Monday, March 25, 2013

March of the Titans: The Titans #26-50



March of the Titans concludes with one stupid idea after another!

165 comments:

Ryan Bates said...

That was the funniest ever opening of AT4W!

Shanethefilmmaker said...

I'm surprised Linkara's more pissed on Critic's return, since Lewis gave great advice on the matter. I'd think Nostalgia Chick would try an attempt on his life.

harmonicajay said...

This is how I felt about what happened to JSA, which is my favorite comic series of all time. Your feelings on the reboot included. I hated the team split after Geoff Johns left, since he is both my favorite writer and the guy that got me into JSA and the one I felt could carry the book. I hated all the changes that were made and the crappy costume Alan Scott got before he died and only got a one or two panel funeral (EVEN THOUGH HE WAS THE FIRST GREEN LANTERN!) I hated that all my heroes and their histories were being swept away because DC was losing money and they needed a quick fix. So, believe me, I fully understand your feelings. I hated that 70+ years of "The Greatest Generation" was being swept away. Thank God for Amazon.com and the trades I have so I never have to lose the memories and lessons that those books taught me. Probably the same lessons as you were taught with The Titans.

I don't know if you have a plan for it or anything... (And if you don't I understand completely) but for next year, not this year of course, have you ever thought of doing something like... JSA July or something? I know that you probably have no plans for it, with your set schedule and everything, but that is something that like The Titans (Which I wish were in trades) should be shared with the world.

This was fun. Thanks for informing me of this book.

Whisky Tango Foxtrot said...

A blue wall? Blue? What madness is this?

Ryan Bates said...

14:10-14:21 - you describe how there's never been an instance of a team being replaced and the book becoming more popular because of the new characters.

Not to be a nitpick (because your point is valid) BUT... Giant Size X-Men #1. That's the only exception.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

I just thought of something What if Helfer was secretly a Dalek? He sees the Titans as different than what he is used to in editing, questions the existence of said Titansm, and automatically wants to exterminate it by making it intentionally suck.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

Oh my god, a Shield Expy pursuing kids with special abilities. A wheelchair bound Professor X Knock OFF!? OH MY GOD THE EDITOR THOUGHT HE WAS EDITING X-MEN THE WHOLE TIME!!!

Anonymous said...

You REALLLLLLLYYYYYYYY hate Geoff Johns don't ya?

Ryan Bates said...

Your final point about DC's reboot encapsulates a lot of people's feelings. I hope DC's management see that, someday.

DC lost me as a buyer, for good, because of The New 52. It felt like a grossly out of control, 21st century version of Heroes Reborn... Liefeld was even on board for the relaunch. I had no idea that panels were erased in trades, as you exhibited with the Titans references being eliminated. Tragic!

Marvel, on the other hand, has never rebooted the 616 universe and can still tell great stories - consider that when you recall that the X-Men and Avengers are approaching their 50th birthdays this year.

Marvel NOW! was a "relaunch" done right - the writers just got together and made sure they did a bang-up job at cohesive jumping on point for readers. I hadn't read comics for over 15 years before I heard of Marvel NOW! - today, I buy 16 Marvel titles a month, I'm into new books like To Hell You Ride from Dark Horse and Deathmatch from Boom!, and others. The New 52 in 2011 did nothing more me. Like I said, it actually turned me off of comics.

Great episode, though! Wolfman/Perez era was my favourite incarnation of the Titans.

Kaze Koichi said...

Nice to see the return of "Previously on Atop the Fourth Wall."
And return of grumpy Linkara.
(And in case I'm repeating a dosen of people saying the same before me, I can't see them yet, so it isn't on purpose.

Anonymous said...

Unlike your first 3 parts, which got me rather excited about comics, this one is rather dissuading. I mean, how good can they be if even your favorite series's second half was riddled with flaws?

Amesang said...

Man… when I saw that Pharmaceutical leader guy I was honestly hoping it'd be Snowflame.

No, seriously, out of all the twists and turns it couldn't be THAT bad of an idea, right? Plus he'd fit the drug theme!

Shanethefilmmaker said...

Mess with comics, that's one thing, Screw with their continuity, that's another. However make it so the happy memories we all have for our respective heroes never happen? If you could find a way to murder fictional characters, that would be the way to do it. Screw Roger Rabbit's dip, what you say about the reboot, making it like the Titans never existed in the first place is the closest thing to killing these characters. I hope that in the long run fans of the series would end up in the comic business. I don't expect them to bring it back to the way it was that's not possible. But I do hope if guys like you ever end up in DC, Marvel or even Dark Horse, that they make sure we never forget about the heroes we grew up with. Lewis, this retrospective is the beginning of a beautiful reminder of what once was and what shall be again eventually.

Yay said...

Oh, come to think of it, it's been quite a while (at least while enough for 1 yr restriction) since DC's that infuriating reboot. I heard that you think Flash Point is more lame than 'sucks butt', but still, I think that this bloody book is worthy of your rage. Will you accept this challenge? You can try to compare with other issue such as Booster Gold's attempt to save Ted to show how lame the FP was and how unworthy it to be a reboot event. (At least final crisis had some content there!)

John Teece said...

My issues with Sins of Youth:

- Child Kyle Rayner changing the look of his Green Lantern uniform in every single panel... surely that'd drain the ring pretty quickly
- Child captain marvel acting like a child... when Billy Batson already IS a child, and not even he acts that childish
- Klairon's choice of supervillians to have combat the child heroes... while Black Adam is a solid choice, the Penguin... really?

Yay said...

Oh, in case of your "i'll get you new dog" case, that imaginary "parents" try to be good parent to their children (even though it doesn't seem to work), but in case of DC, they don't care about their customer.

disturbedfantasy said...

This was alot of fun to watch any chance of seeing more video's like this in the future?

Kristine Bennett said...

An interdimensional serial killer? So that where the idea for the recent Shortpacked storyline came from! DAMN YOU WILLIS!

Anonymous said...

Awesome review ! It was really interesting to hear your thoughts on both the good and bad of your favorite series.

Now to be the first of a bajillion; why did you never use the animated series' theme?

Information Geek said...

You know, the whole kids’ thing with Titans sort of reminds me of what is going on with Avengers being written by Jonathan Hickman. It’s appears more like the writer cares more about the new characters he is making rather than the Avengers themselves, which we are all here for. He’s building them up more and leaving the others in the dust. Hell, the Avengers in the last issue look utterly incompetent at the job, choosing the fight rather to talk in situation, unlike the new characters who simply figure out how fix the problem easily (though one them really didn’t help too much). It’s not like the Titans situation like you said, but there are similarities that I am noticing and I can totally see where you are coming from.

Speaking of the D.E.O., any thoughts of them in Batwoman? Good idea to use them (J.H. Williams III really created them back in Chase) or do they take away from the awesomeness of Batwoman herself by forcing her to work for them?

Mitchell Martinez said...

Your closing speech was an absolute joy to listen to, as was every one of these Titans videos. As things seem to get worse and worse with DC or Marvel's stable of books, it leaves me wondering how much longer I'll bother with the books I do read, but no matter what, now that I have seen these videos, I now know of more older, better comics I would love to own.

Thanks to you, I own the Technis Imperative, I am now reading the 1996 Teen Titans, and I will be doing the same with the first 25 Titans issues. The same goes for Dynamo 5 to.

Daniel T. Stack said...

What do you mean queue people asking about the Teen Titans TV Theme? You used it to herald your first Teen titans related review in Secret Origins Month.

What I don't get is they show the tower getting destroyed when earlier as it was being rebuilt it was clearly being shown as being made as an underground complex with the tower being a hologram. Was the tower really destroyed or the holo just turned off? More questions for the too many.

Anonymous said...

I had a dream a month ago where I was watching this exact episode of Atop the Fourth Wall.

jericho said...

Great retrospective linkara, and trust me, i know what its like to be a fan of a series that goes down hill due to a change in editors and writers, although from what Ive seen in your review it was mostly the editors fault in this case.

Also, just out of curiosity, how did you feels about the 2003 teen titans series that came after this, and would you recommend it to someone.



silly guy said...

Is that Ethan Van Sciver doing the cover art of The Trial Of Cheshire on 7:54?

Elizabeth Freeman said...

That hearth felt speech at the end really hit me Linkara. The 1st comic book character I really connected with was Renee Montoya in the novelization of 52. I loved her as cop and even more as the Question (I loved vic sage as well and have been trying to get my hands on O'neil's run of the Question) I liked her so much I went out and bought the trade collection of 52 and all of Greg rucka's stories featuring the character (including Gothman Cental). There was something about Renee and her heroes journey that really clicked with me and I ate up all of her tales like a little girl on Christmas morning with a shiny new toy. To me she felt like a person I could bump into on the street instead of a fiction character due to the emotional depth rucka's writing gave her. I was happy when the reboot announced a new Batwoman book and bought the trade expecting Renee to make an appearance. My heart shattered as she was no where to be found, just a vague on of panel mention. I have all of her old adventures and 52,so Renee will live on in my heart. :(

sliver age boy said...

The Reboot has lost its headway, and I'd say that DC comics are doing worse now then they were in 2010.

Some times I really don't know what there is to like about Geoff Johns he likes to tell stories" with "iconic characters" but that really just translates to the "characters I grew up with" sometimes that's good sometimes that bad coughwhereswallycough .I use to hate that Geoff Johns saw us fans as superboy- prime now I hate him because he is superboy -prime

R.I.P Titans there are worst ways to end a series I, guess.

Kth-77 said...

Linkara fighting in a civil war caused by the power vacuum created by the critics death? I would PAY to see that!

Also loved the end speech, very nice, very inspirational.

Falcovsleon20 said...

The head of the DEO is named Mr. Bones eh? Any relation to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeOdf3UPn9k

Anonymous said...

Nice review. Though in honesty I will say it is getting kinda old saying that the DC reboot meant these comics 'never happened', since, well, none of it really happened, being fiction, and all those hundreds of comics are still there. I guess it's because I grew up with more standalone comics like Tintin with a looser sense of continuity, but all that aside, it's nice to see these more retrospective reviews every once in a while. It is interesting to see how a comic series like this develops with all its ups and downs.

Jasoon said...

Was the original idea of 'Epsilon', the dimension hopping serial killer, your inspiration for Vyce?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but I do kinda think you undermined you'r main point by having to explain so much about the character's history for the stories to make some semblance of sense
What if I'm a person who's easily confused, and has no interest looking-up back-issues, only wanting to read a good story that I'm able to understand right as I read it?
What if I want to start from ground zero?
(and from the conversations I had with people, the majority are like that)

There is a reason why there are so many different versions of Transformers, My Little Pony, Ninja Turtles, and even Littlest Pet Shop

Most people want to hear a story from the beginning, and have zero tolerance for outdated content

Anonymous said...

why you never used the animated series theme song? xD

i like to pretend everytime a character disappears, he or she is fighting darkseid's army, or fighting a giant demon monster on the moon, or having a succesful social life while superheroing.

thorondragon said...

applauds politely.
a very good analysy and review. titans forever dude.

for some reason this makes me think about manga a bit here. in a sense, you do not have to worry about the editor mandates and such. the stories work more like a novel than a american comic series, each event leading to the next in one way or the next. and often the author and the artist are the same person, allowing more control over theri story. it can work so well than one can implant details that ursurp one's previously stated view of the situation without you actualyl realizing it.
however unlike the titans, we have a problem with finality, yet also a strength. when a manga series, whether it last for twenty issues, a hundred, or in some cases a thousand, once they end, it is the end most of the time. never again will you see these character work again for whatever reason.

however this can be a virture cause it knows when it ends, unlike a lot of comics. the cloen saga for example. sure a manga can be stretched, but it can be stretched ot include more details on characters and their hsitory. however most comics this day cannot handle nor try to deal with finality meaningful finality with either characters nor series. a character dies? if they are popular, Ressurrection no matter how contrived!!!that or they are replaced with a so called 'newer' version of themselves even if they have no realconnection.

when a manga character dies, unless the plot of it is not that serious, they remain dead, for that was theri fate in the narrative. i have full on cried on more deaths in manga. i do hear a lot of people complaining how the character seem to have plot armor, but when a character does die, it fits and is shocking without forcing it down ya throat with a broom handle.
insteado f a guy being impaled on a sword and just flyign up to die, while a heroic thing so no one dies with you if still cotnrived, you have a guy who died protecting someone he calls his brother and loved with all his heart, and another one who, despite being fatally wounded himself, refuses to die till he righteously beats his enemy, and to inspire those who followed under him for so many years to continue on without him.

basically they do not lie down like dogs, they fight to theri lasts breaths like true heroes, as true heroes should.

