Monday, July 11, 2011

Rise of Arsenal #1-2




More melodrama than you can swing a dead cat at!



NOTE: If you're experiencing some kind of glitch or the like with the video, right-click on it and go into your flash settings. Go to hardware acceleration and switch it on. If it's already switched on, switch it off and then switch it back on again and it SHOULD fix the problem. I'm uploading the videos directly to Blip now instead of converting them to flash in the hopes of getting better quality out of the video.

98 comments:

Razorvine said...

I generally have cycles where I will be regularly picking up comic books and then I will go a few months, sometimes years, of completely ignoring them altogether.

It is story lines like this one that kind of do it to me.

Its tough reading stuff like this especially since these are characters whom I have special places in my heart for, who end up being written poorly and abused for no good reason.

harmonicajay said...

Just finished watching on blip. God almighty i hated this. Read it in a bookstore and hated the ending. Also, really tactful Roy to call out the death of the husband and son of one of your best friends as her fault and calling her a whore. Asshole. Why don't you point out to Kyle that his girlfriend was folded into a refrigerator because of him. Or point out that Alan Scott's son has mental issues and trouble controlling his powers to the point of nearly destroying a city, and call him a dirty homo. (Im not homophobic by the by). Or while your at it point out to Superman that the second Kryptonian Genocide was partly his fault. (I know it wasn't but he would probably say it just to be an asshole.)
By the by, have hope for DC. I don't blame the writers, except for Frank and Dan Didio. DC has great writers and great heroes. I am actually looking for to the Aquaman reboot with Geoff Johns working on it and hoping George Perez can do good for Superman. In the words of Saint Walker the Awesome: All will be well. Hopefully for GA and Roy.
Which comics are you looking forward to by the way?

deuxhero said...

Uh... won't she be restored with the full reboot?

marktg said...

I have to say the little faith with DC I had is damaged by something like this and with them relaunching every comic I'm no longer a DC reader. Will any thing from this year on-words the old stuff I still will

Anonymous said...

say linkara which is funnier in it's awfulness this or the doom comic?

Anonymous said...

I though you had lost it there for the first few seconds Linkara. That smile and laugh with how you were holding that comic reminded me of a sceen from Batman TAS that gave me nightmares as a kid...
Never do that again.

Also, make sure to turn the continuity alarm back on!

-M4A

Tyler Breuker said...

Don't know if anybody posted this yet, but side affects to pain medication varies from person to person and the type a pain medication it is. Even if the pills don't get rid of the pain in his arm he could still see hallucination (again depends on the medication) and still be a jerk (in which case he needs smack in the gut for the way he's treating the other characters who have their own baggage).

Xepscern said...

Oh, boy...

Look, I started watching Linkara with his HOPR series. I watch his comic reviews because I find them funny. While I want to get into them, I'm not a big comic book fan yet. Hell, the only thing I've seen Arsenal in was the Teen Titans show, and that was back when he was Speedy. So, my opinion might be wrong, but I'll give it.

Seeing Roy acting like a jerk is understandable. However, it's appoached horribly. Just when you have a powerfulm scene, silliness compounds the next one. It's like Ultimatum, but with an unecesary child death.

Mountain King said...

It's happened. They made it. A comic that destroyed Linkara. It took me longer than usual to assimilate this one. The problem is it's so close to being a good attempt. It did, at least, acknowledge continuity. Tried to deal with the death of his daughter and bring some sort of gravitas to this thing. The drug addiction, grief, uncontrollable anger and general attitude should have made this a good comic.

If you took a train-wreak, a head on collision between two F-1 cars and a plane crash, In the middle of Dresden, you might get something that bombed as bad as this thing. Prometheus was such a damp squib as a villain. There were plot holes that just couldn't be fixed, the writer had Harper push it far, far too much and over all in the wrong direction.

Although I do think that the hallucinations were triggered by the nano-whatevers in his stump.

From the sounds of things those mis-steps are only going to be magnified in the next instalment. Now I see, if handled correctly, nothing wrong with the death of his child. It's a perfectly valid plot point and something that has happened to lots of young families. Heck, it's happened in soap operas enough times that its a damn cliché. The thing is DC did not handle it correctly.

The company made a complete and total mess of it. I get the feeling that this was the result of editorial interference. Somewhere along the line the Editors in chief waded in, with business models and sales charts. Blindly making decisions against the writers better judgement. It just has that feeling that someone behind the scenes was pulling one way and someone else pushing the other.

Look forward to the next part, well looking forward might be a stretch Mortal dread might be more accurate.

Thomas

Vivi said...

Finally. Also, nothing further should be said about this wretched thing. Although the worst is yet to come. Oh boy.

CMWaters said...

OK, I don't know if other have sent information like this out to you yet and you just haven't approved the comment yet, so apologies ahead of time if this is a reposting.

The issue you have with the DC Heroes coming to Lian's funeral all in the attire...

...I don't have a problem with that, if you look at it from this perspective: They're uniforms.

Let's take a look at some real-world examples. When a police officer of family member dies in the line of duty or during a tragedy, the officers will wear their uniforms to the funeral. Same is true for military.

For a fictional account, look at Spock's funeral in "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn" (which you and the others of Channel Awesome recently parodied): everyone there was in their Starfleet Uniform.

There was also an ep of TNG where Crusher went to the home of a friend of the family or something for a funeral...she was in her dress uniform.

As for comics themselves...look no further than the "Funeral For a Friend" story arc: during the procession of Superman's casket, everyone was in their superhero outfits for that. Because, to them, they're like uniforms in themselves. This was even true BEFORE that comic story arc: the show "The Super Powers Team: Galactic Guardians" had the heroes in their outfits there.

So look at it as not goofy costumes in this respect, but as uniforms for soldiers in the war against crime and injustice.

...that's just my view on the thing though. I wouldn't mind your counter-argument if you have one.

dj1107 said...

