he has Bruce cornered.

Make you a deal Linkara: If you don't think I suck for liking this comic, I won't think you suck for hating it. Deal? ^_~

Lewis Lovhaug said...

Fair enough, I have no problem with anyone liking any of the comics I review. ^_^

Stacy said...

Taste is subjective. Believe me, as a guy who owns SUPERMAN: AT EARTH'S END and actually kinda liked it(shaddup)I can still sit back and laugh when Linkara tore the story a new one. I come to AT4W to be amused and watch Linkara's reactions to these stories, and should his tastes and mine veer in different directions it's not a matter of which of us is 'right', it's a matter of opinion.

I think a lot of us who are in to pop culture, comics, and gaming tend to get a wee bit defensive when we feel our passions are being attacked. It's key to remember that review shows like the Nostalgia Critic, AT4W, and The Spoony Experiment come at their subject matter with a desire to make it amusing rather than any malicious intent. They don't 'hate everything', they just poke fun in the hopes of providing a smile and a laugh. If you feel so wronged and wrathful about such a piece then perhaps it's time to take a step back and a few deep breaths and remember that we're all here to have fun.

Just my $0.02 and assorted pocket lint.

Stac

mightysamurai said...

Forgive my poor attempt at humor, but you did ignore the fact that I did not claim a prior pre-Internet enlightened age.

Yes, you're right, and I apologize. It's just that usually when people make the "this stuff is dividing the country" argument they're operating under this delusion that there was once a time when politics was perfectly civil. I assumed you were arguing the same point, but obviously you weren't. My bad for assuming.

I don't see that the way we use television or the Internet these days facilitates debate and the sharing of ideas in a constructive fashion.

I don't think so either, but then I don't think there has ever been a time when communication was used constructively. IMO the only thing cable news and the internet has done is sped up the un-constructive communication progress. We were just as divided before the internet, the only difference is now we're actually aware of it. The pundits were always there, they just didn't reach a very wide audience until now.

Also, I think you're accentuating the negative here. Yes, many people are nasty and jerkish when communicating over the internet. But many other people are not. You and I are a perfect example. The discussion we're having right now has been quite civil, all things considered. I've been to many different forums all over the net and for every nasty, mean-spirited flame war you can find there's a civil and eloquent discussion going on in another forum. Even on hardcore, dedicated political forums there are plenty of people willing to debate in a nice and pleasant fashion.

Kamen Rider Smythe's Old School Toku blog said...

What'a up Linkara? Yeah I truly agree on your political views *is shot*. Frank Miller's early work was great until the 90s and 2000s. That's when he started declining. By the way, what do you think of 300 the movie?

RocMegamanX said...

First, I'll have to say Linkara pretty much pwned Vic Sage in an intellectual checkmate.

Second, "Samusara"? Where's the "n"? Anyway, Lightbringer isn't the only comic he's made. There's also Revolution of the Mask. Tell me that whole thing about Lightbringer isn't gonna turn into another "Psyweedle" incident. LOL Web of Dimensions. Don't kill me! Bennett brought it up!

Anonymous said...

batman kills Dick Grayson!? 0_o
damn, what batman universe is this book taking place in!? surly not the regular universe (yeah, i know there are many earths and stuff, but i have allways found that multiple earth stuff rather confusing, so i have kinda left it alone, best go check wikipedia or something)

Stian

Alex Stritar said...

"damn, what batman universe is this book taking place in!?"

According to Wikipedea, Earth 36.

samusara said...

RocMegamanX said...
First, I'll have to say Linkara pretty much pwned Vic Sage in an intellectual checkmate.

yea,that's why linkara never answred the wonder women question or the archie comics one. how does linkaras cum taste cockfag fanboy? lol

Anonymous said...

thankies to Alex Stitar for clearing the "earth Nr" question upp for me! :)

Stian

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"yea,that's why linkara never answred the wonder women question or the archie comics one. how does linkaras cum taste cockfag fanboy? lol"

Oh, right, those stupid questions.