PopCultureOtaku said...

Great previously on segment with Doug. :)
Damage potential all wasted because Geoff Johns wanted to use a punching bag and then killed him off. You wonder why I stopped like Johns so much? Stuff like this. Gail Simone mention reminds and johns bad stuff reminds why I like Simone as better writer.
So another example of editors being out of control. I even asked about this on Nash's megastream. This why I hate DC at the moment. There are some good books but buried under editorial crap, bad/unfully thought out event ideas, main books that are okay to really bad.
Cause we really need to kill characters off instead of comic with actually interesting storyline where dead characters come back. I mean I know death is a joke but at least it was interesting idea.
Replacement heroes. I can count on my fingers number of times that actually worked. Almost all of them replaced or had their original come back. Wally West/Barry Allen, Kyle/Hal, Connor/Olie. I know you said not to point it out but wanted to make point it works very rarely. You can count so many times where it doesn't. This crap reminds me of Marvel editors thinking: Oh spider-man fans will just forget real Peter Parker like in Ultimate Universe but they have treated that universe like crap probably fans don't give a crap.
This reminds me that I forget how cool of character Rose was. Shoot she looked like she been hitting the weights when hitting the punching bag. I was never a fan of what they did to her and don't get me started with reboot version.
Sad about Jessie Quick being used that way. I was a huge fan from back when she appeared in Flash book. I think during Mark Waid run at first. Jessie did get screwed later on but got turned around when JSA. That all erased by reboot and pretty much she did too.
Maybe Bones plan was the whole time to let titans screw things up and wait for kids to return on their own.

PopCultureOtaku said...

I wanted to add I totally agree with you at the end. Why I get frustrated about the reboot. New thing and change are not always bad. If they were this book would never happen. They still would be kids. It just angers me just callous nature of dc sometimes towards it's fans characters. I'm sorry. That little made me tear up a bit as a fellow fan.

Holo Linksano said...

So Geoff Johns is a good or bada writer?

Jesse said...

Who was that new girl in the white at the beginning?

You have more patience for those N.E.O. kids than i did Linkara. i hated them to the point I wished Deathstroke would come back and kill them. I was hoping Superboy-Prime would end up killing them in Infinite Crisis.

Only thing I hated more was how easily Cheshire got off. life-imprisonment for nuking a country? Yeah right.

I did sorta like the final 4 issues. I thought of them as camp and enjoyed it. After so much bad it really helped. Tell me seeing Starfire off all people wearing tin foil on her head didn't get something of a chuckle out of you.

I'm with you on the reboot analysis. Do you think they'll undo it anytime soon?

Kid Wicked said...

When there's trouble you know who to call!
TEEN TITANS!
From their tower they can see it all!
TEEN TITANS!
When there's evil on the attack
You can rest knowing they got your back
'Cause when the world needs heroes on patrol
TEEN TITANS, GO!

TEEN TITANS, GO!

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, GO!

TEEN TITANS!

Laughing Hyena said...

Chances are, considering most Media:
There's a 90% or 95% chance that the autism displayed by a fictional character is very offensive.

This is because like most self-diagnosed people (or arm-chair psychiatrists as I like to call them), writers will also do quick searches on very outdated information or stereotypical/false information on the internet, rather than doing any actual real/deep research.
Or worse, they have a close friend that has a child with autism and decide to base their entire concept of autism for the character(s) around that because they want to talk about real issues that affect us. They never really talk to the kid to know what it's like for them to get their perspectives, they just go off based around their own observations that they make.

They do not even consider the fact that autism symptoms can differ from person to person (mild, very mild, middle, severe, very severe, etc.).
Secondly: If there's anything I want to beat writers in the head with, it's that autism conditions can sometimes CHANGE with age/time.
I went from severe autism as a child to very mild autism as a teenager (I'm now an adult and probably older than Linkara). It can happen and so does the reverse. While for some, no changes take place. It all depends on how your body and brain reacts/changes to/because of puberty.
The third thing I want to beat writers over the head with is:
We are NOT all unemotional robots. Or that I'm incapable of feeling anything. In many cases, we are actually over-sensitive to things (Bright light hurts, picking up sounds others cannot hear, not liking how certain items/things feel to our fingers/touch, etc.).
And humans are able to communicate in other ways if we do not have the ability to talk.

Why is it that I never see overly talkative kids/adults with autism that want to share everything they know about their interests very excitedly with other people in fiction? I've encountered others in real life like this.
Nope, got to stare at the wall while not saying a word and having a very sad face because I'm in my own made-up world and that's bad according to non-autistics.
Also, non-social, my ass. Awkwardly social? Yeah, but that's because autistic people do want to make friends despite the handicaps they have.
Sometimes autistics are much better at social situations than non-autistics are. That's because non-autistics decided that was such a serious problem for us and made sure we were taught socialization skills in school.

ChaosOverlordZ said...

your story reminds be of my love of Dr who, comeing into it long after its start and enjoying it, only to see if give into the hands of somone who dosnt understand it, DAMN YOU MOFFET.

Doresh said...

You know, it's weird DC believes the true problem of their comics is continuity, when it has ALWAYS been unqualified editors making stupid decisions because they apparently believe writers are idiots.

It's also seems like they do these reboots because the editors are too lazy to do research on the characters they're about to edit (<_<)

And is it just me, or do some of the covers have a slight manga Oo ?

P.S.: Epsilon almost looks like a Sentai member with a jacket.

megaL3 said...

I liked the speech at the end. It's a shame, though, that the series ended so badly.

Anonymous said...

I have to agree that stable characters are not the least bit fun

They are way too predictable, and therefore boring


This is why characters like Deadpool, the Punisher, Spider Jerusalem, and Lobo will always be better than the likes of Superman or Wonder Woman

too bad the average person in america is afraid of the unpredicrtable

Julie Paulson said...

I love this retrospective. I like hearing about good books that you actually enjoy once in a while, and the way you ended, by explaining why the reboot sucks in light of all this, really puts the whole thing in perspective. While I love your every day reviews, this sort of retrospective is refreshing once in a while. Look forward to 2099 later on.

James Picard said...

Best previously on ever. But does this mean that ThatGuyWithTheGlasses.com exists in the Channel Awesomeverse too? Weeeeird. Anyways, great to see the conclusion. Oh, and good luck with finishing Mystic Force!

Holo Linksano said...

I love how you hate the New 52 because i hate it to, In fact i havent read a single issue of the New 52 since it was released

Anonymous said...

Good Review Linkara thought the intro was hilarious

nathan larue said...

Great Review Linkara I loved the intro it was hilarious

Walter Kovacs said...

Geoff Johns run on Teen Titans got overwhelmingly positive reception from comic fans and reviewers, it's my favourite Teen Titans run and enjoyed much more than the Titans series. Each to their own opinion, but the Geoff Johns issues got more positive reception, just saying. Also when are you going to be reviewing The Culling?

Geoff Johns Teen Titans 4 LYF!!!!!

Philip Pangrac said...

The thing about "Why do the Titans exist" parallels a question I've wondered about:

What role do the X-Men see themselves performing by fighting supervillains or intergalactic threats?

I know the basic idea is to present a "mutants can be trusted and should be treated equally" image to the public, but it always strikes me as weird to see them doing what is essentially the same job as the Avengers or Fantastic Four. Whenever the characters are acting like 'ordinary' superheroes it strikes me that they're not really fulfilling their unique niche in the Marvel Universe or comics in general.

And I know that superhero antics are the real selling point, so focusing on the social/cultural issue of mutants trying to fight for equality isn't going to get much space. But it's weird.

JerryScott said...

Nice ending to March of the Titans. I also really liked the Previously On Segment. You would've probably won the conflict with the Nostalgia Chick. For one thing, you're a guy who wears glasses, so the site can keep the name. Anyway, good review as usual.

Jordan Levells said...

I have one question: what's the name of the instrumental song that plays in the end before the credits?

Other than that, excellent review as always.

Swimming Ben said...

I love how the head of the DEO is a skeleton

I fell in love with Mr. Bones ever since the first time appeared in Batwoman

Good to see DC knew which elements were worthy of keeping

John Mourby said...

Quite the review Linkara.
I may criticise you more than I praise you (when I bother to comment at all) but I only do that because sadly it's often easier to say negative things than positive things (on the internet anyway).
But what the hay, you’re awesome man. Thanks for sharing something special to you :)

You were the first internet reviewer I stared watching, and now three years later you’re still in my top 4, so thanks for all the good times (my favourite of your reviews is still the Doom comic. “I’M A RESPECTED NUERO-SURGEON LET’S HAVE A LOOK AT THAT SPINE!!!!!!” Still makes me laugh now, and I don’t laugh that often).
Also please do a crossover with Oancitizen. I don’t care what it is I’ll watch it ASAP.


And now on with the negative things.....
I first came across Rose Wilson in Geoff John's run on the Teen Titians, where she became one of my favourite characters in the book. Which is odd for me as I normally can't stand characters who are only snarky and unpleasant.
(On a side note even though it's note a traditional "bad" comic in terms of art, storytelling or execution I would gladly pay money to see you go after Warren Elis’s The Authority. Imagine a murderous, guiltless superhero team who are constantly snarky and smug, have little internal drama, are never in any real danger and are shown as being awesome for it all. Plus this is the comic we can blame for the rise of ‘decompressed’ storytelling in comics so there ought to be something worth saying in a review)
But I found Rose endearing because it was obvious that beneath all the barbs and the sarcasm was a good person who wanted to be a hero and a nice person but who didn’t trust herself and wasn’t really sure of being accepted. I didn’t know anything about her role in the old Titans book, and I will admit her de-aging (and to a lesser extent her personality change) is a shameless retcon. But not having read her older appearances I can’t love her any the less for it (maybe a little like your enjoyment of Danny Chase).

Part 1

John Mourby said...

Part 2
On that note I’m slightly surprised by the scale of your dislike of sarcastic Rose given your love for Danny Chase and Avon from Blake’s 7 (at least I think it was Avon?) But I’m guessing the difference here is the continuity factor? Well each to his own.

In regards to “Women in Refrigerators”. I’ve looked at Gail Simone’s webpage about that and she seems to have put every bad thing that ever happened to a female character at Marvel and DC on that list (Including Betty Ross being turned into Harpy which only lasted for on issue). I get the feeling that she’s saying you should never have bad stuff happen to female characters and if you do it’s because you’re sexist.
The idea of a character being killed off as cliché motivation can be applied to male characters too. Like in Cry for Justice (amazing how there’s always more bad stuff to find there). If I remember correctly the alien Starman’s boyfriend is killed off panel to give movtivearion for…… whatever he did in Cry for Justice. Making the boyfriend a “Man in a Refridgerator”.
I guess I’m saying it’s worth knowing what is sexism and what’s just sloppy writing (and when it’s neither and just something bad happening to a female character).


I see what you mean about valuing the history of these characters and I feel it’s a noble sentiment. But on my darker days I feel that comic writers (and some readers too) only care about (and will only develop stories from) what is iconic to them and all character development will be swept under the rug so the ‘Classic’ vision can return time and again. But maybe that’s a quitter’s attitude.


The Jessie Quick having sex with her mother’s fiancée. Yeah, western superhero comics tend to be like soap operas, but that was soap-opera-like in the worst possible way.

When I saw Mr Bones my first thought was “Black Mask? I that you? Where are your eyes?”
Why does one of the black kids look like a really shot adult instead of a child? If the artist was the one who got rid of them maybe he drew them wired on purpose.

Also Transformers had new members replacing nearly all the old ones twice and Beast wars had a completely new cast. Beast wars was a new Transformers show but it was a contention of the old one . Sorry (I’m going to hide from your wrath now).