Wait laughter? Why is there laughter in a review of a book you should hate as much as Cry for justice and the current Titan series?! I was expecting rage from you for a book like this it's Roy Harper the original Speedy and founder of the teen titans a group of heroes you know & love as much as I do for the JSA. but hey people have different reaction to books either that or you used up your rage points on Ultimatum. Speaking of JSA bit of a continuity error Damage is seen during the funeral when he should be dead this book should take place after Blackest Night (the time when he died.) Also Return of Lian Harper should be handled by me the guy who created NoName a superhero born on the Marvel earth and became a hero on the DC earth where Lian body is stolen taken to earth 616 to the leader resurrected and becomes NoName side kick Red hood (Based on her Kingdom come counterpart.)

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"So look at it as not goofy costumes in this respect, but as uniforms for soldiers in the war against crime and injustice.

...that's just my view on the thing though. I wouldn't mind your counter-argument if you have one."

And for the death of a superhero, that makes perfect sense... but Lian WASN'T a superhero. She was a little girl and while she was associated with them all, everyone but Roy dressing up in superhero attire for the funeral of someone who isn't a superhero and was just an innocent feels... wrong, like they're just going to go leave and go fight crime when this whole funeral stuff is done with.

There's just an etiquette to funeral-garb, is all I'm saying. Of course there isn't some official rule that people MUST follow, but it feels disrespectful to me, at least.

Anonymous said...

Huh, I'll have to take your word for how bad this gets, because I also agree that these first two issues weren't nearly as horrible as the material you normally review. :/

Luca_Raven said...

Lewis, first thing I have to say that I am a big fan, been one for years, though this is the first time I've actually commented on one of your reviews. I would like to add that they've helped me through some tough spots. The one thing I'd like to add is people can remove I.V. lines. That's the reason that stubborn patients in hospitals and in the back of ambulances sometimes have to be restrained.

CMWaters said...

"There's just an etiquette to funeral-garb, is all I'm saying. Of course there isn't some official rule that people MUST follow, but it feels disrespectful to me, at least."

I understand that point. But I must also ask these things:

1)How public was the funeral here?

and

2)Was Roy's ID public knowledge or not since Green Arrow had been arrested?

If the latter is a yes, then again, I pull up that example from an ep of Star Trek: The Next Generation. The funeral that Crusher went to in that ep was for someone who WASN'T a member of Starfleet, IIRC (admittedly, it has been a while since I've seen the episode), yet Crusher wore her Starfleet dress uniform.

If Roy's ID wasn't public knowledge by that point, then it does make less sense to my argument, I admit.

Elzarynn said...

A review with jokes instead of just ranting and raving! Not that your anger isn't justified, because it usually is. I've always sympathized with your viewpoints, and rarely disagreed with them. But there's been a drought of funniness on this show for a while, and it was starting to bring me down. It felt like every time it cut back to you on the futon, all you had to say was some straight-forward comment of what the comic was doing wrong, varying only in the degree of anger it was delivered with. This was a breath of fresh air, with all the great jokes and impressions. I look forward to more episodes like these. It's less fun if you're angry all the time.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"That's the reason that stubborn patients in hospitals and in the back of ambulances sometimes have to be restrained."

Really? I was under the impression that if they're not removed properly, there can be serious damage to the patient, including blood just starting to squirt everywhere.

Torkuda said...

Guess I should let you know, don't put this up if ya want, but actually, pulling out an IV IS possible. Pulling out tubes connected to a severed arm without causing hemorrhaging or some other form or internal damage or even massive external bleeding would probably be quite a feat, but removing an IV is usually just a matter of taking it out of your hand. I've had a car accident and had hernia surgery and in both cases, I could have pulled out my own IV at any time when I became conscious again, the doctors just recommended strongly against it until they were done. (Not sure, but I think in one case I actually pulled it out myself when instructed.)

harmonicajay said...

small request: could you do another bad mainstream Marvel comic next time? I know that may seem discriminatory (somehow) but I have noticed alot of the really bad event comics you have done are DC. Its just, I love DC and I like Marvel but I want people to know that both companies are equally capable of producing garbage to stop the Stupid "Whose' is bigger contest" between DC and Marvel and just show them that both are capable of doing good and bad. Just a request.

ShadowWing Tronix said...

CMWaters said:
"As for comics themselves...look no further than the "Funeral For a Friend" story arc: during the procession of Superman's casket, everyone was in their superhero outfits for that. Because, to them, they're like uniforms in themselves. This was even true BEFORE that comic story arc: the show "The Super Powers Team: Galactic Guardians" had the heroes in their outfits there."

Sadly, Super Powers Team, like Superfriends before it and Justice League after, barely acknowledged superhero identities. Also, they were burying Superman (or in the SPT episode sending him into the sun) and not Clark Kent. Lian wasn't known as Red Arrow's daughter, she was Roy Harper's daughter, his civilian identity.

That's one of my complaints with DC right now, and I don't expect the reboot to change it. The secret identity thing seems to be an annoyance to the writers and a lot of these events mean we rarely if ever see them being civilians unless they on downtime, like cops or soldiers at home who don't live on base.

Granted, how hard is to figure out who the other heroes in the Arrow family are once you learn who Green Arrow really is? Still, since we have no evidence of that connection, how does Roy Harper, civilian, net an appearance by a good chunk of the Justice League at his daughter's funeral?

For a comic funeral done right, check out Love & Capes: Ever After #5, the last issue of the mini-series. That's a romantic comedy about a superhero and his non-superhero wife and it's still better at portraying a hero funeral than DC or Marvel.

killthenrun1 said...

This is the kind of comic people will refer to when they say that comics are bad at reprasenting real life!

Jannet_Jazz said...

It's sad. Roy Harper as a recovering addict and as a single father was actually what made him such an endearing and (at times) inspirational character.

But DC had to screw it up.

Steve said...

...Ok, is Donna Troy just a magnet for garbage stories? Seriously, I have not heard of ONE comic in which she was involved that didn't crash and burn around her.

Matt said...

My favorite example of 'why doesn't EVERYBODY have this uber-tech' in the DCU comes to us from Judd Winick's Outsiders #17-18. They had a guest appearance by John Walsh as they were going to hunt kidnappers. The cameo is a little weird (don't you wanna call, I dunno, Batman?) but whatever.

The ultra-tech they use, though - to track the kidnapper they employ a special technique or gizmo that can take fingerprints off surfaces DAYS AFTER THEY'VE BEEN CLEANED. There is no mention of why the Outsiders do not give this miracle technology to EVERY LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY EVERYWHERE. It makes them out to be kinda pricks.

