No, I don't care if they're not calling it a reboot. You can call it what you want, but firing someone and laying them off still mean the same thing: that someone doesn't have a job anymore, and a reboot and a revitalizing just mean that history's getting swept under the rug in favor of something that nobody asked for.
Look, people are asking me about my thoughts on this and honestly it's too early to give any thoughts about this nonsense. I'm depressed about it, not only because ONLY LAST MONTH I wrote up a recommendations list for people and now half of it is completely worthless because those ongoing series I recommended will be ending. I hate that Birds of Prey is being relaunched (AGAIN) without Gail Simone. I'm upset that she's working on a character, Firestorm, who I have zero interest in. I'm upset that it's likely that Lois Lane and Clark Kent will probably no longer be together, since they keep hyping up that these are younger versions of these characters. I'm upset that Batgirl is very likely going to be Barbara Gordon again, undoing 20+ years of character development of her as Oracle. I'm upset that Dick Grayson probably won't be Batman anymore and that Batman, Inc. will probably be ending, too, since I loved the concept and the story itself was awesome to me. I'm upset because Jim Lee is designing new costumes for everybody and frankly Lee, while a great artist, is not exactly the guy I go to for new designs because they just frankly don't look all that good. I'm upset because they won't just give a damn straight answer about whether this is a full reboot from scratch, everybody new, etc., etc., or if this is a continuation of everything that has come before.
And I guess what I'm most ticked off about is that this whole thing is, yet again, being done to capture this elusive "new reader" that they always want to get, despite them pulling this crap at least twice before now and FAILING AT IT.
When I was 12 or 13 years old, I had read some Nightwing comics my brother had because he was a fan of Nightwing from the Batman animated series. In one issue, he had a flashback to when he was a member of a team called the Teen Titans. I had never heard of this team before, but it intrigued me and made me want to learn more. When I was at a comic book store, looking for material to read on a trip up to a camp up in the woods for a four-day retreat made by my school, I saw "JLA/Titans: The Technis Imperative." Since I wanted to know more about the Titans, I picked that up and that's how I started regularly reading comics. The book has tons and tons of heroes I had never heard of before and it was glorious because it made me want to learn more about them, to learn more about a history I had never thought existed.
THAT is the new reader you want to get, DC. You don't get new readers by pretending that nothing ever happened before. You get new readers by telling good stories and making them want to know more about the history. You EMBRACE your history, use it as the platform to tell good stories. You have it even easier these days with the internet and its bottomless pit of information about characters and storylines that anyone can look up and read more about.
I am banging my head against my desk that I have to keep reminding the industry about this: tell good stories and the readers will come. They will come through word of mouth, they will come because you have dedicated readers who invest their time and money into these characters. Does it work for every book? No, because opinions vary on it, but you know damn well that a good book is going to last a hell of a lot longer than a bad one.
So, people, you want my thoughts about the upcoming DC reboot? I'm upset about it. Maybe it'll all work out for the best - maybe I'm overreacting. It happens. But right now? I'm upset and I am going to continue to be upset about it because it feels like I've invested money and time in something for over ten years and it was for nothing.
And if you don't know what I'm talking about, just read HERE or google it.
Also, DC announced they would also release digital comics of those releases on the same day from now on. That's fantastic and I love it, howevere, there's a quote from the West Wing that I like to use at a time like this:
"Why is it for every good thing you do around here, we have to endure three screw-ups?"
Discuss, debate, argue, criticize me, support me, do what you like in the comments, but keep it civil.
Thursday, June 2, 2011
The DCU Reboot
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241 comments:
1 – 200 of 241 Newer› Newest»I agree with you 100% Linkara.... I don't think anyone else could have said it better.
I hate that Birds of Prey is being relaunched (AGAIN) without Gail Simone.
And there goes any interest I might have had in DC.
it's likely that Lois Lane and Clark Kent will probably no longer be together
...did DC learn nothing from Joe Quesada?
Seriously, when decisions like this piss off NON-COMICS FANS such as myself...
I just can't.
Thank you, Linkara. This post meant the world to me.
The DCU Reboot really upset me as well, but it was hard for me to convey exactly how I felt. I stand by every word you just said, and simply could not agree more.
I honestly hope that the Reboot works out for the best, but hoping may simply not be enough. I think DC put all their eggs in one basket, and I think it will come back to bite them.
I've often said that it's not continuity that's a barrier to new readers, it's the perception of continuity as a barrier that keeps them away. So a complete reboot seems unnecessary to me.
That said, right now we don't know a lot. I suspect this will be a more soft reboot in the vein of Crisis on Infinite Earths, with some things changing but more or less everything else remaining the same. But like I said, we don't know a lot, so I could be wrong.
The main thing that upsets me about this news is how Brian Clevinger's run on Firestorm was canceled. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/05/31/flashpast-brian-clevinger-dropped-from-firestorm-before-you-even-knew-he-was-on-it/
What I find confusing is that Bob Wayne (VP of Sales) came out and said the reboot isn't a reboot after all the other news sources said it's a reboot.
I'm trying to remain optimistic about this whole thing, but I don't like the idea of seeing my favorite comic book writer get a series canceled or the idea of things like The Killing Joke or The Long Halloween becoming meaningless.
Honestly, I think you hit the nail right on the head, Linkara.
I accept the fact that DC wants to bring in new readers because they "already have our money" as someone once said, but that's no excuse to discount the loyal fans entirely by "rebooting" the entire franchise. Like you so eloquently put it, it's like sweeping an entire generation of stories under the rug. It's also why I have a problem with the "reboot" revolution that has taken both comic books and movies by storm. It's absolutely out of control.
I'm not one of those people who likes change, but I can admit that a little change can be a good thing but this? This is just heinous. It's downright disrespectful to all the writers and artists who bled to get these comics out to us, whether they liked it or not.
And y'know what? The reboot annoys me on a personal level because I like discovering comic books that are already in full swing and slowly gathering up the issues myself. Matter of fact, one of my all time favorite comic book storylines is The Amazing Spider-Man arc written by J. Michael Straczynski and drawn by John Romita because one day I was browsing in a Barnes and Noble and thought the comics were amazing so I made a goal last year to collect all of the ones that Straczynski and Romita did together and guess what? It was *fun*. It was like a miniature monthly award. Each month I'd order a new one and read it and that's just how I get comics. I find something, research it, buy it, read it, and recommend it.
I think the other irritating thing about this reboot is that it's still the same problem that they refuse to wrap their heads around: even if you start over, people are still going to come into comics when they have already been ongoing. There is no definitive way to get every comic book reader to start from the beginning every time. It's futile and it's a waste of time.
But again, you said all of it better than I ever could. Might as well just enjoy the comics we have while they last. Maybe if enough fans raise hell about it, they'll reconsider or at least adjust the terms of this reboot. God help us all.
Thanks for your post, it's fantastic.
I think you're drastically overestimating the amount of people who find a long-term continuity very interesting. Do you really expect the general audience have to look up on the internet for long-ago-published stories? Do you think they WANT to do that?
Johns hasn't done well by bringing back old villains; he's done well by making new villains that most of the audience didn't know about.
You speak of 'investing' time that now 'isn't worth it'. Does this change somehow undo the enjoyment you've had for the past ten years? Be honest with your words; you're upset that the ten years of knowledge you have is suddenly outdated and irrelevant. You're at the starting point, just like the rest of us.
You're upset that Dick Grayson isn't going to be Batman? Bruce Wayne is Batman. You've been reading comics long enough to understand that ANY deviation from that, and those like it, will be temporary. Kyle Rayner isn't Earth's Green Lantern. Hal Jordan is. Same thing.
Ruined Forever. It started with Comics, didn't it?
I'm not as upset as you are Linkara over this whole reboot thing, and I do agree it is a reboot, but I'm also an easy to please optimist. I am bothered by Gail no longer having BoP (I just got a friend of mine into BoP based on her writing alone), Clark and Lois being split up REALLY pisses me off, and Barbara being Batgirl again also bugs me for the same reasons you listed. But with all of that said I am optimistic, and hopeful that this will all work out for the best. This could be a grand new step in the right direction for DC or the beginning of the bullet train to hell. I hope it's not the latter.
As a fellow DC man I hear ya buddy on being upset over this move. I'm upset about it to, though I am also optimistic and hope it all works out for the best. I think you're right when you say this is not exactly the right way to get new readers, good stories and characters are, but for good or ill this is going to happen, so I hope it works out.
But if it fails I suggest someone found a DC reboot Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome support group so we can all help each other get through it.
Trust me, I understand your frustrations.
Two quick things...
Simone is still going to write Birds of Prey and she is NOT writing Firestorm. One of her friends is and she read an advance copy and was excited about it.
But back to my point, I understand your frustrations. I am a new reader of comic books. I got into them a year ago by reading "52" on your recommendation. Since then, I have fallen in love with many, MANY characters and titles. And now I have to put up with the idea that many of them might get destroyed.
But then a small voice in the back of my head tells me that I'm probably overreacting. Hear me out.
The architect of the new DCU is Geoff Johns. He probably won't change much of the Green Lantern mythos because he's spent years developing it.
Also, I think that both Batmen are safe. Grant Morrison was originally hired to do 24 issues of Batman Inc. That's 18 more issues out of him. Frankly, I don't think that Johns would screw his friend over by forcing him to retcon everything mid-series.
I think that Dickbats and Damian are safe because...well....Batman and Robin have been selling REALLY WELL.
I think that Babs will stay Oracle because Simone has been talking about writing future issues of BoP on her twitter. If she does go, I think that Red Robin might take up the Oracle mantle, being the great detective that he is.
My guess is that either Steph will stay Batgirl or Cassandra Cain will come back as Batgirl. Although this doesn't explain the Nightwing relaunch. Personally, I'm hoping for Cass to become the next Nightwing.
But these are all speculations.
Linkara, I respect you and what you do for the comics industry. But I think that everyone, yourself and myself included, need to take a deep breath and realize that we are probably overreacting. Yes, these are characters that we love. Yes, changes are coming. Does that have to be a bad thing? No. I think that the best thing to EVER happen to Superman was his character getting rebooted in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
But again, I understand the frustration. I know the feeling. All we can do is hold our breaths and hope.
So what makes you more upset? This or One More Day? j/k
See it's when DC pulls stunts like this that remind me why I stick to Marvel. Even though Marvel has done some equally stupid things but I've already beaten that dead horse at least three times today so I won't go into it any further.
I agree with you so much. The whole thing feels like a shoddy way to attract attention, and whether it works or not, the sacrifice of all DC continuity at the altar of this ethereal concept of new readers is just not worth it. I desperately hope that I'm wrong and that this is going to turn out well, but I think this is a screwup.
Its actually worse than you think. I'm good friends with the owner of a major comic book chain (I'm not saying who cause I don't want to get him into trouble but trust me, no matter where you live, you have heard of his store) and he told me yesterday that a couple weeks ago Geoff Johns and Dan Didio called him to let him know about all this. They stressed that neither of them actually wanted this reboot done in this way. Didio has been wanting to do a reboot for a while, yes, but he wanted to build up to it better over the next couple of years. And neither he nor Johns wanted to do such things like making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again.
Almost everything coming out of this reboot? It comes directly from the corporate management of Warner Brothers. Yeah, so basically DC is now Marvel in the 90s. Morrison, Johns, Didio, all of them spent months arguing against this course of action. To no avail. They were told in no uncertain terms that not only was this going to happen but that if DC didn't start beating Marvel regularly in monthly sales over the next year, everyone, and I mean everyone, was going to be fired. The management at WB? They've finally woken up to the fact that they own DC and are through playing around. They are ready to shutter the whole damn comics arm of the company if it comes to that, though that is a last resort option. Its not like they need it after all. Its the characters and the merchandising that is valuable, not the comics they star in. They could easily just cancel everything and fall back on a few Earth One style graphic novels staring the big names every few months and be fine. They have over sixty years of stories to draw from after all.
The reason everything is so vague at the moment? Cause the people at DC know what kind of live grenade they have on their hands and they are trying every trick in the book to not set it off. They know this has the potential to set off a storm of geek rage that would make One More Day and everything surrounding it look like a mild, gentlemanly disagreement. Funny that we finally really do have a event that really is going to change everything, in the real world at least. Funny in the way that makes me not want to laugh at all that is. I know, I know, who am I, just some random guy on the internet typing all this away. But I swear to god to the trustfulness of all this, hard as it may be to believe. Creative is no longer in control at DC and god only knows how that is going to play out.
I feel you. DC publishes 95% of the comics I read, and I'm very nervous and upset, for many of the same reasons you are. I want to believe it's all going to be for the best, but as you said, this seems to be entirely for the purpose attracting new customers, and that makes me very apprehensive.
To be fair, there could be many good things that come from a reboot. I don't think anyone would say that there isn't ANYTHING about the current DCU that they wouldn't like to see changed.
I agree with you Linkara, it upsets me too. I just recently started reading the new Batman and Robin that Grant Morrison started, and I really like it. I like the idea of Dick Grayson being Batman and I really enjoy the new Robin, Damian Wayne. It's a shame that DC is just going to throw away years of history, stories, characters, etc. all just to grab new readers. This reboot will lose dedicated readers, readers that have stuck with these characters and stories for years. But it can't be all for nothing, as the past characters and stories brought joy and excitement to us, sure rebooting the entire universe at this point seems bad, but reading the past comics wasn't all for nothing as we did gain entertainment out of them. We'll just have to see how this reboot goes and whether it was worth it to DC.
OK this is my first post on this site so I'm going to make this as good as i can. Now i haven't read any comics since i lost all my old ones back in 1997 but with this reboot...i already have bad feelings about it.
Now reboots are okay to a point. If you are taking the same character, same continuity but retell it in the new times and not change anything or change a few things nothing major then its okay. How ever if your going to take the characters and throw continuity out the window and put what ever u want then its not the same. If would be a new universe if you will.
I understand they are trying to get new readers and make sales but at the same time they forget about the buyers who grew up with theses story's and are used to a certain way. It would be like if you take Green Lantern and instead of change the time line where Hal wasn't the first lantern and it was a cave man it would throw everything off.
I never liked reboots to be honest. Not in comics or video games. That's my thoughts on it anyway.
Truth be told, I've been out of the whole DC/Marvel thing since Bruce took back the Batman title after recovering from Bane breaking his back. I do try to keep tabs, in the general sense, about what's going on in both universes, though. With that said, while I don't have any particularly strong feelings one way or the other, I also don't think it's a good idea to ignore your roots.
Fiery Little One
"Simone is still going to write Birds of Prey and she is NOT writing Firestorm. One of her friends is and she read an advance copy and was excited about it."
It was announced on DC's own blog. Her and Ethan Van Sciver are doing Firestorm.
The ting that I find strange about this "reboot" is that from what I have heard so far they arent actually getting rid of all continuity. For example the events of Blackest Night will still have taken place in this new DCU, and we know that Guy Gardner is still somehow a Lantern. That is the main reason I have some hope in this revitalazation of the DCU, not everything will be swept under the rug, heck there is going to be a JLI ongoing going on at the same time as a JLA ongoing.
But my biggest fear is how this is going to affect the Batman family. I love where it is right now, and I would HATE to lose Daimen as Robin, and Stephanie as Batgirl! Right now this is very confusing to us fans, but hopefully everything will be cleared up soon.
"tell good stories and the readers will come. They will come through word of mouth, they will come because you have dedicated readers who invest their time and money into these characters. Does it work for every book? No, because opinions vary on it, but you know damn well that a good book is going to last a hell of a lot longer than a bad one."
That is a faulty concept as many books which are good don't get the support despite the word of mouth from people, websites, and shop owners.(R.E.B.E.L.S., The Shield, Shadowpact, Blue Beetle, just to name a few.)
And there is still a lot of assumptions going around as they are releasing information as the days and weeks go by, it is a marketing thing. Yes annoying, but they have your attention and aren't going to let it up until it is closer to the books debut.
But, look I got into comics thanks to my brother buying Superman books, I understand the feeling coming from a lot of this but you know what change isn't bad. Some one once said, "Comics fans want companies to preserve a part of their childhood." Which is true but you know what else is true.
"...Comic creators can't comply with these fans' wishes, not with out reprinting the same story month after month, year after year, decade after decade...which would eventually bore even the most dedicated devotee and cause him to look for amusement elsewhere. If new stories are written, the meme-archetype will evolve, for all the reasons already cited. And somebody will be outraged." - Dennis O'Neil.
Well then, I guess that I can eat a healthy helping of crow. Sorry, buddy.
For the record, the same story the broke the news about Gail Simmone was the same story that said James Robinson was writing Hawkman, which was proven to not be the case, so take that with a grain of salt for the time being man.
There is A LOT of rumors flying around at the moment, so I wouldn't believe anything that doesn't come straight from the horses mouth.
As much as I wish "tell good stories and reader will come" was true, its just not. How many people here have read Captain Britain and MI 13? Yeah, I doubt we'll get man hands raised to that one.
Finally, is Clark and Lois aren't together when all this hits the fan, I almost guarantee them getting back together will be the crux of Grant Morrison's rumored run.
tl;dr, don't panic, you'll find books you like, good stories will be told, and it's probably not even as big a deal as we're all making it out to be.
Agh. I will try to remain cautiously optimistic and hope that this doesn't turn into DC's equivalent to One More Day, only on EVERYONE.