Finally I feel sad that Argent has faded into the background. Going be these reviews she seems like a cool character.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Unlike your first 3 parts, which got me rather excited about comics, this one is rather dissuading. I mean, how good can they be if even your favorite series's second half was riddled with flaws?"

It's always the risk you run. Honestly, if they hadn't decided to do Graduation Day, Titans would have probably turned itself around.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Unlike your first 3 parts, which got me rather excited about comics, this one is rather dissuading. I mean, how good can they be if even your favorite series's second half was riddled with flaws?"

It's always the risk you run. Honestly, if they hadn't decided to do Graduation Day, Titans would have probably turned itself around.

Lizard-Man said...

While I may disagree with you on the 2003 Titans comic in someway, I can totally understand where you're coming from on the last bit.

I got involved in comics around the mid-point of the 2003 series when I started paying attention to them and really bothered to start collecting them. And to me, those characters were my Titans, I followed them. And like your favourite run, yeah, it wasn't perfect and it didn't end all that great, but they were mine. And to know that all that had just been brushed aside is pretty sad. Worse yet, that they're just redoing everything when we've already done it. We have these stories now, and they're good, we don't need a reboot for them.

Like you it's not because I think my Titans were better, it's just I don't see why they had to be left behind and become non-canon. It seems like such a waste. I can still read them, I can still enjoy them, but now that I know how the story will end for them in all these events not existing I feel a bit hollow. Like it's so disrespectful to those stories, saying they don't matter anymore.

I loved Rose Wilson, I loved Beastboy and Raven's rommance and I loved what we got to see from them all in those books. But in the end, DC decided something I loved wasn't worth preserving in canon and that's pretty depressing.

So, whether I agree with your opinion or not on the 2003 series, I can at least say I get your position and I share your dissapointment. The New 52 is here to stay, but I'll always remember the good times even if DC doesn't want to.

Steve said...

I was actually gonna cite Babylon 5 and its rather horriffic cast retention record for a show which swapped out its leads, but then I remembered that we wound up giving a damn about the new guys replacing the old.

Here's my main question about Mr. Helfer (sp) and his...unique choice to replace the Titans: has he never watched a minute of television in his life? The character archetype he chose, the genius kool kids that the five year olds will relate to? This is the same archetype which gave us Scrappy Doo, Cousin Oliver, and Wesley Frikking Crusher. Is that what you thought, Helfer? That people liked Wesley? Seriously?

Anonymous said...

...I don't recognize the woman in the beginning..

10reapaer01 said...

Harmonicajay, if you like JSA, I'd recommend Earth 2 if you don't already read it. It's the Golden Age heroes on their own reality without any sort of Justice League, sort of like Pre-Crisis Earth-Two. If you decide to go for it, just don't look at the writer before you read a few issues; you will not be happy.

lordjim6 said...

Umm... which Golden age hero killed the Gold digger? Just curious.... Also, I feel your pain. The Defenders is one of my favorite teams, and it got canceled becase the editors at Marvel wanted another X-book. So, intsead of simply having Beast, Angel, and Iceman quit the team, we have to kill off every character besides them and cancel the book. Yeah, that makes sense...

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"What I don't get is they show the tower getting destroyed when earlier as it was being rebuilt it was clearly being shown as being made as an underground complex with the tower being a hologram. Was the tower really destroyed or the holo just turned off? More questions for the too many."

I figured that since the panel only depicted beams of light coming from the tower you could argue it wasn't the building exploding, it was just the light of the explosion. Plus every time they needed to dig around in the HQ's ruins, they were digging in deeper into the place instead of, say, climbing half-destroyed levels.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"What if I want to start from ground zero?
(and from the conversations I had with people, the majority are like that)

There is a reason why there are so many different versions of Transformers, My Little Pony, Ninja Turtles, and even Littlest Pet Shop

Most people want to hear a story from the beginning, and have zero tolerance for outdated content"

That's all well and good, but the DC Reboot DOESN'T approach it like that. I'd have less of a problem with its continuity issues if it DID approach it like that.

Plus you're citing a different demographic. Transformers, My Little Pony, and etc. are not interested in keeping the same viewers once they've grown up into a certain age bracket. As far as they're concerned, they're interested in hooking new viewers who are now that younger age, thus they reset everything into a new continuity.

John Smith said...

I don’t see it so...
Spoony came bake to life but you didn’t care, if you say it was because Spoony had The Black Lantern Ring and the Nostalgic Critic had no explanation why, than okay (and yes I will say “I don’t see it so...” in every comment.)

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"And is it just me, or do some of the covers have a slight manga Oo ?"

That's because Kia Asamiya happened to do several covers for the book.

stupidmation said...

I think the ending speech explains the concept of nostalgia, or how it should be, especially in cartoons. Respecting what came before but being different and new.
Not trying to be the next big thing, just trying to have quality. As I am hopeful that cartoons will return to the quality they once had, I'm sure you hope Titans will return to the quality of the first half, or even better(I'm using the word quality a lot in this)

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Umm... which Golden age hero killed the Gold digger? Just curious...."

Captain Triumph. He claimed that it was the soul of his brother that actually killed him, but due to the nature of his abilities, that's unclear.

Artman--yup2U said...

I loved that Previously On segment. Every bit with the Critic was hilarious. However part of me wanted Malcolm and Rachel to pop their heads in to confuse Linkara even more. Especially because their main characters for NC haven't debuted yet, even though we know they're coming.

Those Got Milk ads with SpongeBob, the PowerPuff Girls, and Timberwolves-era Kevin Garnett on the back made me smile. Though I feel bad for letting it distract me from the review.

I give you a pass as far as not including the Teen Titans theme song in the March of The Titans videos, because it was used at the end of the episode before the retrospective began. I hope more people realize this.

As someone who's never held a superhero comic book in his life, (and someone whose first superhero animated series were Static Shock and Teen Titans before getting embedded in the DCAU only recently), what I've been told of the New 52's treatment of the Teen Titans makes me want to give "Teen Titans Go!" more benefit of the doubt. Better to take a comedic angle of a show but retain its voice actors and theme song with in-show continuity maintenance levels TBA than to not have the show at all during a time when they elsewhere don't exist in new material.

Thank you Linkara for a great retrospective after such fun entertainment on the Megastream. Somehow you can't help but wonder if these executive meddlings in comic book storylines originated from a few rounds of Cards Against Humanity.

Anonymous said...

Every time I hear about the DCU reboot, I keep getting a worse picture of it. Does DC editorial have a personal vendetta against the Titans, cutting away its history, it really seems like they just plain don't like it.

Jessica said...

I want to start with by saying I was a long time reader of comics until about 2009 when I finally just couldn't take it anymore.

I also really, really loved "The Titans" and I felt bad about how everything ended, the reboots and finally deciding that everything I loved never happened all. I'm still a huge supporter of the medium (what with working in a "local" comic store any all that) but I can't bring myself to invested in series again.

Writer and editors are not the same position, nor should marketing be given right to meddle with either. That is how I feel about a lot of media; video games, movies, anime... the list goes on.

I know making money is important for a company but it makes me sad that the focus has shifted from making interested and unique stories to basically telling one of four select stories using a group of between one and ten archetypical characters, facing off against between two and seven
archetypical black clad villains whose motives are one of three possible choices.

No need to fully list then, just reading that your mind will have filled it in.

Before I end I know there are still good comics being made. I work around them everyday however I still would rather see the characters I grew up reading (from the late 70's through the early 2000s) grow as well rather than reset every now and again and return to a time when they were "popular".

I'm no real critic and my opinions shouldn't influence others, heck I don't even think my opinion is the right way to do thing objectively, but I'm entitled to how I feel just as anyone else and Linkara you are basically the voice of the medium I love(ed) that seems to care the most about the art form. Keep up the entertaining look at comics both good and bad because I value your opinions. Thanks for doing this retrospective I haven't felt this nostalgic in a long time.

CMWaters said...

Very interesting look at the books throughout all this. Yeah, Titans seems to have had one messed up history.

Also, since I browsed through the comments and didn't see it mentioned: slight error in your credits.

You listed the "Just raises too many questions" line as being from "Batman Forever" instead of "Batman Begins". Small little thing, easy slip to make.

BTW...when you did your line of "Team Replacement" thing, why did my mind go to Power Rangers Turbo (besides me having watched all 51 eps of Gokaiger)?

doctordoom85 said...

I respect your opinion on the reboot, Linkara, even though I feel differently (to me, the stories still happened but in a different continuity, so they still matter in THAT universe and that's fine by me), after all no decision made by comic book companies will please everyone. But I was taken aback by your claim that the superheroes stories of the DCnU that are similar to any of the prior continuities could never be better than what's come before, merely just as good or worse. To me, that feels like an unfair generalization towards all the current writers.

It's the same attitude lots of people give movie remakes. Now I understand that there's TOO MANY of them, but people who act like absolutely none of them can surpass the original are just being ridiculous. I don't think I'm out of line for saying that Ocean's 11 and True Grit are better than the originals, and let's not forget John Carpenter's The Thing was the 2nd adaptation of the short story. Now I'm not saying that most or all of the current writers will surpass what has come before, but let's not act like it's impossible to fathom that some of them could pull it off.

To me, the reboot is an exciting opportunity to build a brand new universe that we can enjoy for years to come. The prior universe still has plenty of trades and omnibuses of decades of material for newer readers to check out and DC is still releasing new collections of that material so it's not like the old universe is being treated like something we shouldn't care about anymore. To me, continuity is nice but is hardly necessary to tell a darn good superhero yarn. Just tell good stories and characters, and if you want to reboot the whole thing another 20 years down the road, that's fine by me.

ST said...

So upon hearing about Jesse Quick and her mother's fiance (yuck) my mind immediately goes to 1 Corinthians chapter 5, which I'm sure works the other way too.

"Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Metal Gear Solid 2 had a similar storyline with Otacon revealing his dad killed himself because Otacon was sleeping with his step-mother. As in his father's wife.

That particular angle doesn't belong in either a video game or a comic book. It's creepy. There's no purpose for it other than shock value. And it's creepy.

Finite Shadow said...

I have enjoyed March of the Titans immensely, thank you for making it.

Much in the same way this was your Titans, Geoff Johns' was mine. It was fairly revisionist with what came before but it was the first comic I was getting regularly when I was 12. Sorry it screwed up some stuff you liked.

And while the New 52 reboot is hit or miss, the "Teen Titans" boo is indeed awful, here's hoping we'll get a few bits of good continuity back in some kind of Zero hour situation

Terra Ranger said...

I feel you Mr. Lovhaug, in these recent years there has been a lost of respect to the classics and probably this happens due to the fact that the people that found them important are no a minority due to new generations and the like. I just hope we don't get a power rangers reboot anytime soon

Anonymous said...

"Transformers, My Little Pony, and etc. are not interested in keeping the same viewers once they've grown up into a certain age bracket. As far as they're concerned, they're interested in hooking new viewers who are now that younger age, thus they reset everything into a new continuity."

I can't really say I agree with that. Transformers has new series to attract new viewers, but they always, and I mean always use design elements, story points, character aspects, etc. from the old when crafting the new. This includes things like Optimus still being a truck to incoporating things like the Wreckers (originally from the UK Marvel comics run). Not to mention, they don't always isolate continuities. Beast Wars is in the same timeline as the G1 cartoon. And Transformers Prime, Transformers Rescue Bots, and Transformers War for Cybertron/Fall of Cybertron are all in continuity with each other (writing hiccups not withstanding). I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure Ninja Turtles follows a somewhat similar way of doing things.

As for DC's reboot, the point was in large point to remove much of the decades of continuity preventing new readers from jumping in. I myself am one of those that started reading as a result of it. Previously I would only pick up Elseworld stories or things mostly isolated from the mainstream continuity. There was just too much to keep up with without devoting large amounts of time (checking wikis constantly) and/or money (so many trades) on top of my other hobbies.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"You listed the "Just raises too many questions" line as being from "Batman Forever" instead of "Batman Begins". Small little thing, easy slip to make."

Erm, the clip IS from Batnan Forever.

ConorTheHarris said...

