Monday, March 4, 2013

March of the Titans: Team History



March of the Titans begins with a look at the history of the team! From the swingin' sixties through the New Teens of the 80s!



The team history concludes with the Titans Hunt and the underrated 1996 team! ‎

122 comments:

fomanchen said...

thanks...
i have waited for this....

jenbrait said...

Interesting history lesson. I'm wondering though, are Thunder and Lighting going to make an appearience? Lighting was my favoret titan in the animated series (dispite him and Thunder only making one major appearence and then small cameos near the end)and I'm curious of their origins?

James Picard said...

I thought you said this wouldn't be funny. Could've fooled me. Anyways, as a fan of the TV show who never got quite into DC's comic books themselves, this is actually pretty interesting to me. Plus, it's more entertaining than looking it up on a wiki.

Anonymous said...

hooray for editorial mandate!

Nathaniel Towns said...

These was pretty funny and entertaining episodes.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Interesting history lesson. I'm wondering though, are Thunder and Lighting going to make an appearience? Lighting was my favoret titan in the animated series (dispite him and Thunder only making one major appearence and then small cameos near the end)and I'm curious of their origins?"

Unfortunately, I decided to skip over them since while they did appear a few times throughout the Titans history, they really were not significant enough to mention. The same goes for Wally West's girlfriend and a few other characters.

Doug Puthoff said...

Interesting stuff, though you had at least two chances to bring in 90s Kid, but you blew it! Can't wait for next week's installment!

Flamedragoon10 said...

A very entertaining episode to be sure. As a fan of the show, it is very cool to see what things were the same or different in the comics. One thing I am curious about is when you mentioned that Nightwing let Danny go after hearing about the death of Jason Todd. Was there ever a point where Dick and Jason talked with each othe about stuff after Jason's return?

jenbrait said...

"Unfortunately, I decided to skip over them since while they did appear a few times throughout the Titans history, they really were not significant enough to mention. The same goes for Wally West's girlfriend and a few other characters."

Understandable, thanks for at least answering. =D

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Was there ever a point where Dick and Jason talked with each othe about stuff after Jason's return?"

Unfortunately not, since when Jason returned he was pretty much in straight villain mode and was focused mostly in the Batman books. Whenever the two encountered each other later, it was fighting or the awful Bruce Jones Nightwing arc.

Anonymous said...

I was wondering if you are planning on one day reviewing any comics from Devin Grayson’s god-awful run on Nightwing. You referenced part of it in this review when talking about a different rape of the character (and thank you for calling it rape, you would be surprised how many people try and defend it by calling it different thing). That and the mass killing of supporting characters are the two things I hate the most about any comic, and she did both.

Anonymous said...

I really enjoyed the episode. Your passion really came through and it makes me care about the Titans. Cause I never really read any Titans book. Its like me and Green Lantern. Rebirth was my fist entry into comics and opened my eyes to the rest of comics. So I have the same passion for that. Which begs a very important question:

Dose Geoff Johns dip into the same crazy pills that Frank Miller is hook on every once and awhile? He is so good at writing some characters yet fails so many others. He needs to just stick to Green lantern and leave the wrest of the DCU alone.

Anonymous said...

is this all gonna be on the test?

Kid Wicked said...

When there's trouble, you know who to call!
TEEN TITANS!
From their tower, they can see it all!
TEEN TITANS!
When there's evil on the attack
You can rest knowing they got your back
Cause when the world needs heroes on patrol

TEEN TITANS, GO!
TEEN TITANS, GO!

Jesse said...

Awesome, just awesome. The New teen Titans got me into comics too.

March is going to be a great month:D

Anyone00 said...

Ah man, that bit about Raven leaving the good part of her soul would have been a perfect place to include 'my favorite type of magic' line from The Witcher 2.

Scampi said...

Loved mishearing this:

10:50 in the 1st vid:

"He was renamed 'tourette star...'"

Rabbi Joe said...

I'm a DC guy, but I never got into the Titans. I really enjoyed this retrospective. However, I did read Darkstars, and Donna Troy showing up there was certainly one of the most profoundly bizarre moments, tied with when Jon Stewart joined. Was it supposed to be the Hero Relocation Program?

Micro4 said...

i must say for a serious look at the Titans you were still quite funny. The Batman joke although the most predictable was still damn funny.

Anonymous said...

When you were talking about the cartoon's end, were you referring to the series finale or Trouble in Tokyo?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"When you were talking about the cartoon's end, were you referring to the series finale or Trouble in Tokyo?"

Well, think about it for a second - was Terra in Trouble in Tokyo?

Anonymous said...

Troya sounds like the italian word "troia" wich means whore. :D

firelordzero said...

I found this really interesting. I like when people do retrospectives.

One thing that I disagree on though is your analysis of the finale of the show. I understand that for a kids show it's a little out of place, but I thought the theme of the episode (that things and people change and we need to accept that and move past them) was extremely smart and is an issue an actual teenagers have to deal with. I thought it was a fitting way to end the series by showing how much Beat Boy had grown as a character.

Now of course Trouble in Tokyo undid a lot of that character development, but taken on its own I thought "Things Change" was a perfect ending to a wonderful series.

Gonzo said...

The first DC comic I ever owned was Teen Titans #2 from the 60s run, and my favorite comics ever are the Wolfman/Perez incarnation of the team, so the Titans mean a lot to me. In other words, March is gonna be AWESOME. :D

Also, Terra was 16 when she died, though I just bring it up because I'm a nitpicker and not because it makes things any less creepy. Because it really, really doesn't.

Anonymous said...

I'm echoing the "interesting history lesson" crowd. A bit overwhelming to the end, though, to keep up with all the renames and recostumes, so not new-reader-friendly. Do they keep complicated charts who they encountered in what persona and under what circumstances. OTOH, just imagine if this were the superhero version of sockpuppet accounts :-)

Also echoing the love for Nightwings epic Disco!costume. Heroes nowadays just can't pull off these kinds of collars :D

And last - whenever you are raving about how revealing the costumes of female heroes are or how sexist their poses, lately I've begun to imagine contributions to Hawkeye Initiative. The comic industry won't change timely enough to hold their market share (just my opinion), and it is more bearable for me to giggle my frustration out than to feel depressed. (Have you even heard of HI? I feel like everyone seen at least some pictures from that tumblr, but of course my sample is biased.)

-greenbean-

harmonicajay said...

In relation to Danny being your favorite hero, it kind of reminds me of my liking Jason Todd. I have reasons. I see a bit of myself in Jason, mainly his anger. I grew up angry myself and if it wasn't for my parents trying to help me, I would have ended up like Jason, minus being Red Hood. Jason is the kind of kid that people give up on after trying to help once. I am not that kind of person. I am sorry that this has nothing to do with the rest of your vid.

Johns' run on the Titans was actually my first big exposure outside the TV show. I am interested to see more of your favorite run. I personally feel that Geoff works better with Blank Slate characters like the JSA. He may be my favorite writer of all time, but even I admit he has his shortcomings *Cough* Justice League and Wonder Woman *Cough*. I feel he shouldn't have taken up another team book.

I had no clue that so much crap had taken place prior to the Technus Imperative. And I thought it was only recently that the Titans kept getting screwed over. Great episode. Can't wait for more.

Doresh said...

Very informative. I like it when this show turns into Comic History Channel XD

But who needs all this character development and history if you can just reboot everything for a short-term sales increase (<_<) ?

And really, the current Teen Titans desperately need any color that is not black, red or gold.

Oh, and television? Don't really watch it either. German television has become weird...

PopCultureOtaku said...

The current Teen Titans is bad. One of the reasons being that this is suppose to be first team. Let alone characters act so worse then ever did because post Reboot DC has to have all the characters in bad ways. Yeah they are fun but look what happens to them. Of course if DC tried to say there was another Titans before then they have to explain the disappearance of Donna and Wally. They are to busy trying to they ever existed while pushing characters like Zealot (Wildcats) lookalike Pandora.
90s team is what got me into teen titans. I think start reading Titans during the Titans Hunt. Yeah that wasn't fun or Raven destroying the Nightwing/Starfire wedding. Team Titans was pretty good to me but I haven't read it in years.
I loved the Teen Titans cartoon. It felt true to comics but same time creating something original. I mean who could believe you could do Raven story arc or Terra in a kid show. They found a way and it worked mostly. Young Justice is another good type of teen titans comic/cartoon. Which is somewhat being replaced by Teen Titans Go. Cheap titan version of Teen Titans from previous cartoon. Now if it was full revival I be for it but we get something worked for shorts but probably not a cartoon. Thankfully Terra episode wasn't really end to toon. The end of cartoon was Tokyo movie.
By the way reboot Deathstroke series was the second he had. His first one in 90s last three times as long reboot one. 60 issues and 4 annuals. Was probably way better then the reboot. Never read it.
Donna and Kyle wasn't so bad but they didn't have to kill off Donna's ex husband and kid for it. WTF? Yeah editorial mandates. If the editors want the write book, just write the damn thing themselves. Maybe they should busy making continuity is correct or books come on time or there is no errors in the book or even make sure crossover events are tied together as suppose to be. No DC editors think they are the ones that should be writing it at times.
God Damage. I liked him as a character and his book wasn't to bad. The problem is when Geoff Johns wrote the character he used him punching bag. Destroying his face and then teasing a romance just to have him killed off stupidly in Blackest Night.
1996 team was good. Argent despite the costume issues was actually a cool character. Was around titans off and on for years till the reboot.
Just watching this video reminds me how titans were killed unnecessarily in last 10 years. Seriously titans members were just punching bag for geoff johns and others whenever they need someone to kill off during a big event. Frustrating even more all this stuff in the videos was erased in reboot.