I love good series as much as any but with mainstream companies whenever theres a good series by them its cancelled so its not because a good series tells good stories its rather if it can hook large audience or if the editors put more effort in promotional advertisement.
Thats one thing that the comic book industry needs to realize... more than anything, its not lack of accessability keeping people away, it's short-term gain stuff like this.
When I was growing up in the early 2000's I loved comic books, but what was the thing that killed the industry for me? Crap like the Energy Superman of the late 90's, Lex Luthor getting elected President, and Spiderman selling his soul to the Devil.
You want the comic industry to get more readers, they need to realize that crap like that, and this, is waht scares them away, with some of the older fans too.
Linkara, I have been a viewer and reader on your blog for the past couple years, and I have come to respect your opinion on comics and comic-related material. While sometimes I may not necessarily agree with your opinions, I do respect them as a fellow nerd and internet video producer. This is actually the first I've heard of the DC reboot, but I had a feeling that it was inevitable. While I had problems with DC in the past year or so, I did like what was going on with the Batman stuff. Batman is my favorite hero and has been ever since I was a little kid. Unlike a lot of people our age, I was introduced to him via the Adam West show. Incidentally, many of my favorite television or movie franchises began in the 60s--Batman, Star Trek, Doctor Who, and so on, which I saw the originals (or at least some of the older shows) before the more modern series. One of the first movies I remember as a child was Tim Burton's Batman. While I never got heavy into comic book reading, I did follow Batman's story through the years either by books or later by the internet. In the past couple years, I have been reading and watching your blog for information concerning comics, and have started my own blog (using blogger) based on influence and inspiration from you. The long and short of it is, as I said, I have come to respect you and your opinions. Oops, I'm starting to ramble and repeat myself.
I was hesitant to pick up comics after what I had seen of Countdown and Final Crisis. I did pick up Tiny Titans (I believe that is the title) and found it charmingly funny--reminding me of cartoons like Muppet Babies and Rugrats, but with the Titans. Also an aside, I love the Teen Titans animated cartoon. Along with reading a few issues of Tiny Titans, I checked out Red Robin, Batman, and Batwoman. While I didn't quite know what was going on, I liked them. Dick Grayson (no longer age 12) was now Batman! At first I was like, "No Way! Bruce is the only Batman!" I quickly realized that it was a logical progression to have Dick take up the cowl; and Tim Drake as Red Robin intrigued me! There was a Batwoman as well! "OMG! Maybe there's hope for DC!" I thought...But seriously they are talking about a reboot? What the hell, man! In my mind I figured that Bruce would finally return as Batman, but that he'd be in more of a leadership role--especially with Batman Inc, and that Dick would be one of many Batmen. The only thing is that I never thought that Batman would ever become a legacy character, and in all honesty, I don't want him to be; however, I don't believe that Dick, Tim, and the other characters should get shafted for 20+ years of development. In my mind, comics should change with the times to some degree, but also be timeless. It's a paradox and boils down to being afraid of change but at the same time craving something new and interesting.
I agree with you on your post. If DC wants knew readers, this is NOT the way to go about it. As I have explained, the post Final Crisis Batman stuff was regaining my interest, but if they are going to just toss this stuff out of the window, I may lose it again. However, we need to wait and see just what will happen, and I am glad to be with you along the journey, Linkara. Laughing and crying the whole way.
I just go into DC comics with Greg Rucka's run on Wonder Woman. Then started reading Power Girl, Zatanna, 52 and Gotham central. The reboot takes away everything I love. i just hope they tell good stories.
First time commenter. Anyway, I completely agree with everything you said. I only recently got into comics (partly because of Atop the Fourth Wall btw,)and it certainly wasn't for any pointless reboot.
I haven't read much DC comics yet so I'm not really upset about it, but if they're going to reboot their entire universe like (again) then it doesn't really make me want to start.
Anyway, AT4W is awesome, keep up the good work.
Nicieza's Cable and Deadpool got me into all of modern comics. I was into superheroes as a kid (I watched all the good cartoons. X-Men, Spider-Man, Batman, ect) but didn't get into actual comics till I was in high school. And it wasn't a reboot that made me want to read things as a new reader. I saw interesting characters and events that made me want to see how they affected the rest of Marvel. Then that got me looking into how DC was doing and oops now I read all comics all the time.
I don't see why they couldn't pull a Marvel and make a separate universe for the 'new readers' like Ultimate. (Which was very hit or miss but it was still a good idea) They had potential with the Earth One stuff they were starting and they're supposed to be making more? Why not keep going with that? A whole new universe where they could do whatever there wanted without stepping all over the massive amounts of history.
Actually, I find this pretty insulting actually that DC thinks a new reader like I once was is too lazy to look into their history. That or they're just so insecure of their own comics that they think the can only keep the new readers by pissing off all their old ones. Either way I'll just be waiting for this to be retconned while singing Kirby Krackle's 'Another New Crisis'
Wow, it's like One More Day on a universal scale! It's debateble if it's with less Satan.
I certainly don't blame you for getting upset. I haven't even been reading DC for a while (due to, er, paycheck reasons) and even then I'm getting a little concerned about the whole thing. The vagueness is certainly not making it easier.
My big worry is that these "younger" versions of "the characters" is going to mean getting rid of all the things I like about the universe. I only got into comics thanks to the original "Young Justice," and my entire understanding of the universe branches off of those characters. Given that everybody in the DC office seems to be stuck back in the happy days of Barry Allen and Hal Jordon, that could mean those kids I love are going to lose their entire lives of continuity.
I really hope that's not the case. But it's still got me concerned, along with everything that you said. I wish they'd at least give us some specifics so we don't have horrible What Ifs running around in our skulls. :/
After hearing the start of you last Ultimatum review and hearing the news of this, I immediately thought, "I bet Linkara is as upset as I am!"
I've been reading comics for 17+ years?! Now they're going to kill off or just stop - whatever they feel like doing - all my favorite characters!
I'm a Teen Titans fan, too, but I mainly followed the latest team back when they were Young Justice. I mean, Tim Drake is my favorite Robin. I'll be happy if Robin exists even if it is Dick, but will I live long enough to see Tim be Robin again if ever? Stephanie as Batgirl I loved! I was ballistic that she was supposedly killed and ecstatic when she wasn't. Also dealing with the deaths of Superboy & Kid Flash in the past few years, too, and NOW they want to take them all away AGAIN?!
Congrats on your new readers DC! You may lose some of your long-term fans!
Thank you for posting this Linkara and thanks to the others who posted. It's nice to know I'm not alone in this.
I definitely understand where you're coming from because its similar to how I got interested in your reviews and in comics. One of the first episodes I watched was when one of your story arcs was happening and I got interested and wanted to find out more and found a huge interest in comics along the way.
"When I was growing up in the early 2000's I loved comic books, but what was the thing that killed the industry for me? Crap like the Energy Superman of the late 90's, Lex Luthor getting elected President, and Spiderman selling his soul to the Devil."
In fairness, Luthor being President lasted quite a few years and was a pretty interesting development, since he still had that idea going at the time that he was a legitimate businessman.
I will admit that I'm not a big comic book reader. I have, however, seen a fair share of comic book film and TV adaptations and I think the only way a reboot would work, comic book wise, if it was in those two mediums.
After all, Batman & Robin was practically the starting point in the killing the comic book film in it's entirety but Batman Begins brought back the Dark Knight in a respectable fashion and more appealing to all ages instead of one general one.
Same goes for TV. Except the goal for TV adaptations is to appeal to the younger generation so they can actually go out and read the comics the show is based on. X-Men Evolution is probably the perfect example of that since it made the vast majority of characters from the first X-Men cartoon younger and more relatable to the next generation.
Of course, that's just my general opinion since the last comic I remember reading was Batman & Robin building an alternate reality machine so Superman can see his life if Krypton didn't blow up, even though it did in the story.
Oh Dear Lord, At first I thought, He Maybe they just might keep Flashpoint as an Ongoing. Then I Read on....about nonsense of trying to get "New Readers", Well maybe you should concentrate on you dedicated fan base first DC. Instead of the possible 5% of new readers that may want to hop on, focus on the 95.5 % that are already following. Rebooting the world Just makes fan's like, Obviously Linkara, us feel as if we wasted our time picking up back issues and learning the mythos. Thank God fans are speaking up, I mean don't get me wrong, I like Flashpoint, It's interesting, but only because I already know what the established universe is like, a reboot would make Flashpoint make less sense than it already does. *sigh* We must wait until the day Comic Companies decide to listen to US, the fans.
The reboot is bad enough but what I'd add is that they're also doing exactly what their predecessors did wrong with Crisis on Infinite Earths, picking the continuity they like and replacing what they don't with little possibility of it mashing together properly. This hurt characters like Donna Troy and Power Girl (mostly the former) but also makes any references to previous events all the more confusing.
Tossing good characters aside to create a darker, bloodier version of the comics they grew up with (isn't there a reason Hawkman and Mr. Terrific don't have their own comics anymore, or that Barry died in COIE?) is not going to solve anything.
Someone earlier said that Bruce Wayne is Batman, and while I never get drawn into these things except at my local comic store when I visit once a year... no. Just...no.
Batman is Batman. Anyone who's read their fair share of Batman stories knows that Batman is one of those fascinating characters that is the costume. Bruce Wayne is just a guy. He has as little in common with Batman as he does with the Joker. And thats because it's never clear which is the act--Bruce or Batman. Batman is a living symbol and that's not because dressing up like him is some rich guy's hobby. It's because Batman over his very long history has evolved into a hero(or antihero) that's so much a part of pop culture we cringe when we see him done wrong and cheer when he appears in all his dark glory. Its not the man in the suit, it's the legend of the suit. There's more to Batman than who wears the suit.
Disclaimer: I don't endorse what DC is doing at all, partly because they've done it before and achieved a 1 of 3 success ratio. All-Star Batman--horrifyingly bad, All-Star Superman--good, All-Star Wonder Woman--never even published. And before that, they revamped their universe a bunch of times. Continuity isn't a stone around their neck. They just remake the universe whenever they're feeling bored. And they do it so half-ass sometimes...Dick Grayson as Batman is the best example. Great idea to pass the torch, but make up your minds whether he's dead or in some time lost past or just have him frigging retire. Seriously, it makes it hard to take any major DC event at face value because the reset button is practically packaged with the comic in a Mylar bag.
As much as your upset about I'm interested in it what they Should do is just make suttle changes for certain people of this universe And what would be cool is if Barry Allen (depending if he survies Flashpoint or not) knew about the change of the universe. plus I'm looking forward to Mr. Terrific and Hawkman now what I am worried about is that Captain Atom is being written by J.T. Krul. isn't he the same idiot that turned Roy into a one arm jackass who's always high and was wiping his Ex while thinking of the women he dated which one was better in bed. Well I may be too hard on Krul he did set Green Arrow straight during Fall of Green Arrow. And I'm not sure if you like his run on Teen Titans or not. speaking of Teen Titans our favorite whinner with super powers Superboy Prime comes back in Teen Titan#99 maybe he has something to do with the reboot.
Ok now you re probably going to dislike em lewis for saying this but this is one area where I think Marvel has done things better.
Let's look at the atrocity that is "One More Day." I have alway been a fan of spider-man cartoons and movies and things for as long as I can remember. Finally a while ago I decided to get a subscription. This happened to be one issue before one more day started.
Now don't get me wrong, Peter Parker should not have made a deal with the devil and it is out of character...kinda. I do believe that he would do anything to save his loved ones but I still don't think he would go that far.
After OMD came Brand New Day and they set a few things up. Yes things were retconned and changed but the old continuity was still kept in place...again kinda. It changed things but still built off of what had come before while still changing the status quo greatly. Since OMD, they have made brilliant stories that had origins in the clone saga for petes sake. Then they had "The Gauntlet" nwhich brought back old enemies, including telling of the post retirement Rhino and how he becomes the Rhino again.
Now if you've read this far you might be wondering what this has to do with DC. Well to me, it seems like DC likes to hit the reset button on its entire universe and that does eliminate any possibility of bringing back old continuity which is why I hate these types of retcons.
I think that if they want to reset things (though they shouldn't) I agree that they should make interesting stories or have publicized events that don't have all the main story info in other books.
As much as I hate to say it and as much as you'll hate me for saying, One More Day could have been worse. If you are ever interested in picking up Spider-Man again check out "The Gauntlet" for a great read.
To sum up, I do agree with you that retcons are bad and I think total universe overhauls are worse.
If anyone does read this, I'd like to know your opinion as well
I find it funny that they are so woried about new readers, Right now I would be worried about current readers if I were them. I don't buy comics, I read ones that my friends push in my face but I don't follow anything myself. My friend however is a big green lantern fan and has gotten into the long blackest night super arc thing. If they end that arc and restart the green lantern I'm pretty sure he is not going to continue picking up green lantern. Yeah if he hears that something is good he might buy it, and they might be able to snare him again but why would you want to risk loosing someone who is already buying your products to get a hypothetical person who might never will.
Personally I do see the appeal of continuity light worlds, the comics I have read have tended to be graphic novels and one shots. But part of that with me is I like knowing that things can end, that characters can die (without it being a "look we killed superman" moment). But their have always been spin-off elsworld type stories for people more like me. Also, after a few years they will be back with the "problem" they are trying to solve, they will have a bunch of continuity.
And I don't think I ever wanted all of my heroes to be young. It was cool here or their, but I never "identified" with them, I just thought that they were cool characters.
@The_Zack_Cantrell:
There's no need to take Simone on Firestorm with a grain of salt, unless you think DC themselves may be being less than truthful about it --
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/02/the-new-justice/
Alternately, who's to say that these rebooted titles won't contain good stories? And aren't you being unfair to Gail Simone by not checking out her new Firestorm book? Given her track record, it should be a good comic, even if it's not a character you might have shown interest prior.
Ok, I read the article but Im still a little confused, maybe because this is still a new development. Does this mean they are essentially starting from scratch, like, pressing the restart button on all their series and starting at the origins? Im sorry if I sound ignorant but I just can't bare to imagine DC undoing all of the progress they've made in their past few decades. I mean I got into Batman through the animated series and started becoming a serious reader after I read "The Killing Joke," it's one of my favorite stories, and now to learn that they're just sweeping what happened in it under the rug! On one hand I'll always have the great stories I've read it's not like they can come to my house and take all of the comics with the previous continuities, but this is just backtracking! But maybe I'm misunderstanding, is this what's really happening?
Oh no....it's "ULTIMATES Logic" by DC!
This is gonna hurt. Alot.
I'm just gonna say this and get it over with, a lot of the comments here are knee jerk "ruined forever" sensationalism that, quite frankly is rooted in far more unsubstantiated rumors than the arguments that this is not a reboot are.
All of the following books ship in August, same month as Flashpoint #5 and Justice League #1, all promise continuations/fallout of their current storylines that exist independent of Flashpoint AS WELL AS a new direction for their respective franchises in the case of the first two...
WAR OF THE GREEN LANTERNS AFTERMATH #2
Written by TONY BEDARD
Art by MIGUEL SEPULVEDA
Cover by TOM FLEMING
1:10 Variant cover by MIGUEL SEPULVEDA
The blockbuster “War of the Green Lanterns” event has rocked the entire Green Lantern Corps to its core. Who is the new Green Lantern of Sector 2814? The answer will fuel the next year’s worth of GL tales!
Retailers please note: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the Previews Order Form for more information.
On sale AUGUST 10
BATMAN: GATES OF GOTHAM #5
Written by SCOTT SNYDER and KYLE HIGGINS
Art and covers by TREVOR MCCARTHY
1:25 Variant covers by DUSTIN NGUYEN
It’s Batman vs. The Architect! The downfall of a major Gotham family! The betrayal of Damian Wayne! It’s all here in this final issue, plus the untold fate of Gotham City’s first Super Villain!
Be here as GATES OF GOTHAM sets the stage for a bold new direction in the Bat books!
Retailers please note: These issues will ship with two covers each. Please see the Previews Order Form for more information.
On sale AUGUST 17
T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS #10
Written by NICK SPENCER • Art by MIKE GRELL and NICK DRAGOTTA • Cover by FIONA STAPLES
The T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents make a final stand against The Iron Maiden in the present, as a bitter truth about the villainess and Colleen is revealed in a look back at the past. One of the most critically acclaimed books of the year reaches the shocking finale of its latest chapter, but trust us, this ain’t the end – not by a long shot!
On sale AUGUST 10
Also, the JUSTICE LEAGUE book opens with a "Secret Origin" arc which probably explains why all the characters look so much younger on that issue #1 cover. Aquaman looks about the same on the Aquaman #1 cover as he did Brightest Day.
Think about all the DC books that have been announced in the last year or so that never showed up? Batwoman that keeps getting delayed, Hawkman with art by Phillip Tan (reported on last October, now confirmed for post relaunch) the Peter Milligan Red Lantern book (which was said to spin out of War of the Green Lanterns, the initial announcement/interview on CBR even took great care to even note that it WILL take place in the same universe as the current GL books and effect what happens in later stories, which seemed odd at the time but makes sense in retrospect), the Justice League International book which was announced barley a month ago and is now confirmed after the relaunch. 52 new #1 issues in one month and we've got a bunch of #1's that have been announced as spin offs from recent high profile stories and never showed up... It all seems too convenient...