Luca_Raven said...

"Really? I was under the impression that if they're not removed properly, there can be serious damage to the patient, including blood just starting to squirt everywhere."

Serious damage can occur to the patient. One problem coming form that would be a air embolism occurring, which can be fatal. As for the blood squirting, since I.V.s go into veins, squirting really doesn't happen, at worse as far as bleeding goes your have a very persistent oozing. But that doesn't stop persistent and/or belligerent patients from trying to remove them. Especially if their mental status has been altered by drugs, pain, blood loss, or other outside means.

Torkuda said...

I just commented on the IV thing, when I realized you missed a huge error on the comic's side. Much bigger than your misunderstanding about IV, probably stemming from being a very lucky man. (You never had to visit the emergency room for your own body I'm guessing.)

Think about this, a lot of folks have realized that arms have no vital organs in them and so they assume that humans are like daddy long legs and you can just pull off our appendages one at a time. Um... you can pull one off with super strength or one hell of a cutting device, but actually, loosing an arm or leg normally causes instant shock or at least loss of coherent thought and often nigh instantaneous death.

If you're wondering how soldiers survive getting limbs blown off in combat... usually they don't. There is of course a science behind the matter. When your arm is severed, your blood vessels and muscles constrict and tighten to keep you alive. This however does NOT always happen, and can often only give you a few minutes before the muscles relax and you bleed out and die. In this situation, usually your only chance, save for some kind of a miracle, is someone getting to you with a tourniquet IMMEDIATELY. I guess there are also tales of people in the mountains cutting off their appendages to escape being stuck in the ice. This is possible because the ice freezes your nerves and allows you to operate on yourself so you can apply a tourniquet and the proper bandages yourself without going into shock.

In any scenario, when your arm is severed, no matter how "tough" you are, you don't just walk away acting like its the equivalent of being shot in the shoulder. (Which can hurt like hell I'm sure, but it really isn't the same thing.)

Anonymous said...

Going to your comment, Linkara, about aiming a bow and arrow...you're partially right. While the front arm does line up the shot, you need both arms to hold it steady enough to hit the target. Think of it like firing a shotgun.

Razorvine said...

Your completely right, there can be damage if not properly taken out. But patients taking them out happens way more often then you would think. And the horrible damage is usually caused by people who have completely lost it and are just ripping the dang things out without thinking about how they are doing it.

macloud said...

... and this is why i read manga.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"...Ok, is Donna Troy just a magnet for garbage stories? Seriously, I have not heard of ONE comic in which she was involved that didn't crash and burn around her."

The "Who is Donna Troi?" "trilogy" is actually pretty good - "Who is Wonder Girl?" "Who is Donna Troy?" and "Who is Troia?" spread out over several years are all good stories. The first is a basic mystery where Dick Grayson tries to find her family, the second was a post-Crisis story meant to rectify her origin story and introduces the Titans of Myth into her backstory, and the final one comes from my favorite run of the Titans, wherein she takes full claim of her identity.

Bigred0427 said...

Didn't this comic win some kind of reward for its depiction of drug abuse?

FugueforFrog said...

Hmmm...amazon-adventurer drug dealer that presumably dead...yeah, somehow I think he and Snowflame have an alliance in the great beyond somewhere.

I know the whole matter with Lian is still painful and some of it still comes through but it was still a very fun episode and really shows that DC just doesn't care about what makes chapters.

lilmaibe said...

Hope I didn't miss the question and possible answer in the previous comments but:

On the matter with the arm: Did I understood that correctly that only directly in the wound there are nanocterias and that, if they'd cut off more of the arm regrowing it just fine wouldn't be a problem?

Chris said...

Both hands need to work together to aim a bow. While the front hand holds the bow and points it in the general direction, the hand on the string also affects aim. If the string hand is held too far to the right, the arrow points left, and vise versa. Also, if he were to release incorrectly, which is likely when using metal fingers, he'd be horrendously inaccurate. It's difficult enough to let the string roll off of your fingers correctly when they're real, and I'd imagine doubly so when you have a robot arm.

Of course, there is a real story of an archer who lost his right arm, then just kept shooting with a custom-made prosthetic, so really, Roy's just being whiny.

Anonymous said...

Sadly still getting the glitches. From reading online, it seems that hardware accelaration doesn't work for some systems, and mine is one of them (probably because of its age.)

That kind of sucks.

Jyger85 said...

Oh boy. Just when I thought we'd seen the last of Cry For Justice...Do bad comics just not know when to die and leave us alone?! Is there no end to the pain they bring us?!

Oh, and I thank you for not showing those images of Lian. Based on what you said, I can gather that they are disturbing beyond measure.

Bundis said...

Damn, just... damn
They gabe Arsenal the "90's Aquaman" treatment.
Loosing his child and a limb, I wouldn't be surprised if Roy grew a hobo beard on the next issues.
No wonder why Linkara is pissed off with this stuff.
True, tragedy can make a character more interesting and deep but you need to know how to play that card.

panaminty said...

*long time viewer, first time commenter and all that*

As someone who has read this tripe more than once (for a school assignment--not because I wanted to), I just wanted to thank you for reviewing this miniseries. Words cannot even BEGIN to describe my hatred for this thing, especially since Roy has been a favorite character of mine for years. Seeing you rip it a new one is just fantastic. Not to mention hilarious. :)

Can't wait for the next part!!

Panaminty

Jesse said...

Roy reminds me of Superboy-Prime. They both have great reasons to feel horrible and sorry for themselves, but their dialogue and actions make them sound so whiny and unlikable. You could probably tell a non-comic fan they're related only through Count Down this and they might buy it. Roy sounds THAT whiny.

Not to sound callous but, why are you so mad about Lian's death Linkara? I remember what you said about her in C4J 5-7, but that doesn't seem like it would be enough to make such a emotional attachment to a character that never did much beyond being cute and adorable. Yeah, she broke Vandal Savage's finger once, but still.

I never saw much of her, so that may be why I don't see her appeal. I'm also pissed the heroes don't realize THEY caused her death (indirectly) with their mind wipes. If you think about it, almost ALL of the crap the heroes ahve gone through and continue to go through since then have had to do with the mind wipe sin some way.