Liked the Nostalgia Critic cameo at the start.
I was surprised by Andrew Helfer and his lack of knowledge of the Titans, but he became the main editor for the series! That's like if a band got a new producer who had absolutely no clue what the band's sound was, and completely changed it.

Great review though, Linkara. Looking forward to the next review (and to hear about the train-wreck that is "Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day"!)

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"As for DC's reboot, the point was in large point to remove much of the decades of continuity preventing new readers from jumping in. I myself am one of those that started reading as a result of it. Previously I would only pick up Elseworld stories or things mostly isolated from the mainstream continuity. There was just too much to keep up with without devoting large amounts of time (checking wikis constantly) and/or money (so many trades) on top of my other hobbies."

Except now they're creating an entire new continuity that people have to hunt down the back-issues for and as years go by, it will continue to grow.

And even then, Green Lantern didn't REALLY reset. They still have all the previous continuity that is continually being built up and people have to hunt down those previous trades and stories. Of course, those feature characters and situations that no longer reflect the new direction of the DCU.

So if that's the case, why the hell didn't they hard reset EVERYTHING and make stories more stand-alone as opposed to the crossovers that have been occurring?

"I can't really say I agree with that. Transformers has new series to attract new viewers, but they always, and I mean always use design elements, story points, character aspects, etc. from the old when crafting the new."

Except that doesn't have to do with preserving continuity as much as it is preserving brand recognition. As far as everyday Joe-not-following-the-actual-TV-series is concerned, Optimus Prime is a truck because that's really as far as he NEEDS to know to recognize it. It's about building show mythology, terminology, and brand recognition amongst either casual fans or people who don't actively follow it but still recognize it. It's part of creating any show or franchise - hell, it's the same thing with Atop the Fourth Wall - creating mythos that are recognizeable to people. There are plenty of people who don't watch AT4W on Channel Awesome, but recognize me as the comic book guy who yells "I am a Man."

And while Beast Wars and G1 WERE in the same continuity, you'll notice that they didn't actually start building up that continuity ALL THAT MUCH until the end of season 2, with the exception of the episode with Starscream. Writers who are willing to reference or maintain continuity are great, but they don't LET that continuity interfere with telling good stories - they simply know how to build on what already has foundations.

Scott Tibbs said...

I agree with your sentiments about the New 52 reboot. The entire purpose of the reboot was to make the characters accessible to new readers by wiping away literally generations of continuity.

The New 52 not only failed to accomplish that, it actually made it worse.

If you're going to do a reboot, then do a reboot. Start everyone from scratch with a new origin. Marvel's "ultimate" line is a great example of that - and that was not even a reboot, but a completely new universe running alongside Marvel's existing universe.

What you should NOT do is decide that some stories happened and some didn't. It is very confusing to try to figure out what happened and what didn't.

And if someone who has been reading comics since 1979 cannot figure it out, what hope does someone who has never picked up a comic before have?

And they got rid of my favorite book, the Justice Society.

Ellipsis Flood said...

Ah, delicious meta... *slurp*

On 'why do they need to exist': I don't care. They moved the moon.

I feel like some people don't know about writing, or respect for the canon, for that matter.

Also: I like continuity. Reboots like the 2011 one are what pisses me off. The thought that this can and will happen again stops me from being invested in comics and looking for a place where I can buy them.

And if you ever end up rebooting AT4W, I'll walk over the damn ocean and slap you with a tuna I'll pick up on the way.

rutana said...

Bushido, hu?
So... not only is he a "reformed" "Gangster-Rapper", a confessed WoW player, made his own movie about him and thought of making a political party... he also calls himself a Superhero?
...somehow doesn't surprise me...



...I'm sorry... it's a bad joke, if you can even call it that way, but since we have a Rapper here in germany who calls himself Bushido, I couldn't resist to draw that connection, my bad.

I'm sorry to hear how bad it hit your favorite superhero-team though. Bad stories are one thing, but the denial about all what happened is... harsh and really unneccessairy in my opinion. I've never read them, or watched the animated series, but reading Batman and Batgirl from the reboot (after your reccommendations), which made me interested in Nightwing, and watching your reviews really made me interested in the Titans themselfs. It's a shame, really...


Also, what was it with these covers in the purposely old 80s anime style? o.O
Trying to catch Manga-Fans of guard?

ShatteredSanity said...

You know what would be awesome? If A bunch of the writers who were good at meta kind of stuff wrote a big crossover... Where all the characters that were erased from canon due to the Reboot were in some sort of limbo outside the universe and were trying to get back home. And along the way, they realize how different things have become and maybe some of them decide to go to a new universe or fade away or something, while others keep fighting to get back home.

And maybe not just the characters that were erased because of the reboot, but also the characters that were dramatically changed because of it. Like, the old version of Starfire, or the wheel-chair bound Barbara Gordon.

And the forces that keep the universe together are trying to keep them from coming back, because they might let in some sort of evil or something.

I dunno, I would read something like that.

Ian Yoxon said...

As a man with autism, I'm insulted by that . It is horribly offensive cause autism dosen't work that way. Its kinda like aspergers. Anyway, as a long time fan of comics, it saddens me how I nerver picked up this series of the titans. It sounds great from the start. Then starts getting bad near the end. Its like some other series I was into. Starts off great, but ends with bad stories. Also Epsilon reminds me of Darkhawk mixed with super sentai.

Its a shame how DC's new 52, while having some good books like Action Comics and Wonder Woman there have been a lot of bad titles like Teen Titans. Have anyone seen what Raven looks like now. It looks god aweful.

After this month I have to say, thank you for March of the titans. I really enjoyed it and reminds me how another team of heroes got me into comics. So thank you and hope to see more of your videos soon.

Dave said...

It doesn't look like anyone else explained the Legion crossover, so here goes.

Unless I missed something else somewhere, this is from the post-Graduation Day team. Superboy, while on his first official date with Wonder Girl, is sucked through a vortex in time and ends up with the reboot Legion for a short run in their book. But, because... time travel, from Wonder Girl's perspective, he instantly returns. The Persuader (from the Fatal Five) has used his ultra sharp axe to cut apart reality himself, and brought Fatal Fives from a hundred different universes to form "The Fatal Five Hundred".

So Superboy is sent back to bring the Titans to help. After a decent amount of comic book stuff, Superboy chooses to stay with the Titans instead of the Legion. The Reboot Legion is sent off into limbo, where they would stay until Legion of 3 Worlds, and the Threeboot Legion is set up.

The Titans end up in a dark future where a number of them have gone evil, starting a run of way too many stories in the row where the Titans fight some dark version of themselves (in addition to the dark future, you had the Terror Titans and Slade's Titans East.)

I really liked the Johns Titans at first (ignoring the sillier elements like the shot to Impulse's kneecap causing maturity), but, much like this book, creative team shifts really dragged the book down.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

Asking why the Titans need to exist is just like asking why comics and to an extent fiction in general need to exist.

FugueforFrog said...

I don't get why comic companies keep rebooting instead of just making new readers interested in the past history. Are they that obsessed in keeping up or selling toys and movie rights instead of, you know, comic books? Sadly the answer is yes...except the problem is you have to find a way to draw them in and the way the system is structured doesn't seem to want to make it work. I'd say something's got to give but unfortunately these moves always get hype instead of, you know, good stories by good writers.

Sad about the last half of "The Titans" run; and it should be fun to get to Graduation Day when you do. I don't get the kids but I remember the Jessie Quick rant from the "heroes becoming villains" episode so I knew what to expect. And too bad hearing about Bushido considering at least he got a cameo in the end-game of the TT animated series...but of course welcome to comic books where death makes things stupider.

Lizard-Man said...

Because you mentioned it, I feel the need to help you out a little from my own experience.

I have aspergers syndrome. It is a derivative slightly less debilating mental disorder, seperated from that of autism, but still in the same category.

As part of my therapy I spent time with more severe cases of autism. Allow me to explain some of the more potent symptoms. They generally regard to stuttering or slurred speech, inability to converse or interact social, sometimes an even general anxiety towards it. At times there can be a lack of empathy with others, although that does make them incapable of feeling empathy, it's jsut more difficult for them. Autistics generally possess strange tics or bodily actions and can sometimes be prone to violent outbursts. Again, it has to do with them being unable to fully act in a social manner.

It is not caused by vaccines, there is no evidence, I'm just saying that for the purposes of this short explanation.

Now if Apex was being like socially aloof or mute or didn't talk, that can be a form of autism, but I'd suggest reading up on the condition further.

I hope this helps a little if the subject ever comes up again. You were right not to press into a topic you don't fully understand, as your intentions could have been misconstruned as offensive. It's a touchy subject, one you must tread carefully with.

Again, I hope that helps you out in the future should another autistic character rear his or her head in a review.

RDMacQ said...

I know you disagree, but I kind of understand the argument that the Titans don't really have a "mission statement" and that it is a detriment to the team. Granted, how the Titans went about it was not the best way to address the issue.

Teams like the Justice League DO have a mission statement. They are a collection of the Earth's mightiest heroes, united against threats too great for any one hero to face by themselves. The Doom Patrol are a group of unlikely outcasts who investigate and explore weird mysteries around the world. Over at Marvel, the Avengers fill the same role as the Justice League as a gathering of the world's greatest champions united against a common goal to serve as the front line against those threats that endanger the entire world. The Fantastic Four are explorers charting the unknown corners of the Universe, coming across incredible wonders and horrific threats. The X-Men are a group of outcasts, dedicated to proving that mutants are not a threat to humanity, all the while protecting both mutants from human threats and innocent humans from dangerous mutants. It's these through lines that give these teams dimensions, goals and a specific focus, which helps cement their identities in a larger universe.

For other teams without a unique mission statement, it can lead to redundancies and lack of focus. Again, to use Marvel as an example, in addition to the Avengers there were also the Defenders. And the Champions of LA. The gimmick of the Defenders being that they were pretty much staffed with those characters that weren't Avengers, and that they were a "non-team." But after you get by that, you are left to wonder what exactly do the Defenders do that the Avengers couldn't do as well. They just become a collection of characters that aren't part of another team. They're former X-Men or Avengers guest stars. The same thing could be said of the Champions. What do they do that couldn't be done with the Avengers? And if it could be done with the Avengers, then why aren't they here? And, sadly, that same question could be applied to the Titans.

Granted, not at first. Initially, the Titans did stick out from the pack, as mainly an assemblage of the teen heroes in the DCU. And that works, for the time that they were created in. However, as times change and the audience becomes more sophisticated, they being to ask questions and spend more time evaluating the source material. It's no longer just an idle past time, but something to be discussed an evaluated. And as the Teen Titans moved from just being Teens to being young adults and "Titans," those questions levied at other teams like the Defenders or the Champions now apply more to the team itself. They're no longer a group of heroes who have to stay out of the battle since they're young and inexperienced. They have just as if not more experience than most other heroes out there. Which brings up other questions other than "Why isn't the Justice League here if the threat is that big?" This leads to the problem of scaling back on such threats in order to keep the "big dogs" out of the way so they just don't show up and solve all the problems in a single issue. But this also causes the problem of making their adventures seem shallow in comparison. When you've got the JLA staving off an invasion by the forces of Heaven itself, you need to really stand out to make your mark. There are also such questions as "If these heroes are so experienced, then why don't they join the JLA?" which becomes even more pertinent when faced with the precedent of characters like Wally West or Kyle Rayner who did "graduate" from the Titans to the JLA. Yes, there is the nostalgia factor of the teams' history, but it doesn't help differentiate the team in a crowded marketplace. (cont->)

RDMacQ said...

(->cont) Now that isn't to say that there isn't a role FOR the Titans, or the Teen Titans, overall in the DCU that IS unique. It just means focusing on the teams strengths. Which seems to be from this retrospective to be the family dynamic. The Teen Titans don't HAVE to be out there trying to stop threats like Trigon. They CAN stop it if the issue arises. But they could mainly serve to be a "support group" for the young heroes of the DCU. The kids without mentors, without homes or stable families. Characters like Starfire can serves as mentors, passing down what they've learned. Nightwing mentoring angry young kids who've lost everything how to channel their anger and that things can get better and you can find a family again. Donna Troy (if she does come back) can serve as a supportive ear, helping kids deal with issues regarding their identity and their place in the world. Cyborg can help council kids who feel like outcasts or freaks due to their powers. The list goes on. But that's just my take on it. I'm not sure that would "fix" the issue that I do feel holds the Titans back when they don't have the "Teen" label attached. But I do feel it might be a good way to help the team stand out and honor their long history.

jenbrait said...