Saxon Myers said...

I got into comics that same way. I only knew about them from the Marvel and DC cartoons that aired in the 90s. I read a few comics before actually getting into them with a team book that came out a few years before The Titans. That would be JLA. Specifically, Grant Morrison's run.

Also, it's interesting how DC revamped all of their major teams in the late 90's. The Justice League of America became JLA, the Justice Society of America became JSA and the Teen Titans became Young Justice and The Titans.

Sekele said...

My first comic was the 1999 Spiderman relaunch (back when Marvel re-numbered all of their titles back to #1)

Anonymous said...

"But who needs all this character development and history if you can just reboot everything for a short-term sales increase "

Because many potential readers tend to be discouraged by decades of backstory

Theozilla said...

Interesting history lesson on the team. Never realized how messy the teams got during the early 90s in terms of story and editorial. I will be very interested in the upcoming videos as the late 90s Titans series has always been a big unknown to me (beyond the "Graduation Day" storyline) as Geoff Johns Teen Titans run was my first big exposure to the team in comics and my favorite run (the animated series was my first exposure to the Titans mythos in general so it implicitly made me familiar with the 80s material).

jason todd said...

Fantastic video at4w as always. I tried getting into the older titans stuff before Geoff John's run but it just paled in comparison to me except Young Justice which I really enjoyed. Geoff Johns Teen Titans run is my favourite and quite possibly my favorite comic run of all time. Have you checked out Avengers Academy? It's pretty freaking awesome. Also hopefully Scott Lobdell gets booted outta my Teen Titans and Barry slips and accidently cracks the speedforce and free all the previous titans history and all the other titans. I wish they got Greg Weisman or Andrew Heinsburg(?) to write New 52 Teen Titans

thorondragon said...

i never liked that whole becomign evil thing. it never really works out. makes slightly more sense with raven, her demonic side ocvercoming her senses, over the likeso f jericho and so on. evil is a choice, not some kind of sickness or something you suddenly totally become.
actually it makes me think about the young jsutice series. i think it kind of makes a parralel here, having a character Pretend to go evils to infiltrate the villains. was actually pretty clever.

i think in the end there are some versions of the titans i prefer as their animated counterparts. starfir and her counterpart similar enough, andi have to say i prefered the original forms of cyborg and robin over the cartoon, though beastboy i think was hilarious and cool.

however i liked the aniamted raven over the comic one. she is interesting, the comic, but the animated raven had a tad bit mroe to her. she acutalyl struggled with being half demon, and her personality was much more like one who has to surpress their emotions. her spite made sense cause she could not let herself feel any true emotion or her powers would react.
also the nature of the powers made it that she could lose control and not be pure evils because of it. she would lose all sense of herself and yet focused it on a target. much to the horror of poor doctor light.... yeah he had a hard time in the comics, but at least he wasn't mauled and tramatized by a fifteen year old goth chick that went chthulu on his ass.

actually i think that they could have gone further with her character. make the struggle between her inner demon and herself more intense. actually i was always hoping in the series that it would turn out that her inner evil was not an extension of trigon, like it is in the comics, but its own entity that she has ot overcome.
i think that it could be cool to combine these two ravens in a sense. the nture of the pwoers of the animated raven, and some of that lovable deadpanery, with the primarily empathic skills of comic raven and more of her compassion.
with terra i loved both version equally. the monster that was born from a teen with far too much power and no source of morals, and the scared girl who was a monster not because of evil intent but because she could not control her own power, and was not too stable in the head because of it. two technically tragic creatures, albeit the latter more sympathetic than the prior.
that ending was also frustrating. grrrrrrs!!!

very good and informative video. and a lot more funny than you were letting on. lols.

actually i have my own variation of that idea. it the factor of whether evil is sexy or evil is ugly. originalyl it became evil was ugly with raven, as her degradation into darkness made her look more sickily, then they tried to go for sexy with her being practicalyl naked.
another example would be... well a lot of the females of batman gallery. poinson ivy, harley quin, and many others. it seems that aspect becomes more popular though as time goes by.
a male version of ugly would be Darkseid, albeit it is less that he is hard to look at and more he is one badass scary motherfucker.

starwars kinda had the idea of good is beautiful, evil is ugly to the point. ableit with them it is because the factors of the darkside had a degradory effect on their users, either effecting their health, causing them to disregard hygiene perhaps because of a crack like obsession, or even because their actions end up getting them mutilated.

Biollante2000Millenium said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Biollante2000Millenium said...

Realy Good Video(s) about an interesting team which was more than just some scrambled toghether second-rate characters.

But I would have a question. Do you think you liked the Teen Titants that much because you were young too, or would you have liked 'em even when you were an older reader? I know, not an easy question, but it would interest me how you think about that.
Sorry for the bad Gramma an such, english isn'T my mother tounge :-)

Ryan Bates said...

Hey Linkara? Awesome retrospective.

Your review could've used a bit more love for George Perez's work though, just sayin'. The man defines what superhero art should be.

On a similar note, review both issue's of George Perez's Crimson Plague. When the protagonist DiNA goes menstrual, she releases airborne toxins that can decimate an entire planet.

The premise is perfect fodder for AT4W, yet both issues are amazing because, well, George Perez is writing and illustrating them.

Yay said...

Hmm... I don't know much about the Titans but this would be a good time to learn about them. I wonder why I see shadow of Maxwell Lord from Danny Chase but(even though this would be over reaction) I think that it's some thing to do with the fact that arrogance, pigheadedness and super power could yield terrifying result even with good intention.

Well, I am not quite sure if this count toward Editorial Mandate, but one of the New 52 OMAC's writer happens to be Dan DiDio who is editor (and as far as I know one of the force behind reboot in 2011)/write and greatly screwed off OMAC, Brother EYE and MAX FREAKING WELL LORD, instead focused on rather choppy and incoherent story about Mr. Kho which felt more like an distraction from (potentially epic but ended up weak) confrontation between Max Lord and Bro EYE. I see no hope for DC, at least for this cycle.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

I first heard of the Teen Titans when I was a teen myself. It was at first the animated series, which I didn't really like at first because I didn't know the other characters except Robin. However it grew on me and I now watch them every chance I get be it on TV or more shady methods like youtube. However the first Titans comic I read I was hesitant at first because they looked different from the ones I watched from the show. It was in a high school library, and it was the Judas Contract. I was confused already. Some of the Titans on the cover I recognizes, Raven wasn't hard to miss, BB had a different outfit and Starfire to my shock had an even more revealing outfit, Weird science style hair and a bigger set of.....talent. I am not even just saying that for the entendre, she wasn't a complete airhead like the show and she never tapdanced around her love for Robin. What really surprised me was Terra though. As like you said in the show she was a tragic villain, not a complete monster. When I read it though I liked Comic Terra better than Cartoon Terra because she was their Joker. It was also the first comic I was remotely interested in. I had a few before such as the Spiderman edition that had him fight the Lizard controlled by a voodo witch, but this was what got me into comics in the first place. Also of all the characters save for Robin. My personal favorite was Raven. I did some digging around after reading to find out what she really could do when I found out about her empathic abilities. This hit me close to home, because despite a few rough patches I had, many of my family often told me that I had a severe empathic personality. That I could empathize with even the worst of people and see the good they do and do my best to show it. This comic may have been one the things that saved my life. To be honest not many people where I live have either heard of or liked the Titans. Lewis, thank you for proving me wrong in that department.