Also, in a letter to retailers, Bob Wayne said "we have taken great care in maintaining continuity where most important" and that "Some of the characters will have new origins, while others will undergo minor changes."
Dan Didio has gone on the record as saying that series that are successful and writer/artist combinations that work well together won't be tweaked too much.
Now Bob Wayne has gone on the record to say it's not a reboot.
Will there be revisions to continuity? Of course, Flashpoint is a story all ABOUT altering the timeline, DC would be stupid not to use this as the perfect opportunity to inject some accessibility, life, and direction into their languishing brands. So, so, so many DC books lack direction these days that its astonishing.
While my main interest towards comics are limited to the animation adaptations and watching the Channel Awesome series revolving around them, I can certainly empathize the perceived ruination of a beloved series as a whole due to managerial or the creator's mishandling. We've had enough editorial mandated comics featured to know this would more than likely turn out to be a bad idea.
I mean Come on, all of this is occurring off a tangent to the Flashpoint Event and changed timelines. Why not just finish the story as a causality loop to repair and maintain the prior continuity? It's been done before. Eugh.
That said, not all of what might be produced may turn out to be bad. Don't have to like the cause to enjoy what resulted from it.
@taichara
I know, shes on firstorm, I meant taking her being off Birds of Prey with a grain of salt, it's an unsubstantiated rumor from a CBR article that has already been proved wrong on other fronts(namely it also said James Robinson was writing Hawkamn). She's also teased writing two book.
"And aren't you being unfair to Gail Simone by not checking out her new Firestorm book? Given her track record, it should be a good comic, even if it's not a character you might have shown interest prior."
Did you not see the part where I said I'd probably pick it up? Yeah, I may end up liking it, but it's not JUST creators that I follow. Sometimes the stories are still good, but I still have no interest in them. It's no fault of the creator, it's just that it doesn't click with me.
Does anyone have any idea how the DC Universe reboot will affect DC Universe Online? Seeing as they have characters and stories in there, particularly with Booster Gold's voiceovers and such.
I think this all sucks because I've been trying since I got into comic around the age of 8 to collect and reead various comics so I could have a great knolege and since of comics and now it looks like alot of the DC comcics I've collected and read and enjoyed now don't count in the greater skeme of the series!
They could just do like Marvel and make an Ultimate style universe(yes I know that was what the All-Star series was ment to be but they screwed that to hell and back) but not as bbadly done as it with the outcome it's got now! I've seen fanfix on DA that would actually be cewl and I can see as like a condinced easier to fallow DC universe like an Ultimate take on it with out the craziness they did in All-Star! I know All-Star Superman was geat, but Frank Miller did his own thing with All-Star Batman that had... such... NICe results and had nothing to do with the other All-Sar titles!
Ok I'm rambling!
My point being why can't they keep the current canon and just start up a 2nd canon to "lure the Newer hyper audince"!?
Well, DChas made some bad decisions recently to me in that Marvel is getting all the attention and new reader because they're turning every 2nd rate character into a movie franchise or at least giving them a bit part in another's mvoe and DC is just making a movie every couple years and out side Batman, Green Lantern, Watchmen,and Superman(tht last one sucked so bad) they're mostlymaking a bunch of comicbook movis for series I either haven't read or don't care to red(Red, Losers, Hexx, ect) Hell, they own other companies and series they could market out into movies and tv series and get more attention like the freaking WildStorm imprent that universe is pretty brutal and cewl they could makea damn WildCATs movie and sale it like a DC X-Men like franchise or the Authority and get all that attention for having a Superhero Movie(something people still think of as a kid's thing even though movies like Super, Kick-Ass, and Watchmen excist) with 2 openly gay heroes, a junky drug adled wizard, a bi-sexual and Brittish female teamleader that heads a mostly American based superteam(technically they're based in a pocket universe, but knowing how movies are dumbed down for world audences they might drop that tidbit as people are apprently too stupid to just go with it),and a guy with cyborg parts from future humans that worked like aliens and aducted him and made him into a hero with a power so complex it's near imposible to describe withoput sounding like a crazy nerd!
Rableing again!
Ok, I think I'm done with my rables, so... anyone got anything to add!?
Linkara I quite honestly agree with you on this. I'm not a big comic reader, I lean more towards The walking Dead and more non-super hero stories, but I always follow both DC and MArvel in limited capacities, if I see something that looks interesting, i give it a shot. With all that has been going on, this is an awful move on DC's part.
I want to know if this really is a giant reboot, a sin this will not be a continuation of the universe, it will just start over. Wouldn't that be a different universe than, by how universes in comics and such go? Why not go the Marvel route with this, give us an "Ultimate DC", if you will, one not of the All-Star variety (Not bashing on AS Superman, but we all know how AS Batman turned out) that could attract new readers with over-arching stories and lots of new versions of our favorite characters, without screwing over the previous continuity? I mean Ultimate Marvel seems to have a decent fanbase, decent enough that there was outcry over bullcrap like Ultimatum, than why couldn't an "Ultimate" DC universe work as well.
You know, with The Dark Knight Rises on the horizon, this reminds me of what happened when TDK came out. New Batman movie comes out, maybe makes people want to try the comics, and BAM, Morrison "kills" Bruce/Batman. This time, people will want to see the modern Batman, and will likely see this revitalized version that I have no idea what to expect on. I really hope we are all wrong and this is not as bad as it seems, but in a matter like this, the most avid comic-lovers never seem to get what they want.
I'm more optimistic than not with this series.
I agree that sometimes we start with confusing series and work it all out backwards from there, I started buying comics with X-Men's Phalanx Covenant which had one X-Man I recognised in the whole thing. We're smart enough to jump on at any point and roughly work things out, then turn to the internet or back issues to enlighten us.
However.
The comic audience is getting older and dying. Most people complain that an incarnation of their favourite character isn't being 'done right' or more specifically, isn't being done how it was when they were children. DC thought they could get round it by having every incarnation of every hero co-exist, but that made it confusing for new readers who saw three Flashes and four Green Lanterns. They've hard and soft rebooted their continuity a bunch of times already, I've grown immune to caring and just want to read good stories featuring these characters and awesome creators.
If it can get this company some new readers and a foothold in the digital market, then all the best to them.
"I'm upset about it. Maybe it'll all work out for the best - maybe I'm overreacting. It happens. But right now? I'm upset and I am going to continue to be upset about it because it feels like I've invested money and time in something for over ten years and it was for nothing."
This quote pretty much sums up the reaction to a lot of franchises as they've been lately. Star Wars comes to mind.
I've been meaning to write my own rant- not about this specifically, but about reboots. 10 years ago, it was all about prequels. Rob Zombie's Halloween murdered that trend. 5 years ago, it was all about standalone remakes. Now, it's all about reboots. Star Trek. Mortal Kombat. It's just ridiculous.
And finally. One more, very specific comment.
I just looked at the image in the article you linked to. I read the descriptions of the new costumes.
DC, I thought we agreed that most of the decisions you and Marvel made in the mid to late 90s were BAD ones. The Clone Saga. Turning Hal Jordan into a villain via poor writing. Thor in his green costume. I could go on. None of these were good decisions, and many of them involved costume changes. They were all reversed because they were BAD. And the new looks? Equally BAD. DC... I'm disappointed.
Another first time commenter - we're certainly coming out of the woodwork for this one, aren't we?
I think a basic problem with the reboot is not the fact that there is one, the major problem I see with it is that there have been several attempts at this, and all of them - while having both positive and negative aspects - were frustrating to the fanbase.
It's not even a question of RUINED FOREVER!!!!111!!1! at this point, it's just common sense to expect the worst - more often than not it comes to pass.
I'm not saying that it's guaranteed to suck and I'm not saying that I won't check anything of it out - but I'll keep being sceptic. It's hard to get excited when any "revitalization" you experienced in the last decade changed the book for the worse rather than better.
Apart from all that, it was really interesting to see how you got into comic books, Linkara. I personally mostly got into comics with continuity reboots (the Ben-Reilly-as-Spider-man run and Teen Titans vol 2) on this side of the pond, but at the same time I didn't have problems picking up on details I didn't know - I jumped into Batman with an issue 50something and grabbed an Onslaught TPB despite not having read X-Men before. And while most of these stories weren't really *good*, per se, they still worked for me - even with no continuity knowledge whatsoever, not having read the Clone Saga, not knowing anything about the Teen Titans, barely being able to tell Wolverine apart from Beast, I still enjoyed these stories and stuck with comics for more than half my life, through better or worse (even if I dropped the ball on the DCU and Marvel for a long time in favour of Vertigo). And, better yet, these stories made me go back - I read the entire Clone Saga just based on my curiosity about Ben Reilly's history and while the thing really, really sucked in retrospect it still kept me *engaged*.
I honestly think that both Marvel and DC underestimate the willingness of people to read back issues if you just get them hooked on a good issue or run. The elusive "new reader" doesn't have to be coveted - if you write good stories, they will come by themselves. Just prop a little what-happened-in-the-last-year box at the beginning of every issue and write it so that a total newbie can understand it, write good stories and give the comics interesting covers (I cannot tell you how important this is), people will pick them up and maybe stick with your product.
It's certainly better than alienating the readers you already *have*.
I think many people simply underestimate how much non-comic readers know just by virtue of popcultural osmosis. My brother has never read any comics and still he can tell apart quite a few characters, just by virtue of being aware of the recent slew of comics-based movies and having watched the early Diniverse as a kid. This alone is huge advantage for both DC and Marvel, and they should play to it.
Again, this DC reboot might end up positive, but I don't blame anyone for being highly sceptical about what it'll do to the characters and stories they've been following for the past x years.
You know.when I first heard you bring up something like this in a review I could not figure out what the deal was.I mean I thought the idea was sound that a restart would make sense.Literally a few months laters I started watching doctor who literally at the end of the second series of the revived.After that I definatly got the idea and I fully agree that it just makes more sense to keep stories going.
I have to admit the idea of something like dick grayson being batman intrigues me and resetting it doesn't plain and simple
Definitely agree here, especially on the good stories vs. reboots stuff.
And they're ditching the Supermarriage? Great, that was one of the main things which really allowed me to hold DC over Marvel, considering. That, and the Robin progression.
If we get Dick Grayson as Robin the Boy Wonder again, then nuts to them. I'll stick to my little corner of Batman Beyond (if it even still exists), and never come out.
It's funny. I actually know someone who actually became a "fan" of DC just so he could jump down other peoples' throats about how, "we need to get new readers on board," and make a big show about how everyone who disagreed with him is stuck in the past or whatever.
@#$% him, of course, but he's the kind of guy DC is pandering to. Don't get me wrong, I love DC, and I'm sure most of the comics will be top notch. The problem is that they JUST DID THIS. They did the, "let's reboot this," with Infinite Crisis, and they did the, "we need to get a new generation of readers [read: make arbitrary changes under the banner of 'modernizing'] with younger versions of the characters and redesigns on the costumes."
And, of course, Superman and Wonder Woman get the redesigns that stray most from their classic looks.
No matter what DC does, the posers--who make up the majority of comic book readers, I'm afraid--will always buy into this notion of DC being the old fuddy-duddies because, well, that's the first thing they learned. They'll pretend to be interested in this for a while, lose interest once the momentum is lost, and it'll be business as usual.
Again, I'm not even saying they shouldn't do this. I'm saying that it sounds like they're doing it for the wrong reasons.
Does this mean that Stephanie Brown won't be Batgirl anymore ?
SHIT !
Honestly, the better approach was for DC to do its version of the Ultimate Universe. (All-Star doesn't count.)
Which reminds me: part of what got me into comics was that for a while, every single Ultimate universe book was available on Marvel's digital platform for FREE (albeit after a delay). That ended a couple issues into the first Ultimates series, but it showed they were at least semi-serious about targeting new readers. Of course, this being 2001-02, this was before (and as) big companies realized "Hey wait a minute, this could really cut into our bottom line if our audience can get everything for free."
Well, since my long rant was lost to the crappiness of the log in I'm just going to do a quicker briefer version of what I said now!
I hate the reboot because I my collection of DC comicsI've biult up all these year is now basically obsilete!
How they could just keep thecanon they got now and just dotheir own Ultimate Universe like Marvel has done(but, not screw it up) and how I know that The All-Star contentuity was suppose to be DC answer toUltimate Marvel, but they FUBARed it when Miller took All-Star Batman into crazy-town unlike the All-Star Superman and killing any canon between th All-Star titles!
How DC wouldn't have to do this to gain readers if they'd just p like Marvel and release more movie properties that aren't just Batman and Superman and a bunch of unknown DC owned but not canon character movies like RED, and the Losers and Hexx!
How they could releasemore TV series and movie around some of their other companies like WildStorms!
How they could break new ground by making an Authority, Planetary, The Boys or WildCATs movie!
How people still think of comicbook movies as kid'sstuff even though movis like Super, Kick-Ass, and Watchmen have came, but if they made like an Authority movie they could get all sorts of attention and publisity with a movie with 2 openly gay superheroes, a wizard that is a heroen junky, a bi-sexaul Brittish team leader for a team that is mostly American(even though it's based in a pocket universe mostly and know halleywood' ability to under estamate the world'scollective intellogence it probaly be charge to a normal place!), a naked female cyborg, and a guy that was exsperomented on by future men and give a power that is so complex you'd have a stroke trying to explain it!
How holleywood think people are so stupid they must dumbdown Comic book movie to the point that they aren't anything like it sorce matteral!
And how most of this was my insane ramble!
I don't thin it's necessarily a bad thing. If executed well it could be the best thing to happen in a long time. If executed poorly, I pray for our SOULS!
But seriously, in the 1980 if you told someone about Crisis on Infinite Earths coming up to erase all continuity they probably would have been pissed. But Crisis on Infinite Earths kicks ass.
If it's going to be something like that, I could hardly complain.
This is a very accurate representation of how i feel actually. Yeah its to early to know everything, but i know enough.
About the only thing i think they're doing RIGHT is their digital distribution model, assuming it applies to fans outside the US and in't region blocked like film, TV and some music is. But its the only bright spark Im hanging on too.
I'm not much of a DC reader (I favor more towrds Marvel's ultimate universe despite whats going on with that and it's newer reboot) but turning the entire mainstream universe of DC comics is probably the worst idea DC has had yet, and i'm counting countdown, infinite crisis, and cry for justice.
Maybe if they did this with an alternate universe (and yes i do know about the recently, but probably not continuing, year one titles) it would have made for a better idea, even though it failed several times in the past. The only thing that gives me any slight bit of hope is the first series of the reboot, a new jL comic written by Geoff Johns and art by Jim Lee. If this doesn't work out i'm going solely for marvel comics, and even they're in hot water with bad comics right now.
Also to linkara,
After watching alot of your event videos, i noticed you seem to get more angry over DC comics rather than Marvel, now there are a few reasons i can point out now to the possibilty of this, is it possible you are more interested or even caring towards DC comics?
if you want to know how i think this, just respond to me asking
Whether you're happy about the reboot or not we really shouldn't ignore the fact that unless something drastic like this does bring up sales then the industry as we know it will be dead within a decade, FACT.
Comics have had to survive the crash in the 90's as well as competition from movies, TV and most of all, videogames. As much as people seem keen to ignore it, we, the TINY number of people buying comics right now aren't enough. Sales are dwindling each year and very few new regular readers seem to be coming aboard. DC really has no choice here, they have to do everything they can to get new readers and if taking those risks means that their end comes faster then at least they'll be able to say they tried.
The thing is, continuity doesn't really MATTER, DC aren't going to come into your houses and take away all of your old comics, they'll still be there.
And yes I'm sad that my favourite comic, Secret Six, will almost certainly get the chop and possibly be rebooted out of the DCU. Yes it sucks that Damian Wayne might just disappear. And it most definitely sucks that Barbara Gordon might be Batgirl again (don't think so though, DC are pushing for diversity, as Oracle Babs adds a disabled character to the DCU, a rare thing) when Cassandra is still available.
I applaud DC for having the guts to admit that the industry is in a deep hole and trying to dig out of it. Whereas Marvels' approach seems to be to bury their heads in the sand and cry out 'LALALA WE'RE FINE NOTHING'S WRONG, COME HERE BENDIS AND HAVE ANOTHER BOOK.'
The Comic book industry seems bizarrely fixated on it's past, leading to a strange static world where you know any event will be undone.
Well, guess what? That makes them meaningless. Constant reboots do not invite new readers they lose old ones. People stop caring because there is not one thing that they can be sure happened. They want to see their favorite characters grow and have adventures. Yes, maybe they don't really want to see them grow old and retire so Bruce Wayne ages ridiculously slowly, but they don't want to see the kids they watched learn the ropes forget everything or stop existing, either.
Love, death, every piece of character development: Meaningless because it will just have never happened in a few years.
This kind of thing is what drove me to manga in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of manga is absolute garbage but usually I can figure that out early on and write a series off instead of having to find out that it's being rebooted or handed to a different and terrible writer who will warp the characters I love into horrible mockeries of themselves.
And it won't matter any way. Another few years and guess what will happen? Continuity. Oh no, new readers won't be able to hop on. Funny, I don't see people making series of novels suddenly having to restart every few years to attract "new readers".
That said, I'll probably find some good stories in the new version of the DC universe, just like the last several. Good stories are good stories, even when the people controlling the setting are morons.