If DC doesn't retcon Lian's death then they better retcon the mind wipes. Ruined 4/7 of the voting heroes, Superman for allowing it, and C4J ruined Hal and Oliver, and a lot of other things ruined Dinah.

Anonymous said...

I don't know much about firing a bow either Linkara. But I always got the feeling the stress of losing his arm AND DAUGHTER, were what screwed with his marksmanship. But yeah.....hmm, I might be the only one but I sorta wish they included some kinda angle with The Joker. Their two drastically different people, but both of them have been forever changed by a single bad day. It might've made for an interesting scene. Y'know?

Anonymous said...

@macloud:
I love most manga too, but you could easily do an equivalent show to this for every godawful manga that has ever afflicted the printed page. No medium is exempt from terrible writing, terrible art, or terrible continuity.

And while the endless shifting of stories from one writer to another can cause all sorts of problems in American comic books, it does mean that you can take a series away from someone who is driving it into the ground. If only we could do the same with, say, "Bleach."

boooratt said...

Wow, that was depressing still!

I know amongst everything else that's happened in the comic but I gotta bring up the fact wasn't half his face chard off by the computer screen thing? Shouldn't his face be damn near like Two-Face's or was that something they could heal him from apprently?

Ok, every one group hug at a child's funeral!

I read about the whole Green Arrow being arrested thing somewhere before and the joke was made about how did no one not figure out he was Green Arrow when he was Mayor (because like the jokes dealing with Superman's glasses and Green Lantern/Robin/every other character ever that choise to hide thier fae with a dollar store Zorror/Green Hornet mask) how could you not reconize his goatee!?

dnangel said...

I'm not sure if someone has said this or not but, Roy's pain may be more psychological than real pain, like House's. Not only is he in pain from his arm but from loosing his child and not being there when she died. His hallucinations would probably be a coping mechanism that his brain is telling him that none of this is real. Him imagining the drug dealer is his way of saying that he needs to cope and recover in his own way. Just saying...

PawnOfTheThree said...

Alrighty, having read through the comments to this point I didn't see anything regarding the painkillers but I gotta say Linkara, his popping the pills makes sense given his former addictions.

Roy saying that the painkillers aren't doing anything is in regards to the emotional trauma he has gone through. It is entirely likely the pills are in fact helping, but he has it in his head that they aren't.

The reasoning behind this is thus: As a former addict who fought the addiction off he knows what damage those substances can do. However he has to force himself to rule out the positive mental effects those same substances will bring. Namely, a haze through which he can't even remember he had a daughter.

Now, granted, some acknowledgement of this mentality from Roy would help explain this. Roy is carrying a lot of pain that he wants to be rid of. He wanted to get rid of it into Prometheus' face, but Ollie prevented that from happening.

So the dealer changes tactics. He encourages the useless knowing it will lead to an overdose and bring on a relapse. Odd thought, a hallucination changing tactics, but it can happen. A friend of mine has a subconscious that actively works against him in his dreams, preventing any moments of lucid dreaming from accomplishing anything. Odd, but not unheard of. Addiction is a powerful thing.

Anyway, the basic idea is that Roy is forcing himself to take the small stuff and suffer through the fact that it's not working anymore because he doesn't want to take a trip down the dark road again.

All of this said, I enjoyed your review of this and still agree that what happened in "Cry for Justice" was despicable. Although it makes me feel just a little tiny bit better that Roy Harper is just as pissed off about her death as I am.

Anonymous said...

I know you're not a fan of Identity Crisis, but you also have the precedent there of the superheroes dressing up in costume for Sue Dibny's funeral and, in universe, it's explained as a way to prevent others from learning their secret identity's.

Ebon said...

Couple of things, forgive me if someone's already mentioned them:
In archery, both arms are important. While the hand holding the bow does indeed do most of the aiming work, the hand holding the string and arrow also has to be kept totally unmoving and level. Also, unless that bionic arm has some kind of nerve hook-up, he's going to be breaking a lot of bows since he'll just keep pulling until the bow snaps.
Second, most heavy-duty painkillers (the kind that would be given to someone who, say, got his arm brutally cut off by a supervillain) contain opiates of some sort. Although it's not common, opiates can cause hallucinations (Samuel Taylor Coleridge is thought to have written "Kubla Khan" when inspired by such a hallucination), give you REALLY strange dreams and, when combined with the amount of stress Roy is under, it wouldn't be too surprising if he was teetering on the edge of sanity anyway.
By the way, you would not believe how easy it is to get hooked on narcotic painkillers. Trust me on this one.

Great review as always, although I'm really looking forward to next week's.

Ebon said...

BTW, I'm looking to start reading Titans. Any recommendations?

rdfox said...

I always thought Mia's name was pronounced "Mee-uh," like Mia Farrow?

Kari said...

I actually had sympathy with Roy this far into the series, even though almost everything he said made me wince. When tragedy strikes, real friends are the ones you still have when you're done being an ass.

What I can't forgive is Cheshire's outfit. I keep waiting for it to slide to the floor.

@deuxhero- We can hope. They haven't really said what their relaunch will entail. They've been pretty adamant about it not being a reboot, though.

日本文化のマニアック said...

er, for some reason my comment to maccloud went in as "anonymous." I think I didn't have the scripts on the page allowed, sorry.

Craig said...

Attending Lian's funeral, or Sue Dibny's for that matter, in full costume wouldn't actually protect their secret identities. It actually endangers those secret IDs since it draws attention to their connection to a civilian.

KrTellez said...

Didn't Chesire had a son with Catman from secret six? Does she has sons with everysingle person? Did I meissed something? Or is she putting franchises?

BoosterG said...

Stuff like this is why I have more Marvel in my pull list than DC. I'm honestly more of a DC fan, but Marvel just seems, I dunno, happier.

mst3kharris said...

The title had me hoping that the DC heroes were all just going to become really big soccer fans. Oh well.

Roy is lucky Dinah didn't sock him for that "You don't know what it's like" crack.