That aside I was never bothered by Chase or Terry. I liked how there was a normal guy that knew superheroes and even married to one. As for Chase I never knew anyone hated him. Then again I never knew anyone hated Justin in Turbo. However that being said I notice a pattern. Has Wolfman or Perez ever worked on Power Rangers in their life? Because either they have or someone in the Zordon Era loves the Titans.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

And Starfire making out with Raven? Wow....just wow. I know it was crucial to the plot but I think this helps further sort of an ongoing theory I have been thinking of. When Raven was free of Trigon's influence she was able to use her emotions for the first time and because Dick never left her side during their capture by Brother Blood, she sorta developed a hero worship for him which she mistaken for true love. She inadvertently made him think he was in love with her. Starfire straightened her out and spent time with her helping her understand the difference between certain loves. (Platonic, romantic, surrogate etc.) Now there was an ongoing debate on whether or not she was confused, or genuinely in Love with Nightwing. Now I might be the only one to view this but whenever I see a character turn evil that was good. I only see them, without their inhibitions. In the case of Raven no matter how ridiculous it was at the time, she crashed the wedding between Dick and Kori. On the outside it seemed like an evil thing to do. But I look deeper than that and think "Her feelings for Dick were genuine, but without her inhibitions she is pretty much trying to steal Dick away from Kori." To be honest I never read a full issue of that particular comic so I didn't know she kissed Kori too. While on the outside it seems fodder for slash fic-ers to me it makes me think "Well they did spend an awful lot of time in Tahiti, maybe in thanks to Kori helping her on emotion she probably has some kind of love for her." So when I see this I come to the conclusion that she is or was in love with Dick and Kori, but her inhibitions stopped her from acting out on it. Kinda makes me wonder if she was into Bigamy, but Joking aside. I believe before BB became main love interest that her first true loves were Dick and Kori. I mean they were the only ones that listened to her when the other Titans found out what she did to Kid Flash and they have tried their hardest to try to find a way to save her without killing her.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

Still that being said I disagree with your Raven is a jerk thing. Don't get me wrong you have valid points but I counter it with "Zatanna is a bitch." She went to the Justice League first to ask for help in beating Trigon. Zatanna was team leader at the time and she told them no. Which is understandable. Sure Raven could have told them but judging by the issues there was little time. Not only that but she did establish herself as a good person by helping Cyborg and his dad Reconcile. However through further reading Zatanna pretty much turned the Titans against her mere seconds from Trigon's arrival. Which is more understandable. However upon defeating Trigon Raven did do the best she could to make up for it in ways she could they in return help her settle into a normal life enrolling her in school. However Zatanna, not once has she ever taken voice bubble space to say her own apologies to Raven and if there is comments that suggest otherwise I will happily retract that statement. I searched through almost every titan comic and JLA comic involving her. Some of which where Zatanna worked with the Titans and not once has she said "Sorry for nearly screwing the world over." Or some variation. Raven may have been a jerk for holding some info, but she was at least trying to make up for her part of it. Zatanna on the other hand I have no sympathy for and her mind wipe in Identity Crisis, as well as her trying to steal Clark away from Lois in the Smallville series, further increases my hatred for that person. Oh and I don't say she's a bitch because she is a woman either. Every action she did in terms of ID crisis Titans and Smallville pretty much puts gives a whole new meaning of the word. They should have her picture in Websters dictionary.

Aldo512 said...

""But who needs all this character development and history if you can just reboot everything for a short-term sales increase "

Because many potential readers tend to be discouraged by decades of backstory"

I will never get that idea. Hell, I got into reading comics just last year with Blackest Night. Does knowing the backstory help? Yes, but part of what I liked about it was that it made me want to see that backstory. Things like why Batman is dead or why there were two Flashes didn't confuse me, it just made me more interested in reading more about it. Of course, by then the reboot had already happened, so most of the things I was interested in no longer happened or matter, but still. Backstory becomes a danger only when you rely on it too much and make a series that's completely incomprehensible without reading what came before it, like Legion of Superheroes and Legion Lost after the reboot.

Lizard-Man said...

I'm guessing you skipped the "Raven thinks she loves Nightwing" plot cause you didn't want to get bogged down in romance plots.

Regardless, I fell the need to ask this cause you did bring up Star and Dick and you said there was stuff about the Johns run you disliked.

What were your opinions on Beast Boy and Raven?

I mean I think you touched upon them in a written follow-up review to Titans #1 but I can't find the thing. All I remember is you making a crack about Raven's crazy "CAUSE i'M WRONG!" face, which admitedly was kinda screwed up.

I don't want to start a shipper debate, I just kinda wanna know what your opinions on that were and how it was done in the book. Especially since you won't be talking about it.

This was a good retrospective, and although you said it wouldn't be as funny I still found your frustration at downward spiral of the that started in the Wildebeast arc hilarious.

Lord Harlock said...

Quote Rabbi Joe

"I'm a DC guy, but I never got into the Titans. I really enjoyed this retrospective. However, I did read Darkstars, and Donna Troy showing up there was certainly one of the most profoundly bizarre moments, tied with when Jon Stewart joined. Was it supposed to be the Hero Relocation Program?"

Actually, I can answer that one. As you may or may not recall, the Darkstar organization was part of the Controllers' Empire of Businesses and Regulator Agencies. As some of you may or may not know, the Controllers are Malthusians offshoots, the same species as the Guardians. However, where the Guardians use their Green Lanterns to spread order. The Controllers spread order and charge cash for their services.

Anyhow, that was the jest of Darkstars except Hal Jordan decided to get rid of those darn emotionless Guardians in "Emerald Twilight", and it left a vacuume in space cops in DC Comics. Thus, the Controllers went about recruiting anyone with experience to give their organization more legitimacy and charge more I guess.

So, their efforts lead to Donna Troy and John Stewart getting Darkstar uniforms.

Later when sales went down, the Controllers decided that the Darkstars weren't making enough money, so they cancelled the whole organization.

Honestly, I'm a bit shocked about someone else liking the Dan Jurgens' Teen Titans. I honestly thought that I was the only one.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"What were your opinions on Beast Boy and Raven?"

I think it would have been very much worth exploring and seeing how things went with it, with a rather introverted character vs. one who is boisterous and emotional creating an interesting dynamic to work iwth.

It's a pity that they never actually DID anything with it. It just... didn't go anywhere.

rdfox said...

To Firelordzero: The producers on Teen Titans said that "Trouble in Tokyo" was actually set between seasons 4 and 5 of the series, hence BB's regression, and Robin and Starfire being a bit less pussyfooting around in S5.

And man. The Titans got me into superhero comics, too, Lewis. I'd read a few books, like the Spidey/Doc Ock PSA sent to dentists' offices in the early 80s, the Supergirl "wear seat belts!" PSA from just before Crisis (yes, there's a trend here), a couple random issues that a friend who owned a comic shop sent me as gifts, and the Death of Superman trade that my Dad got me, but I'd never really gotten hooked on them. I thoroughly enjoyed the Timmverse cartoons, but they never got me to start reading the books--it wasn't until the Titans cartoon showed up that I found myself so interested in the characters that I started digging into the comics to learn more about them. While I was surprised by the differences, the Wolfman/Perez run was so strong that I got hooked and started reading current books featuring them... which, through crossovers, led me to other characters I liked, and so on.

Ironically, the reboot ended up saving me a lot of money, because I had *really* gotten to love Starfire as a character in the old DCU. So as a result, RHatO #1 was the first--and to date, only--book of any sort (not just comics) that I actually got so pissed off at that I threw it across the room halfway through... considering the number of books I'd already dropped, that rage drove me to drop virtually everything else...

Fusionater said...

I love the series, and I've been meaning to check out the original comics for a while now...I think I might wait until you've finished up march before I decide where to start. ;)

By the way, based on the way you talk about what you'd think people who like the show are expecting...would it be good to ascertain that you don't like the show? If you don't...that's fine, but every time you bring it up, it almost seems as though you are being condescending to those who do enjoy it...is that intentional?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"By the way, based on the way you talk about what you'd think people who like the show are expecting...would it be good to ascertain that you don't like the show? If you don't...that's fine, but every time you bring it up, it almost seems as though you are being condescending to those who do enjoy it...is that intentional?"

...Did you miss the part where I said it was good and I liked it?

My irritation is in people asking me if I'm going to cover it even though I keep making it explicitly clear what the focus of this month is.

10reapaer01 said...

There's actually a really interesting point in Red Hood #17 (reading it because it ties with Death of the Family Aftermath). Jason and the gang end up at Wayne Manor, and he goes to talk with Dick for a bit. From the way he's speaking, Dick implies that he knows Starfire from some time in the past. Either that means there was an incarnation of the Titans before the new one (the current members not being aware of it) or Scott Lobdell can't keep his own continuity straight.

Sijo said...