Similarly, a good story hands you everything you need to know about the characters anyway. Maybe some of the details might be more appreciated if you know the back story but the general gist of things should be obvious from events. So, continuity is really an issue if you're a hack writer, not a new reader.
Although there is every chance that the comics coming out of the reboot might be good...
The fact that my era of comics, from the late 1990s onwards, is coming to an end really saddens me.
I got into the proper DC comics via the DCAU stuff and the Cataclysm/No Man's Land events. Those events were enough for my to go and spend hundreds of pounds over the years collecting the trades and single issues so that I could get what the backstory was.
Although the reboot won't exactly erase the collections on my shelves, it is kind of disheartening that the characters that got me into comics, namely Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, etc. might be erased as part of Geoff John's Nostalgia Trip.
Considering they've announced tis even before their current Big Event is underway, it kind of gives the impression of "why should we care about the characters, in a couple of months they won't even exist", you know?
*sigh*
Writing a strip about it. Up on my blog and Dev_art account soon if anyone's interested.
Ugh Flashpoint, The rational part of my brain says that very little will be screwed up, the cynical side however says that this is all going to hell. But worse than all that this seems... unplanned. Look at how many ongoing stories there are that are in the middle of a storyline, lets look at how many ALTERNATE Earths there are to tell this kind of story. Isn't this why they INVENTED Elseworlds? The fact that this is an expanded story that was ALREADY done in The Flash (Mirror Masters Mirror World where there was never Speedsters) just lowers my intrest.
Now I'm fearful for the side characters in the Batman and Superman books, man Donna Troys backstory is ALREADY a fucking mess, now your going to change all of Wonder Womans origins? how will this affect Donna? How about Chris Kent, the third Nightwing? well given that he's out of sight, that means he's out of mind and most likely out of continuity. Connor and Cassandra?
Yeah I know I'm like Kyle Rayners biggest fan but I'm not scared for him, DC has ALREADY exiled him from Earth and affecting the continuity in any way it is very hard to get worse than that. Hell destroying him is a MERCY KILLING after they killed his relationships (Friendly or otherwise), rogues and family.
And the worst thing is they wont use this to correct the ACTUAL problems, Boomer and Roy Harper are still totally fucked canon-wise. If Donna Troy DOES survive I highly doubt her history will make sense. The Supergirl and Powergirl backstory conflicts are going to become even MORE convoluted.
Okay but thats the story side of things, what about from the buisness side?
It's STILL being done in a horribly marketed way. Your sales will go up in the beginning the drop off to the same low numbers. Oh yeah and pulling Brian Cleavinger off Firestorm (You know the guy who routinely writes a comic book that uses science, being pulled off the science superhero) in place of Gail Simone who isn't with ANY of the characters she makes awesome.
It's just... ugh. I want to be wrong, I want to be COMPLETELY wrong. If you tell me "The new Superman is actually Connor Kent" I'll bow down in happiness and worship at the new feet of the DC Gods for when Clark Kent can come back.
Did this decision originate from inside DC, or from parent company WB? It feel like a decision from WB trying to increase public profile and market share, like a decision who doe snot understand the market as well as they probably think they do. We will have to wait and see if the reboot sticks, or is undone in some months.
As of now, this seems like DC's companywide version of OMD - with the small consolation that the characters themeselves have done nothing, storywise, to bring it about. Just the whims of a vengeful editorial board.
One point I would expand upon in term of continuity is that the current DC team seem to have only two radical stances on Continuity. There should be none or there should be everything.
Either stories revolve around continuity to a massive degree, focusing on events that happened ages ago, or they ignore all of it. As you did say, you can tell good stories that don't rely to heavily on continuity, but act more as a sugary bonus to the cake of comic books that is made better as a result of the sugar.
Also everyone knows Lois Lane is going to end up with Clark Kent, and is meant to be with him. We discovered that through decades of character development, nobody cares about a new take anymore, what's done is done.
So basically you are being upset based on rumors and personal preference. We don't know yet if Babrbara Gordon will be Batgirl again and we don't know yet if Clark and Lois will be seperated. We have exactly one source that claimed this and even they only guessed. And maybe you should check out Firestorm if you like Gail Simone this much. Saying "i don't like writer xxxxx being taken off a series i like and instead write about a character i don't care about" is just pure whining. Did you expect her to write the BoP for the rest of her career? Maybe she enjoys writing something completely diefferent for a change, her twitter posts seemed pretty hyped up about this.
And saying "tell good stories and the readers will come"...sorry, but that is clearly not the way this works. If it was, series like Blue Beetle would be top sellers.
I do agree that the reboot is a terrible idea, especially because of, as you basically said, the resulting ending of Morrison's amazing run on Batman. However, while I don't know that much about Firestorm, he shows up enough that I would like to know a bit more about him, and I'll probably give the Simone comics of him a try.
My problem is, I can't even tell what's going to happen. Is it a reboot? Or are they just starting with new #1's and a "bold new direction?" The fact that I'm legitimately confused by this is probably a bad indication of DC getting their message out.
If it's a reboot...didn't they just spend several years revamping their most popular franchise with Batman, and building up franchises like Green Lantern? And didn't they just re-introduce Vertigo characters to their universe? And bring back Aquaman and a host of others? Uhm, what was the point of all that, then?
And if it's just a relaunch with new #1's...well, that worked so well with Marvel ten years ago.
I think what DC needs to be careful with is the idea that a "jumping-on point" is also a great "jumping-off point". Because of economics and a general heightened interest in the direction of my first great comics' love (Spider-Man), I was going to have to trim a lot of comic-buying habits to get upcoming products I'm really psyched for. DC made that decision a lot easier for me with this move.
(Also, in regards to your opening example, I have been informed that "laying off" indicates a person losing employment without fault, but "firing" indicates losing employment due to one's own actions.)
@The Shut-in:
Yes, but they also should consider the idea that the risk they're taking has the possibility of not only alienating long-term fans, but not attracting new readers.
It's not something that is guaranteed to happen, but at this point I'm more or less done following DC comics because they just don't seem like they understand what the hell they're doing with the majority of their IPs.
I'm sick of waiting for the next reboot or the next "new direction" for a character, and sick of Geoff Johns being the big dog when Grant Morrison's stories and ideas are ten times better. And I'm sick about the idea that Grant Morrison's Batman arc (if you ask me, the best Batman has ever had) will never come to fruition.
So at absolute very least, they've alienated me through this decision. That said, what if they don't attract two new readers to replace me? I know they likely will, and I know that this will probably be a good move in the end for their sales, but what if it's not?
What if they fuck up, and this hastens the decline of the comic book by removing the die-hard fanbase DC has been depending on for a long time in favor of new readers who don't care? DC should be more careful to be honest and fully reveal what they're doing so that established fans don't feel as betrayed as I already do.
Yeah, stuff like this is why I haven't gotten into DC comics the same way I have with Marvel and Spider-Man in particular.
Despite the fact that I love Batman and many of the DC characters, I'm hesitent, and was once too intimidated, to get into a universe that has been rebooted so many times that it's difficult to know what's canon / important and what's not unless you're already a fan.
Heck, what DC needs to realize is that characters can be given a fresh start without doing away with continuity.
Heck, Spider-Man has done it a couple of times. For example, after the Clone Saga, we got back to the Spider-Man we knew and loved from before that over-angsty mess started. While the story that came immediately before, Revalations, had to have drastic events happen to get to that point, aside from revealing Norman Osborn was alive (which was a retcon and not a reboot) there wasn't any major ignoring of continuity. The story moved forward, not backwards.
I don't happen to read comics so I don't have the same upset over this, but I want to commend you on something in this post. You've mentioned several times how the idea of starting over with fresh continuity doesn't appeal to you, but I've never really understood why until now. From my perspective, the thing keeping me from comic books (besides time and money issues) is a fear of years, and sometimes decades, of continuity; it feels like turning on a hugely complex TV show to catch the finale and being totally blindsided.
That said, your point about embracing history rather than denying it, moving forward rather than back, struck such a chord with me. Especially with the advent of information technology, new readers can easily catch up on past plots, bits of character development, etc.
It feels like so many companies have become more obsessed with sales than quality, and I understand that to a certain extent--this recession hasn't been kind to many people and printed media is falling by the wayside. But a reboot like this seems like it will cause more problems than solve them in the long run, especially if they decide to pull a newspaper-Spider-Man and undo it due to reader outcry (unlikely but possible).
Glass Half Full: This may (may) lead to new and intriguing stories that, for whatever reason, couldn't have worked in the current DCU. At the very least it should give you new cannon fodder for AT4W.
I think Rob Bricken may have said it best <a href="http://www.toplessrobot.com/2011/06/dc_hits_the_reset_button.php>here:</a>
"I think that DC is doing something extremely smart in an extremely stupid way."
...If this had been an Ultimate Universrse-style series, it could've worked. But it isn't. DC is pissing off hardcore fans, & how exactly do they market these books to the new crowd in such a short time?
Linkara, when I began watching your videos, I only partially understood why you hated Identity Crisis. And now, among other things, I understand why it deserves a full amount of rage: because that's where it all began. DC's constant need to top themselves with some new "life-changing" event comic or Crisis on a yearly basis. So much clutter & look where it led us.
...Also, sorry, I'm slightly drunk/crazed again.
And if it helps cheer you up, here's <a href="http://www.toplessrobot.com/2011/06/robs_wonder_woman_tv_pilot_faq.php>Rob's look at the unaired Wonder Woman pilot</a>...Which may actually piss you off as well, sorry, but the man is damn funny. ^^;
Hence the reason why i like Marvel.
"(Also, in regards to your opening example, I have been informed that "laying off" indicates a person losing employment without fault, but "firing" indicates losing employment due to one's own actions.)"
I get the difference, but my analogy is that the end result is the same.
"And if it helps cheer you up, here's <a href="http://www.toplessrobot.com/2011/06/robs_wonder_woman_tv_pilot_faq.php>Rob's look at the unaired Wonder Woman pilot</a>...Which may actually piss you off as well, sorry, but the man is damn funny. ^^;"
Oh, it was indeed hilarious - primarily because everything that I had read about it beforehand made it clear that I wouldn't enjoy it if it DID make the airwaves because it was so NOT Wonder Woman. XD
I understand a lot of people are confused and upset about the DCU reboot. As for me, I'm just unsure what to think to be honest. I never really read many DC books. I have various trade paperbacks, though and I had been wanting to read some DC stuff. Sadly, the characters I wanted to read about are going to be rebooted. Which, of course sucks.
I read mostly Marvel growing up and I can't imagine something like this happening to the likes of Spider-Man and everyone else. To be sure, it's a hard time to be a fan of the DC pantheon of heroes and villains.
I can understand your anger toward this event. I would be too if suddenly the Marvel Universe was wiped clean and started over again just by Thanos snapping his fingers or something. Your story of how you got into comics is similar to mine and I think a lot of peoples'.
I got into comics by watching Spider-Man on Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends as a kid. (Yeah, I'm showing my age here. LOL.) Intrigued, I went to the store and got a copy of Web of Spider-Man.
Change in comics is often on a huge scale like this. As a reader, I watched from afar as DC changed their universes again and again. That just makes me ask. Which reality is "The right one"? If rebooting everything to make things accessible is the way to go, what if people want to read what happened before? Won't that confuse more people?
Those are questions a lot of new readers of DC might ask. I know as I've been wondering about these things. I dunno if I'll check out a book or two. I may just browse them at my local store as I tend to do anyway.
The worse that could possibly come out of this is that you get to review Flashpoint and the aftermath. Which to me seems a lot like House of M and Age of Apocalypse combined. You can channel your frustration in a positive way and I think that's the best way to go about it, my friend. Will it be negative? Time will tell.
As the man once said. "Face front, true believer!" Stay the course and see what happens.
Gotta love status quo. If all of this is true, my love for comics has almost completely dried up. At least I'll still have Empowered and Chew.
Am I the only one who's excited about this? Sure, I don't like the idea of great series getting cancelled, but it's like you said Linkara. Good stories bring people in, not events. And any shake up brings the potential to bring good stories (look at Crisis on Infinite Earths). Maybe Superman and Louis won't be together. Maybe some characters will change. While it's depressing to see a ton of character development go out the window, at the same time, if the writers know what they're doing, then a good story can be told regardless of continuity. Granted, breaking up Clark and Louis WOULD be the DC equivalent of OMD, and that would suck. But while OMD was a slow non-consensual butt pillaging of Spidey fans, that doesn't mean that ALL stories since have been terrible (not that Lewis said that, just as an example). I'm really looking forward to Gail Simone's run on Firestorm. I love BoP, and I'll be said to see her leave it, but I also love good writers taking on relatively obscure characters (though I didn't know Brian Clevinger was even going to write it. That would have been awesome, Atomic Robo kicks ASS!). Frankly, the fact that this has gotten people talking is good.
You know I only got into comics this year along with a few friends and we just wiki things when we don't get it really not that difficult.
And if Barbra goes back to being freaking batgirl... Man when I heard she was Oracle I cheered because when I was a little girl watching Batman the animated series she was my hero. The fact that she's still out there now as Oracle makes me love her all the more.
Also there will be blood if we go back to Dick Grayson as Robin. (just saying...)
Like many of the other commenters have said I don't know why DC isn't just setting up a sort of Ultimate Universe rather than alienating their fan base by rebooting. Why gamble trying to win over new readers that might pick up your new comic, and risk losing a large amount of your fan base in the process
To me, this hits even harder since it comes right after Brightest Day and Generation Lost, which after spending a year buying and reading that series, makes me feel like I wasted my time. Especially when Generation Lost seemed to promise that the JLI would be returning, bringing most of the formers members, as well as the Jamie Reyes Blue Beetle (who will most likely be wiped from canon in favor of Ted Kord, which I’m sure is bound to bug you). Speaking of, if the plan is to reboot everything, possibly resetting the entire universe, what does this mean for characters who share titles? Will they be erased from canon? It boggles the mind why they would just erase everything comic fans have been reading for years, just to attract maybe a few new readers, who will still be jaded since the new costumes take away from the iconography in my opinion.
If they want to reboot a universe rather than make a new one, reboot the All Star Universe or something. At least then you could have your “Ultimate” DC as well as have fans be able to completely forget Crazy Steve.
This change doesn't invalidate your recommendation post, good stories don't stop being good stories when continuity is swept under the rug.
Not only do I agree wholeheartedly with you, man, and it's rubbish like this that's always put me off mainstream superhero comics (case in point, my favourite American comic would be Transmet which actually ended, what, 6 years ago?). If they wanted to do something new, they should have just ended the old characters and started from scratch completely, this strikes me as a lazy way to go about world building.
While this certainly isn't just the remit of the big 2, publishers like them should really stop treating their readers as idiots. I for one have nothing against trawling through the back catalogues to find out about event X or character Y, and I know I'm not the only one. Evidently the publishers assume I have a 5 minute attention span. Thanks DC...
@ Morgan: they already STARTED to do their own version of the Ultimate universe. It was called Earth One. Stupid and self-contradictory name, but Superman: Earth One was really, REALLY popular, and had all the same, "oh we're going for something that will appeal to the younger generation," etc.
Confusion. That seems to be the magic word with this. We are snapping at each other, donning our sackcloth and ashes, waiting for some sort of clear goddamn COMMUNICATION.
Nobody knows what the hell is going on or what is going to happen. Nobody knows what is going to continue and what is going to end. Nobody knows if it is is going to work or not.
Nobody knows anything.
That is the source of frustration. Ignorance is only bliss when you don't know that you are freaking clueless.
Thing is, maybe this isn't a bad thing. Maybe this "reboot" thing can go both ways. if the comics can reset themselves, why can't I?
So i am announcing my own "reader reboot" project, coming in a few months. No more continuity issues. No more character derailment. No more favorite series cancellations. No more anger.
I am going to wait for my pull box list to empty, and then close it. Form now on, i only read what catches my eye from the rack after a game of D&D. I am going to read my comics like I did in the good old days: by not giving a shit.
I am rejoining the blissfully unaware ranks of the "casual reader". If DC is right, being one of them is going to KICK. ASS.
Come, join me in just not giving a shit anymore. Because they are going to do it anyway and really, does anyone have a better idea?
P.S. Something tells me that the Continuity Alarm is going to get quite a workout after all is said and done.
This is the same issue I have with Power Rangers Samurai, which is indeed basically a reboot of the franchise (MMPR Remix possibly included). It seems that people have this notion that you can either pander to existing fans (read: nostalgics) or new people but not both at the same time. This is a completely flawed way of going about creating a new audience in an existing franchise.
Let's look at Disney for a second here. They were trying something new in their alliance with Pixar, going into computer-animated movies rather than traditional cel-style animation. How did they pull it off? They created stories (Toy Story, Cars, The Incredibles, etc.) that appealed to those who grew up with Disney and their kids or younger siblings, thus ensuring that Pixar (and Disney by extension) had an audience moving forward.
DC, however, is doing what Saban did with Power Rangers: throwing in a little bit to keep the older fans around, but for the most part alienating older fans in favor of newer fans. Saban threw in nostalgic references but blatantly marketed PR Samurai to kids, and DC's bone is that...well, at least they didn't destroy the Holy Trinity of DC. This does not create any kind of franchise growth or progression. What it does is create a sense of 700 steps forward, 1500 steps back.