Oh my God! You buried That Guy With The Glasses because he looked like the Nostalgia Critic?! Well that would explain how he became the devil in the 200th episode. Also I am going out on a limb here and saying that woman in the beginning is the same one in Jaeris' vlog back in Youngblood #5. I could be wrong however. Also love the review, shame how the Titans went down though.

doctordoom85 said...

Wait, was there really that much continuity left in the DCnU? Grant Morrison's Batman, sure (but that's not really a lot, all the run is available in trade so readers can easily catch up), but with Green Lantern (granted, I've only read the main series, still need to pick up Corps and New Guardians) it's merely been a few references here or there (like, "hey, Blackest Night happened!"), hardly that much that would confuse new readers.

It's understandable that Batman and GL kinda turned out this way, Morrison's story with Damien wasn't finished yet, and Geoff Johns had brought a lot of stuff to the GL franchise with the different Corps. Plus, you wanted yourself for the Titans history to sorta remain intact.

Tyler said...

Well you know one show that switched out the main characters that did get better. Power Rangers Turbo, but the less said about that the better.

Anonymous said...

With the whole team replacement thing, Thunderbolts had that happen to them. TWICE!

The first was when issue 75 hit, Quesada wanted to catch lightning like the New X-Men and replace the entire team with a premise of an underground fightclub...it stunk so much it got the book canceled in 6 issues.

And now, once again at issue 175, the Thunderbolts ended and is now replaced by Red Hulk, Venom, Punisher, Electra, and Deadpool... removing the entire idea of the team being villains who want to become heroes to just be about crude and gratuitous violence.

I don't know what's worse, the fact that people are falling for the gimmick of the newest iteration of the Thunderbolts, which is AWFUL, or that Jonathan Hickman who is writing the Avengers books continually tweets that he's going to kill off Songbird...

Anonymous said...

I'll admit, the review of the issues 1-25 (plus the other Titan series you've mentioned) actually seem interesting enough to look into, so nice work in getting someone who only cares about, Blue Beetle, Aquaman and Black Panther (when they're being written by competent writers) interested in a different title. Nicely done Linkara.

And then 26-50 makes my interest disintegrate. The idea of the kids replacing the Titans reminds me of advice given to established adult actors on The Economist. Never accept co-starring with a child actor. It effectively means that you're considered out of date and just there to help a new actor advance their career.

Whining side note:
And for the love of YHWH, whatever you think of the X-Men will someone please just let the Joker DIE and stay DEAD!? He effectively kills any drama because we all know that he. will. never. die. And neither will Batman. It's bad when I liked the Kingdom Come series just because someone had the brains to kill the over hyped clown.

Anonymous said...

Any particular reason a lot of the later covers look like manga art? It's kinda weird to see, to be honest.

It's funny how all the ideas spouted to renew interest in comics keep shrinking the audience smaller and smaller while people still enjoy the heroes in other mediums.

Anonymous said...

"There is a reason why there are so many different versions of Transformers...

Most people want to hear a story from the beginning, and have zero tolerance for outdated content"

Transformers had multiple continuities from the start: the cartoon and the comics. (Later the Japanese cartoon split from the US, and the UK and US comics are in slightly different continuities.) The current publisher of TF comics fairly recently picked up where Marvel left off in the 1990s.

Anonymous said...

"If you're going to do a reboot, then do a reboot. Start everyone from scratch with a new origin. Marvel's "ultimate" line is a great example of that - and that was not even a reboot, but a completely new universe running alongside Marvel's existing universe"

Yeah, just keep Jeph Loeb the hell away from it. If I remember, Loeb pulled a Helfer with the Ultimate Universe and we got Ultimatum result.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"It doesn't look like anyone else explained the Legion crossover, so here goes."

No, no, no, no.

THAT is different.

I'm referring to Titans/Legion of Superheroes: Universe Ablaze. It was a prestige-format mini-series.

Banner Brave said...

Great Video As Always, you only keep getting better and better.

For your consideration: Minimun Carnage

JB said...

I thought the team's mission, if it had to had one, was to tutor the younger heroes (Jessie Quick, Damage and Argent) in early issues.
There again, it was also the purpose of Geoff Johns' JSA at the time, so you could even blame him for that deraiment too if you stretch it.
I generally like Johns work myself, even if he has a tendency to derail characters for his own stories. Case in point, he coopted Damage in the JSA, making more angsty and edgy.

Saintash said...

Your speech at the end really hit me in the heart. As a Legion of super heroes fan that, i understand first hand about the Horrors of DC Reboot and meddling, and the whipping away of 40 years of history Character developments. and Editors who don't care about the book. the dropped story plots, the changing of Writers mid issues, the the retelling of classic stories half as good as they once were, making the team 'Edgy.' changing characters to be more dickish version.......everything they have done with super boy and girl since the first infinite crisis. bring people back Just so they can kill them.

yeah i know that pain well.

but no matter what they do, i still have the memories (and the issues) to look back on legion and the lessons they taught me. if you are your self you will find people who will think the world of you, even if they feel like worlds away. the the best families aren't always blood. and you can make some one Amazing by simply being their friend.

Frosty said...

ZOMG! You and the Critic. Crossover. NAOW!!!

Khm... I mean... it's been an interesting month, thank you. :)

Ozaline said...

@John "The idea of a character being killed off as cliché motivation can be applied to male characters too. Like in Cry for Justice (amazing how there’s always more bad stuff to find there). If I remember correctly the alien Starman’s boyfriend is killed off panel to give movtivearion for…… whatever he did in Cry for Justice. Making the boyfriend a “Man in a Refridgerator”.
I guess I’m saying it’s worth knowing what is sexism and what’s just sloppy writing (and when it’s neither and just something bad happening to a female character)."


Okay, see the thing is not that you can't have something bad happen to a female character... All stories are driven on conflict, superhero books usually on physical conflict... that means bad things need to happen to the characters. The point of Gail Simone's blog was to point out the frequency of which things happen to women, especially when they are:

A) Done to women to advance a man's storyline, especially when said woman is a hero on her own right.
B) Are not reversed with the frequency that they are with men.

Batman's back was broken in his own book and he went on to have it healed and we got to see what the world was like with a darker Batman who kills, Barbara's spine was shattered to advance her father's and Batman's stories... she was not healed until the reboot (though Oracle was super awesome in her own way.)

And in Cry for Justice the whole "bury your gays" thing? That's just as bad, gay characters are treated as badly as women if not worse, I'm pretty sure Gail Simone would be on board for that sentiment.



@Linkara

"Plus you're citing a different demographic. Transformers, My Little Pony, and etc. are not interested in keeping the same viewers once they've grown up into a certain age bracket. As far as they're concerned, they're interested in hooking new viewers who are now that younger age, thus they reset everything into a new continuity."

And that's only talking the TV shows... or both Transformers and GI Joe they've continued the Marvel comics with the original numbering... So while they present new versions they keep the original story going. Since most of the mythos for both GI Joe and Transformers sprang from the comics and not the cartoon it's still reaching out to their core fans more than DC.

Tracey said...

So, who DID you end-up burying?
And why do I feel Phaelous will end-up being really confused?

Also, love how you say how any character can be awesome if written well (which I completely agree with), yet for some reason you still harbor an irrational hatred for Jason Todd
(which reminds me, a new writer, James Tynion IV, is taking over Red Hood and the Outlaws, and Starfire is getting her classic costume back)

Cletus said...

@Ryan Bates
"Marvel, on the other hand, has never rebooted the 616 universe and can still tell great stories"

What great stories?

The Marvel Universe is one of the worst, incomprehensible messes ever invented by man

The whole damn thing should have been re-booted years ago, then I'd be willing to spend some money on it

They had a good thing going for them with the Ultimate universe, which should have seriously replaced that old wreck of a mainstream universe, but nope
Marvel had to kick the puppy, and keep pretending the bloated carcass is still alive, not realizing it only moves because it's full of worms

Cletus said...

@Yay
"Oh, in case of your 'i'll get you new dog' case, that imaginary 'parents' try to be good parent to their children (even though it doesn't seem to work), but in case of DC, they don't care about their customer."

Hey!
They obviously care for me!
The re-boot was what made me give them a chance in the first place, and they didn't disappoint!

Seriously people, man-up!
Tim Burton's Batman never happened in Nolan's Batman
The Tobey Maguire Spiderman never happened in The Amazing Spiderman, and yet you don't see people whining (at least not sane people with lives)
Unlike comics, movies know when it's time for a fresh start

Cletus said...

@Doresh
"It's also seems like they do these reboots because the editors are too lazy to do research on the characters they're about to edit (<_<)"

No, it's because normal people don't have time to do extensive research whenever they, you know, just want to sit down and relax while reading

Reading should be fun, not a chore!

Cletus said...

@Holo Linksano
"I love how you hate the New 52 because i hate it to, In fact i havent read a single issue of the New 52 since it was released"

Then how can you possibly know you hate it?

William Ngo said...

Don't forget what all of this was given up for - A boring-ass book which I literally fell asleep reading.

Cletus said...

@Linkara
"Plus you're citing a different demographic. Transformers, My Little Pony, and etc. are not interested in keeping the same viewers once they've grown up into a certain age bracket. As far as they're concerned, they're interested in hooking new viewers who are now that younger age, thus they reset everything into a new continuity."

Which is actually a pretty smart strategy, which is why I wonder why comics don't do it more often
Getting new readers every handful of years when a new generation comes of age, seems more lucrative than sticking to a ever shrinking demographic of old fans

I myself refused to read comics until the New 52 came around, and was only familiar with the characters from TV and movies

I did try reading a Batman comic once, as people told me it was good, but it only ended up pissing me off, when the mysterious traitor they were searching for throughout the entire comic, turned out to be Batman's hunchback mechanic, who was never even mentioned in the comic once before the reveal
And this was still an example of a good comic, as it was at least interesting enough for me to read until the end
My attempts at reading Spiderman or X-Men always ended up with me dropping the story halfway through, because I had no idea what's going on (which is why I refuse to ever touch a Marvel comic unless they make a re-boot)
I did however get to read some early Ultimate Spiderman issues at a friend's place, and thus I'm sure they could be good if they just gave it a new start

As the anonymous pointed out, all of the successful, long running franchises create new incarnations of their characters each decade or so, thus remaining accessible to a wide audience
And don't tell me they are just re-hashing the same stories
I happened to see about 4 different versions of Transformers (the Armada anime, the Cartoon Network produced show, the Michael Bay movies, and the show produced by The Hub), and each one of them told completely different stories with the same characters

Also, isn't the reason why people bitch about the new Wonder Woman that she's not exactly like the old version?
And isn't that the same reason why so many people love the new Wonder Woman?
(I sure do, but I never read the original)

Cletus said...

@FugueforFrog
"I don't get why comic companies keep rebooting instead of just making new readers interested in the past history."

Because new readers don't give a damn about history

I know
I'm one of them

SirLordJ said...

I really enjoyed this retrospective, I hope you do something like this in the future with something else.

I can also see why the New 52 infuriates you so since it was such a soft reboot that things like Batman and Green Lantern histories were kept mostly intact even if they don't make sense in the current timeline, yet the entire history of your favorite team was erased as if it wasn't important enough.

Personally I don't have any problems with reboots as long as they tell stories worth telling. That has been the New 52's biggest problem. Wonder Woman has been amazing though, which if I remember you didn't like at first, trust me it has gotten a lot better and believe it or not telling its own story, so no crossovers or mentioning Wonder Woman's current romance. 18 issues on and its been consistently really good. I also think the Earth 2 book is interesting though it has its ups and downs.

I also think Marvel Now is pretty much doing what DC failed to do without having to reset their universe. You can pretty much pick up most of them with little prior knowledge of the character and have a good time. Captain America, Fantastic Four, and FF have been my favorites thus far and it looks likes the writers have been given free-reign to tell the story they want. I know your a bigger DC fan, but I'm curious if you've read any of the Marvel Now books and if so what are your thoughts on the initiative?