"March of the Titans" is off to a great start. I actually got to read many of these comics on my own- I was there for the New Teen Titans debut in the 80s, and they are still some of my favorite comics to this day. Unfortunately due to comics becoming more difficult to find around these parts (Puerto Rico) later on, I missed most of the stuff on the second half of your review... though after watching your commentary, I'm almost glad of it.

Looking forth to the rest of the reviews, especially your reactions to the pointless killing of Titans over the years (Damn, I hate what Geoff Jones has done, overall, to he DC universe. It doesn't help things that anytime I try to criticize him, rabid fans of his verbally attack me. Ok, he has done some good stuff, especially in Green Lantern, but that's no excuse to ignore his flaws either.)

Starman said...

Good stuff, but I think you got things slightly out of order vis a via: Donna Troy and Terry Long's break-up and Donna and Kyle Rayner starting to date. I broke it down by month and Kyle had just gotten the ring the month before Terry and Donna broke up. I don't think there were even plans to put Kyle on the Titans at that point, much less to hook him up with Donna.

Regardless, I always liked Kyle/Donna, which is weird because my first comic was the one where Donna dumped Kyle after hearing about Terry and Robert dying. What got me interested in the relationship was an issue towards the end of the Marz run which I think is one of the few comics that ever explored how screwed up relationships can get in a universe with superpowers.

The basic gist of the issue is that Donna shows up at Kyle's first big art show - something that doesn't sit well with Jade, who Kyle was dating at the time. Kyle, being Kyle, agrees to talk to Donna alone and starts realizing just how much Donna has changed because of the recent events regarding Dark Angel running her sole through the ringer and nearly erasing her from the time stream completely, saved only due to a copy of Wally West's memories of her.

That's the key right there - Wally's memories. Wally was there for a lot of Donna's life, but not everything. Heck, I don't think he was even in her Top 5 closest friends as far as the Titans went. So the Donna that came back - while having all of Donna's essential sweetness and wonderfulness and everything else...well, she didn't remember the photographer that Kyle knew was her favorite when they dated. She didn't remember ANYTHING about their time together, except that they were together and that she loved him.

It's heartbreaking for everyone involved. It sucks for Kyle because the woman he loved and the woman who mentored him in how to be a hero in a lot of ways is - for all intents and purposes - dead. The phrase "you're not the woman I fell in love with" has never been more appropriate. And how much does it suck for Donna, having feelings for a stranger but not understanding why and no longer having the common point of reference that brought them together in the first place?



Lizard-Man said...

"I think it would have been very much worth exploring and seeing how things went with it, with a rather introverted character vs. one who is boisterous and emotional creating an interesting dynamic to work iwth.

It's a pity that they never actually DID anything with it. It just... didn't go anywhere."

Huh, thats a fair assesment. I was eternally frustrated with how much they teased things in the comics, had them kiss and all that, and yet something always came along that threw it out the window. I guess I'm happy they sorta said "Here they're back together" near the reboot... but its kind of a hollow victory when the new 52 came around.

I still like what I got, how little it was, but you are sadly right. They never really went anywhere with it beyond them trying to get together and then breaking up and then getting back together and... yeah.

Well thanks for answering my query.

Jason said...

My primary exposure to the Teen Titans universe was the cartoon (which was a lot of fun) so it’s neat to see the original source material. The only Teen Titans comic I ever bought was actually the X-Men/New Teen Titans crossover. Having been a Marvel fan way more than a DC fan, I never got into any of the titles, though if I did, I might pick this one.

Also, for those who don’t know, Deathstroke is also a 90s example of a comic book character who Rob Liefeld decided to rip off, um, pay homage too. Hint, Deadpool’s actual name is “Wade Wilson.”

JB said...

I wonder if March of the Titans will include Graduation day, a mini-series that concluded The Titans and kicked off Geoff Johns team.
My first Titan comic was a paperback collecting New Tee Titans 24-25 and Tales of the New Teen Titans 4. Since in France the editors were publishing issues without following any chronology, it was probably one of the first DC comic from the 80s I read. These issues were quite different from the DC comics I had read before. First page opens with a Superman who lost half of his powers (Supes was split in 2 by demonic wizards), Cyborg with his limbs destroyed and a group of aliens (the Omega Men). It was probably the most continuity heavy comic I read at the time, and made me track down the Superman, Omega Men and Teen Titans issues that explained how they got here (+ the Omega Men issues that included the Titans Annual and concluded the story)
Furthermore, that story was quite complex, more than expected for a series called Teen Titans : interstellar war, torture, slavery, eldritch gods (X'Hal), interstellar war, a hero (Starfire) hell-bent on killing for revenge and actually executing a villain on panel while escaping, at a time when I perceived DC comics as goofy or simplistic.

arw1985 said...

Nice episodede. I did not know that the Titans' history could be that convoluted. I came to like the Titans throught the TV show and Geoff Johns' relaunch. On my blog, Random Thoughts, I looked at all of the GJ'ed penned issues of that run of the Titans.

So I got two questions:

1. What don't you like about his run (specifically his run)? Is it Bart's sudden growth to Kid Flash or Superboy's constant whining about being a clone of Luthor?

2. I have thought about looking at the rest of teh issues after Johns' run. Is it worth it?

Cat C said...

Been so excited for this and was very pleased, even if it was joke light, as you'd mentioned it would be.

I know you like to screw with expectations but thank you for doing the 'and if your hands were metal, that would mean something,' MST line.

I can see why you like Danny Chase, minus the fainting over blood, a lot of the things you mentioned reminded me very much of the things that got mentioned about Avon from Blake 7. Since being introduced to Blake 7 from your comic review awhile back (I knew of it's existence but not much else) I've come to really like Avon and I get a feeling I would like Danny Chase as well.

It was very awesome to learn about the Titans, and I give you much kudos for being able to keep so much of their history straight over the years.

As someone who also knows them mostly from the animated series it was neat to see what was the same and what was different. I don't think I'll be the only one to say I think I like the animated Terra a lot better.

Beast Boy was my favorite from the animated series and I think I'd like him in comic form too. I'm waiting to see the next ep before puting the Technis(sp) Imperative on my list of comics to get but I think there is a good chance I will (heck, 52 and half the long box eps are on my list of comics to get eventually).

I haven't had a chance to read all the comments so if this has been asked please ignore but why in the heck were the people in charge of Batman so against Robin being in the Titans at that point?

And yes, the series finale for Titans with Terra was SO damn frustrating.

I've also come to really like Dana Troy through the various reviews you've done. I'd say it was a shame she's not there since the relaunch but since everything I've heard so much of the relaunch is mishandled maybe it's better she isn't there.

Though killing off her family to put her with Kyle Rainer(sp) is NOT SMART... Everything leads back to Kamandi or Countdown, ick.

So far March of the Titans has been damn fun.

@dragons_dusk

Mercenary said...

I find it slightly ironic to hear him say "not discussing the animated series" and the splash cover is of the animated series... XD

Fusionater said...

"...Did you miss the part where I said it was good and I liked it?"

Ah, apologies, your videos were long, so I may have missed it along the way(seriously man, you do this every week, there has to be a better way to solute you) As for the people asking you if your going to cover it, fair enough, I imagine it must get annoying.

Tyler said...

I think the comic was just referring to Dona's costume being old and smelly, in which cause she should just probably get it washed.

Why'd they put in Captain Marvel Jr. when they could have just had The Protector?

Barachiel said...

That was a VERY good recap, Linkara.

I have to admit, while I'd been reading comics for a few years already, at that time, it had mainly been stuff like GI Joe and Transformers.

I did read DC, but it was some on/off-again following of Batman and Green Lantern (which continues to this day). Yet, one day, I picked up an issue of New Teen Titans. I don't remember WHY anymore, but it was in the middle of Titan Hunt, and as confusing as it was, I was hooked. I managed to find a couple of previous issues to at least not be COMPLETELY out of touch, and followed the book (and more of the DCverse than usual) for the next few years.

Looking back on it, the whole thing WAS very very messy, but it was also a LOT of fun.

It also had the odd effect of being introduced to Deathstroke as a kind of anti-hero. It was made clear he was an enemy of the team (and I hunted down a Judas Contract TPB just to read that amazing story, just weeks later), but one with a sense of honor and responsibility. I grew to like the character in the title, and while I tried to follow his solo series, it didn't hold the same magic. I liked his odd bond with the team.

Anyway, after a couple years, I grew tired of the ever-changing roster and plot pacing, and left. And I left DC again, for a little while.

Jump forward a decade later, and I feel an old itch returning: to check back in on the DC universe. So what do I pick up? Why, the big Multiversal Clusterf#ck that was changing the DC status quo: Infinite Crisis.

WHOOO BOY!!!!!!!! Man was I confused! When did Cyborg get his old body back? What happened to Garth? ... When did Superboy loose the John Lennon Glasses and dress like... a normal guy?