One last contrast: Nintendo and at least two of their key franchises, Mario and Kirby. Both series are rife with examples of continued progression and experimentation, and yet they remain simple and fresh enough to continue to bring in new players. Even Mario's return to 2.5D on the DS and Wii has come with continued innovation and challenge. This is a model that not only allows for the maintenance of existing fans but also opens the door for new ones.
Bottom line: if DC really wanted to bring in new readers, they shouldn't have hit the reset button. They should have employed writers and editors who are good at making what exists accessible to new fans. It's not like people can't find out whatever they want/need to know these days; they just need a reason to want to learn.
"But right now? I'm upset and I am going to continue to be upset about it because it feels like I've invested money and time in something for over ten years and it was for nothing."
My thoughts EXACTLY. My favorite Comic Arch was "Braniac"; it fit everything into continuity with room for more story concepts than ever before. And now, especially with Superman with the Siegal controversy, thetime and money invested will be POINTLESS, plain and simple.
I'm feeling kind of a mix between excitement and concern. On the one hand, I've thought that comics in general could use some kind of kick in the pants for years now... on the other, this is a damn risky venture if they really go completely through with it.
It could make or break DC. This will be an interesting year to be a nerd.
Hey Lewis,
Dunno if you saw this or anyone else linked you to it yet, but Gail Simone herself has some pretty interesting things to say about the DC reboot bruhaha and actually addresses what I think are some of your concerns: http://tinyurl.com/3cnfb2c
I have to say I kind of agree with her. I understand how invested readers are in continuity and I understand how exciting it is to delve into mythology once you discover a new favourite character (it's happened to me on several occasions too), but I have to say that, for me at least and speaking as a casual American comics fan, excessive continuity IS overwhelming.
I think far too many creators overdose on continuity references and mythology nods to the point that it becomes wearisome to try and sort through it all. Sometimes this can be done well, but a lot of the times it seems unnecessary and detracts very heavily from the actual plot, themes or character arcs. It also doesn't help when you have leagues of sparring creators at war with one another over how to handle specific characters. Look at the balking over Wonder Woman, Cassandra Cain, Spider-Man and Stephanie Brown, for example.
This is not to say I'm in favour of having no shared history at all. I think it's very important for a universe to develop a tapestry-like mythology and watching it unfold before you is very exciting and some of the most fun you can have with serialized media. However, this must be done in moderation and should not happen to the point of making something inaccessible and impossible to understand.
Here's an example of how this can go awry: I loved Battlestar Galactica, but its hardcore serialization made it very difficult to follow at times and often I would despair if I missed a week for whatever reason because I would tune in for the next episode and have absolutely no idea what was going on. I think modern Doctor Who has the same problem: I'm trying to get my family into the show, but when I tuned into this season with them they got very frustrated because they didn't understand anything literally at all and I had to do Steven Moffat 101 with them during commercials as their eyes quickly glazed over. I'm going to tell you right now that's an absolutely perfect way to drive off new or casual fans. I think this issue is rampant in the American comics industry and DC has a point.
I guess what I'm saying is that I feel continuity and mythology needs to be balanced with accessibility. Have your story arcs and mythology, sure, but don't go crazy with them to the point that it confuses and frustrates everyone except the most loyal fans. It is possible to have your cake and eat it too: I think Classic Doctor Who (at least in the 1960s and 1970s) and the 80s and early 90s Star Treks did this very well, and I submit Tintin, Marsupilami and the Palmiotti/Connor/Grey Power Girl as comic examples. Each of those has reoccurring story arcs and motifs and references things going on in the larger universe, but critically, they can all stand on their own as well. You could pick up a random issue of PG or tune into a random episode of TNG and DS9 and be reasonably certain you would get a mostly-stand alone adventure with familiar heroes you could jump right into that may or may not be part of a larger story. I have a feeling that low threshold for entry is a big part of why those works were so successful.
I do have problems with the DC reboot, mostly in regards to whether or not certain characters will be forced to start from square one or be reimagined with consideration given to their growth and development in recent years (I'm thinking mainly about Babs Gordon and Poison Ivy here), but overall I think the idea shows a lot of promise and hope it succeeds. Of course, it could all fall flat on its face and totally implode too; that's always an option. But we can always hope, yeah?
Best regards,
Josh
I've been a casual fan of comics for a good chunk of my life. And by casual, I mean I have an older brother who routingly goes to comic book stores a week, and out of several he picks up, I manage to only read maybe one or two of them. My main interest in comics have been Spider-man and Sonic comics, but every so often I get to read Batman and Robin/Inc. comics, Red Robin, very few Flash comics.
However, I have a decent amount of comic book history, through my brothers, wikipedia, and sometimes, Atop the Fourth Wall. And as was said the the Ultimatum 5 review, I'm exceptionally lucky to have access to all this information. Is the 60+ years of DC history daunting at times? Honestly it is, BUT when you read a Batman story or watch an episode of Brave and the Bold, and see all these referances to the sillier silver and golden age stories, it makes me smile to see them, even if I'm not going out of my way to collect these books. Spider-man is still embarrised over his Spider-Bugie, and that was over 40 years ago. That's amazing.
I'm not sure if this "Flashpoint" event and the reboot are one and the same thing. I was told that Booster Gold (a character I haven't read but love seeing him in different mediums) discovered that he can't return to the 'proper timeline' because he is in THE 'proper timeline' despite the changes that have been made around him. This thought just immediately made me think of Back to the Future 2, where some point in the past, the time line skewed in a tanget creating an alternate 'proper timeline'. 'Alternate' for me, you, and Einstein, but 'proper' for everyone else.
I can't imagine 'Flashpoint' being permanent though, so maybe the reboot is something else.
I certainly agree that any reboot, false or not, is a bad idea. Admitedly though, I've been reading almost every available Amazing Spider-Man since Brand New Day, and I've thoughrouly been enjoying it. I actually missed the Civil War, and I heard about One More day, and despite how stupid that was, I've found that the ideas brought into the stories now have been pretty fun most of the time. Was it a necessary change? NO, but there seemed to have been some good that came from it (the sudden and possible revival of Ben Reilly).
If writers/editors are forcing this change to happen, my only thought is 'go ahead, but if you do this, you invite the possibility of future generations of comic book fans and writers to re-write the continuity's back into continuity'. Which could result in fans of the generation where the reboot happened, to complain about that change. Maybe even an equivalent 'Atop the Fifth Wall" reveiwer will emerge to write a post about why continuing the the old continuity is a bad idea.
I think this idea will certainly inspire people, for good or ill.
Hmm, well based on the info on the Source about the GL franchise, the Spectrum Corps are intact, and John, Kyle, and Guy are still around. This may mean that other titles like the Bat family books may not change much either, but the answer grows clear as mud.
I'm trying to remain optimistic but I dunno. I just think that the biggest problem in comics isn't continuity. It's trying to invest in a character emotionally when their entire life and history can be reset on a whim. Y'know?
Seriously, this feels like Spider-Man The-Event-that-shall-not-be-named all over again. Maybe the motivation behind is different, but the result is the same.
I LIKE continuity. Contiuity and back story is what kept me interested in Spider-Man (back when I still read it) and what I enjoy most about Batman comics. Hush is one of my favourite comics and that is because it works so well with what has been estasblished about these characters for DECADES!
"whether or not certain characters will be forced to start from square one or be reimagined with consideration given to their growth and development in recent years (I'm thinking mainly about Babs Gordon and Poison Ivy here),"
Hoo boy, if they retcon out the LesYay of Birds of Prey or Harley and Ivy, TVTropes will implode. That or riot.
I got my torch and pitchfork right next to the front door, by the way.
Well I fall into being more into adaptions then reading comics, but this can end up very badly. Sometimes a reboot can be good, but sometimes it can cause major problems.
The thing they should do is have a clear idea what has changed and provide all this information to all writers and artist. The changes should be clear for all characters before the reboots are even started. Also future story lines for each book should be in some central place so everyone knows what others are planning.
Hopefully this will get around problems some characters have had with 300 different origin stories.
In many ways comics are like "extended universes" of Star Wars and Star Trek. Each new writer and team have there own ideas and often ignore what has come before for their new stories often leading to confusion for everyone.
But, this can end very badly just causing even more confusion for everyone like the last time major reboots was tried by either Marvel or DC.
I agree with you completely Linkara - and I have my own comment to add to it. If comic writers feel they can't be inclusive to new readers without starting over every ten years or so - thats called LAZYNESS. They are too lazy to use good storytelling to pull in readers, so they do the easy "lets start over again" card instead of being creative with what they have.
One thing that concerns me that no one seems to be mentioning is this "more diverse" thing. As I see it, there's a difference between diversity (Star Trek) and a racial quota (Superfriends).
I've got other issues but those are more personal preference so I won't bore people. But still...I'll give it a chance. God willing mistakes like Dick and Babs as Robin and Batgirl or Superman being single will be fixed, either at the writers' own accord or by DC being receptive to fan outcry where Marvel wasn't on OMD.
Before I begin, let me just say that, while I have only barely become interested in comics, I understand where everyone is coming from. I understand how everyone can be upset that DC is sweeping continuity under the rug in favor of something new. I understand how everyone is feeling, and I am sorry to hear it.
However, when I heard this news, I interpreted it a bit differently than everybody else. Again, maybe it's because I haven't really gotten into comics yet, but I read into it a bit differently. Namely, the reason WHY DC is rebooting everything. Yes, it's to get new readers, but I think there's more to it than that. What I've read seemed to emphasize the reason was to boost sales. A lot of emphasis was placed on the recession and how the comic industry has been affected.
Which leads me to why it seems DC is rebooting everything: they're desperate.
The feeling I got was that, financially, DC isn't doing well, and could very well go under if this doesn't happen. It seemed to me like they NEED to increase sales and get new readers, otherwise all those comics would end anyway. Marvel doesn't need to worry about this, but that's only because they got bought out by Disney. I may be wrong on all this, though (I have no idea what a company like DC needs to stay afloat, so feel free to call me a dumbass).
In your hilariously timed Ultimatum reboot discussion, you said that you liked the fact that comic stories were ongoing and didn't have a planned end. Well, if DC did go under, then all those stories would end anyway. It sucks, but it may be necessary to get stories in general.
Again, this is just my interpretation of the whole thing. I have no idea how accurate I am, I have no idea how well off DC is financially at the moment, and I have no idea how all this sales stuff works anyway. I'm throwing my voice out there, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
whats with all these reboots first archie is rebooting sonic and now Dc is rebooting the entire universe
I'm looking at the link you posted. It looks EXACTLY like Countdown . And I know that age appropriateness is important, but for the love of all things good and holy, not everyone likes the teenage hero!
Okay what the hell?
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/03/geoff-johns-talks-green-lantern-1-with-the-associated-press/
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/03/green-lantern-1s/
This only raises FURTHER QUESTIONS.
Explain, corporation, EXPLAIN!
DC comics must feel they are in financial trouble if they are pulling bullshit like this. Retconing the entire universe is not going bring in new fans, its going to make all their current fans leave the company forever.
If DC comics is really interested in saving their company they need to fire Dan Didio and never look back. This whole thing reeks of his bullshit. Reading that article I can just tell he has no concept on what makes good comics. It's comic books run by a stupid failed marketing executive who is willing to try any stupid move to save their product even if that move involves lighting the product on fire and calling it an improvement.
And the fact that people have lost their jobs over this is very telling. He's not just content to ruin the stories but he also has to fire some of the best talent in the industry as well. I haven't seen an editor in chief as scummy as Dan Didio since Mark Alessi who ran Crossgen Comics into the ground. Fuck Dan Didio. He needs to be fired and kept away from my comics. He's already done enough damage.
On the plus side of this reboot. It might recton Identity Crisis and all those stupid mind wipe storylines out of existence. That and it could fix all the horrible OOC of several Teen Titans and Cassandra Cain, Leslie Thomkins, and everything and everyone else that's been pissing fans off.
Knowing DC though they won't do that.
This really upsets me since I have been reading Batgirl, Birds of Prey, Secret Six, and Booster Gold since they began(on the DC side of my comiclist). I've been enjoying where these characters have been going and where they might be headed and now it just might not matter anymore. Question is what will happen to characters like Stephanie Brown or Dick Grayson who have taken the mantle of their predecessors? Are they going to be put in limbo or regressed to their previous states? Not only that but the Death of Oracle storyline is now pointless if Barbara is going to return to being Batgirl and no longer being a mentor to the new one. Sorry if I seem to be ranting but I take these things seriously as I like to see characters evolve and not be put into the whole one more day scenario. As for now I will remain pessimistic until I hear the final news on August when the final issue comes out. I don't know how much good will come out from this. As of now I will be putting my attention on two Marvel issues I am currently reading.
I honestly, honestly want to break down the door and punch Dan Didio in the freaking face. Anyone notice that he has a part in almost everything that is bad with DC? Countdown? Cry for Justice? GOD!!!!! If Morrison breaks Lois and Clark up I am going to punch him. Somehow, I will. Simone should stay with Birds of Prey and Wondie. I just can't believe that Geoff Johns, my favorite writer, has a hand in all this. WHYYYYYYYYYY?!!!!
I agree completely. Readers like to see characters grow over the years, not shrink. I'm sad that Dick will be Robin again and Tim will most likely no longer exist. is there a chance that this is a "Heroes Reborn" sort of thing?
I keep seeing a lot of people saying maybe this will work for to get some new readers. But tell me, seriously, does DC think it will work? Sure there will likely always be comic fans, but if DC alienates the core readers it has now, and they walk away from the comics, than new readers come in, whose really to say the new readers will stay? I mean I bought
Kevin Smith's recent Batman mini-series, but that did not end up with me jumping onto the full-fledged title series in any capacity. I think by the time this enw universe sets in, DC's sales are going to show a gigantic decline.
I honestly fell out of comic reading for a long time... but what brought me back in?
The Sinestro Corp War arc and the build up to Blackest Night. I fell in love with the Blue Lantern Corp almost immediately, and, well, now I own a Blue Power Ring and a Blue Lantern shirt. The fact that this reboot is happening might cause a huge rift in fans though, more than it already has.
Take for example: there's a Green Lantern cartoon being made, in which the Red Lanterns are the bad guys and Saint Walker, a major Blue Lantern, will be a main ally of Hal Jordan and the Greens. HOWEVER... with this reboot, I'm afraid that everything will be reduced right back down to Green, and Sinestro as sole Yellow... meaning if someone picks up the comics after the reboot and watches the show, they won't know who Atrocitus and Saint Walker are, and think that the Red and Blue Corps were made up for the show.
Likewise with Batman, if a new fan were to talk to an older fan... they'd "WTF?" face at any mentions of Oracle, Cassandra Cain, and, shit, maybe even TIM DRAKE, the most recognizable Robin outside of Dick Grayson!
Right now, it seems like that this reboot will do nothing more than cause a permanent schism between older fans and this "newer" generation.
This is a terrible idea.
It's a shame I just started getting into comic books. I would have liked to see more with Batman Inc. and how Nightwing is the new Batman.
I just...wow this isn't fun.
I recently had a good old chin wag with my girlfriend who is also a big comic book fan. We talked about the embracing of new concepts in comics, and how change can be such a good thing as it allows development.
Hell, you said the same thing, the life and times of a character is what makes them strong individuals. I have to admit, I am slightly more than a casual comic fan, but I feel upset by this. Not just for the fact that essentially these characters are being killed off and replaced by their shiny new alter egos. But everything they stood for as well.
I am hoping that such inspirational Characters such as Kathy Kane and the Oracle. Characters that where wonderful because they ment something to people with a disability or a sexual preference. Maybe I am being a little over the top, but to me, they seem to be rather strong characters. And their probable alteration/removal will annoy me greatly.
And the Lois and Clack, this sucks as well because it will be one more day. The bumbling reporter and the girl of his dreams.
It's old hat, sure it's wonderful stuff and classic comics. But it's classic. If I want the continuing pre-marriage relationship I read a comic focusing on that, but I don't want to experience the whole thing anew, probably made gritty for the 'real' version now.
I just hope that this "Reboot" is more a tying off of any loose ends the universe might have, perhaps killing off silly plot threads and cutting the fat. I can only prey its that. Because a true reboot for this would be short of killing off all your characters and replacing them with what I can only think will be trash.
Hell, if DC want to tell new stories, why don't they just have a new separate run of heroes? Why not make something totally original? Why couldn't they be creative. What does rebooting the DCU accomplish? In an age of the internet, online reviewers and easy access information concerning these comics...why do it? What do you want? New stories? Like funk and wagnal are we going to get that. We will get the SAME stories, the same drawl.
Urgh, way to kill my faith in you DC are sweeping 60 plus years of continuity under the carptet and pretending it didn't happen. For what? So you can repackage everything they already have for money.
I prey to Zod that this doesn't lead to so much needless character death.
I'm choosing to try and remain postive about the reboot (because frankly, it's that or cry) but the real thing that's bugging me - apart from the very real possibility of Lois and Clark no longer being together, and losing Supergirl, my favourite superhero - is that all things that are chucked in this reboot will be back. ALL OF THEM. Think how many things lost in the Crisis on Infinite Earths reboot are now back in continuity. So the rebooting itself is pointless, and DC are annoying their own fans for, in the end, pretty much nothing.
Well, at least we can all look up the old stories in the mean time. We still have the glory days of good stories before that hack Dan Didio took control and began running the story qualities into the ground. I hate Didio.