Yeah, Wonder Woman's outfit needs a proper update, preferably one more resembling battle armor, like the ones she has worn on several occasions. Also artists need to stop drawing her outfit like it was a thong.

And I wouldn't complain about Betty and Veronica wearing swimsuits because I think someone would be very, very sad if they were looking to Archie comics for tittilation.

TheGoose said...

"Yeah, Wonder Woman's outfit needs a proper update, preferably one more resembling battle armor, like the ones she has worn on several occasions. Also artists need to stop drawing her outfit like it was a thong."

Why would a character who has super human durability need battle armor? I get that sometimes she needs it to fight against tough guys like Ares, but all the time? I don't think she would need it when she fights guys like Angleman. Plus, wouldn't that heavy armor be to heavy and get in the way of fighting a super fast villain like Cheetah?

Personally, I think Diana should stick with her costume. She's had it for over 60 years and the biggest outburst from people (including feminists like Gloria Steinem) concerning her as a character wasn't about the costume, but the fact that DC took her powers away. I think the problems with the costume start when comic artists stop drawing her like a super-heroine and start making her look like a porn star.

RocMegamanX said...

@Lewis

Thanks, Link! Well, Samus, looks like we have closure now.

And I'm a fanboy because I simply get entertained by blog comment conversations like Vic Sage(the smug Miller fan who uses ad hominem insults) vs. Linkara(the guy who hates Miller's post-Sin City work, as well as any stupid comics, like Bimbos in Time)?

But I'll admit one thing. 300 did have some memorable, meme-worthy lines. BTW, Link, for another Miller Time episode, are you planning a review of 300?

mightysamurai said...

Yeah, Wonder Woman's outfit needs a proper update, preferably one more resembling battle armor, like the ones she has worn on several occasions. Also artists need to stop drawing her outfit like it was a thong.

While I don't generally have a problem with skimpy superheroine costumes, I definitely agree with this. If any superheroine could be described as the DC universe's resident feminist, it's Wonder Woman. So it's a little ridiculous that she would be running around in an outfit that seems designed to objectify her. You'd think she of all people would find that sort of thing demeaning. They really ought to change her outfit, for the sake of consistency if nothing else.

I think they should adopt the outfit featured in Matt Wagner's "Trinity" limited series. All he did was extend her bikini into a pair of briefs, but it made a huge difference.

bandazgeek said...

Hey, Linkara. I'm a shortish-time-watcher, first-time-commenter, and in this shortish time I've grown to pretty much love your videos, especially your more recent ones.

...Wait, this comment was supposed to have a point, wasn't it? Oh yeah, I just wanted to say that, like a few others, I admire the way you're keeping your cool with the whole "debate with Vic Sage" thing - I'd've lost patience at him the second time he commented xD

Keep on bein' awesome, Linkara.

Joe Maurone said...

I liked DK2, if only for the Green Arrow/Question debates. ("I'm no Ayn Rander, she didn't nearly go far enough!"). Thanks, Frank!

Kevin said...

Yahtzee's gonna' be pissed. Or relatively amused.

Samusara said...

Lewis Lovhaug said... "yea,that's why linkara never answred the wonder women question or the archie comics one. how does linkaras cum taste cockfag fanboy? lol"

Oh, right, those stupid questions.

Oooh, really classy there Linkara! How dare we disagree with the MIGHTY Lew Lovhaug!

Yeah, Wonder Woman's outfit needs a proper update, preferably one more resembling battle armor, like the ones she has worn on several occasions. Also artists need to stop drawing her outfit like it was a thong.

Ha! And you criticize Cary Kelly for updating the Flash's outfit in DK2! And like the poster above said "Why would she wear battle armor when she has super human durability?". Why would she do that Goose? Because there are some people who are so uncomfortable with a flash of thigh or cleavage. It doesn't matter what a character stands for or their legacy. All that matters is that they cover up so as not to offend.