Here's what's puzzling me: why in the name of little green apples are they letting Roy out of the hospital to live alone? They know he's an addictive personality and they're letting him isolate himself with painkillers? What part of this seems like a good idea? (Also, I thought he was hooked on IV drugs like heroin or something. Shouldn't the Leprechaun of Addiction he's hallucinating be offering him smack?)

I have a sinking feeling that if DC is rewinding time for their "not-a-reboot" reboot, Lian is not only going to stay dead, she's going to get written out of continuity.

I just realized: if Lian was Roy's and Cheshire's daughter, that little girl Dinah gave up was Lian's half-sister. Way to be an even bigger douche than previously noted, Roy.

GhostNPC said...

Still getting that graphical error. Looks like textures separating from eachother... turns into something that looks fingerprint-esque. Driving me insane. Hope that this doesn't persist... I've been watching you for years now, I hope this doesn't mean the end.

Werezilla said...

This is especially sad considering the scene in the morgue reminds me of a similar scene in Alien 3 when Ripley goes to see Newt's body another young girl who died abruptly for no good reason other than plot connivence.

Do I hate Newt's death as much as Linkara hates Lian's? I dare to say I hate it more.

Starman said...

For those who were curious about the companion piece to this book - The Fall of Green Arrow - and how they stack up, I thought I might offer links to my commentary on those issues.

http://looking2dastars.livejournal.com/172188.html

http://looking2dastars.livejournal.com/172296.html

http://looking2dastars.livejournal.com/178633.html

Starman said...

To answer some of the question I saw in the comments...

I agree with CMWaters - In the DCU, wearing a costume to a funeral is perfectly acceptable for a superhero. There's plenty of stories one can site precedent, but my picks would be JSA #1, where the whole team were in costume for Wesley Dodds' funeral and Green Lantern #81 - The Funeral Of Hal Jordan. And even though Lian wasn't an official hero, she saw more combat than your average civilian (Anyone know how many times she was kidnapped across the course of Green Arrow, Teen Titans, Titans and Outsiders?), expressed an interest in being a hero someday and once broke Vandal Savage's thumbs. I figure she's worthy of honorary superhero status for that last one alone.

@ShadowWing Tronix - Secret Identities in the Green Arrow family are something of a sore point with me. The short version is that yes - depending on the writer, they've gone back and forth on just how open Oliver Queen, Roy Harper and Connor Hawke's identities are.

Blame Brad Meltzer's "Archer's Quest", where Ollie suddenly had a secret identity to protect despite Ollie's obituary on the front page of The Daily Planet identifying him as Green Arrow being a major plot point in Kevin Smith's "Quiver".

Even before that, it was suggested that Roy had an open identity. At the very least, he made no effort to conceal his job from the string of babysitters he hired to watch Lian while he was "on duty" in his mini-series by Devin Grayson.

@KrTellez - Yes, Cheshire also had a child with Catman in the pages of Secret Six. No, she is not franchising - it was something she was implied to have done in order to get another child to train as an heir, having given up on Lian, apparently. Mind you, Cheshire's portrayal has been all over the map, with Gail Simone portraying her as a calculating assassin in BoP and Secret Six and her relationship with Roy being portrayed as cordial in Brad Meltzer's JLA.

Ming said...

Rise of Arsenal . . . Oh, boy, they should have called this "The Fall of Roy Harper," because that is what it is -- Harper's descent into his own pit of insanity. I have nothing against J.T. Krul (he's got a great run on Teen Titans and Green Arrow), but I can't help but wonder: WHY? It's bad enough we have to deal with those horrific images from Cry for Justice and Lian Harper's death and maybe this could have been a compelling character study . . .

BUT this became one of the most hated comic books EVER because, by the end of the series, this series will make Roy what Emerald Twilight made Hal Jordan into.

I'm so glad you're doing this hated series. I think it was a good call not to show those images of Lian. It would not have been pleasant for everyone who had to see those images from Cry for Justice. Personally, I think your genuine rage against that series may have enhanced your rendition of an angry, grief-stricken Roy.

Can't wait for the last half of this despicable series.

Saidi from tunisia said...

you know , I kinda have the same reaction when reading Messiah complex ,basically same shit happened to Bishop, he had his complete backstory crapped upon to make him Cable's enemy ( while he has little to do with Nathan, Cable is from the main timeline, Bishop came by accident & is a chronal anomaly who happened to save their ungrateful butts from the Age of Apocalypse) & they rip his right arm for good measure, Thanks Marvel, oh & they slaughtered Cable's golden potential to become an A-lister just so they can off him along with Nightcrawler , you know because likable characters that could be key part of the mythos or that are polyvalent are for dorks while douchebags & jerks are the norm!

Also I agree with you on Rose Wilson! the thing is that Deathstroke works for me only as a punchclock villain, not at the big bad! you would answer Judas contract? but the thing is that it was personnal & by the end I felt that his business with the Titans was over!Meltzer & Johns (both earning a Hack distinction for Identity crisis &Teen Titans & the rampaging silver age fetish that has chased me from DC) having a crush on him decided to overuse Slade ,making him really sour & horrid nowadays.So yeah Rose becoming Slade Jr is a bad move...

Quite Honestly, I 'm not that big on the titans, I'm more of a young Justice kind of crowd because mostly of IMPULSE & KON-EL!The titan i may hate the most is kid flash! srsly they killed bart”awesome” allen the one & only impulse so johns & didio replace him by fucking kid flash! & fuck johns’s superboy, kon-el is the clone of westfield not luthor, YA HEAR ME! WESTFIELD! Kesel said it & what he says about superboy is law! Karl Kesel is GOD when it comes to SUPERBOY! TACTILE TELEKINESIS FTW BAYBAY!)

Anyway you deserve a treat after reading such dreck so check this out
http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d3kmz04

& http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d3kowuc

For those are the epic threats that deserve better writing, characters of such magnitude must never be jobbed!( hope you like Lewis, leave an opinion if you can)

Will we get to Identity crisis soon?

Octo7 said...

Unfortunately the Glitch isn't being fixed by your recommended tinkering. I noticed this glitch on your last video as well, never happened before. Great review BTW, despite the visual glitches.

Green Ninja said...