WHEN DID DEATHSTROKE TURN IRREDEEMABLY EVIL?!?!?!?!?!?

Now that I"ve matured and read more of the overall DC history and universe, I get that it wasn't *that* complete a turn around, but for someone who was introduced to the character as a ruthless but honorable man, JESUS. And then the Superboy Prime Titan Slaughter! Nearly every character I knew from those 90s comics DIED brutally! It was nearly as traumatic as being six years old again and seeing Optimus Prime die on screen.

I went back, tracked down the trades leading up to IC on the Titans end, and *some* explanations were offered, but not many. I did enjoy the revamp though, and tried sticking with the titans again... and yet more BS happened.

Ultimately I have a love/hate affair with DC, but Teen Titans remains firmly planted as my favorite DC team of all time, and my #3 favorite DC title.

Sorry for the long, rambling tale, but I wanted to give some context for how much I appreciated the massive retrospective, as you cleared up things I was *still* confused about.

Anonymous said...

I really think you should do more shows like this. I would like to see top tens about comics/heroes/stories/arcs/etc you do like.

joe the poor speller

Norman Rafferty said...

Wait until we find out what an insult "Linkara" is, in the alien languages...

Srsly, awesome stuff. AT4W is always great, and it's good to hear some positive thoughts on the possibility of super-hero story-telling.

Ming said...

Great intro to the Titans retrospective. I've enjoyed the Teen Titans cartoon show, so it's nice to see a feature that acknowledges the original source material.

You know, with two DC cartoon shows featuring teenage superheroes (Teen Titans and Young Justice), it's a wonder why we have not seen a Titans animated movie for the DCU Original Movie lineup. I mean, they promised an animated movie adaptation of the Judas Contract that has not materialized.

Anyway, can't wait for the Technis Imperative feature.

Ozaline said...

Really enjoyable look at the comics, I'm a hard core DC supporter but never got into the Titans much (though I do have the issue with Donna's wedding), now I see what I've been missing.

As an aside, as a Trans woman I have to giggle at the Y chromesome line, I know it's a call back to an old video... but I have to wonder if a trans man turns evil if he has to wear a stripperific outfit while a trans woman will don battle armor. Of course that's not counting all the chromosomal anomalies that cis-people can have too. I think a joke story that ran with this premise would be great.

Tia Wheeler said...

I honestly had no idea that so many Titans team members existed. As someone who knew nothing about any of these characters (with the exception of Robin) and only glanced at the animated series, these episodes were very informative. Once again, I salute you Linkara.

I don't really understand why DC felt the need to kill off the Titans every now and again. Couldn't they just have them do something like grow up and go their separate ways (as superheroes or ordinary citizens), mentor new heroes, join the Justice League or another superhero group, retire, or whatever?

Anonymous said...

@Aldo512
"I will never get that idea. Hell, I got into reading comics just last year with Blackest Night. Does knowing the backstory help? Yes, but part of what I liked about it was that it made me want to see that backstory. Things like why Batman is dead or why there were two Flashes didn't confuse me, it just made me more interested in reading more about it. Of course, by then the reboot had already happened, so most of the things I was interested in no longer happened or matter, but still. Backstory becomes a danger only when you rely on it too much and make a series that's completely incomprehensible without reading what came before it, like Legion of Superheroes and Legion Lost after the reboot"

I my self was actually completely unable to get into comics until the reboot
I got burned a few times before when trying to read, as I often ended up thinking "who the hell is this, and why should I care" or "when did that happen?"
Many of the twist therefore just came of as ass-pulls to me, and I just got really angry at the comic

For this reason, when the re-boot came, intentionally want for the lesser known characters and teams, knowing they probably wouldn't try to shoehorn a ton of references to old stuff I never read

I really enjoyed Frankenstein, Demon Knights, O.M.A.C., All-Star Western, Sword of Sorcery, Earth 2, and Dial H, along with Action Comics and Wonder Woman, seeing as these series were/are free of any past baggage, and therefore I'm sure that all the twists and turns come from things I actually know about

John Teece said...

I was thinking of how they've reintroduced Titans characters into the new 52, and wondering how they could use Mr Jupiter, when it hit me.

Mr Jupiter is Harvest (aka mysterious the villain behind the Culling, and the new 52 titans main adversary)

The more and more I thought about it, more more I released how it all adds up:

- NOWHERE as an organisation has not yet been fully explained, such as how it was set up and where they get their funding. If it isn't military (whom I doubt would be in favour of superhuman death battles) then how could they pay for this million or even billion dollar hardware and facilities? With the backing of the worlds richest man, of course.
- Although the reason why hasn't been exactly explained, Harvest seems intent on constructing teams of young metahumans. Which is effictively what Jupiter was doing; forming not one, but two Teen Titan teams
(which one could argue he's done again - causing the Titans and the Ravagers to form)
- Harvest is assissted by the New 52 Omen aka Lillith aka Jupiter's daughter. Harvest's costume even looks like the one Jupiter's son wore; skull mask and black cloak
(ok, yes it's just the classic grim reaper look done many times before - it's more just another connection in addition to the others)

thoughts? I'm could proud of the theory myself

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"thoughts? I'm could proud of the theory myself"

That is actually not a bad theory. I'm not in favor of it since we don't need MORE good guys turning bad, but it's definitely well-thought out.

Eric Kimball said...

You forgot to mention the spinoff team from the Avengers/The Thunderbolts/S.H.I.E.L.D/X-men, the Great Lakes Avengers aka S.W.O.R.D. aka The Great Lakes X-Men aka The Great Lakes Champions aka The Great Lakes Initiative. The most awesome superhero team of all time.

Doresh said...

"I my self was actually completely unable to get into comics until the reboot
I got burned a few times before when trying to read, as I often ended up thinking "who the hell is this, and why should I care" or "when did that happen?"
Many of the twist therefore just came of as ass-pulls to me, and I just got really angry at the comic"

Continuity is not to blame for confusing comics. Bad writing is.

Nowadays, almost everyone has access to the internet at almost any time. Looking up the entire backstory of an obscure character takes like 10 minutes. I do it all the time.

Having heroes with backstories means they have DEPTH to them, similar to Middle-Earth (which Tolkien developed long before he wrote LotR).

If continuity is really the Great Evil that has befallen comics, why does DC not go the Archie Comics route and have everything happen in an eternal limbo? Cause ever since they started their reboot, they have started to create a new continuity.

"I really enjoyed Frankenstein, Demon Knights, O.M.A.C., All-Star Western, Sword of Sorcery, Earth 2, and Dial H, along with Action Comics and Wonder Woman, seeing as these series were/are free of any past baggage, and therefore I'm sure that all the twists and turns come from things I actually know about"

And a lot of these comics (especially the ones that don't even take place in the present day) could've happened regardless of whether or not the reboot happened.

lost_limey said...

Linkara/Lewis (I never know which name to go with, I know the character but you comment as 'you,),

This was brilliant, and as someone who has only read the New 52 Teen Titans, incredibly informative. I'm sure it takes a tremendous amount of research, but I'd love it if you could do a series retrospective like this for one week every year, almost as a companion piece to Secret Origins month.

Of course, with so much else going on with At4W, HoPR and who knows what else, I know it would be extremely unlikely that next March we'd get a guide to *picks random Marvel team* Excalibur or anything like that.

Regardless, keep up the awesome work.

Markus Criticus said...

You know what? I get why they did a reboot. I get it, contiunity porns comics can be sometimes can be really off-putting potential fan and I get why they wanted to end it and say goodbye. Here's the thing:


They didn't.

Stories of old DCU haven't ended, they just stopped. There was no ending, no conclusion, nothing. It all just stopped. Decades of storytelling, hard work, hundreds of characters and their history just throwned away by five issue long story about ONE character (rest were all alternate universe), that hasn't even been around for years. Thank you DC. Thanks.

Themilo said...

I’m curious now if you like Adric from doctor who.

I find it odd that you complaint about argent and evil raven’s costume but not about starfire’s ridiculously revealing costume it would have been Hilarious if you used that for your title card.

Regalli said...

Personally, I think Terry Long's biggest sin was that beard and hair combo. It just makes him look kinda creepy. Can't have helped his reputation.

As someone whose first real introduction to the DC universe was the animated series, thanks for the retrospective. It's really interesting seeing how these characters evolved and what things changed to create the cartoon. Looking forward to the rest of the month! (Also, yeah. The unexplained amnesiac Terra thing is just weird and annoying.)

Laura Case said...

I have been surpiriseingly waiting for "March Of the Titans". I actully really wanted to know about the Titans behind the T.V. show. I knew a little bit about the comics but I had no idea how far back the Titans went.
I really should start reading some Titans comics. Are there some Titans Comics that you really recamend?