Hey Lew, why don't you just come out and say to every girl out there to put some clothes on? Stop wearing shorts or tank tops. After all, you don't go to dinner or go shopping to see their barely covered bodies. By all means Lew, tell them they should abandon their right to expression just so that they won't offend you.

And I wouldn't complain about Betty and Veronica wearing swimsuits because I think someone would be very, very sad if they were looking to Archie comics for tittilation.

Ah, a double standard! You're willing to give Archie a pass for scantily clad females yet you take Marvel and DC to task for it? Hypocrisy!

And if you say "Well Archie comics are intended for kids.", the same could be said for comics in general. Now true, certain comics are labelled as 'Mature Audience', but by doing that they give you fair warning that there might be adult concepts such as nudity - and in which case Linkara? Since you don't like that in your comics? You shouldn't be reading it in the first place!

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Oooh, really classy there Linkara! How dare we disagree with the MIGHTY Lew Lovhaug!"

Yes, I'm really the one without class. I simply called it stupid. You called my fans "cockfags." But yes, that question is stupid. I have never insinuated that I give any character a free pass or the like. And frankly there's a difference between showing a woman in a scantily-clad outfit being majestic and kicking ass and having her with pouty lips and giving sexual innuendo.

"Ha! And you criticize Cary Kelly for updating the Flash's outfit in DK2! And like the poster above said "Why would she wear battle armor when she has super human durability?". Why would she do that Goose? Because there are some people who are so uncomfortable with a flash of thigh or cleavage. It doesn't matter what a character stands for or their legacy. All that matters is that they cover up so as not to offend."

I criticize the changed costume because it's STUPID and it serves no purpose, adding yet more padding to an already slow comic. And as for why she should wear battle armor, perhaps you should take a closer look at Wondy in the past two decades - she FREQUENTLY wears battle armor, most recently in her fight against the creature called Genocide. She's super-strong but she isn't invincible. Plus she's part of a culture that values rituals and symbolism, so even if it provides no real additional protection it DOES hold symbolic value, like how any group might have a tradition they perform before going out and doing something. Back in high school when I was in musicals and plays, we'd always sing the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air theme song before every performance. I don't know the reason why we did it, but it got us pumped and ready.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Hey Lew, why don't you just come out and say to every girl out there to put some clothes on? Stop wearing shorts or tank tops. After all, you don't go to dinner or go shopping to see their barely covered bodies. By all means Lew, tell them they should abandon their right to expression just so that they won't offend you."

Because those are living human beings capable of making their own choices, whereas fictional characters are NOT independent, thinking creatures. They are created and controlled by their artists and writers and how those creators express those characters is open to critique, especially when dealing in a medium rife meant to act as modern mythology.

"Ah, a double standard! You're willing to give Archie a pass for scantily clad females yet you take Marvel and DC to task for it? Hypocrisy!"

No, but then again Betty and Veronica don't go out and fight crime in their swimsuits, do they? They go to the BEACH in their swimwear and I would expect swimwear at a beach. And really the point I'm making is that they dron't draw Archie comics to titillate their audience, whereas plenty of artists do, or did you not pay attention to those script bits in All-Star Batman and Robin?

"And if you say "Well Archie comics are intended for kids.", the same could be said for comics in general."

BZZZZ. WRONG-O. The majority of comics are created for an adult audience, with the assumption that they have mature sensibilities... though that will sometimes translate into the writers and artists LACKING adult sensibilities.

"Now true, certain comics are labelled as 'Mature Audience', but by doing that they give you fair warning that there might be adult concepts such as nudity - and in which case Linkara?"

Hey, guess what? A storyline about a year or two ago in Ms. Marvel featured a supervillain who took control of a bunch of female superheroines to sell as mind-controlled sex slaves. The comic where that revelation was made? Rated All-Ages. The storyline following the revelation was rated Teen, meaning 13 and up, which is better, but it sure as hell wasn't "Mature Readers," nor did it handle the subject that maturely. The companies aren't exactly being that thorough with a lot of their work.