Hello Linkara, I really don't have that much to say about the reboot, due to the fact that I don't read comics (but I'm interested in them). The only thing that I have to say about the reboot is the redesigns, because I like artwork and how some artist design the costumes. All I have to say is that I don't see why some people don't like it, the only things that I find odd is Cyborgs redesign and I do miss Wonder Womans gold color parts of her outfit, but other than that I don't see any problems. If you can, please response I would like to hear your thoughts about the designs.
PS:This is the reboot art work, right? http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9504/imageprocasp.jpg
DC going digital is one thing that I say is good: it finally will allow for more readers to read comic books without having to be bound to a store since they can do it through the web.
But the reboot...is stupid, pure and simple. If this was merely just "introducing these characters but using this to enter into their world", that's one thing...but to have a total reset button for many characters (and not every one, see Green Lantern continuing on) is just utter ridiculous. It's all about business and cleaning up continuity instead of telling good stories sadly.
BTW: I think it wouldn't have anything to really do with the show but with all your talk of Teen Titans/Titans in this and all the screw ups they've done all this time with them, I suggest maybe you should do a "top 15 Teen Titans characters" episode to show why you love these characters and why you hate what DC is doing with them. It may be a tad geeky but it should show why crap like killing them off and screwing with them every which way (see the upcoming "Rise of Arsenal" review) isn't what they deserve.
They never pull this kind of crap in Usagi Yojimbo. :)
I'm a relatively new reader and I feel that this is just a really lame attempt at trying to get new readers. Also Linkara I feel not only worried for Batman Inc. but also for GL: Emerald Warriors which I feel had so much promise to it. Hopefully DC won't go altering everything and have some stories be set where we left off.
This ahs the potentialto be the most epic fails at DC since the Explosion.
Lewis!!! Good news!! Found this in a USA Today article about the Reboot: "The recent emphasis on diverse characters such as lesbian superheroine Batwoman, Hispanic hero Blue Beetle and African-American adventurer Cyborg (who will be a core member of Johns and Lee's new Justice League) also will continue."
Jaime's here to stay!!! As always, Jaime Reyes is a bright light in an otherwise dark comic book world.
Full article: http://www.usatoday.com/life/comics/2011-06-01-dc-comics-why-the-change_n.htm
Hey Linkara, I read off those links posted somwhere above, as well as a few other sources, and while I still don't like this, I think a lot has come from merely speculation. I still stand by my previous two posts if a lot changes, but all the talk about Green Lantern in those articles indicates the series will pick up where all current running GL series leave off, inlcuding new additions and a Red Lantern series as well. So I could be wrong, but it seems that maybe this won't be a major change. Like everything will be updated, and characters may be de-aged some, but it is possible that it will just continue on from current DC continuity. However, Geoff Johns keeps saying something like "When you see the cover, you will get it, but this Green LAntern starts out of this universe" or something to that effect, so really I have no idea. But again, if this turns out to be a giant reboot after all, I stand by my previous two posts, but maybe we are all reading into this wrong.
I'm under the assumption that Flashpoint is going to be the cause of these reboots in continuity (the way Crisis was--sort-of--for the '86/'87 reboots) and I picked up issue #2. I actually don't think it's half bad.
My concern is this.
As a JLI fan, I LOVED Generation Lost and am really looking forward to the new ongoing.
But now... that story never existed, right? So we get our new JLI book in the middle of nowhere...
Well ... I have very mixed feelings about all this. In one way I am excited because that means that maybe some of the nonsense that has happened recently can get undone, and it's also a chance for everyone to sit down, have a pow wow and agree on some details that constantly get changed depending on the writer, much to the fury of audiences trying to keep track of said details. But the emphasis on the fact that these are younger characters is a bit nerve wracking (because we all know how well that worked in the Ultimate Universe over at Marvel) and it seems likely that they're going to be undoing a whole heck of a lot of interesting character development. Oh well ... I guess we'll have to wait and see.
What I am expecting from the relaunch is something along the lines of the Doctor Who revival that started in 2005. It wasn't a new series and still had all of the continuity of the old series, but it was the perfect spot for new people to jump in. So we would still have Dick as Batman, but there won't be as much of a need to find out why. This is still 4 months away so we will have to wait and see.
One thing I am interested in is that one of the relaunch titles to release in September is Red Lanterns #1. I can't wait to see how that works out.
Another thing I have to mention is that a lot of people seem to be happy about the same day digital release for comics. I wonder how Comic book shops must fell about this, though they probably make more money off old, and preowned comics than new ones.
Although I can muster up some excitement from, at such a young age, getting to witness the genesis and rebirth of an entire comic universe, I mostly agree with you, Linkara.
I simply feel that DC just isn't coming from a good place with this reboot. I think they're too concerned about this "new reader" issue.
"I hate that Birds of Prey is being relaunched (AGAIN) without Gail Simone. I'm upset that she's working on a character, Firestorm, who I have zero interest in."
Oh dear. Well, I'm sorry to hear that a comic you obviously like so much is being lost to these events, but I must say that that second bit of news there I rather like. So far, I'm not a big comic reader - I'm almost solely a Green Lantern reader, and I pick up the trades, not individual issues - but I have recently acquired the first two volumes of Brightest Day, and they managed to get me somewhat interested in Firestorm. When a friend of mine who is a much bigger comic fan than I'll ever be mentioned this reboot to me I was kind of hoping Firestorm might get his own series out of it, so learning that this is happening and it'll be written by someone you've so frequently praised gives me some hope that I may have another good comic book to read in the future.
So, it's a pity you'll be losing a comic series you love to this, but perhaps your loss is others' gain, eh?
Also, if what my friend was telling me was announced about the Green Lantern series today is true, that will apparently be largely unaffected by the reboot (other than shuffling around the books each character is most prominent in and launching the new Red Lantern and New Guardians series), so perhaps the changes won't be as extensive as you're fearing (i.e. Oracle reverting to Batgirl and such, unless those were based on overt hints from DC that I haven't heard of).
What? DC's pulling this "reboot" nonsense again?!
They tried to reboot the Legion... twice, with good writers and artists each time. Sure enough, the Legion has reverted to its original form as if none of it happened. The same will happen with all the other books. Silly, silly move.
As you say, write good stories and they will come. Maybe they should give new writers a chance instead of recycling the same tired hacks?
I think I actually burst out in a mixture of laughter and shock when I found out Kyle was going to be the leader of the New Guardians. I mean sure it's not him going back to earth (Or is it? it's very rare that DC will go "Who will be the new Lantern of 2814?" and then just have it be the same guy as last)
And the moment I not so much 'raised my hopes' old Kyle boy was coming home I at least had this image.
It's time to choose who's going where, the guardians are up for announcing the new 2814 Lantern. Kyle turns to congratulate Hal before his named is called out, stopping mid word baloon
"Awah?"
Guy Gardner has already ran off, bringing back a stereo which booms out Ludacris 'Move Bitch' to a shocked GLC. raising himself from his shock Kyle winks at his bro for the past few years and mock struts his was out of the hall, ringing up a green car like he used in 'The New Corp' Mini and drives off into space.
Obviously wont happen but it had me laughing my ass off just imagining it.
Anyway now that I've calmed down from my 'Oh god Flashpoint will destroy everything' I'm still not pleased with the comic. The entire thing seems rushed as all hell, I mean usually they BUILD to a Reboot of some sort, and I believe DC when they say only Superman and Wonder Woman are getting the major reboot... but they are still two BIG characters in the DCU. That affects not just them, but there supporting casts, who have been involved in a LOT of past things in the DCU. Donna Troy has been on tonnes of Titans Teams, what about their VILLAINS? What happens if Lex Luthor gets retconned? does that mean my awesome JLA story 'World War III' stops being Canon? I like WORLD WAR III!
Still oddly enough despite my previous freak out I don't fear for Donna Troy, the girl has survived EVERY crisis she's been in, DC has had plenty of opportunities to kill her off before now and she's surprisingly popular among the fanbase. She might at most get a more streamlined origin (Yes yes, ANOTHER Origin, maybe Linkara shouldn't have punched the Source Wall) but I don't fear for her life like Chris "I'm in the Phantom Zone, watch them forget me" Kent, and Connor "I was the Badass warrior monk" Hawke.
Anyway back on what I was saying. I expected like a... 6 month build up for the event, enough time for every story being told to finish and DC to start building it all towards Flashpoint. For fucks sake, COUNTDOWN got build up, Final Crisis got YEARS of build up and it didn't change anything. This just seems, rushed.
Also Bruce can't be the ONLY Batman, because there's one in the JLI and one in the JLA, and pulling double duty is Wolverines job damn it! I mean Blackest Night had TONNES of build, and this is Geoff Johns damn it, like or hate him the man PLANS his shit out. It just seems like DC is rushing Flashpoint, either for the 'Anonymous' reason in the thread, or because of something else.
But you know what I'll wait and see, Bleeding Cool doesn't exactly give a source for shit all. And not to mention that it's not like we've seen Superman changed drasticly or anything in the pa- OH WAIT ELECTRIC SUPERMAN! Yeah, it scares the crap out of me now, but I'm willing to give the changes a chance to not piss me off.
Although Flashpoint as a comic? still pretty much sucks, too rushed.
hey DC what about readers like me. i got into comics heavily from the cartoon series. i didn't start reading them until a year ago. But know you tell me you are just redoing it again.
i mainly buy past stories in hard cover but i like reading so i can gain an understanding of the characters past and there potrail's in comic sow hen i start buying normal $3 comics i do not feel like i'm jumping into the deep end.
so what know all the comics i have read up, speacilly about batman and booster gold (thanks linkara for getting me into him, bought 1 book will be buying more). there stories don't matter, all the character development your past writes have put into these characters just go to a waste. I knwo there still good stories which a good read but i still fill know a bit empty since these won't matter to the present charatcer.
this does not mean i want read your comics still DC but not any of your modern ones.
weren't doing the new version characters on earth 1.
you fail DC
also what about jonah hex. since he is the past for DC, does he get wiped out, does he get restarted soon.
i know he is the lesser known characters but he does have some fans like me.
But the real question is: Does this change your schedule?
You make some very good points, Linkara.
I may not be much of a comics person, but this is enough to bother even me. If I understand this correctly, DC isn't just rebooting one or two titles, they're rebooting /everything/. That really doesn't seem like much of an enticement for me to get into comics. In spite of my relatively deficient literacy about the characters, I would have liked for the things I do know to matter, should I take an interest in DC's printed products.
If they'd wanted to start something new, why couldn't they have just come up with that instead of rebooting all the existing characters? Certainly they've got the resources for that. I guess I just don't understand corporate logic.
At any rate, I suppose DC should be happy I'm still willing to spend money on the movies based on their characters every now and again. Hopefully, this reboot won't affect those too much
The idea that you -need- to bring back "Classic" incarnations of characters to bring in new readers is just plain stupid. Just take the Batgirl issue. How much time do you need to tell readers that Barbara Gordon used to be Batgirl, got shot in the spine by the Joker, and is now Oracle, fighting crime online with the new Batgirl as her protege?
ONE PAGE. ONE GODDAMN PAGE. That's all it takes, and not only do you introduce your characters and their backstory, you INSTANTLY give your world more depth, because it now has History.
A lot of Independant superhero comics just plain INVENT fake Continuity for their titles, to make the otherwise original universe feel like it has more depth. The DCU can do this, without having to invent anything.
*Sigh* This Reboot has the potential to be either very good, or very bad.
They can claim it's to 'attract new readers', but it' not. Certain creators *cough*Didio*cough* *cough*Geoff Johns*cough* within DC have made no secret of their desire to undo last 30 or so years of character growth and development, such as Barbara Gordon's development in becoming Oracle, so they can have their beloved Silver Age pabulum back. This is just those fans getting their way at the expense of current fans who outnumber them 10-to-1.
so are they scraping all current story lines and history in place of this new reboot?
If they are that is such a mind fuck to anyone who follows the current stories.
I'm not an avid comic book reader but i follow what i like if i can. Are some stories hard to jump into,yes but not impossible.
Also i agree about time wasted on these characters that have good stories and good histories that made them into the characters we love. It is sad that the ones we know and love will no longer be what they are.
I will try to keep my mind open though. There is has to be some good in this also we really dont know a lot yet. When more information comes to light we can have a better opinion.
As a non-reader I thought I'd give my opinions because I've considered trying to get in to comics before.
First of all, the digital distribution thing has me excited, yes. It's great, welcome to the present, DC!
Now, from my perspective what can be off putting and intimidating to someone not into comics is not that there's a long line of backstory and continuity, that's not an issue at all, in fact it's an asset, the fact that there's a filled out universe to draw from is a good ting.
I'd rather say that it's these types of reboots that form the issues. Characters chaning names, having their origins modified, no it's actually an alternate universe no the timeline was changed no I don't know what's going on.
I think a reboot like this, while it might manage to atract new readers, is a very short-sighted solution.
My knee-jerk reaction to all this is 'ouch'. It really hurts when I jerk my knee, ever since that bike accident...
Anyway, what comic companies don't seem to understand is that as a reader, I make a huge investment in comics; not just money, but time, emotion, and brain-power. I study up on a character, get to know and love them, spend time with them, visit them once a month, learn everything I can about them...
Then somebody says 'I'm too good a writer for that, I'm throwing out everything you loved. If you don't like it, you're a whiny little fanboy.'
Yeah, well, I am. That's what you've been making of me all these years by making characters I care about.
So when something like this happens, not only is my investment wasted, but how much? I never know afterwards just how much continuity is still on board or not?
I hope you'll forgive the long-winded nature of this comment, but this whole thing has got my mind working overdrive:
PART 1
I'm kinda torn on this issue. On one hand, the idea of starting the books over from the start is kinda intriguing in that I'm curious as to what could be done with these characters when they have a clean slate. After all, when the Ultimate Universe started up with Ultimate Spider-Man, I really enjoyed it. It was new stories about iconic characters told by today's standards. It was effective and well executed in my opinion.
On the other hand... I remember where the Ultimate Universe is now (cough/ultimatum/cough) and I'm rather depressed.
I don't want to see the same fate befall DC. Especially when its not an alternate universe like the Ultimate line, but instead the primary universe.
DC is trying to get new fans. I understand that. And sometimes it DOES help to shake things up from the old status quo to get people interested again. And I also understand that for some, the heavy 60 plus years of continuity can be somewhat daunting.
But continuity isn't a bad thing, and that's how it feels like its being treated to most of us. Its BECAUSE of the rich history of these characters, that many of us got interested in comics in the first place. For me, it was picking up an issue ROBIN II. This was my induction into DC Comics Fandoms, and it made me want to learn about the rest of the DCU. This is how it often works.
DC is going for this "reboot" to draw in new readers & seeing as we don’t know everything yet, I'm not going to yet scream "DOOM". After all, it might work. But still the question in the back of my mind is: what if it doesn't? What if these actions don't draw in new readers & instead push the old ones away? What if the new & the old fans don't like it? I think that's what most of us are afraid of. We're worried this whole thing is going to turn into another BATMAN ALL STAR, where the book seemed cool, but instead was a bad joke.
Then there's the whole thing about this NOT being a reboot, but instead a new DCU. This confuses me. Characters are being made younger, origins & history are being retold from the start, & yet other aspects of the current DCU will remain, despite the drastic changes in other areas. For example its implied that the events of Darkest Night remain. The Four Lanterns stay, while other character fates remain unknown.
To be Continued...
PART 2
This is coming off as both a reboot & retcon to me. Parts are being rebooted completely, while others are only having their history edited. The funny thing is: this isn't the first time DC has done such as thing. Crisis on Infinite Earths, was a great story. But isn't it an example of what DC is trying to do now: trim the fat, edit and simplify the stories and hopefully draw in new readers. They removed the multiverse, rebooted several characters from scratch (i.e Superman & Wonder Woman), while leaving other characters essentially untouched or at least have parts of their histories edited.
For the most part, this worked out, didn't it? I mean, look how that worked out. Many of us fans are Post-Crisis, we're pretty happy that the Crisis on Infinite Earths happened. I'm willing to bet however, the fans at the time didn’t like what was going on... And that story had its share of problems too. Characters like Donna Troy had their histories fudged up. Other characters like Kara Zor-El were removed entirely.
This is why I'm on the fence about this idea. I’m not happy at the idea things being edited, erased to restarted. And if asked, I'd prefer they not it, because I like what I already have. But at the same time, DC has done this sort of move before with the Crisis and it worked out somehow. So, despite for now, I'm going to give it a chance, hope for some good stories. And if not, I hope for a hasty return back to the current status quo.
So, thus concluded my rant for now. I hope it made sense. :P
You've pretty much summed up my thoughts, Link. Seriously, on your recommendations and praise in your reviews, Lewis, I read Crisis on Infinite Earths, enjoyed it, checked out 52 which pulled me back into the DC universe. I got back into Green Lantern, a hero my father introduced me too and have read all the way up till Blackest Night and enjoyed the experience. I even decided to check out the Justice League cartoons and found it to be just as enjoyable as the Batman and Superman cartoons I watched when I was younger (even has the same VAs). But this? My God, why couldn't they have just started their own version of the Ultimate Universe. I mean, there's 52 DC universes right? Elaborate on a new one. I should feel rage like you Lewis, but really the rage just gives way to a drained feeling as I realize all that time and money I've spent and above all the enjoyment of getting back into Green Lantern, reading 52, and CoIE have all been flushed down the toilet and my only consolation is that they at least can't destroy the cartoons. Time to return to anime and manga, and drown the rest of my sorrows in the Justice League cartoons and my incoming copy of inFamous 2. Anyone care to join me?