Anonymous said...

I know that it's his real name, but why did the tv show call the character Slade instead of Deathstroke. Was it really just the whole "death" thing in his name?

Craig said...

I'm with you on the Nightwing's pants thing Linkara. What really bugged me was Arsenal's outfit. It looked like he was wearing chaps made out of cargo shorts. What was up with that?

Hibryd said...

Speaking of "Seduction of the Innocent", I'm not sure if you already saw this, but someone recently compared Fredric Wertham's notes to his finished book, and discovered the guy fabricated and distorted a LOT of his research.

http://io9.com/5985199/how-one-mans-lies-almost-destroyed-the-comics-industry

FugueforFrog said...

When I heard "Hair" in the intro I thought it was going to be about Starfire, not Donna Troy's little stunt with her ponytail.

Great history and fascinating stuff. Honestly with how confused you got with the weird Cyborg story I thought you would make a story on the show about it...but that would just be reliving it. Otherwise it was great taking a different perspective on things you've mentioned before (some of the Raven evil moments) an other new baffling moments...so the Techus Imperitive should be great next time.

BTW: I think I read that Terra was the bastard she was because Wolfman wanted to make the "anti-Kitty Pryde", who was this perfect teen girl being a superheroine for the X-Men...and with what you've said about her and Deathstroke...they succeeded.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque said...

::slow clap::

Tracey said...

Yeah, I always had the feeling that the whole ending to the Teen Titans cartoon was a reference to the confusing mess that was Terra's return in the comics

the whole "is she the original Terra, or just a look-alike" was heavily played with both of them

Ave said...

Lewis, I can understand if you don't approve this comment, and I will make one commenting on the actual video in another one, but I wanted to get in touch with you. I'd e-mail, but I did that before with no response--I think it got lost in all the other e-mails you must constantly get (not just the Atop the Fourth Wall stuff, but spam and the like).

Anyways, I'm running a crossover project which I also intend to put into print to benefit the Hero Initiative. What I was wondering is if I can use a character or more of yours in it. Sure, it's meant to be set up like the Crossover Wars, with many comics all interweaving, but I know you don't have time to make comics on top of everything else (also considering you are looking to give Lightbringer to another artist--I'd apply for that, but I can't also do the site revamp you want because I'm no good at that and actually like the way the site looks).

But it would be nice to be able to use Lightbringer and possibly your Linkara character in the crossover (I also like your other characters, but those are the big ones). In fact, I have thought of how you can be involved (if you really could use magic and could summon more free time), and that would be a photo comic, moreso. Specifically, if you did a comic with Linkara meeting Lightbringer. I'd imagine in such a situation that Will could play Lightbringer.

Anyways, about the plot of the crossover: a multidimensional conqueror named Shai'tan is taking over multiple universes. Heroes begin to band together to stop him, falling into two groups, one of which has a corrupt leader that mannipulates his side into facing the other. The heroes must face each other and Shai'tan's forces before discovering the traitor and then ultimately facing Shai'tan himself. I was inspired by Jack Kirby's villains when I created Shai'tan and do consider it a bit of a tribute to him, as well.

Ave said...

When you mentioned Mr. Jupiter in the video, I thought you would mention his connection to Infinite Crisis: specifically, that it wasn't supposed to be Maxwell Lord that was evil, but him. However, they went with Lord because less people knew who Jupiter was.

trent bowie said...

Good job on the video! It was very informative and entertaining. However, I was very disappointed with the comments you made about the Judas Contract, particularly in regards to Tara Markov. You neglected to mention that the “relationship” she had with Deathstroke was not consensual. In the state of New York, where the New Teen Titans were based, a person under the age of seventeen is legally unable to give consent to any sexual contact. That means that Deathstroke is guilty of raping Tara Markov. I'm sorry if that notion sounds uncomfortable to you, but there is no other way to describe it. Like Kole after her, Tara was created by Marv Wolfman to die. She was meant to be nothing more than a disposable plot device. And as a plot device, she was deliberately written without a back story outside of having Geo-Force as a brother. Even worse, the fact that Deathstroke was raping Tara was used as proof that she was “complete monster”. At the end of the storyline, there is a narrative explaining that “due the fault of no one but herself, she is insane”. And then, “no one taught her to hate, yet she hates...without cause, without reason.”...and finally, “Don't look for reasons which do not exist - - plainly, Tara Markov is what she is, and she has taken a great power and made it corrupt as she.” In other words, the reader is being encouraged, at least, to dismiss Tara as a crazy person and at worst, to slut shame a rape victim. It wasn't until 2003 that Marv Wolfman admitted that having Deathstroke “have a physical relationship with the 16 year old Tara Markov...was wrong ”. Even then, he didn't use the word “rape”. That, I feel, is the reason why the Judas Contract earns its place in the Unfortunate Implications section of TVTropes.com. Below are the links to my references:

http://historiesofthingstocome.blogspot.com/2010/05/dcu-continuity-for-terra-rosebud-of.html

http://www.ageofconsent.com/newyork.htm

http://www.ageofconsent.us/state-laws/new-york-age-of-consent-laws/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Doresh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Doresh said...

Wait, why didn't Donna just grab those dudes with her HANDS o_O ?

Yay said...

Wait, who do u mean by Psychopath who got statue at the beginning of 2003 series? Terra?

Anonymous said...

This is a difficult thing to review. On one hand, I liked it, and I learned a lot, like why everyone ignores Battalion.

On the other, you said yourself that this is a show about bad comics and the primary appeal is watching you snark and rage against Marville and other crap. Honestly, this sort of month long retrospective seems more fitting for a long series like Countdown, to point out everything wrong with it. While it just finished recently, The Boys would lend itself spectacularly to a month long thrashing.

Like I said, I did enjoy it, and look forward to more, but it does clash with the general motif of the show, really bad comics being made fun of.

Taylor said...

I assume that "getting kind of raunchy" wasn't referencing how revealing it was, but rather how dirty/beaten up it was getting.

JerryScott said...

I just realized something. Before this, you've review four horrible comics in a row. ASBAR #5, Youngblood #5, Star Wars 3-D (the 3-D was bad on the eyes), and Marville #4. You deserve a break from the bad stuff to talk about some things you like.

Craig said...

No trent bowie, it was not the fact that Deathstroke had underage sex with Terra that made her a complete monster. It was the fact that she willingly infiltrated the Titans for the explicit purpose of helping Deathstroke kill them that makes her a complete monster. She wasn't forced into it, Deathtstroke didn't somehow mind control Terra into doing it, she did it willingly.

As for the rape, yes Deathstroke did commit statutory rape. He could be charged with that and imprisoned. The thing is however, he's only guilty of that rape because Terra was underage. If she'd been eighteen there would have been know crime because she was completely willing. Thus she wasn't really a victim at all.

The character who IS a victim in the Judas Contract story, one of them anyway, is Changeling. After all, Terra made him think she was falling for him even though she couldn't care less about him. As in she was deliberately screwing with his head and playing with his emotions before trying to kill him.

trent bowie said...

Sorry Craig, but I disagree with your dismissal of Tara as a victim. Yes, she did terrible things, but it was under the orders of Deathstroke. Deathstroke is the one who implemented the plan to destroy the Titans. In fact, he visited a whole lot a grief upon the team, particularly Changeling, long before Tara came on the scene.
Let us explore what Tara actually did. She infiltrated the Titans, but only after Changeling chased her across town for two issues before dragging her kicking and screaming to the Titans Tower. Then she discovered team's identities and secrets and relayed the information to Deathstroke. This was done via a contact lens camera and a hidden microphone. Think about that for a moment. She apparently had had this equipment on her person this whole time. That means Deathstroke at the very least was keeping Tara under constant surveillance. If she had tried to go for help, he would have known immediately and acted on it. Tara was nothing but a tool to Slade, something he could use, abuse and eventually throw away like a piece of trash. He never gave a damn about her welfare except how it would benefit him. If there is one thing Tara did that was definitely wrong, it was assaulting Raven.
Even then, Tara's sins pale in comparison to the horrible things Raven did in the 90's. The list includes, but is not limited to, raping Gar and helping destroy Tamaran. And she doesn't pay for her crimes. Ever.
The point I am trying to make is, placing most of the blame on a teenage girl for a scheme conceived and executed by an adult man is not only unfair, but sexist. Imagine if Tara had been male. Even worse, let's put Cassandra Cain in her place. Maybe then people will realize that The Judas Contract arc is a feminist's worst nightmare.

Freyaday said...

animated!Mad Mod was a great villain, Linkara, what are you talking about?

Craig said...