"Since you don't like that in your comics? You shouldn't be reading it in the first place!"

Few of the comics I've reviewed here have actually been labeled "For Mature Audiences." The only two off the top of my head are SCI-Spy - which had a nude scene for no adequately explained reason - and Xena #1 - which had nothing in it that was all that different from mainstream comics, so why the mature readers label?

Point is if they're putting it out there and not labeling it properly then I'm going to call them on that. And even if they don't need to, if they do it stupidly, I'll call them on that, too.

I like what I like and I don't what I don't. And if it's crap I'll call it crap.

Samusara said...

Lewis Lovhaug said...

You called my fans "cockfags."

No, I called one of your fans a cockfag. I was 'critiquing' what I perceived to be his blind devotion, just like you critique comics that you perceive are bad. See how having an opinion works? As for my choice of language? Swearing is cool thanks to the AVGN and 4chan, j/k

I criticize the changed costume because it's STUPID and it serves no purpose,

Wonder Woman took punches from the likes of Superman and Mongul. What purpose would armor serve when it would be likely pulverised by one blow? By that same argument? Gee, EVERY superhero should wear armor all the time then and ditch the tights. Remember how stupid it made Spiderman, Daredevil, Batman, and Captain America look?

Plus she's part of a culture that values rituals and symbolism

Oh you're so right. Wonder Woman's mostly red, white, and blue costume with the spangled tights certainly don't evoke any symbolism. I won't even mention about how she used to have an eagle at one time on her chest.

Samusara said...

Because those are living human beings capable of making their own choices, whereas fictional characters are NOT independent, thinking creatures. They are created and controlled by their artists and writers and how those creators express those characters is open to critique, especially when dealing in a medium rife meant to act as modern mythology.

First of all, comics are meant to make money, period. DC or Marvel could care less about any lofty perches you choose to place their creations on, that's your own perception of their creations. After all, when was the last time you saw Zeus or Apollo on a pair of underoos?

Secondly, You're talking out of both sides of your mouth Lew. On one hand you're saying people are free of making their own choices. Doesn't that extend to artists or writers as well then? What use is an artist when we tell them what to draw and how to draw it?

As for them being open to critique? Then again, so is the woman who walks around a mall wearing shorts and a belly shirt. You're arguing in circles.

Betty and Veronica don't go out and fight crime in their swimsuits, do they? They go to the BEACH in their swimwear and I would expect swimwear at a beach.

You mean just like you would expect a comic called "Teenage Super Foxes" to contain stereotypes? Yet that didn't prevent you from going off on it.

they dron't draw Archie comics to titillate their audience

How do you know?

BZZZZ. WRONG-O. The majority of comics are created for an adult audience

Omg, you sound so much like the typical nerd defending his love of something childish.

If comics were created for an adult audience? Then why does DC have Vertigo? Or Marvel the MAX series? Why did Marvel do a 180 on their next few films when parents argued that the Daredevil movie was too dark? Why are there Spiderman and Batman figures in the toy aisle? Why are there Iron Man and X-Men cartoons? Because most comics? Say it with me: Are... for... kids.

Hey, guess what? A storyline about a year or two ago in Ms. Marvel featured a supervillain who took control of a bunch of female superheroines to sell as mind-controlled sex slaves. The comic where that revelation was made? Rated All-Ages. The storyline following the revelation was rated Teen, meaning 13 and up, which is better, but it sure as hell wasn't "Mature Readers," nor did it handle the subject that maturely. The companies aren't exactly being that thorough with a lot of their work.

Okay, fair enough. That comic should have been rated harsher and if I may? That should be an issue you take up in a later review. Perhaps if the CCA were still held in regard? We wouldn't have this problem.

That's one thing I agree with you on - comics should be clearly rated for their content. We do it for movies, video games, and TV shows; comics should be rated as well.