Regardless of all that, keep up the good work.

Doresh said...

"No, it's because normal people don't have time to do extensive research whenever they, you know, just want to sit down and relax while reading

Reading should be fun, not a chore!"

This is a super hero comic, not Lost.

I picked up the gist about any important Marvel or DC character out of pure curiosity - and I don't even read comics all that much.

Continuity doesn't necessarily PREVENT you from enjoying a story, but it can make you WANT to read what happened before.

I basically started One Piece halfway through the Alabasta Arc. Did I immediately knew what was going on? Hell no! Did I have fun? HELL YEAH!

DerKork said...

Jordan Levells said...

I have one question: what's the name of the instrumental song that plays in the end before the credits?

Well, Jordan, that is a nice piece of stock music: It's called Showdown and has been used on the show before. If memory serves me well (and Linkara is free to correct me on that), it was the de-facto theme for the gunslinger story arc so far.

Breno Ranyere said...

Why is it so wrong to talk about the kid's powers? Are their powers just riping off other superheroes?
Also, am i the only one who thinks tempest costume is kinda bland...?

Also, did batgirl Cassandra kane ever
joined the titans?

Curtiss Brown said...

Amazing retrospective dude;
Hell, your earliest Titan review plus the awesome animated series caused me to pick up my first trade 'The Judas Contract', so this whole group of videos has been an utter delight.

And sorry to go off topic, but there's something I've been thinking about and was wondering what your opinion was;

Do you think the whole thing of Batman becoming insanely suspicious of meta-humans and the league fighting with god complexes and the chances of becoming Justice Lords could have all been avoided if they simply stayed in the Hall of Justice and didn't move into the watchtower?

What I mean is, could the watchtower be the thing that made the heroes get so detached from humanity? Let's face it, its one thing if you can move at super speed or create glowing green maids to bring you tea, but its another thing if you spend every day looking from high-above everything else on the planet your sworn to protect from the safety of a giant laser cannon equipped satellite.

I think that would give anyone a god complex. Except the doctor of course, because he's epic.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Because new readers don't give a damn about history

I know
I'm one of them"

Good for you. You don't speak for everyone, though.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Personally I don't have any problems with reboots as long as they tell stories worth telling. That has been the New 52's biggest problem. Wonder Woman has been amazing though, which if I remember you didn't like at first, trust me it has gotten a lot better and believe it or not telling its own story, so no crossovers or mentioning Wonder Woman's current romance. 18 issues on and its been consistently really good. I also think the Earth 2 book is interesting though it has its ups and downs."

Yeah, sorry, but I can't get over what they did to the Amazons.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Well, Jordan, that is a nice piece of stock music: It's called Showdown and has been used on the show before. If memory serves me well (and Linkara is free to correct me on that), it was the de-facto theme for the gunslinger story arc so far."

It is not stock music, but I believe it IS called Showdown. Stock music would imply it was free - I did have to purchase it in order to get the rights to use it. It's also not the theme of the Gunslinger arc - the song I used for the Gunslinger's appearance, with the guitar sting, is actually a different piece.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Why is it so wrong to talk about the kid's powers? Are their powers just riping off other superheroes?
Also, am i the only one who thinks tempest costume is kinda bland...?

Also, did batgirl Cassandra kane ever
joined the titans?"

No, actually one of them had a rather unique power of slowing things down. I didn't want to talk about their powers because I didn't like them and didn't want them around and wasn't going to talk about them individually, thus no point in talking about them.

And not really, no. She was drugged and put on Deathstroke's Titans team, but that storyline wasn't exactly great.

DataSnake said...

I thought Johns said his reason for killing off Pantha was because SBP had to kill someone and she had the least screen time.

DataSnake said...

Also, with regards to financing the new tower: did they ever explain why Nightwing didn't just ask Bruce for a loan?

Corwin said...

Your rant at the end, when you say it out loud in so many words, that this comic is now out-of-print, and DC wants it to disappear so much that the only ways to find them are secondhand and bittorrent. They're actively trying to NOT print them.

A publisher, author, and now politician has written that wonderful article where she says "pirates are the only hope that culture has left in this world."

This is why. That emotional investment? That's what makes those comics ours. They're effectively public domain. Oh, not legally, but their owners have effectively abandoned them, and are even trying to rewrite cultural history, to make us forget they existed? THEY'RE ERASING RAVEN? And Cyborg. And Danny Chase. That is unacceptable.

And and and we can't let them do that. Not only for the stories, not only for the characters, not just because we like them, that's just a motivation to archive and preserve and SHARE those particular cultural items. It's our RESPONSIBILITY to do that civil disobedience to copyright.

There is never a need to justify the sharing of culture. Dissemination is preservation. It's been a long-known fact for ever in the field of archival that if you want data to survive, you disseminate it. It's blindingly evident, it's evolution : copies get destroyed, so preserve the data in new copies. Sometimes they even mutate in the copying. But the content of culture must be preserved. Its fossil record is so precious to history.

And there is no limit to what must be preserved. You never know where ideas may come from. Maybe there's a magic-powered thing somewhere in a Titans comic that will actually be invented to change everyone's lives in forty years, and then someone will point it out, and it will attract attention to those old quaint comics then. Where would they be without pirates? Very hard to find.

The free dissemination of ideas, as far and wide as our tools can help, is the best evolutionary advantage we have. Any obstacle against that is a crime against humanity.

SchweitzerMan said...

I really enjoyed this month and think it's probably some of your best work ever.

To be honest, I'd like to see more of this in the future. Yeah, we know this is the place where Bad comics burn and we love it for that but...sometimes a little shake-up in routine is nice.
This really reminded me of your Blue Beetle tribute episode which got me buying the collections featuring Jaime Reyes (That and him being a major character on Young Justice).

I doubt you'll ever go over those again but if you ever did a two week thing for that series, I'd be on board

Jesse said...

I think I learned a thing or two about the Titans here. Now, how much of it I'll actually remember going forward, I'm not sure. The good thing is that March of the Titans will be around for awhile if I ever want to come back and watch again later. I just may do that.

And even though there seems, at least to me, to be a bigger tl;dr factor to the comments this time around, I didn't see many referencing or asking about the Teen Titans animated theme, if that's what you were talking about in the credits. Either you've been moderating a lot of them out or we actually paid attention at the beginning of the series when you said this was about the comic and not any of the related TV shows, which I would think might be kind of nice for a change.

ImmaShapiro said...

''I have to agree that stable characters are not the least bit fun

They are way too predictable, and therefore boring


This is why characters like Deadpool, the Punisher, Spider Jerusalem, and Lobo will always be better than the likes of Superman or Wonder Woman

too bad the average person in america is afraid of the unpredicrtable.''

Its not because they're unpredictable. Some people dislikes those characters because they're assholes with no heroic qualities.

Anonymous said...

"Plus you're citing a different demographic. Transformers, My Little Pony, and etc. are not interested in keeping the same viewers once they've grown up into a certain age bracket. As far as they're concerned, they're interested in hooking new viewers who are now that younger age, thus they reset everything into a new continuity."

And you'll notice that more people are watching cartoons than read comics
And I'm not just talking about kids here.
It may be just my own impression, but it seems like there are more adult cartoon fans than comic fans

Creating a new continuity each decade makes sure that you have a stable influx of new fans

old fans are NOT a lucrative market
here's a video explaining why
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9joAb4XMaUs

Jeremy K. said...

I think, Mr. Lovhaug, that you have the same problem with the DC Reboot and the Titans that I have Star Wars and the various depictions of the Clone Wars. The problem is not so much that a separate continuity exists but that it essentially exists within and conflicts with the old one.

With the likes of the aforementioned Transformers/GI Joe/MLP multiverses, yes, there are multiple continuities, but they don't mess with each other. They don't conflict or rewrite each other. The Transformers Animated universe, for instance, doesn't say things from G1 absolutely did not happen. It simply says that the characters with the same names from each continuity are similar, but their life-experiences are different. It's not branching off from a single point so much as parallel tracks. That is a good way to hand continuities. Reboots generally toe this line.

What DC did is what happened to the Clone Wars in Star Wars: they gave us one version of events, then went back and said it never really happened that way at all; it happened this other way. We had the Tartakovsky Clone Wars lead right into the third prequel movie, and then Lucas went back and rewrote it all by giving us the CGI Clone Wars series, which even contradicted the movie canon. Similarly, DC told us this grand history of the Titans, then went back and said, "Wait, sorry, that's not what really happened." (Incidentally, Marvel also did this to Spiderman via One More Day.) I call this the "large-scale retcon."

Having multiple continuities/universes is actually a lot less confusing than large-scale retcons. You can tell more good stories under vastly different circumstances, or retell the same stories in different ways, but even if the universes do cross over, they don't destroy each other's universal rules. You have consistency within each universe that way, whereas large-scale retcons make things inconsistent.

Anonymous said...

It still baffles me how 'reboots' work in comics. ^^;

'We shall reboot the universe so new readers can start fresh with a new perspective and get to enjoy our wonderful fresh new take on the DC universe!'

That bit is actually pretty interesting and could have been pretty interesting.
But then.....
'Oh, hey, but lets keep the better selling comics storylines intact despite the fact that rebooting major heroes like the justice league, teen titans, superman and wonderwoman would mean alot of the events shouldnt have happend in the parts we ARE keeping...'

Thus despite retconning most of the DC universe (including the other realities of the hokey '52 multiverse' which somehow sprouted two new universes (the two animated ones) when vertigo and wildstorm merged)
Events in
Batman
Green lantern
legion of superheroes
and static shock

putting aside that and the vague message from DC that 'some of the past stories are cannon and totally happend but we wont tell you which ones until we decide to reference them and make them important plot points' which is probably a failsafe to try relying on their history in case these stories start having trouble...
Alot of big events are cannon thanks to keeping the green lantern and batman stuff which makes it very confusing XD

like 'darkest night' which had as its entire plot point alot of these characters coming back to life after being dead....who in the rebooted universe never actually died.
Or brightest day where the entire concept revolved around deadman (whose been retconned) becoming chosen by the life entity and doing alot of screwy things which somehow was supposed to make it impossible for characters to 'Eever come back to life ever again in a comic book and just stay dead~' something which required twelve labors from a buncha other characters whose tasks were insturmental in the entire brightest day arc which is a major plot point in green lantern. (like jade and alan scott who were erased from existance, hawkwoman who was erased from existance and all of the other characters whose backgrounds were retconned so they never did those things) this isnt a minor thing either since the green lantern series keeps referencing it and the whole white lantern thing is a big major plot point for the current series (not to mention new readers have to go back and read the older books to know, much less care about why hal jordan isnt a green lantern and why the guardians booted him or why the guardians even turned baddie)

Same for batman. being one of the oldest series and having virtually no reboots over the years...Despite this whole thing supposedly being a reboot there is nightwing who new readers wont necesarily know anything about, red hood who most people would never know is also a former robin (how does his backstory work in the reboot universe if final crisis and thus his coming back to life never happend? O.o ) two more robins, two batgirls a batwoman, a villian cast of like forty individuals, a complex history with some character called joker (keep in mind from a reboot perspective nobody should have a clue who this guy is. your supposed to treat a reboot as a totally new story with no connection whatsoever to the originals) yet you have thrown around mentions of him crippling batgirl (which happend in the 80s) killing robin#2 (70s) a relationship with harlequin (who being a batman character also has an immunity to reboots)

Anonymous said...


and thats not even going into static shock and legion of superheroes whose histories im not familiar enough with to point out the plot holes (suffice to say, i have no real clue what was going on in static and legion was making alot of references to past events and relationships that went well over my head)

it leaves a tangled mess of plot contrivance that could have been made worlds simpler if they went with an entirly clean slate and if they wanted to keep telling the batman and green lantern stories so badly, they could have just played with their multiverse and said that it was earth 16 or something that said events were happening in and give the reboot its own new versions of batman and green lantern without the history.
Its not like it would be something new either since DC did this before (they had a long running series about events in earth 2 which was based on the golden age folks and the reboot version even continued that trend for a bit)


Stupidly messed up timeline aside, there are some dc titles of the reboot I personally liked. ^^;
OMAC (which shocked me since it was very....90s which i wasnt a big fan of but i loved OMAC despite that)
Frankenstien agent of shade
annnd justice league international

....Which due to bad luck for me, all ended up cancelled leaving me with nothing to really read. ^_^;

Which is tragic since I also cant turn to marvel either which is filled with alot of plot derailings thanks to the yearly crossover events which tend to throw character growth, plot and history out of the window for whatever bigger goal there is at the moment...
and the annoying habit with them to let their fanboy preferences rule what happens regardless of what fans want ^^;
'mary jane sucks~ lets have spiderman be totally in character and retcon their marriage so it never happened because the comic would be much better if it had the status quo of 60 years ago~'

'oh and while were at it lets try to claim that the child we had peter parker kill was the spidergirl character so we can retcon the entire M2 universe out of existance, showing that we are complete morons who didn't even read spidergirl and thus find out that the M2 universe is a split off that occured much earlier wherin mary jane and spideys first baby had been saved~ meaning it happend decades earlier~' (I recommend spider-girl, its an interesting take on a next generation)

still, there are good stories in both places so long as your willing to order older issues and wait around for the next generation of fans to come along and replace all of the stupid retcons the last generation made and replace them with their own stupid retcons despite the events within the stories, no real understanding of the characters and showing little love of the characters anyway...

huh, i seem to have lost track of my original point...