So your argument for Terra being a victim is that Deathstroke treated her, the way she treated everybody else? Read the comic Trent Bowie, Terra was not forced into the relationship with Deathstroke or the plan to infiltrate the Titans. She showed know hesitance in doing it, nor did she show remorse after having done it.

She was a complete and utter sociopath, that's WHY Deathstroke hired her to do the mission. Oh and regarding the contact lens camera and hidden microphone: the neccesary gear to carry out her mission does not make her a victim.

Now as for Raven, was she not explicitly stated to be possessed by the maddened spirits of Azarath at the time? As in she was being forced to do those things. Oh and the purging process that got rid of those spirits, if I'm not mistaken, actually resulted in her dying. So Raven being forced to do evil and dying makes her less of a victim then Terra, who was always evil and never claimed otherwise?

Finally, your feminist argument. You claim that Terra is a victim, that it was all Slade's fault because she is a teenage girl and he is an adult male. Do I even have to explain why that's bullshit?

coldfiredragon said...

Great episode! The series you are building to is one of my favorites.

You were saying you didn't know how long the original Deathstroke comic ran for, it was 60 issues and 4 annuals, and was written by Marv Wolfman so the writing was actually pretty good. The characterization was consistent and the supporting cast really helped balance Slade and flesh out his backstory. I think it's in large part to 60 issue series that he's remained so popular.

This was a well fleshed out history! I'm glad you are dedicating a whole month to making people understand why these characters are so important.

The new 52 series of Titans is just terrible and watching the first two parts of your retrospective really drove that home for me.

Can't wait for the episodes over the next three weeks!

trent bowie said...

All right, Craig. It looks like you are the prosecuting attorney and I am the defense attorney in regards to Tara Markov. And that's all right. In truth, no one will ever know of her motives or even if she was willing or not because there is no back story from which to extrapolate. Marv Wolfman himself refers to her as a plot device. And that is his right as a writer.
On the bright side, at least you and I are in agreement on the statutory rape issue. It's such a sensitive subject that it may be the main reason the Judas Contract movie is in development hell. My guess is that there's no way to make that without turning it into a crossover with Law and Order SVU. Because you know that Stabler would be itching to kick Slade's ass...
I'm just sayin'...

Anonymous said...

Your comments on the New 52 Teen Titans remind me of my own views on Spider-man. He is who go me into comics, and even though other characters eventually passed him in my heart I still had a soft spot for him. Then came the much reviled "One More Day." Pete and MJ had been married most if not all of the time I had read the comic. The character had grown, and then a reset shoving him back to a whiny teenager. When I read on the first page, in the first panel, "It's so unfair to show me macking on this chick." I knew I was out. Everything I had grown to care about was undone.

And just like you had Arsenal as a prelude to appointment I had the ONE MORE DAy before Brand New Day. Peter may have, unlike Roy, acted completely in character, but it was all the bad points of his character. His aunt had already died once, and then he dealt with it like a man. Sure, he mourned, who wouldn't, but he also accepted it and even let her last seconds be one of joy because he could see out side of himself.

But, better to focus on what WAS good. Just like you are doing with this. Good on you!

Anonymous said...

I like that you are giving respect to Titans, a good title, but hardly what is considered the best era by many comic fans. It is very overlooked. I can not wait to hear you actually get to them... if only you could poly bag a web show. I would make DOZENS!

Jeff K! said...

Lewis, great overview. Thank you for putting together this amazing history of one of my all-time favorite teams.

That said, I'd like to nitpick a little, if I may: Terry and Robert Long were not killed off to make room for Donna to date Kyle. In fact, they were alive the entire time Kyle and Donna were dating!
One of my all-time favorite comics mostly revolves around Kyle babysitting Robert and taking him to the zoo.

They were killed off as an excuse to BREAK UP Donna and Kyle, so she'd go back to being a supporting cast member in John Byrne's Wonder Woman book instead of a co-star in Green Lantern.

You see, Byrne had some plans for Donna and didn't want to bring along the baggage of her supporting cast. Robert Long had also appeared in Kingdom Come as a Darkstar, and Byrne hated the then-current DC mandate that that was the 'official' DC future, so he sabotaged it where he could. One of the ways he did that was to kill off Robert.

Commenter Starman, above, mentioned how Terry and Donna broke up the month before Kyle received his ring. I wasn't reading New Titans at the time, but I was reading Green Lantern, and I can confirm that there were no plans on Ron Marz' part to have GL date her at that point. Kyle himself was a last minute creation, and his early stories really flew by the seat of their pants.

The relationship came about because it gave Ron Marz a character who had experience in the superhero biz that Kyle could make a strong connection to and sort of guide him on his way.

For me as a comic reader, the relationship between Donna and Kyle is probably the least forced relationship I've ever read. It didn't feel mandated by an editor, it took some time getting set up, they didn't date right away. It just felt natural.

Anyway, thank you for letting me ramble a bit, and picking at the only thing that felt off to me in an otherwise brilliant video.
-Jeff K!

Anonymous said...

I'm with Trent Bowie here.

Linkara, you're accurate in saying Terra II was a freaking mess, but honestly, Terra in general was ALWAYS a freaking mess. The blog Trent linked to shows that. It didn't matter what the incarnation was, Terra always has problems in how she and her storyline is written that makes no goddamn sense whatsoever. Why ANY Terra gets a statue while Danny Chase has none is beyond me.

Honestly, I like the TV show's Terra best. Frusturating finale aside, she had the most consistent character and the least amount of writing hiccups.

Objector said...

"You claim that Terra is a victim, that it was all Slade's fault because she is a teenage girl and he is an adult male. Do I even have to explain why that's bullshit?"

It's not all Slade's fault, no. Terra deserves her share of blame, for sure. The issue here is that Slade is excused, in and out of universe, for nearly EVERYTHING while Terra gets ALL the blame even though:

1. As an adult male, he is techincally much more accountable for his actions than Terra, regardless of whether or not she's a sociopath.

2. The Judas Contract was HIS plan. Terra was his minion. So why the Hell is it that, whenever the Judas Contract is remembered, it's TERRA who's remembered as the villain? She may have done the actual Judas-work, but that was all on Slade's orders. That everyone just forgets that makes no sense. There is no way in Hell that the Titans would realistically accept Slade as a friend and father-figure after the Judas Contract.

In short, Terra may not be a victim, but her status as a villain is way overblown, and it being so to shift blame away from Slade is really uncomfortable.

Kivi said...

Haha, Hippie-Linkara was really cute! :D I especially loved the smile at the end of that bit. Will we ever see him again? :'D

Anonymous said...

Back in 2010, when Linsano was escaping after the Crisis of Infinite Insanos, what was the background music? I want to know where I can find that music.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Back in 2010, when Linsano was escaping after the Crisis of Infinite Insanos, what was the background music? I want to know where I can find that music."

Either "Approaching Evil" or "Satanic," IIRC. Either is from the Renn and Stimpy Soundtrack.

Anonymous said...

...seriously?

Not a WORD said about Damian's death? And no one even asks a question about it?

A freaking Robin is dead. I think this warrants at least a mention.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"...seriously?

Not a WORD said about Damian's death? And no one even asks a question about it?

A freaking Robin is dead. I think this warrants at least a mention."

What exactly were you expecting from me?

That I would take time out of a retrospective that doesn't actually relate to him (yeah, he was on the team briefly - the part of the team THAT I'M NOT COVERING) to mention his death? That I would make some huge song and dance about his death?

I only read the issue yesterday because it sold out of my shop last week and comics for this week were delayed.

Quite frankly I'm not entirely convinced he's dead, anyway. And even if he is fo-serious-yo-dead, this is just par for the course of the reboot, quite frankly.

So, again, what exactly do you want from me?

Anonymous said...

Hey Linkara first awesome retrospective looking forward to the rest of it.

Random question what do you think would be a good name for a hero with powers that are nuclear in origin

Shanethefilmmaker said...

@Trent Bowie. I am not taking either side of this argument but the thing is Trent there are holes in your story. Yes, Slade would be charged however the charge would be Statutory Rape. Full on rape is if the person being accused did it to their victim against their will. Statutory Rape charge means it doesn't matter if Terra was willing or not for she was still under the age of consent. So in a way yes you are right, however you are also wrong. There is a fine line between legal consent and consent consent as many comics including this have pointed out that Teens are a lot smarter than they are portrayed in most mediums and just because a teen legally can't or can do things. Does not mean they wouldn't do them. Yes Terra is legally not given consent, but she gave consent. It was a taboo relationship. That being said there is also the matter that you missed in regards that King Markov Terra's Dad disowned and emancipated her and since she lives on her own and not in an orphanage, that makes her a legalized adult and responsible for her own actions.

Anonymous said...