But consider this - speaking of rating comics? For years the CCA saw nothing wrong with the way a majority of female characters were drawn, and this was an organization so uptight that they banned homosexuality and drug references. Take from that what you will.

Alex Stritar said...

Is it me, or is this Link's most controversial review?

(Personally, I have nothing to say within the debate but will continue to watch the bloodshed from the sidelines. (I love flame wars.))

RocMegamanX said...

If comics were created for an adult audience? Then why does DC have Vertigo? Or Marvel the MAX series? Why did Marvel do a 180 on their next few films when parents argued that the Daredevil movie was too dark? Why are there Spiderman and Batman figures in the toy aisle? Why are there Iron Man and X-Men cartoons? Because most comics? Say it with me: Are... for... kids.

They're not always for kids. Watchmen, 300, Sin City, The Boys, Deadpool, Black Summer, Judge Dredd?

Also, Superboy-Prime beating up Mr. Mxzptlk until he puked in Countdown isn't for kids either. Nor is all the killing in that series. Amazons Attack isn't exactly for kids either.

Plus, the Dark Age of Comics crippled the comic book industry, because, as MovieBob/the Game Overthinker stated, it did not cater to all fans of all ages.

Why the toys and cartoons? Because they're popular and they hope to expand it to a wider audience.

Manga are not always for kids either. Need I tell you about Fist of the North Star?

TheGoose said...

"And as for why she should wear battle armor, perhaps you should take a closer look at Wondy in the past two decades - she FREQUENTLY wears battle armor, most recently in her fight against the creature called Genocide."

But, again, Genocide (Speaking of which, Genocide's costume is one that needs a change. She looks like a reject Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.) and Ares are big, big threats. Wondy would need armor for those type of villains, but not for lesser foes like Dr. Poison and the Silver Swan.

"Plus she's part of a culture that values rituals and symbolism, so even if it provides no real additional protection it DOES hold symbolic value, like how any group might have a tradition they perform before going out and doing something."

And her regular costume doesn't hold symbolic value for her culture?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"And her regular costume doesn't hold symbolic value for her culture?"

Depends on which reboot you're reading. ^_~ Originally it was the tradition of wearing the colors of the nation you're dealing with, like what happened when returning Steve Trevor to America. I think in the Perez reboot that was modified to... something Greek, I can't recall. Somethnig about white stars on blue not being an invention of America.

TheGoose said...

"I think in the Perez reboot that was modified to... something Greek, I can't recall. Somethnig about white stars on blue not being an invention of America."

Perez's idea was that a female American solider (who also happened to be Steve Trevor's mom) landed on Paradise Island and gave her life for the Amazons when they were fighting a demon. When they buried her, they saw the American symbol on her uniform and, thinking it was Ms. Trevor's coat of arms, made a costume with the colors.

Going from Secret Orgins in 52, all DC said about the costume was that it belonged to a famous Amazonian heroine.

Regardless of the origin, her costume does hold enough symbolic value.

Anonymous said...

Samusara, dude. CHILL OUT.

This is the problem with comic book artists/writers: the large majority of comic readers are males in their teens, and presumably straight and fan-service lovers. When most of the Superheroines look like they're straight out traced from porn mags, you have to realize that this is an admission of "Sorry, we can't make a superheroine interesting with just her personality, and such. I guess we'll have to make her superhot and giver her stripper outfits."

Yeah, while there are indeed nearly naked men out in some comics, THOSE ARE FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN. Like one "naked" guy for every.... three hundred "naked" women.

And that's being generous. It seems like almost every woman in comics are barely dressed. Like every one seriously. It's not fraking realistic that every woman in Marvel or DC is a model who doesn't like to wear clothes.