You know, I'm not reading that much DC, only Gotham related stories, but thanks to you I really get to see all the bad stuff. So thanks for that. I have a few questions though:

1. Is there a GOOD story with Prometheus? From what I can gather, he's actually an interesting villian. Sort of a mirrored Batman. I'd love to read something with him that doesn't suck.

2. This would probably take too long to explain, but what's the problem with Green Arrow and Black Canary getting married? As far as I know those characters always had a thing for each other. Not just the comics, but the DCAU as well. And then there was the GA short film, the came out last year.

3. You think they could use the DC reboot to fix One More Day as well... oh wait, wrong universe. Damn!

;)

Ryu Sensei said...

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I disagree with you about the costumes at the funeral. Several of the characters (Cyborg, Red Tornado, etc) Aren't able to remove their "costumes" and others like Dr. Fate would be unrecognizable to the reader in civilian mode. I can imagine that the superhero community has an unspoken (or even spoken) rule that, for the sake of secret identities, either everyone is in costume or nobody is.

Also, I am an archer and the prosthetic limb SHOULD be giving Roy problems . . . but not those shown in the comic. Yes, the arm holding the bow is responsible for aiming while the arm drawing the bow provides the power (although I'm guessing DC archers use a hunter's style where both arms push/pull to evenly distribute the work done by the muscles).

If the new arm provides super strength, then it's more likely that he would snap the string or bury the arrow too deep in the target. Also, since if he has no sense if touch in the new arm, that could cause aim problems, but I'm guessing it's the drugs.

Kyle Voltti said...

this and all the other drek that has been inflicted upon DC since Identity Crisis can be chalked up to one fact in my mind and that that Dan Didio wants, desperately, to be the editor at Marvel. and if he can't be the editor of Marvel he'll do his damnedest to make DC just like Marvel......

TimeTravelerJessica said...

I can understand Roy getting mad at Mia but the stuff he said to Dinah and Donna ... holy moley. Someone should have hit him in the face for that! When he says Donna was busy "whoring it up" with Kyle when Robby died, was he referring to her chasing after the AU Ray Palmer in Countdown or something else, I'm not sure on my timeline with that? Because if he's referring to the whole Ray Palmer thing that was, you know, her doing her job. As a superhero. Just like he was when Lian got killed. Besides, Robby and Donna's husband died in a car crash, what was she supposed to have done about that? Is he honestly calling her a whore just because she didn't die in the car with them? And isn't Roy adopted himself? (I don't know a terrible lot about Green Arrow/Red Arrow in case that wasn't obvious.) Shouldn't he know that Dinah loved her little girl just as much as if she were her own "flesh and blood"? Grief makes you say awful things, but this is just ... Terrible.

Anonymous said...

I never have understood why you don't usually talk about the covers, when you're reading from the trade paperback. A lot of trades I have include the covers at least somewhere in the book, and even if they don't it's not difficult to google it, in order to mention it. It's always bugged me, for some reason.

Anonymous said...

Booster G said:

"Stuff like this is why I have more Marvel in my pull list than DC. I'm honestly more of a DC fan, but Marvel just seems, I dunno, happier."

....wat.

No seriously, what?

I'm not saying DC is fun and happy, but fucking post-Civl War/Secret Invasion/Dark Reign/Siege Marvel...."happier" than DC?

What?

Watwatwatwatwat?

I'm sorry, this is not computing for me at all.

Anonymous said...

No, no. What Doctor Midnight meant to say was that the razor discs were covered with marmite. That caused the infection onset.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"I never have understood why you don't usually talk about the covers, when you're reading from the trade paperback. A lot of trades I have include the covers at least somewhere in the book, and even if they don't it's not difficult to google it, in order to mention it. It's always bugged me, for some reason."

The idea behind comic book covers is to allure a reader into seeing it, being intrigued, and then to buy it to know what's contained within.

However, when I'm reading from the trade collection of the book, the cover is irrelevant because most people buy trades so they don't need to have the single issues anymore, or because they heard a storyline was good and they want to pick it up. The cover for a collection of several books is irrelevant, and even though the covers of the books might be inside, they're not the deciding factor of buying it.

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"1. Is there a GOOD story with Prometheus? From what I can gather, he's actually an interesting villian. Sort of a mirrored Batman. I'd love to read something with him that doesn't suck."

Grant Morrison's JLA run that introduced him showed him as a competent, logical villain with a great backstory and defeating him was done cleverly.

"2. This would probably take too long to explain, but what's the problem with Green Arrow and Black Canary getting married? As far as I know those characters always had a thing for each other. Not just the comics, but the DCAU as well. And then there was the GA short film, the came out last year."

The idea of them getting married is not itself a bad thing, it was just handled really, REALLY poorly.

FugueforFrog said...

Reading over some of the comments on this thread, I think one thing I noticed is why people seem to wonder about why there is such a problem with killing off Lian. To me, the biggest problem is both the biggest strength and weakness in Western comics of this type: this "collective storytelling" where writers over decades come and go and shape these characters to their will. The good of this is that it allows for new interpretations and for characters who are obscure to rise up with great usage and storytelling. On the other hand, the bad is that things can change at some writer or editor's whim leading to something that could work getting scrapped because someone wants to do something stupider. Mind you, killing off a little girl is not as "F*** you" as "One More Day", but it just feels like a character that so many have attached to for such a long period of time and have become part of the collective story that so many actually appreciate just is offed to add more shock value and power to some terribly-used villain in a horrible story like "Cry for Justice". Sadly since she is a civilian and not a hero (and not even a significant civilian), her potential of being resurrected after this dreck is slim to probably minimally none. Maybe some writer would throw a bone and find a way to bring her back and fix it...but who knows if or whether it will happen.

The other thing I have to bring up is this: somehow trying to make these "heroes" stay in uniform 24/7 feels so much like a pet peeve to me. It just feels like a cop-out that so many comic characters, both in DC and Marvel, can't have lives outside saving the day...and even if they do they can't even have background characters or others to interact with. I bring this up to sort of link it to Lian in a way: even if she's been in danger quite a few times, Lian is a link to Roy having a normal, civilian life outside the hero stuff. She gives him something other than fighting crime and supervillains...and thus taking her away seems to reduce said burden and therefore reduce the humanness, preventing him from being more relatable.

(heh, I usually don't post a second time but these things had to be said)

boooratt said...