That's exactly what I think about the reboot. EXACTLY. Your spiel about history and interwoven stories and discovering this huge treasure trove of continuity. You said everything I've been bursting to say but couldn't find the words. Look at this huge, sprawling universe full of heroes who all have personalities built up by years and years of stories and layer upon layer of dynamic relationships with one another. It's MARVELOUS, it's glorious, it makes me shiver with delight when I think about it. I don't ever want it to go away.
But Linkara? Don't worry about your recommendations being "worthless". They're not. Just because all these titles are being rebooted, doesn't mean we can't enjoy the 25 years of post-crisis continuity that came before it, or the 50 years of pre-crisis continuity that came before 1986. Just because it's ending, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Enjoy it the way you enjoy a cancelled show.
I prefer to find a silver lining here: now that I don't have to worry about new comics (because I'm dropping DC post-Flashpoint), I can take my time to leisurely read everything that came before it, and imagine what comes after it. I was on scans_daily a couple days ago, and I saw a great comment (paraphrased): "Post-Flashpoint, the main DC universe may be the rebooted one, but I'll always believe that this current universe is still in existence somewhere in the DC multiverse — it's just that no new stories are being told about it."
But all in all, I cling to the hope this ends up a colossal failure like Zero Hour, and everything will go back to how it used to be. I can't believe the day came when I'm saying that Marvel has more respect for it's characters than DC does (also? The past few years actually made me hate Geoff Johns, who I always thought was great. Now I realize he's great at action and concepts, but terrible at characters.)
Also WHY, WHY, WHY, if they wanted to draw new readers in with a reboot, couldn't they have launched an Ultimate Universe ala Marvel? WHY???? I would have actually been excited about that!!!
Well...hmm...uh...blah.
That's pretty much my reaction to the whole "Reboot" thing. I think I know why I'm only getting old stuff now.
Anyway, all we can hope to come from this are some good stories. Plus, we don't know what's actually gonna happen.
So, now all I can say is "Well, let's pray they don't frack it up!"
Hey Linkara, you stole my archtype quote you jackass (smile.)
As for the so called reboot I am both nauseated and terrified because I get the feeling that this will blow up in their faces and end up folding the company and I have had this feeling for awhile perhaps it's for the best maybe just maybe we need to let them fall down hard so it turns into a blessing in deguise.
but then again I've only been lurking due to money issues so perhaps that's a good thing.
Nathaniel Hood said:
"Yes, these are characters that we love. Yes, changes are coming. Does that have to be a bad thing? No. I think that the best thing to EVER happen to Superman was his character getting rebooted in Crisis on Infinite Earths. "
Absolutely true — I wouldn't be mad about the reboot if this was a situation like 1985 and Crisis on Infinite Earths. The thing is that this *isn't* like Crisis On Infinite Earths, which was awesome because it came when DC was flailing under the datedness and unusability of their characters and the unshakable impact of the Silver Age, (In fact, COIE was probably one of the best things to ever happen to the DC universe ever — Marvel was leagues ahead of DC in story quality before it), and only the characters that really needed it got rebooted. There's nothing remotely 1985 about the state of the DC universe right now. They're just doing it because they want to, for the publicity and this nonexistent new reader, not because they need to. It's only been a year since Infinite Crisis brought back the whole freaking multiverse, and it's a crying shame the biggest use it got was Donna, Kyle, Jason, and Bob the Monitor's "Your Princess Is In Another Castle" jaunt in Countdown.
And as far as I'm concerned, one massive reboot is all you should have. Rebooting and rebooting cheapens the immense, breathtaking wham effect of COIE, and turns continuity into a mess instead of a clear cut post-Crisis/pre-Crisis division that shows just how frickin' HUGE COIE was — so huge it changed everything forever. It's like having a long string of girlfriends die like Gwen Stacy after the death of Gwen Stacy, or have the Kingpin ruin Daredevil's life every couple of years, or have Superman die and resurrect himself over and over. Or in other media — have people shoot at the President in The West Wing every season, or have Picard turned into a Borg more than once in Star Trek. It the kind of thing you can only do once and still leave everyone reeling from the shock that you actually did it, the kind of thing you can only do once and have it be something that changed everything forever. COIE was a landmark event, and it was good because it was so huge and different from everything else.
For what I have understand, it looks like they is'nt really reebooting the DCU, but rather work with a parallel rebooted universe, something like Marvel did with the Ultiverse (yeah, I know, it doesn't sound that great after you just finished showing the mess that Marvel did there too... but, anyway...)
Why I'm saying that? Well, first, Bob Wayne said that is'nt exactly a reboot. And if you take a look at some of the covers for the issues after Flashpoint's end, you can see that some of them appears to keep the actual continuity. So probably this "reboot" is going to use the 52 diferent earths that appeared after 52.
And it makes sense. DC had some heavy-hitters recently, with The Longest Night/Brightest Day sagas, the Batman Inc. inssues... It would be stupid to, exactly when you're doing it right, throw everything on the garbage and start anew.
But, I can tell you something. I did'nt like the Wonder Woman x Superman afair, even if it plays in a rebooted parallel universe. It's like you said on your DK 2 review linkara: just because their powers look alike, it does'nt mean they should stay togheter... it doesn't make sense, even on a good story like Kingdom Come.
But unlike you, I still have some faith on this "reboot". At least, maybe they'll tell some good stories, like the first ones on the Marvel Ultiverse.
I'm really going to miss Damian Wayne and GM's run on Batman. I think that DC will at least say everything that has happened so far has happened and that the reboot is another universe altogether. It still sucks that we won't get new stories starring the characters we've come to know, though.
If what anonymous says is true, about WB imposing this on DC, then I'd say that that's extremely petty. DC is the company that made you so much darn money and just recently spawned a TDK movie based on work that spanned several decades of material (starting with Batman #1 and ending with Long Halloween) and you decide now would be a good idea to just abandon said work? It will be possible to get fantastic stories from the reboot, but said stories are every bit as possible in the current DCU.
It could be worse: a friend of mine once suggested a Doctor Who reboot where the Doctor is a tentacle monster inside a human body (yes, just like the Daleks) because he thinks that regeneration is 'dumb'.
"it feels like I've invested money and time in something for over ten years and it was for nothing."
This is kind of saddening to read as a (non-superhero) comics creator. Wasn't the enjoyment of the stories at the time something? Even if you can't get continuing adventures, there was something you enjoyed at the time, right? That's definitely not nothing.
The situation at DC reminds me of this scene from "Space Madness" (Ren and Stimpy):
"Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?"
At which point Stimpy says 'No.' and pushes the blasted thing.
Only in DC's case it is more like this:
DC: I firmly believe no body can understand this as I can't and so it must be a totally SNAFUed mess (hits reset button and we get CoIE)
DC: uhhhh seems that FUBARed these characters and the rewrites are making things worse (hits reset button again-Say Hello to Zero Hour)
DC: Oh for crying out loud we still need alternative timelines for some of the stories to still work. Well if we tap this thing we will only get a very
minor retcon that will fix everything. (taps reset button-Hypertime is born.)
DC: Uh next to nobody is using this Hypertime idea and continuity is starting to go south again. Ok lets try that one more time (hits reset
button again-Infinate Crisis)
DC: Ok we do need a multiverse but lets limit it. (Say hello to 52)
Reader: Uh DC can you stop playing with that button?
DC: But we need more readers. (Hit the thing yet again)
Linkara, you and many of the commentators who've responded to your post here have hit the hammer on the head.
The only thing I have to add is how apparently some, but not all of the DC Comics creators were apparently warned that this was coming over a year ago. JMS is an example. According to an article on Bleeding Cool that quoted his facebook pagehe was told about this, thus why he wrote Grounded and his Wonder Woman arc like he did. He figured that they were going to be retconned anyways, so why bother!
Kinda puts some things about the last year or so of DC Comics in perspective now, doesn't it?
Yeah, the obvious rebuttal (which Alain M. Diaz brought up) is "It worked for Crisis On Infinite Earths!", but I don't think that argument applies here. Crisis On Infinite Earths came when DC was in the dumps and desperately needed to be revitalized. Also, Crisis On Infinite Earths was the very first time they did a reboot like that, and something that's great the first time you do it isn't necessarily great second or third time you do it, especially when it's as big a deal as this. I guess the thing is that no one really wants a reboot in 2011, while a lot of people were gung ho for or at least intrigued by a reboot in 1985.
Jeez, first Archie with the Sonic comic, now DC? What's even more upsetting is that this is hot on the heels of "Brightest Day", which, while I've never actually read it, is intriguing enough for me to take a casual look into, and from what I'm hearing one of the BEST crossover events in DC's history. I will admit to being of the mind that bad stories should be retconned out, but even bad writers have SOME potential to be wasted, and getting rid of the good with the bad is just an insult to the fans of those good stories. And, as you said, it's not just that the old stuff is no longer being considered canon, anymore, but also the twisted attempts to "improve" the series with the reboot that seriously pisses fans off; to go with another Archie Sonic reference, I can live without Ian Flynn's abysmal take on the Freedom Fighters as of late, but I also can live without the reboot shoehorning them unnaturally into the game setting that it's going to take place in, now. It's just...not kosher, y'know?
There's actually a fairly interesting parallel here with Doctor Who, of all things. Think about it... Doctor Who had a very long history before being cancelled, then rebooted over a decade later. The new series has a ton of fans, many of whom will no doubt go and watch the classic episodes or spinoff series.
But this only works because the new series is worth watching on its own; you don't need to watch all the classic episodes to understand the plot, yet there are many nods and references to the old series, compelling viewers to actually go back and watch those too to get a deeper understand of things; and of course in the process, they can watch some (mostly) great TV.
The same thing works with comics, to a point: as you've said, good stories enable the reader to understand what's going on without having to know much about the various characters' backgrounds.
The thing is... comics are a hell lot more complicated than Doctor Who. Speaking as someone who isn't a particularly avid comic reader and tends to more seek out certain collections or event comics that seem interesting (ie. going for individual stories), I can say that in many cases, understanding these stories is something of a challenge. The ones that really stand alone (such as Elseworld stories or indie comics not set in a larger universe) are easy enough to understand, because the writer rightfully assumes the reader knows nothing about the characters. On the other hand, most comics published by DC tie into the larger continuuity and are written based on the idea that the reader is somewhat familiar with the world and the characters; this is simply done because explaining characters in every story would feel terribly redundant to long-time readers.
Because of these reasons, I think a reboot might actually be a good idea, if done right. They could say they keep most of the old continuuity, keep all the old characters, same costumes, same personality, etc. But also start writing all stories as if they were completely fresh and written for people who have basically no idea who Batman or Wonder Woman is; then you can add small references or nods to old events. Have Wonder Woman use her lasso, but also introduce it in-story the first time it's featured; have old villains reappear, but introduce them as if they were new (to the reader), instead of assuming the reader has an idea of who Lex Luthor is.
Obviously DC is -not- going down this route, they're really just hitting the reset button on everything and trying to start from scratch... which will probably result in a lot of confused stories and a lot of very angry fans, which will eventually likely lead to the whole thing getting undone and then HEY LOOK ULTIMATUM...
This is going to be a disaster for DC. Let's face it: sales will JUMP when the new number 1s come out. Everyone is going to want to see who Robin is, how messed up Donna Troy's origin will be, etc. But after the first issues, most previously devoted fans will find themselves unhappy with the new continuity and drop the book. Does DC really think the number of new readers will compensate for the number of old readers they've lost?
So does anyone know if it's going to be like a COIE thing where most of the events won't matter, or is it going to be One More Day, with some changes but keeping most of the history intact? If it's the latter, it might not be too bad, as long as it isn't as poorly executed as OMD. Though I'm hoping it will just be something like Infinite Crisis, with only minor, insignificant changes. It seems that the Red Lanterns are still going to exist, and I don't think they would have brought in Swamp Thing and Constantine to the DCU for nothing, so maybe there still will be some continuity left. As long as they don't make 25 years of history completely worthless, it could bring some positive freshness to the DC universe.
To be honest I haven't really been enjoying the latest BOP vol at all, so I'm not too bothered about that. But the recent Action Comics, Detective comics, Batman Inc., Flash, Green lantern Corps and such were going strong, and it will be sad to completely ignore all the development in it (and personally frustrating, since I contributed a lot to comic book wikis). Getting rid of Oracle, Lois Lane and stuff is going to be incredibly lame if it happens. What's going to happen to all of the Robins other than Grayson, or the later Batgirls?
I guess one advantage is that some of the poorer decisions won't count either (Cry For Justice).
Oh well, I guess we'll have to wait. I personally don't think it will be as huge of a reboot as COIE, but if it is, I'm definitely not going to be as invested in the DCU any longer. I just hope that the praise that the Superman Earth One book got wasn't the reason for this.
I never got the "continuity lock-out thing". When I read my first Marvel comic in around 94 or so, the whole continuity and shared universe is what really got me interested in the Marvel Universe. I liked the idea that something that happened in the past, would be referenced in later issues, whether it be in the same book or not.
Heck, after I stopped reading comics in high school, you know what got me back into it? Infinite Crisis - and the only DC comics I'd read before that one were a few Batman books and a couple of JLA issues. I just loved seeing all the characters interact with each other, and it encouraged me to buy comics featuring some of the characters from that book, and in a couple of years, I managed to read most of the major "post-crisis" DC books.
Though reading this bit doesn't make it seem too bad: "Some of the characters will have new origins, while others will undergo minor changes. Our characters are always being updated; however, this is the first time all of our characters will be presented in a new way all at once."
Origins are pretty much updated constantly (Superman just had a new "origins" mini last year, I think), the only difference is that this time it's a lot more widespread, and the fact that they mentioned that some characters will only have "minor changes" gives me some hope that the characters histories won't be completely thrown out of the window. The only thing that really bothers me is the "age" thing. I guess it wouldn't be the worst thing if they knocked some characters down a few years, but if they're going to make people like Dick Grayson, Roy Harper, and Wally West kids again, I'm definitely not going to be happy.
If they're going to make huge changes I hope they're at least going to make Billy Batson Captain Marvel again.
One more thing. If they are going to ignore present continuity, they had better damn well make sure that there's going to be a good "ending".
They should really just end comics as a whole. It's been an amazing time but rather then watch comics suffer with even worse stories then some of them do now (Cry for Justice, Rise of Arsenal, anything Marvel prints) with events happening every month (hell they practically do) they should just get every writer together and end it.
You mentioned batgirl specifically.
The only Batgirl I’ve ever been emotionally invested in is Cassandra Cain.
The title was rebooted recently with Stephanie Brown as the new Batgirl. Steph is horrible. I know that many disagree, but I can’t stand her.
Continuity Alarm
{How can a character live through domestic abuse, have a baby, become a robin, start a mob war, live in impoverished Africa, and still be written as the most cliche snarky teenage amateur superhero imaginable. Seriously, she’s interchangeable with many teen girl superheroes. Even people who hated Cassandra admit she was unique.}
Still, this was Batgirls reboot. With less than two years, it’s too soon for another.
Just one thing on Dick Grayson not being Batman:
I think this is going to drive away whatever readers who started reading Batman since he took over the mantle. For example, I grew up with the short-lived Bucky Captain America, and was extremely upset when I heard the character I invested in for 4 (give or take) years was losing what I knew him by. The same applies to Batman readers, and this will drive away fans who started reading recently, thus hurting DC.
Well we finally see the Nightwing cover... and it's the Renegade Costume? Bwah? There are a few ways this works out to be good, and a few ways this can be TERRIBLE.
Good:
Tim Drake is the new Nightwing carrying over his colour scheme from Red Robin.
Jason Todd is the new Nightwing (even though it looked like he was the new Wingman but shut up I'll take what I can get) who is taking his 'red' colour scheme to the title
Bad:
Dick Grayson is Nightwing again, this is just... ugh.
Nightwing is any of the above 3, but a villain now hence the renegade costume.
Here's why this is terrible,
A. It didn't work for Dick before why would it work now?
B. While Jason Todd is a killer and an anti-hero he has always firmly fought on the side of justice (except those times when he didn't) yes he fights against Batman and Green Arrow and Nightwing those times, but deep down he's STILL a crime fighter, a murdering crime fighter but none the less a crime fighter.
C. Tim Drake is pretty much the new Dick Grayson, he's friends with EVERYONE! he has no reason to turn to villainy.
I'm honestly going to have to disagree with Linkara a little on this. The massive continuity has kept me away from the Marvel and DC. My favorite American comic is Hellboy, because I can start with Vol. 1 and then go to Vol. 2 and so on and eventually read everything. This is why I also read lots of manga. That being said, this won't help me get into DC. Well, if this was what they claimed it was going to be it would, but it won't be.
The only thing that is less appealing to then a comic full of 30 years of continuity is a comic full of 30 years of continuity AND recons.
Honestly, I could be convinced to fight my way through a mess of continuity, but knowing that everything is just going to be retconned away, not interested.
What I want to know, what's gonna happen to Blue Beetle with the reboot? Do we return to Ted Kord, or does Jaime stick? Feels like a catch 22, whichever way they go, we'd suffer a great lost.