Please get over yourself Miller-fanboy. Frank Miller was great, but is not anymore. GET OVER IT. Just because Miller can "write" and "illustrate" his own "works" doesn't mean that he's top-fraking dog. Bringing down "Lightbringer" for it's art is just embarrassing. For you. You missed the point where it's Linkara's take on superheroes. THE PARALLELS BETWEEN HIS CHARACTERS AND THE REAL ONES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OBVIOUS.

Get a life.

End on line.

Melanee Wood said...

I know this is semi-not related here, but after watching this again I was wondering what is a plot cul de sac? Sorry a brief moment of ignorance here, but what does it mean?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

Well, a cul-de-sac is a type of street where, at the end of the road, it's a big circular chunk of road with houses all around... but it doesn't lead anywhere, it's a dead end and your only option is to turn around.

A plot cul-de-sac is where a plot element is introduced as if it's going somewhere, but just ends up being a dead end with nowhere to go. In the case of the V for Vendetta movie, it was the introduction of the plot point that the government manufactured a terrorist plot. Its introduction is pointless. It does nothing to change the story nor does it lead to anything else in the story.

Melanee Wood said...

Hmm, I should of thought of it that way, but was a bit confused about the term's definition. But anyway, thank you for clearing that up. ;)

Inanna said...

The review itself was great. But reading the comments? That was just amazing. I know you heard plenty of this while the arguments were going, but damn, that was some fine debating there, Mr. Lovhaug. I am in awe.

The one with Vic Sage was particularly nice in terms of reasonable debate, but with Samusara you deserve high commendation for not sinking to his level. I would have lost my temper about two posts into that, I think.

Keep on being awesome, Linkara.

Ether said...

Frank Miller's bad comics and overused cliches of whores, repetitions of phrase, sexualizing women for the titillation of the male reader, not following what the canon character is supposed to act like, pointless political satire, and a bunch of other cliches that I don't feel like typing have inspired me to write something that lampoons Frank Miller for the lulz.

Entitled "Millerland", about a man comes back to America from some unnamed country in Europe, only to find such cliches have engulfed the entire nation, and slowly, the man himself is succumbing to this plague. =P I don't know if I'm going to type it or not, but if I do, well... I don't know. I don't know whether or not I'm going to be a whore by sending it to you considering that I do not want to waste your time... although I'm wasting your time now with this gratutiously long comment.

By the way, Dark Knight Strikes Again sucks. Who knew?

Henry Mills said...

Does anyone else think of Warrior when he was reading the actual comic? Seriously, I was expecting someone to say Hoke Hogan whenever he started reading.

Anonymous said...

Here is something wierd with the video: after about a minute it cuts to abvertisement which repeats itself ad infinitum. Please, do something with it.

Ming said...

It's so sad. Miller lost his edge with Dark Knight Strikes Again. Frankly, I rather read All Star Batman and Robin than this trash. The satire is not even funny.

TimeTravelerJessica said...

Okay, I love Batman too but why do all these writers feel the need to derail characters just to make him look even more awesome? (I'm looking at you Frank Miller and ... guy who wrote JLA: Act of God whose name escapes me) He's awesome enough as it is, you don't have to derail everyone else to do it, and besides, writers who do that kind of thing usually end up writing him as kind of a dick. (And downright psychotic in the case of this comic and ASBAR.) The awesomeness is somewhat diminshed if the story is written in such a way that you can't like the guy.

PekoponTAS said...

Dear lord. Seeing this sort of treatment to Batman always makes me cringe. Frank Miller needs to be locked in a cell, given a copy of "Batman The Complete Animated Series", and not be allowed to leave until he's watched every episode and taken detailed notes as to how Batman is supposed to behave.

Anonymous said...

you know i got in to batman comics from this and now i fell sad

Anonymous said...

This sort of treatment of Batman hurts my enjoyment of the character. Also, I actually saw somebody look this thing on youtube and notes that the story is really more so about Superman than Batman and would have been better off focusing on Superman, and Miller felt like forcing in Batman.

Anonymous said...

Lex Luthor looks just like Detective Liebowitz. Miller, how about coming up with a new body type?