I'll go on to say though that Marvel has done AU's several times (the most recent and notable example is ultimate which dc has been struggling to monkey with their prime universe) though they did other cracks at it like M2 (a take on marvelverse set twenty years later following a new generation heroes after the originals all either died or retired)
and counter earth which was (i think) their first attempt at a full scale reboot

Rhodoferax said...

Due to events in my life, I fell quite a ways behind on Doug's videos. I am so glad I binged on Demo Reel the day before this one came out.

Anonymous said...

Concerning the entire debate here on Continuity v. Reboot (sounds like an amusing court case) there are good reasons for rebooting a series. A good deal of the continuity can involve events that happened decades ago (many of them before the current readers were even born) and really are inaccessible to new readers because of that. This isn't helped at all by the nature of comic books, which often aren't accessible in one easily obtained form (like DVDs of a show for example) and so at best the reader has a brief description on a comic book site. In other words the characters might be fascinating, but a reader is left understanding nothing.

I remember the first comic book I ever read during the early 1990s, an Iron Man comic book. At the time all I knew about it was that he was going to some space station, he fought some machine creature and it ended with him wondering if he'd just made things worse. There were a ton of other details, but I didn't understand any of them because (as I later learned) a lot of the details involved some work Iron Man had done with the government in comics written during the 1980s. It was as a result of that Iron Man comic that I avoided the majority of comic books and stayed with a very few titles.

Basically Linkara, if you want continuity that's great. A lot of the early Star Trek TNG was horrible in part because the writers were forced to work with Rodenberry's 1960s approach to the show, which meant that there wasn't a lot of focus on continuity. However if you want comic books to have continuity and for anybody below a certain age to actually want to read them then the industry needs to make sure that continuity isn't overpowering the current story. If it doesn't then eventually details will be so impossible to follow that there's no way to continue the characters without deciding to reboot everything.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

@Anoymous it's not about continuity. The Reboot was originally gonna ignore it all together, but then screwed up by adding not so subtle hints that it existed the entire time. Unless there is gonna be some crossover event that clashes the Reboot world with the New Earth World, its nothing more than a big mess.

FallingHoshi said...

I feel for you buddy. I know how it feels to have something you care about a lot just get written off like it was no big deal when it really is.

Cletus said...

"Good for you. You don't speak for everyone, though."

Sales say otherwise
(yes, I know, I'm being a jerk)

Anonymous said...

"Chances are, considering most Media:
There's a 90% or 95% chance that the autism displayed by a fictional character is very offensive.

This is because like most self-diagnosed people (or arm-chair psychiatrists as I like to call them), writers will also do quick searches on very outdated information or stereotypical/false information on the internet, rather than doing any actual real/deep research.
Or worse, they have a close friend that has a child with autism and decide to base their entire concept of autism for the character(s) around that because they want to talk about real issues that affect us. They never really talk to the kid to know what it's like for them to get their perspectives, they just go off based around their own observations that they make.

They do not even consider the fact that autism symptoms can differ from person to person (mild, very mild, middle, severe, very severe, etc.).
Secondly: If there's anything I want to beat writers in the head with, it's that autism conditions can sometimes CHANGE with age/time.
I went from severe autism as a child to very mild autism as a teenager (I'm now an adult and probably older than Linkara). It can happen and so does the reverse. While for some, no changes take place. It all depends on how your body and brain reacts/changes to/because of puberty.
The third thing I want to beat writers over the head with is:
We are NOT all unemotional robots. Or that I'm incapable of feeling anything. In many cases, we are actually over-sensitive to things (Bright light hurts, picking up sounds others cannot hear, not liking how certain items/things feel to our fingers/touch, etc.).
And humans are able to communicate in other ways if we do not have the ability to talk.

Why is it that I never see overly talkative kids/adults with autism that want to share everything they know about their interests very excitedly with other people in fiction? I've encountered others in real life like this.
Nope, got to stare at the wall while not saying a word and having a very sad face because I'm in my own made-up world and that's bad according to non-autistics.
Also, non-social, my ass. Awkwardly social? Yeah, but that's because autistic people do want to make friends despite the handicaps they have.
Sometimes autistics are much better at social situations than non-autistics are. That's because non-autistics decided that was such a serious problem for us and made sure we were taught socialization skills in school." - Laughing Heynia

Well, as someone with AS, and yes it is different with each person, I personally don't find it as offensive as others do, becuase I just laugh at how terrible they actually get it, they good thing to come out of it though is that People are starting to notice syntoms of Different forms of Autism. as for my AS allows me to see the big picture, I just happen to have to talk down to people a lot of the time to explain it, and even then it's still hard to explain things to people. [hence why I don;t really talk that much, I talk a lot, and am quite social [ majorty of my friends are female,so no probablem there with the ladies. =D] I don;t thinky ou should speak for ALL OF US LH, becuase I dissagree with soem of your points. it really goes to show who you ask and what they think. Aspers for me witch is a high fuctionning form of Austism spectrum, or AS for short, is different to. for more information Linkara, if you have Any questions on AS, please feel free to shoot me an e-mail at: Dylanb20@ymail.com a lot of people that are exceptionally creative have AS.

Kavinsky said...

You know just thinking about the end to your video there I thought you were going to use the star trek reference there from Relics

just because it's old doesnt mean you should throw it away.

but it does also show you that while star trek 09 had its pluses and negatives they atleast said this was in an alternate universe and that all that stuff that we loved and hated did happen.

just not in this universe that the new one is set and that's kind of the right way to do a reboot, a different universe and a new take while preserving the old.


although I still miss the Enterprise D, ten forward TNG and Kirk's old ship, but I'm just being nolstagic and I miss Kirk's old heroship from TOS, I just wish a minor updated version of that could have been used instead of that proportionally incorrect new one.

but hey new minds and new ideas, be taught mr scott

Doresh said...

@Anonymous:

Ever heard of trade paperbacks? You can get the entire library of Batman comics from the Golden and Silver Age that way.

If anything, blame DC and Marvel for keeping some of the old stories locked.

@Cletus:

"Sales say otherwise"

Because a short-term sales spike is all that matters?

Michael Clayton-Brown said...

Okay...thous story's sucked...or at least a good number did, not the worst but still.

On a lighter note, I believe that some of those comic covers where some of my favorite (Issues 33 - 37 I believe). Loved the art styles they where drawn in and Issue 35's (the cover with Firebird (I think ^^;; could be completely wrong. Probably am) kicking the goon into the air) cover was just simple EPIC, plain and simple...in fact I want a poster of it now.

thorondragon said...

Cetus

that is the mind set of people who hire michael bay for stories. in the end temporary sales only give you very fast money, but not that much money over time.
think of it this way. to this day people want to watch the original trilogy of star wars, and the series is and now can be expanded in different forms of media. some bad, some good, but we managed ot get a hundred and eight cgi animated series out of it all, that is more than most series this day.

however the hype over the transformers movies made by michael bay....... really is dead. people love the transformers prime series far more than anything michael bay ever made. and while the series does use that scrap asthetic that bay used, it is obvious that it was the creators of the transformers who designed it. considering optimus does not have hook blades i think that is a bit obvious.

and look at lord of the rings too. the book series was made decades ago, yet it became one of the staples of fantasy movies ever. basically a old but popular book became a very beloved series of rather risky movies, considering their length and amount of content in them.

the move beloved and admired a franchise the more money you get for the long haul. the more effort put into something the better it becomes. true it might nto exactly mangetize people isntantly like playing to the lowest denominator, which bay does ableit he even sucks at that (plot hole testicle joke), but in the long haul people will collect into it.
look at avatar the last airbender. it became immensely popular and korra, a miniseries, became a full one because they put time and effort into making sure that it was not just a rehash of aang's story.

if dc made more good stories and characters and plot lines, then the sales would be better. cause people will WANT to read them, to experience them.

Jason said...

I have been reading comics for over 30 years. In that time I have come to understand a few things. First a what I find to be a good story doesn't happen because of continuity or a lack of it. It happens when a group of people have a good idea at the right time and in the right place.

Second, nothing is permanent. The books I loved have all been cancelled or "ruined" at one point or another. When this happens, I drop them and look for another. Sometimes I just suffer through the annoying part, hoping it will go back to being good.

I have collected Uncanny X-men from issue 211. In that time I have gone from loving the book, to hating most of it, to loving it and back so many times. But let's take just one example, the evolution of Cyclops. I have seen Cyclops, very slowly mature from a young, idealistic, impotent boy to what is now an angry, desperate man. One that could be argued is a super-villian. He has gone from being the person I have cared least about in the team, to the main reason I read the book. And I know, that Marvel will "ruin" it. He will suddenly realize the error of his ways and be redeemed, or sacrifice himself to save someone, or rebooted away. And he will lose the thing that I love him for. I have seen it happen so many times.

So why do I read comics? Knowing as I do that it will be ruined in the end? Because something else will come along, and it won't be the same, and maybe it is better or not quite as good. But I can watch that grow and change. I can experience this new story. Maybe when this whole Cyclops thing is done I will find that Frenzy is really neat, or that Wolverine is less annoying, or that I really like this wholly different book.

I guess what I am saying is that the anger is fine, the rage justified. However, don't forget that something awesome is just waiting to be told or found. Keep looking and vote with your dollars.

Just another opinion in the end.

Shanethefilmmaker said...

"If anything blame DC and Marvel for keeping some of their old stories locked." If there was one thing they both have in common its doing something stupid like that. Yes many comics now are pandered to a new audience. But said new audience isn't as stupid as DC and Marvel are claiming them to be. When they see a character that's been around before they are born they are curious about how said character came around. DC and Marvel, would make so much money reselling old comics around the same time their new ones came out because new readers would want to know something about a character they fancy. When I was a kid I never knew Spider-man was around since the 60s. I naturally thought the 90s and 60s cartoons were animated around the same time. Growing up I discovered otherwise. Then I realized that YTV (Canada's answer to Fox Kids.) Put the shows back to back in an attempt to get kids interested in learning about Spider-man in tangent with watching and enjoying Spider-man. They did the same thing when they put the Adam West Batman and The DCAU Batman back to back as well. Now, growing up I ask WHY DOES NO ONE ELSE DO THAT ANYMORE!? Not just shows but media in general you could easily get people to not only watch and enjoy your new crap but get them curious about the older stuff and in turn make more money off that.

Anonymous said...

Huh, Kia Asyamia did those covers? The guy has the most interesting career path of any artist in sequential media. Nadesico, Silent Mobius, Steam Detectives...then X-Men, Teen Titans, and Batman: Child of Dreams, which I think you would love honestly due to its themes and the final fight which I don't want to spoil for you.

What I was thinking of before is that there's obviously an interest in these characters. But the interest seems to be in every medium except comic books. Even the tie-in to that Injustice video game seems to be a peripheral, where instead of getting game fans to read comics, it's the opposite. Which reminds me, I would suggest the Injustice tie-ins for you to to review if only because they're supposed to be awful.