This is like the worst use of "Woman in Refrigerator Syndrome" I've seen in awhile!!! You?

shikome kido mi said...

Wait, how did they arrest Green Arrow for murdering some guy in a pocket dimension and leaving the body there? I suppose he shouldn't have walked off with his arrow in the corpse but who gets jurisdiction? How did the local police even find out about it?
Maybe Fall of Green Arrow covers it, I can't bring myself to read that in order to find out.
I get the impression the writers didn't really think a lot of stuff through and that's why we get all these events where the details don't match up. Not just the Green Arrow is arrested bit but Arsenal inexplicably having an intact house. It's like things only have those consequences which are convenient to the plot, regardless of whether they should have other ones in addition or instead.

_JM_ said...

"When he says Donna was busy "whoring it up" with Kyle when Robby died, was he referring to her chasing after the AU Ray Palmer in Countdown or something else, I'm not sure on my timeline with that"

Rather earlier, and perhaps even less justified. Shortly after Kyle got the ring he moved to New York. He had planned to move there with his girlfriend Alex and decided that he still would after her death. Partially because he wanted to show her that he could keep his promise to be more responsible and be a hero and partially because his friends and especially her parents hated him for missing her funeral.

Shortly after Kyle moved to New York he was mind controlled into attacking the Titans. Problem was solved and Kyle joined them. And to give some idea of the timescale Alex’s death was fresh enough in Kyle’s mind that when he fell asleep on monitor duty in Titans Tower he woke up to a green ring creation of Alex… and it was Donna Troy who helped him unpack his boxes in his new apartment. When she mentioned she had been Wonder Girl he admitted to having had a crush on Wonder Girl because she was cute… Donna asked “was?”… and things slowly developed.

So Kyle is still grieving for Alex and slowly… as seen by Roy Harper, who was Arsenal then and LEADER of the team they were BOTH members of… Kyle and Donna became closer. He was paranoid about getting close to anyone after what had happened to Alex but it developed and she helped him get over things. Kyle met Donna’s son and took him to the Zoo once. Kyle was with Donna when she got the phone call that her ex-husband and her son had been driven off the road and were dead. Kyle wanted to help her through her grief like she had his but Donna left him to grieve alone.

So yeah. “Whoring it up with Kyle Rayner” actually equals “helping him through his grief and this developing into a long term relationship only ended by the tragedy of her son and ex-husband’s death… which I know because you were both members of the Titans under my leadership at the time.”

Ray Harper. Making you feel that there is a hyphen missing in Arsenal after the fourth letter and wondering why they spelt ‘hole’ n-a-l.

Katherine said...

Man, Roy, you’re really making it hard for me here. I really felt sorry for you, with your life and sanity being destroyed beyond all measure at the hands of cruel and capricious writers. The loss of your daughter and the loss of your arm are agonies that nobody should have to endure.

But, like Heathcliff in “Wuthering Heights,” you quickly moved to destroy all sympathy that I had for you. First, by snapping at Dinah and basically saying that biological children are worth more than adopted children. Because, you know, it’s not like adoptive parents actually raise their kids and bond with them and take care of them, like parents do with their biological children. That kid didn’t come forth from Dinah’s loins, so she’s worthless.

Second, by trying to strangle Mia. Yes, I know that you weren’t thinking straight and it was the grief talking, but it’s one thing to yell at her and it’s another to try to *kill* her. What if you had accidentally snapped her neck right then and there or had strangled her?

Third, by insulting Donna like that. Yes, it was totally her fault that her kid died. Misery loves company after all, so if you have to suffer over the loss of your child, then bring up her child’s death as well, so that she can suffer along with you. Oh, and sadistically make her feel even worse by insulting her and crowing that you were a better parent because she wasn’t around for her kid. Gee, guess who wasn’t there when Lian was killed? *You.* So, I guess that that makes you nothing more than a cheap hooker, too. You were just messing around with Prometheus; you weren’t there for Lian! It’s all your fault! See, writers, I can hit below the belt, too.

So, yeah, sorry, Roy. I’ll be rooting for Cheshire now, as she beats the living daylights out of you.

Anonymous said...

I liked Green Arrow and Black Canary decent Judd Winick and AWESOME Cliff Chiang art.

But the climax to this series is awesome!

Charlie Brooks said...

It's worth noting, especially going into the conclusion of this miniseries, that this thing won an award for a realistic depiction of drug addiction and mental illness.

I'll say that again, with caps for emphasis. This comic WON AN AWARD for a REALISTIC depiction of drug addiction and mental illness. Obviously, the folks giving out the award have no idea what drug addiction or mental illness really looks like, but keep that in mind as we careen toward the "China cat" incident.

greg said...

The scene in the prison reminds me of BSG:
Anders: What do we do not captain?
Starbuck: Fight 'em til we can't.

Charlie Brooks said...

Wait, how did they arrest Green Arrow for murdering some guy in a pocket dimension and leaving the body there?

Don't know how they arrested him, but I know that his trial ended with the jury finding him innocent, while Ollie himself wanted to be found guilty (why he didn't just plead guilty, we'll never know). Then the judge, after saying he was tempted to overturn the jury's decision (can't happen in an American court), sentenced him to be exiled forever from Star City despite the fact that he had not been convicted of any crime.

DC comics apparently doesn't like writers or editors who do research.

BigMadDraco said...

Also, legally you cannot use exile as a punishment in the United States.

JLH said...

Aww, I was hoping for 90's Kid's rockin' out version of "Breakfast at Tiffany's" to be played this week.

Jarkes said...

Random: I've been thinking of reading your webcomic, Lightbringer, for a while, but I have a problem. You've said time and again that "early Lightbringer sucks," so I was wondering: at which point in the comic should I begin reading so that I can avoid the parts that suck?

Also, is the name "Lightbringer" a reference to Final Fantasy?

Starman said...

@Green Ninja - This would probably take too long to explain, but what's the problem with Green Arrow and Black Canary getting married? As far as I know those characters always had a thing for each other.

The problem is that while they had a history together, it hasn't always been a good history. Here's the short, short version.

1. The two began dating again after Ollie came back from the dead in Quiver. At the end of the Kevin Smith run, it hadn't been said outright they were an item again.