"So, again, what exactly do you want from me?"

I don't think it would be appropriate in the video, no, but a blog would work. Something to discuss your thoughts on it? I doubt I'm the only person who's curious.

And for the record, I'm with you. I don't think he's dead permanently, just because Grant Morrison doesn't end his run on series' with a downer. That's not the sort of writer that he is.

le_messor said...

I love me some 80s Titans! I've got the first two omnibi, with the third on pre-order, and Games, and up to #100 with floppies.
Apart from that still-missing gap (presumably I'll love that lot, too), they're among my favourite comics.

The 60's version sounds good. So does the next team - but, yeah, I hate in-name-only garbage. Expecting somebody who loved the Titans to love a new team of strangers just because they've got the same collective name... ugh.
(Disgruntled Alpha Flight reader here.)

I was thinking about the letters while you were talking, and thinking about how editorial used to be okay with printing negative letters - but in the nineties suddenly stopped. Both Marvel and DC.
It always struck me as dishonest.
There was no way they could do some of the complete turn-arounds in style they did without any negative letters. No way.

~ Mik

trent bowie said...

@Shanethefilmmaker, Tara's father's name was Viktor. And while he did send her away, when he was dying, he asked Brion to "find your sister...find Tara! Tell her I have always loved her." Say what you want about Tara, that was pretty heart-wrenching.
As for the "fine line between legal consent and consent consent", I do not think it would make much difference to a law enforcement officer. I myself do not work for law enforcement. However, you do make it sound like her "consent consent" makes it okay to vilify her. Not cool.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

@Trent Bowie no I don't think it's ok It's a very disgusting thing regardless, but what I am saying is that she did it on her own volition and as bad as it is he probably would have gotten off that charge if he wasn't the first guy either. Cape Fear had the same problem, Max Cady a well known Rapist would have gotten out of a Rape and Sexual Battery charge if a prior sexual history was in his defence. His recent victim had a history of promiscurity, he would have walked. Judging by most of Terra's talk to Slade, he probably wasn't the first. I am not saying its all ok though I am just saying if you are gonna put any legal issues in a comic book you gotta cover all your basis even the fictional ones. Before Geoforce found her in the states she was legally an emancipated minor. Odds are she had a history of sex prior and after Terminator and she knew what she was doing when she spied on the Titans. The only time he exhibited some control over her was when she herself went to go capture Raven. Last but not least she was scorned when she though Slade betrayed her. I'm just reading between the lines here though. I'm not saying it's ok though, I am just saying there are holes in your "She's a victim" arguement. Its not all biased in your argument at all though. My saying of Statutory was pretty much telling you that you could be right, you just had the wrong charge.

Tia Wheeler said...

Wow, a lot of people are getting up in arms about Terra and Slade.

This is just my humble opinion, but as far as villainy is concerned... they are both to blame. I think the reason that Terra receives more hate for it is because the Titans trusted her and she tried to feed them to the wolves.

As far as their relationship... once again they are both to blame. It takes two to tango.

trent bowie said...

“As far as their relationship... once again they are both to blame. It takes two to tango.”

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that you're okay with the fact that Slade Wilson, an adult male, chose to engage in sexual contact with a child who was younger than both his sons? Because that is not cool. And yes, I do refer to Tara as a child because in the United States of America, a person under the age of eighteen is considered a minor. In other words, a child. She could not vote, buy alcohol, join the armed forces (looking at you, Slade), could not sue anyone nor rent a camp side. In order to help you understand this issue better, here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

Please note that while the laws vary, the application of my argument should be confined to the state of New York (the age of consent is currently 17). And note that Deathstroke is well over the age of 21. This is a 50+ year old man touching a 16 year old child. Are you sure you are cool with that?

“Before Geoforce found her in the states she was legally an emancipated minor. Odds are she had a history of sex prior and after Terminator and she knew what she was doing when she spied on the Titans.”

First off, the correct spelling is Geo-Force. Please get it right. Second, please cite Tara's “history of sex prior and after Terminator”. Names and locations would be appreciated. Finally, your suggestion that Tara being an “emancipated minor” doesn't make a difference in regards to a statutory rape charge is sadly mistaken. I did some research to find out whether or not emancipated minors are subject to statutory rape laws. In the state of New York, they are. Here are the links:

http://answers.uslegal.com/minors/emancipation-of-minor/17702/

http://www.empirestatecoalition.org/main/legal/emanc.html

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24

By the way, New York does not have an emancipation statute for minors. But the statutory rape laws do still apply. In New York's case, the age of consent was 18 from 1920 to 2007. After that, it went down to 17, as seen on Law & Order SVU. Any way you look at it, Slade Wilson is in the wrong here.

Inspector Archy said...

If it's any consolation about the Terra TV finale, the tie in comics at least tried to give her some sort of resolution.

The Titans meet Terra's brother, Geo-Force, who explains how Terra and him got powers (they're royalty who were the subjects of evil experiments).

Beast Boy takes Geo-Force to Terra's new school. They find that she's happy with her new life and decide to leave her be.

Also, the TV series is getting brought back, albeit with a completely comedic focus. She probably won't be mentioned again, but who knows.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

@Trent Bowie let me get this straight you simply think the law decides the actions of people regardless of their actual decisions? First of all this is a comic book, had this been real life laws applied the Titans would have to answer to lot of vigilante charges unless they have been deputized by law enforcement. Even then, they would answer to use of excessive force and torture. Second regardless of the legal matter Terra did what she did on her own volition and she is far from being a victim. That being said you don't need names, you can tell by her dialog with Slade during the matter implied that not only have they been doing this for a while, but also it implies that he wasn't the first person. During the end of the comic her words were "You know the reason I joined you Slade...and it wasn't 'cause we were lovers." This further implies that what they were doing was as bad as it sounds it was consensual. Does that sound like something decided by law or was that conscious decision. Besides Terra has been known to breaking more than just the consent law: There's Armed Robbery, Terrorism, reckless endangerment, attempted murder, kidnapping, espionage. The list goes on.

Micro4 said...

i must say there is probably going to be some guy who sees night-wings pants and says WAIT! I KNOW THOSE PANTS!

Jake said...

"Be careful, Donna or else satan will erase your future marriage from history too" The subtlety got a laugh out of me, thank you for that one :D

Dark Patrician said...

Okay, I really hope that this weeks title card and Spoony's Party Mania are the closest we ever get to seeing you in drag.

Well the week delay seems to have worked out, you've got a name for the theme month. All that's missing is an opening montage with music, a'la Secret Origins Month...maybe not necessary the Teen Titan's theme but something.

Also I think you're going to have to clean your couch, some random hippie was sitting on it talking about being "groovy cats up in this pad."

Wait, did one of those panels talk about Dimension X? Does this mean the Teen Titans fought Krang? Oh man that would be awesome!

Were the aliens on the moon, moon-based aliens or aliens from another planet entirely? Maybe they were just skeptical about aliens not living in our solar system.

Some of the stuff you mentioned, such as Mack taking on the Guardian's costume, is happening in the current season of Young Justice, along with a Blue Beetle heavy storyline involving the Reach.

I'm probably wrong, but did I just see Morbius the Living Vampire?

Didn't you have a formula for the relationship between evil and gender in your Top 15 Worst Heroes becoming Villains?

Oh Linkara don't you know that having your planet blown up is the in-thing that all alien heroes are doing? The only reason Earth hasn't been blown up is because if it was we'd have no place to keep all of our stuff.

Argent's costume...can it still be called a neckline if it goes that far away from the neck?

I'm really looking forward to the rest of the month. Great job!

overfiend_87 said...

Wow Terra was such a evil bitch! Well the origonal Terra anyway. I mean just...wow. Plus I thought I was seeing things when it showed her semi-nude in a night gown till you pointed out that she actually slept with Salde and since she's such a sociopath...it seems more likely that she led him on that anything.

Also, I've always loved Raven from the series and Starfire, great characters. I can't believe Mad Mod actually exsisted and he wasn't just a lame villain they stuck in teen titans for a throw-away villain to use in the first issue.

Lee said...

I think in 2003 they were trying to get the Teen Titans cartoon series to become a hit which it did. But its like the exact opposite of the comic's. Still in the cartoon was really good and in season 2 and 4 it seemed to be even more dark the power rangers time force and RPM. If you want check out the cartoon but you won't like the ending linkara. Just never and I mean never check out Teen Titans Go. I think Teen Titans go is for your 4 year old's that are drunk. How drunk on a scale of 1 to 10, 300. Yep that bad. I'd say after your done with pokemon, if you want review the Teen Titans cartoon its good. Only if you want to. Never Teen Titans Go.

Felix Brunschede said...

I miss green Beast Boy...