Doresh said...

@Shanethefilmmaker:

For all their talk about "attracting new readers", they sure don't know HOW to do it.

It would already be helpful if they borrowed a little from manga. My favorite example would be One Piece: Each and every volume has two pages (a Western comic book could to the same in one) dedicated to summarize the events so far and also always lists the currently important factions and their members. It helps break the ice for new readers.

Heck, why not do something that's way easier to reboot EVERYTHING: Create long, single-volume stories (so new readers instantly have a complete story) set outside of the main continuity that basically acts as an introduction to the character.

They shouldn't tell the entire history, but they should teach people enough so they won't be totally confused if they pick up something from the main line.

Rhodoferax said...

>It would already be helpful if they borrowed a little from manga. My favorite example would be One Piece: Each and every volume has two pages (a Western comic book could to the same in one) dedicated to summarize the events so far and also always lists the currently important factions and their members. It helps break the ice for new readers.

Western != American. Please don't confuse the two; that's a pet peeve of mine.

What you describe is actually common practice in British comics. The inside cover of 2000 AD and, I believe, Phoenix is devoted to summarising and explaining the plots of the five or so comics in each issue. CLiNT does things a bit differently - it gives each comic a full summary page before the action starts.

In fact, even the UK reprints of Marvel and DC series use the inside cover to explain what's going on for new readers. This isn't always satisfying (like saying to simply read The Avengers to find out what Daken did since the previous issue of Wolverine), but it means new readers can start reading at any point and not be hopelessly lost.

I'm actually surprised they don't do that in American comics.

Doresh said...

@Rhodoferax:

Oh, I think I need to take a closer look at British comics O_O

Alex Stritar said...

Roomies!/It's Walky! The shift from college comedy to action sci-fi comedy with a near total shift in character focus seemed to go over well in that case.

Aldo512 said...

@Alex Stritar:

Technically, It's Walky is more of a sequel to Roomies then anything else, so I don't think that qualifies.

Mekkanos said...

I have to say that I really agree with your speech at the end about how a long continuity is not a bad thing, since it can help build great stories from things that were previously established. Continuity acting as a barrier to enjoying a story is more a sign of bad writing than it is of too much continuity. Good writers can build off of previous continuity while bringing new readers up to speed on what's happening. If the readers want to know more, they can be directed to the older stories but it should never be required to do extra reading to understand what's happening in an issue. I think the constant reboots seem to be a sign that the higher-ups at Marvel and DC just don't see how continuity can help build stories rather than block them.

I know you don't read the Archie Sonic the Hedgehog comic so I feel I should relate how that series deals with continuity. Despite certain mistakes and...mishandlings of the series over time, the series has never had the reset button pressed. The closest thing was the Sonic: Genesis arc, which was explicitly a temporary reset or the "One Year Later" style jump where Sonic was stuck in space for a year (long story) and came back to find things had changed since he was gone. Keep in mind that the series is nearing 250 issues and that's not even counting the spin-off titles like Knuckles the Echidna and Sonic Universe or the special series like Sonic Quest. Sure, there are short-term retcons and changes in the status quo, since those are inevitable as different writers come about, but no one has ever said "Everything before this point is now invalid".

Everything happened, for good or for ill (and trust me, the book has been through some dark times), and the current writer is building off of that by reintroducing older characters in both minor and major roles. You don't need to know about their original stories to get who these characters are, since they are generally pretty well reintroduced. People can say what they will about the stories themselves (I personally enjoy them, though I know there are some who don't like them as much) but the fact that the Sonic comic is still going strong despite having such a long history shows that a comic series can work well without throwing away its continuity. Heck, the Sonic Universe series is mainly intended to build on that continuity more by giving arcs to many side characters.

I can see now that the Titans showed this just as well, but not even that could save it from having its history wiped away. I'm sorry that DC decided to do that to them and hope they'll reconsider in the future. Hopefully, they won't wait until another reboot to do so.

Anonymous said...

I've only recently finished watching Teen Titans on YouTube and I think I've found the reason why Identity Crisis' writer thought Dr. Light was always goofy. It was because he only watched the show, and assumed that he was like that in the comics.

Then again, I'm only speculating here.

Dark Patrician said...

I seem to be in the habit of posting my thoughts far after you post the episode, sorry about that, and my stream of consciousness posting.

Is there footage of the Nostalgia Critic's funeral or log entries from the Linkara/Chick conflicts, these sound like they would make for great videos.

Did you open the window blinds or something before starting the review? The room's got a blueish glow on the right that's not in the Previously On segment.

Read? That's too much work.

Huh, so the Titans obey the 3 month rule of Pro-Wrestling...wherein anything that happened 3 months ago doesn't matter, until it does.

Bones makes David Xanatos look like a moron with his epic planning.

Maybe Nightwing didn't want them to rebuild the Tower because they all collectively sucked at construction, "And so I reveal the rebuilt Titans Tower!" Pulls off curtain.

"It's a 'Q'."

"Are we the 'Qu-itans' now?"

Or else, maybe Nightwing doesn't want anybody else to build the Tower because Batman's never let anybody rebuild the Batcave.

Are we sure Starfire's tinfoil hat isn't the latest Tameranian fashion?

Has anybody at DC ever given a specific reason why they're getting rid of the past of the Teen Titans?

And what the hell is up with the half-Kyle Rayner, half-girl I don't recognize on the cover?

I just figured you didn't use the theme song because in a previous episode when you didn't use the expected material you said,"I like screwing with people's perceptions."

Can't wait for tomorrow's/today's episode and what you do for April 1st. Just a guess, and if I'm write you can just wait to approve until after you post it, no AT4W and instead the next episode of History of Power Rangers. My B-thought is the dramatic return of...BEAR!

le-messor said...

I know I've said this before, but as a reader of Alpha Flight, I feel your pain.
I love the original run, but what happened to the title later... shudder.

I also hate it when the company brings out a collection of strangers, slaps the name of one of my favourite teams on it (AF; New Warriors, Young Justice), and not only they, but other fans, too, can't see why I don't automatically give the same love and loyalty to this bunch of strangers as I did the original team. (Or the original team so badly mangled they might as well be strangers!)

Also, when I started collecting the first issues of AF, the series was in the seventies. I built up the back issues, bought all their appearances, and bought huge runs of X-Men (the good issues, from before #211 - sorry, Jason, I'm not that fond of the series after about that time) because of it. I learned Marvel continuity.

Lewis - when Argent walks away from Epsilon's death, saying 'I got my wish', I've always seen that as a good and keen, and kind of sad character moment. I've read it as her trying to *convince herself* that she's not upset about what she's wished for.
Try reading it that way, and see what you think.

~ Mik

Anonymous said...

@Mekkanos
While archies sonic the hedgehog is loaded with awesome in keeping its continuity you cannot overlook some of the baffling things they do that abuses past continuity ^^;

like....taking a page from wonder woman and killing off all the echidnas except knuckles because 'hey, knuckles doesnt have his own comic book anymore and he has all these side characters who just take up space~'

or...'we have a whole slew of stories revolving around this magic sword of acorn, the royal liniage of acorn and sallys connection to the sword but lets throw out that plot by destroying the sword and erasing the monarchy because we have to many stories going on'

oh, oh, oh, or 'yay~ im in charge and im calling the shots~ now lets start by getting rid of this boring eggman character and replace him with my totally awesome original mary sue super villian who instantly takes over and has a tragic backstory of being a marvel inspired human mutant with the power to control technology with her will power~'

and don't get me started with the whole 'mammoth mogul (mammoth with a backstory similar to DC comics vandal savage) being established as being responsible for every single special ability in the sonic universe (from sonics super speed to mightys walking brickness to tails flying ability) and that this somehow allows him to control them and had been planning that for decades....despite the bloody fact that they have defeated and put a stop to his plans to become an all powerful god four times so far -_-

I dearly love sonic comics and they were what first got me into comics at all but some of the decisions made are REALLLY painful and i wouldnt lose much sleep if they were retconned ^^;

Especially since a large part of these changes seems to stem from 'the comics diverged to much from the games so lets bring it back on track' which just laughs in the face of the continuity and such in a way that i would have been happier if they just rebooted it entirly (or took the other route they did when they started doing a comic based on sonic x)

Though i suppose i shouldnt be overly negative on the comic since it has produced some really intense stories like the time sonic was tried for the murder of sally or the introduction of the dark legion

Anonymous said...

I actually was expecting Linkara to one day act suprise when he found out the Nostalgia Critic returned ,but I still found that previously on sgement funny. Also let's address the dead elephant in the room ,by pointing out that Linkara has an insane ghoul living in his house (but I made the assumption based off of that joke from the Simpsons Comic review) that shows up every October (for some reason, I guess "it's magic, you don't have to explain it)and in the case of 2013 (LOL how ironic) somehwere in summer (again, we don't really know why). I just realize Longbox of the Damned is kind of confusing when you really think about it. But the point is,the Critic isn't the only one to come back from the grave

Luis Angulo said...

Speaking as someone new to comics, I'd like to say that comics with a long established continuity ARE difficult to get into for people who didn't track them from the start. Not only are plots frequently strange, confusing and referencing stuff you missed, it's hard to understand or even care about characters you've just "met".

However, if the comic is good and piques my interest, I'll try to track down the older comics. And frankly, I'd rather track down the copy of the older stuff in a good comic than have one that basically restarts every decade. How the hell is more of the good stuff a bad thing? If you're picking up a comic book to read, then clearly you have time to read, and it's only a chore if the story itself is bad or filled with padding.

I agree that "Every comic is someone's first", but "lets make every single issue a #1" is a terrible way to respond to that. And periodic reboots are basically doing that, on a larger scale. They discourage readers getting invested in the characters or the stories themselves and prevent building a rich mythos.

Personally I think a good way to have the best of both worlds is systems theory: Make every story arc able to function on its own as a discrete unit, and also to work as part of a larger narrative. That way the new readers can enjoy a story without having to archive binge and the old ones can still feel it is THEIR story.

Anonymous said...

I know this comes late, but I may point towards a series that actually replaces it's main cast on a regular basis, and is still rather popular

The mange series JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, which started in 1986 and is still ongoing, regularly replaces it's main characters with each story-arc
A "complete party-kill" is not unusual for this series, and main characters who do survive their arc usually end-up demoted to supporting cast, if they re-appear at all, by the time the next story-arc starts
(not to mention the series getting a re-boot in 2001, thus not only replacing the main cast, but the timeline itself)

Ming said...

That is a funny previously on segment -- especially in light of the Nostalgia Critic's recent return.

Looking at the remaining issues, I blame Helfer for the downfall of The Titans. What was he thinking when he decided to put the DEO kids as supporting characters? Did he really think new readers were going to read the comics just to see Titans babysit kids other than Lian? Their presence alone was the definitive jump the shark moment for the comic; hell, as bad as oh say Danny Chase was at times, he was more tolerable than the DEO kids.

Looking back, I find it tragic that DC chose to completely throw out all of the Titans history in favor of the New 52 reboot. I keep expecting someone in DC to decide to re-reboot the DCU back to pre-Flashpoint . . . or at the very least create a separate universe where the pre-Flashpoint continuity still exists. Alas, DC is determined to stick to their New 52 reboot . . . and the characters that have been benched -- I fear what will happen if they decide to re-introduce Wally West or Donna Troy . . .

Anyway, great retrospective on the Titans. I'll eagerly count down the days until you get around to do Titans/Young Justice Graduation Day.

John "Juce" Bruce said...

Hey, I just noticed! You once said the only manga you read was Steam Detectives. Steam Detectives is by Kia Asamiya... who also did several covers for this run of The Titans. Coincidence, or part of your origin story?

Anonymous said...

I'm also autistic, and I couldn't have said or better :)

Greg said...

Will you review the T.V show Teen Titans? Not Teen Titans Go.Teen Titans was always action first and comedy second. If not the show try there movie Teen Titans in Tokyo. These are just suggestions. Just never do Teen Titans go.

greg said...

Sorry I meant teen titans trouble in Tokyo.

Robert Woldt said...

WHO EDITS THE EDITORS??? o_o