2. In Brad Meltzer's "Archer's Quest", Dinah was depicted as not being nearly as into Ollie as hew as into her, preemptively cutting off his attempt to propose to her. The dialogue suggested the two were dating - but still not exclusive.

3. Judd Winick takes over Green Arrow and has Ollie have a sudden impromptu affair with Black Lightning's niece... despite the fact that nothing had indicated he and Dinah were dating exclusively. (Also, Jefferson Pierce was supposed to be an only child and thus couldn't have a niece... but that's a whole other can of worms regarding Judd Winick's failure to do basic research.) This causes Dinah and Ollie to break up... because Judd thinks Ollie is more interesting single.

4. As sales on Green Arrow plummet the longer Winick's run goes on, DC decides to win the long-time fans back with a big wedding event.

5. The problem is that the two characters hadn't had any interaction in several years worth of stories and what stories they had been in together were horribly inconsistent. For isntance, Gail Simone had the two make their peace in Birds of Prey while one JLA story depicted them as being outright hostile to one another.
Still, Judd did write the two getting back together like the good soldier he is... though Dinah was portrayed as a totally incapable bimbo.

shikome kido mi said...

Well, given the comments of Charlie Brooks and BigMadDraco, I can now rest assured that the police probably had no evidence and just arrested Green Arrow for the heck of it, as that would be on par with DC's apparent understanding of the legal system (seriously, not even understanding you can plead guilty is insane).

Anonymous said...

Coming from an opiate dependent (2 years) addict I don't shoot Heroin but rather take pharma "painkillers" like Oxycodone which is fairly popular. My drug of choice is Fentanyl. I'm currently trying to detox and am using some Tramadol to help ween and make it so my head doesn't feel like its been shredded and every organ aches. Anyways, the point is taking opiate-baseed "painkillers" is essentially the same thing as the traditional Heroin, after all, Heroin used to be sold as a painkiller by your friends at Bayer, makers of Aspirin and Zyklon B (used to gas Jews during WWII). Kids, don't get hooked on opiates. It's no fun coming down. PS. the guy was taking capsules and not a solid pill which generally means it's a time release formula which means that it's near impossible to snort or shoot and also doesn't provide a proper rush when swallowed. --Day 4 of detox

Volvagia said...

Marvel comics that have had a strong sense of humour: She-Hulk. Nextwave. Howard the Duck. Not Brand Ecch.

DC: Vertigo (And even that has only one or two humour titles.) If anyone can prove otherwise that there are DC stories that are humorous (without being unintentional), I'd love to hear otherwise, but I haven't heard of any.

So: Mainstream Marvel Universe is probably the brighter of the two, though both companies are VERY dark.

Starman said...

Two Words: Secret Six.

Anonymous said...

So bad, it's good, hmm? I can't remember the last time you did that.

... A Cry for Justice tie in... Oh joy ... oh bliss... AND it's about the aftermath of one of the more questionable elements from that story... Ugh... Off to the next part then.

Fiery Little One

SSJWolverine said...

Two things.

1. If you have any compassion for Roy after he called Donna a whore, congratulations, you are now a member of the Indigo Squadron.

2. After doing some research, I found out that Fall of Green Arrow is not a miniseries, but rather an event in the Green Arrow books.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe no one's said this yet. It's a wonder Roy's arrows are flying straight at all. He's got the arrowhead positioned on the wrong side of the bow.

Denise Turner.

Anonymous said...

Hello, Linkara and anyone who reads these comments.

I apologize for wasting your time with the comment directly above. My statement above is utterly incorrect.

I rewatched the video last night to show it to my husband, and I noticed that I had misinterpreted the image of Roy's arrow placement. I'm not sure how this happened, but it probably has something to do with the fact that I haven't pulled a bow in several years.

Anyway, I'm very sorry for wasting everyone's time, for wasting space on a comment that never should have been posted, and for potentially adding to the vast amount of misinformation on the internet.

These are the kind of things that make you wish there was an undo function for reality. ;)

Keep up the good work, Linkara, and thank you for regularly amusing me.

Denise Turner.

Anonymous said...

Hey Linkara, I'm kinda confused with something you brought up in your review. It's about the marriage between Green Arrow and Black Canary. I don't know a whole lot about comic book history, but I was always under the impression that those two were one of the most well known comic book couples. Given that, what would no one be on board with the two getting married? Isn't that something fans would see coming, and doesn't that show character development whcih you say is important in comics?

Lewis Lovhaug said...

"Hey Linkara, I'm kinda confused with something you brought up in your review. It's about the marriage between Green Arrow and Black Canary. I don't know a whole lot about comic book history, but I was always under the impression that those two were one of the most well known comic book couples. Given that, what would no one be on board with the two getting married? Isn't that something fans would see coming, and doesn't that show character development whcih you say is important in comics?"

The problem isn't necessarily them getting married, but the manner in which it was all written.

The lead-up to it was brought about in the main Green Arrow book and made her seem like she couldn't handle herself properly in a fight, Green Arrow then gave up her adopted daughter without her consultation, the marriage issue itself tried to be sly and witty but was just cliched and annoying, then leading into a fakeout death of Green Arrow before they got a book together (as part of the nonsense involving Countdown), then eventually written as completely incompetent with powers she had had for YEARS at this point.

Simply put, marrying them wasn't a bad idea, it was just executed so horribly that people preferred to sweep it under the rug and forget it ever happened.

Anonymous said...

"The problem isn't necessarily them getting married, but the manner in which it was all written....Simply put, marrying them wasn't a bad idea, it was just executed so horribly that people preferred to sweep it under the rug and forget it ever happened."

Okay. Thanks for clearing that mess up. Think they'll fix it in the reboot?

Anonymous said...

Just so you know i do archery a lot and your aim IS affected by the bow string while the majority does rely on your bow hand, even a slight twitch on the string will affect your shot. However the points of it helping him are quite fair and make perfect sense.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure if you've heard of the animated cartoon network show Young Justice, but aside from it being excellent they also have brought in Lian. So in a way DC did bring her back... Just not in comics.

Anonymous said...

The Shade helped Green Arrow find and get to Prometheus in the Justice League: Rise and Fall Special.