@Bold New Guy: You know there's more to comics than just DC and Marvel, right? Even then, there are good books produced by those companies that aren't just crossover events, and even after the reboot, there still will be some good DC books. Continuity doesn't affect the quality of writing.
Hey at least they might bring back Blue Beetle
As a person who doesn't read mainstream comic books but wants to, this makes me feel like if I get invested into this universe, it'd be a waste because it'll just be rebooted or retconned away.
However, with Dark Horse Comics, I can follow Star Wars comics without worrying about the whole universe going away, I can read Empowered without worrying that they might fire Adam Warren and hire someone else to do it. I can read limited series like Watchmen, I can read animated tie-ins like Team Titans Go and the Batman The Animated Series comics because they've completed their runs and aren't going anywhere. If I never touch a mainstream comic, I'll probably never have my investments turn to nothing. So yeah, nice job breaking it DC and Marvel.
"Also, DC announced they would also release digital comics of those releases on the same day from now on. That's fantastic and I love it"
I agreed with you up until this point. I am not a fan of this, all it is going to do is take money away from already struggling comic book shops.
. I'm upset that Batgirl is very likely going to be Barbara Gordon again, undoing 20+ years of character development of her as Oracle.
THIS. This 100%. There are so few disabled heroes in comics, and Oracle was such a groundbreaking, awesome character and one of my favorite characters in the Batverse.
Seriously, comics. Stop rebooting. You get a few new readers, but you confuse so many of your old readers that is it really worth it?
...though the digital comic same day releases? That is cool.
D: I'm going to miss Stephanie Brown as Batgirl. She was doing so well, and that whole comic was just great...
I just hope to the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind that they keep Renee Montoya as The Question. I really liked how she did in 52 and in Final Crisis...
Completely agree with your overall statement. Just tell good stories! You don't have to make them universe-ending events or massive multiplayer crossovers with variant covers by different artists and forewords by whatever celebrity you can get to pound on a keyboard.
All you need is a good, entertaining story. That's it. That's all. This isn't rocket science. This isn't quantum bloody mechanics. This isn't even high school gym class! It's the simplest goddamn thing in the world and they just can't seem to get it into their skulls!
When I heard about the rebooting, (and let's face it, it IS a rebooting) I felt more frustrated than anything since it seems like independent comic book companies seem to get it moreso than the Big Two! Write good stories and the readers will follow.
Hey, if some people don't consider buying Superman books, I don't see how they are gonna consider buying completely redesigned Superman, but whatever.
Some people are saying this is gonna be usefull for making TV and movies about them, but don't TV and movie makers already redesign most of this stuff at least somewhat?
I'm not particularly mad, I just don't think this is gonna do what they want it to do.
I got sucked into the 1st Crisis in 85' which was a reboot. I've been a fan on, and off since. And enen that has been rebooted. The new reboot does kinda suck,because I've been into a lot of the current stuff.
But if you look at it if it was never rebooted at all Batman,Superman'and Wonderwoman would be like 100 years old(character age) they are from the late 1930s,and early'40s.
Now what if an ongoing saga of generations from the originals was what we were reading about. An interesting thought,but that would be so complicated you may never catch up.
So yeah, i just found out about this today,and I'm once again in WTF mode. I hope they do it well. Because it could very well bite them in the @$$. Lets hope not,but I guess we'll see.
I agree as well and I'm really not looking forward to these changes. I've read some mixed comments though, some saying that its a total reboot while others are saying its more of a soft reboot similar to Infinite Crisis or the like. Either one I think will be a pain, but I'm hoping its at least the latter.
I do have some sympathy though towards DC as from most of what I've read they're doing this as a hail Mary to attract new readers, meaning if they did nothing they would basically just be surrendering themselves to future bankruptcy, which quite frankly I think is going to still be an issue.
I'm hoping its just a few costume changes and minor continuity tweaks, I don't think it would be anything as big as Lois and Clark not being together. Even non comic book fans know that those two are together. I'm thinking Bruce will go back to being the only Batman though which is unfortunate. It seems like DC lately has been all about referencing the older canon though/bringing back the old characters, so I think if anything this "reboot" will just basically be retelling all those old stories with maybe a few twists here and there.
Then again, this is really just speculation, probably optimistic speculation at that, I suppose time will tell just what DC has in store for us, but if it is just an attempt to stave off bankruptcy then I'm hopeful most of the past will be preserved.
What is this, I don't even. I don't get why DC acts like it's characters exist in a vaccuum that can be shaken up and rearranged whenever! It's completely alientating when for the all development someone has it can be completely undone with just a few monthes storytelling (and usually bad storyline at that)
The book has tons and tons of heroes I had never heard of before and it was glorious because it made me want to learn more about them, to learn more about a history I had never thought existed.
THIS. This is exactly my process for reading comic books and getting sucked into new series and new character fandoms. I see a character or event referenced in something that I'm reading, I want to learn more, I hop onto the internet and find which issues/trades I need to read, and then I hit up Amazon and ebay. History is what sucks me in.
This may be a reason why I've always spent more money on Marvel than on DC - because Marvel has so much more delicious, delicious backstory and continuity for me to dive into!
I usually read Marvel more than DC but I swear I was about to pick up a large portion of the back catalouge of green lantern, to get up to speed with some of the stories and get aquainted with the character before seeing the movie. I figured it would be exciting to learn more about a character I hadn't really paid attention to for a long time.
But now that they're rebooting....it's the epitome of discouragement. I mean why should I care about the history of these characters if DC doesn't even care? I still want to read more DC stuff, but now it's like driving down a street because u want to see a beautiful park but when you get down you see the construction of a mall being done overtop of it.
So there you go DC you're reboot just robbed you of literally HUNDREDS of my potential dollars.
Good job.
"So there you go DC you're reboot just robbed you of literally HUNDREDS of my potential dollars.
Good job."
If it helps, based on the solicits we've seen, Green Lantern will definitely be continuing without any direct rebooting.
it sounds like someone proposed an Ultimate universe type thing, another guy proposed another crisis, and then someone just said "why not do both?"
There are a bunch of extra Earths they could do these "younger and hipper" type stories on, why do they need to reboot what already exists and alienate their customers?
Now in GOOD news, Jason Todd finally has his own title, so maybe writers can do something with him that doesn't... ya know, suck.
Not sure why he's on the same team as Starfire but HOLY SHIT ROY HAS BOTH HIS ARMS! Please oh please tell me the Retcon got Rise of Arsenal. Let something GOOD come from this mess of a reboot.
Batman Inc. is apparently continuing as well (at least as a Maxi-Series) so maybe it will get it's chance for proper conclusion.
Another thing is that there is a good chance the JLA team shown on the cover is only the team when they first formed the JLA. A new origin story being told before the current era. It would explain why Hal Jordan looks much younger while the other lanterns all remain the same age (seriously if we reboot them younger Kyle's going to be like... in his teens)
Dickwing is Uuuuuuuuuuugh BabsGirl is Uuuuuuuuuuuugh, and christ Batman is trying to out Wolverine as "Can whore himself out in comics" there are like 4 different ongoings with BRUCE as the hero minimum, then he's on both Justice Leagues, and we haven't seen all the titles yet
I'm with you Linkara - hell, I got into comics with 52.
There seems to be an unfair assumption that all "new" readers are idiots or stricken with severe ADD and can't understand anything that doesn't follow like a blockbuster action movie.
I just hope that they don't delete the multiverse and claim that this is Crisis On Infinite Earths all over again. I wants my Earth-2 godsdammit!
I won't bore you with how I got started in comics, but your show played a part.
I don't think a total universe reboot is needed, but more number 1s and less cross overs.
One thing that has been bothering me recently (and what got to me comment) is the multiverse. I'm reading Sinestro Corps War and it's good, but it goes a bit off the rails when it's on about the multiverse, the anti monitor (who has finger beams of sorts) and the like. As long as a story is self contained continuity doesn't matter.
To use sinestro corps again. Cyborg Superman is explained. So is sinestro. The anti monitor and superman prime aren't, and I only know about them at all from your show. That's a problem.
-Sabre
Barbara Gordon is Batgirl.
My ring just went red.
"tell good stories and the readers will come"
No they won't, the sorry state of the industry is proof of that
Writing good stories is useless if there is no-one to read them, and "word of mouth" isn't all that effective in getting people interested
You'd be surprised, but people are VERY easily scared of by continuity
I know people who refused to read comics, until I redirected them to something new with less than 20 issues (in this case it were {"Kick-Ass" , "Hero2" , and "Irredeemable"), after which they became loyal fans
The reason why the re-boot coincides with the new digital release policy is exactly because of this - the comics become more easily accessible both in terms of buying, and in terms of universal jumping-on point
Also, not everything will be erased
Damian Wayne and the alternate Lenterns are staying around.
Barbara Gordon returning was to be expected.
Dido let the Batman family and the Teen Titans go through allot of shit in his obvious attempts to bring her back
Turning Cassandra Cain evil to clear the spot, having Wendy and Marvin butchered, so that Wendy could take over the role of Oracle, and when the outcry was too loud, he settled for Stephanie Brown, since she could at least be made to look similar.
Now with a fresh start, he can finally have his way without having to become messy.
Really, it mostly resembles the old "throwing things on the wall and see what sticks" game
They come-up with new ideas and concepts over the years, and then re-boot it, with things that managed to crawl into pop-culture sub-conscience staying, and everything else never existing
Most of the people complaining about the changes don't even read most of these titles. (or any of them)
Bottom line: If thses comics were selling what they need to sustain the business, DC wouldn't change a thing.
As for back issues and old stories:
So you are telling me, Batman: Year One, DKR, The (original) New Teen Titans and the great work by Alan Moore and Grant Morrison are "worthless" now because of the current changes? yeeeeah. All you people who think that, please send me all of your old DC comics. I will happily re-read these stories.
I'll pay for shipping.
...yeah, i didn't think so.
In today's new sitcom, single-by-cosmic-retcon bachelors, Clark Kent and Peter Parker hook up with their suddenly-mobile-again gal pal, Babs Gordon! Let's watch the wackiness!
Thanks Linkara, you summed it up pretty well. Y'know, DC's continuity wouldn't be such a mess if they'd just stop futzing around with it!
And if they cancel Secret Six, we RIOT!
As usual, you're exactly right. Gotta say, though, it doesn't surprise me at all. DC(and Marvel and whoever else) is really just out to make money, and not much else. They'll tell good stories, insofar as it'll help their margins, but they'll also do a slew of #1 issues, again, to help their margins. Tree pulp publishing is a dying business no matter if it's newspapers, books or comics, and every publisher of tree pulp is looking with eagle eyes at their margins. Unfortunately, that tends to make for bad decisions. Trust me, I worked in it up to 2008 and am still peripherally involved.
"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it."
-- Peter David
I'm personally happy with DC's decision
I finally have somewhere to start
I'm already planning to pick-up Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Red Lanterns, Batman and Robin, Batgirl, Swamp Thing, Dark Justice League and Animal Man
And with the digital market it might not be that expensive!
I think this person described the situation pretty well, and why it's for the best
http://kuroi-tsuki.deviantart.com/journal/41198891/
Linkara
I normally agree with you, but what you are saying is total bullshit.
If you beleave that all the awesome stories written in the past are "worthless" just because they aren't in-continuity any more, then you were never a true fan to begin with - just a poor pretentious hipster.
Continuity does not matter, stories do.
You said it yourself.
The stories remain good no matter what continuity they are supposed to be in.
I'm currently meeting with tons of people who are happy about the reboot, and are seriously willing to jump on board.
People who previously only read manga, people who only knew the characters from TV and movies are asking me now for suggestions about which titles they should follow (I mostly direct them to writers with good track records)
Many people jumped on board of comic fandom ten years ago when Marvel launched the Ultimate line
Not it seems that the same is going to happen at DC.
Pandering to a bunch of aging, overweight, socially awkward men won't keep the industry alive.
The reason manga is doing so well is because they are self-contained stories with a beginning and an end.
And while I'm not that optimistic to believe that the titles will stay self-contained, or have a planned ending, at least now people feel that they have a beginning!
The current Young Justice cartoon has absolutely no connections to the Teen Titans cartoon, and yet people love them.
The franchise re-boots itself every time a new series starts (except for DCAU)
Are you saying that Batman TAS became worthless when The Batman started airing?
Why should comics be different?
I actually love the idea of there being a new story for each generation.
Re-use the stuff from previous versions that worked, erase what didn't (ehmcountdownehmcryforjusticeehm), and give the next generation their own stories.
"If you beleave that all the awesome stories written in the past are "worthless" just because they aren't in-continuity any more, then you were never a true fan to begin with - just a poor pretentious hipster."
No, I am a customer who has invested in a continuity and storyline that has gone on so far for a very long time. Of course the old stories are still there, but going on the theory that you stipulate here, that it's better to have an ending, let it be known that there ISN'T going to be a satisfying ending for many of these characters or their stories. Everything is ending in the event "Flashpoint," which from what I've read so far is pretty underwhelming.
And apparently you ignored the parts where I said I'll still check this out and freely admit that I might be wrong, that this may end up for the better. I'm not stupid - I see the positives in this, but it still FEELS like a betrayal of the longtime customers.
"Pandering to a bunch of aging, overweight, socially awkward men won't keep the industry alive."
Thank you for embracing a stereotype about comic book fans.
"The reason manga is doing so well is because they are self-contained stories with a beginning and an end. "
Manga does well because it's in an easily digestable format with good stories and a devoted fanbase with, again, good stories, which is what I said in the post anyway. And from what I can tell, plenty of manga STILL don't seem to have an ending, or if there are endings, some of them never make it to the United States and we're just as grumpy about it (WHERE. IS. STEAM. DETECTIVES. VOLUME. 9?!)
You are not going to believe this, Hawk and Dove drawn by Rob Liefeld.
http://io9.com/5809827/exclusive-dc-gives-us-a-first-look-at-the-new-teen-titans-legion-of-superheroes-and-more
Ah. Great... A reboot.
Call me when the rebooted storyline catches up to current events.
As somebody who would love to "know where to start" and "jump on" I would really rather get a big ass compilation book and start reading from there. In all honesty, which would sound more appealing to readers:
1) Pay a few bucks a month of a new issue with (if you like the story) nothing else to read after it.
or
2) Pay 20 to 40 bucks or so for years and years if not decades worth of material.
There is another word to use instead of "Reboot", and the word is "Retread".
Hey Linkara!
Call 90s Kid! Quickly!
His decade returned!
And it's pissed!
Em I right, Titans?
http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/images/articles/1307540734.jpg
"No, I am a customer who has invested in a continuity and storyline that has gone on so far for a very long time. Of course the old stories are still there, but going on the theory that you stipulate here, that it's better to have an ending, let it be known that there ISN'T going to be a satisfying ending for many of these characters or their stories. Everything is ending in the event Flashpoint, which from what I've read so far is pretty underwhelming."
An ending is wherever you stop telling a story
Just be satisfied with whatever ending the particular story had
I don't think anyone really will give a damn about all the padding and shitstorms that were going-on between these gems
This is why I think continuity is overrated.
Each writer should be able to start anew, while having access to all the concepts introduced by the previous writers.
So if someone messes-up and slaughters half of the roster in a stupid and pointless fashion, his successor may just completely ignore it.
While if someone introduces an awesome new concept or character, his successor would be free to use it, or ignore it if they don't like it (this way we would not have to deal with the pointless killing of younger characters to bring back the classic incarnation, or killing a seasoned hero to bring us his younger, hipper substitute)
The Silver Age was actually allot like this for the most part
And the thing with manga is that you at least know it will come to an end someday, and won't go-on long after you are dead
Naruto takes for ever, but it's actually nearing a conclusion
Oh, and about the stereotype
The majority of people who'm I've seen ranting about this recently seem to fit it to some degree
Most well-adjusted fans don't seem to get as passionate about it (at least judging from what I've seen)
As I watch this go on, I'm more and more confused.
Characters that, by rational basis, cannot exist without prior continuity are present. I have seen pictures of Kon-El, Tim Drake as (what looks like) Red Robin, Damien Wayne as Robin, Dick Grayson as Nightwing...
Hawk and Dove... are they RETCONNING Don Hall, or what the hell is going on?
This isn't a total reboot, it's the same thing they always do! SHENANIGANS!
I for one don't think paid shills and DC hirelings are leaving comments to try and balance out the negative.
I'm sure there's another reason that anonymous posts all over the internet are the only unbelievably positive ones about this tsouris.
The thing that sucks is if Lois and Clark aren't married. Like Kit and Diana, there is literally no one else for Superman(unlike spider-man).
That aside if it weren't for reboots, you wouldn't have the current version of wonder woman you seem to like(or I should say the previous).
Hal Jordan wouldn't exist, Barry Allen&Wally West wouldn't exist, The whole silver and bronze age wouldn't exist.
It'd be some weird continuity where the flash is still jay. Or it'd be some real life alternate reality where superheroes aren't popular and people read pirate comics(man that'd be weird).
Though I don't think its necessary at this time for them to reboot.
Excited about some of the possibilities of this, but upset that I'm losing my two favorite monthly pickups, Secret Six and Birds of Prey.
something you might want to read
http://www.steveniles.com/2011/06/a-creator-owned-call-to-arms.html
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