Red Hood and the two other characters who get screwed over.
Monday, April 14, 2014
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168 comments:
Patton Oswalt's blog photo shows my exact feelings! WTF???
I'm sure the phrase "DC Comics: Bad at Math" will be a new meme for this show!
I can probably explain why issue 6 comes before 1 in the trade (though it's more of a theory).
1.It makes more sense story wise to put it first since it takes place before issue 1 and randomly jumping to the past in the trade might read awkwardly.
2. It makes a much better impression than the actual first issue. Regardless of personal opinion, it has stronger character bits to it that could do a much better job of introducing the characters and actually making you like them (more so than the first issue, which kind of stinks at its job, even if you knew nothing about the characters' previous history).
At least, that's how I see it. I bought the trade awhile ago and reading it with the 6 issue first made a much better impression to me for the series. Despite it's problems, it's kind of fun in its own crazy and insane way until the Death of the Family tie-in later on (where the artwork goes incredibly south).
That tank joke was funnier the first time I heard it - in Road Rovers. Where the the character warning the other of tanks had a thick Russian accent. I'd still rather watch that horrid TMNT ripoff than watch this.
Personally i would've gone with this song for the review: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o
You've ranted more than enough about the New 52 (not that I have a problem with that). Do you have an opinion on the Marvel Now relaunch? There seems to be no editorial problems (many DC writers like James Robinson went back to Marvel), there doesn't seem to be anything offensevily bad, and I can't think of any major contreversies (except maybe Superior Spiderman, but thats over).
*sigh* I read the ENTIRE run of this series so far (in the store) and I gotta say, when Jason Todd is the most... (relatively) likable character, then you have a major issue! Between Roy being immature and obnoxious to the point where the Trickster would tell him to lay off, and Starfire being a murderous sex toy, Jason's "oh woe is me, I HATE YOU BATMAN" schtick is almost a welcome distraction.
But the other problem is with all the mystical mumbo-jumbo stuff with the All-Caste, it just really doesn't work with Jason (magic usually doesn't work with the Bat-Family in general) and the idea that Jason is some sort of "chosen one" is absolutely laughable. Like you said he works best as a villain, and in my eyes, the character became irredeemable when he tried to kill the other Robins thinking that HE was the real heir to Batman's legacy...HA!
Hey Lewis when are you going to review Teen Titans:Graduation Day Comic?
Ummmm... Yeahhh
There's nothing wrong with having a female character be a flirt,or even be open about sex but to give her no direction & have her be no more than a souless,pin up model with a few speech bubbles, no, no no, NOOOOO!!!!
Taking a established character in a new direction is fine, but try to be creative, or at least be intelligent about it. *Looks at DC*
Also only having polls taken by one section of the comicbook fanbase just so you can have your own way with the product??
You know what I may have to look into this Domecracy thing people keep taking about, because really? If they read comics and are fans ask them for input about your product don't ignore them, just because they're not a apart of a certain age group,gender, or etc.
Plus I enjoyed the DC Comics bad at math segment.
Good episode, you really analyzed it quite well, especially the controversy surrounding the comic and the behind the scenes horrors that are occurring at DC.The company seriously has gotta get its act together.
As for Jason, well...I think people were always too harsh on him and had a kind of knee jerk reaction to him because he was meant to replace Dick, and they've never really gotten over it. I think he could work as an antihero or maybe an antivillain type character if you show him as a kind of foil and parallel to Batman, do what Grant Morrison did. Have him take a sidekick, lose himself in powerful imagery, but execute justice harshly and more bluntly, which has him and Bruce conflicting with each other over which approach truly is best for Gotham, perhaps even the world.
Or if you want him to be more likable, then why not have him try to do what Batman did to him: take in kids off the streets to try and hone their skills for good, DC? At least then there could be an bit of "realness" to him, we could see him trying to abate a real issue in America: the terrible future of many who are forced to live on the streets, without homes and without hope. At least with that there could be a connection drawn between his old life and his work. He could help the people that fall through the cracks.
But the sad thing is, even when there are issues that make Todd seem more relatable and likable (I rather liked the court of owls crossover), it has a pall hanging over it: what they've done to Roy and Starfire, especially Starfire. If there wasn't that miasma of "you done f--ked up" hanging around those two characters and how they've been crafted for the new 52, we could forgive a lot from this comic series.
I can only think of one comic that makes men pose in revealing clothing more than women: the manga Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Everyone does riduculous anatomically impossible poses to the point its become a meme. Male characters often end up shirtless or wearing revealing clothing to show off their muscles, one of the male characters even has what can be best described as a boob window . Its very popular among female audiences in Japan, especially now that its got an anime.
It really is a shock to me this comic is still going on(Jason is still a very unconvincing anti-hero, Roy is still annoying as hell and no one knows why Kori is still hanging around with them or even on earth for that matter).
btw, things got so bad with the teen titans book that it's already being renumbered and given to a new creative team(i should be more happy that Lobdell is gone from the book but he pretty much ruined Tim drake and Wonder girl as likeable characters)
I don't think D.C cares about who there aiming for. Its just a slap at the face for anyone who watch the Teen Titans cartoon when they were kids (my self included.) They don't care who there aiming for, so long as there aiming for someone.
DC made a sham poll so the demographics would match young men and exclude everyone else. That's just ridclious because as we all know comicbooks are for 45 years old.
Oh, Moses! The portrayal of Starfire here just sickens me!
They are not even TRYING to be subtle about whether or not she is just something that immature teenagers to spank off to!
They way she bends ovr Harper there (in a bend that would break the spine, alien or not) and then gazes at the reader as she asks; “You want to do me!?”
DC! If you want to make pr0n, just make pr0n!
How shallow she is too. She has no personality outside of wanting to screw anything and then having no memory afterwards. Well Done, DC! You have just insulted your Female Readers; but of course, you don’t cre about that, because you rigged a poll to say “Only Immature Teenage Boys Read Comics” and ignore anyone else that says otherwise!
Tell me! Does ANY Female in the Real World actually act like this!? Not to my knowledge!
Still, Good Review, Linkara.
Look forward to the next review.
Oooh, Boy. Athena next?
Was the theme of Comics that objectify females intentional or accidental?
Lewis, I've got to commend you on being the vocal opponent to the misogyny and male chauvinism in superhero comics that you are. Like you, I'm a white, heterosexual male who thinks of himself as a feminist. As a fan of American superhero comics, however, it's impossible to tolerate some of the garbage being published, junk like the book you just reviewed, and I can't believe that some of these crude, lowbrow writers continue to get work on big, triple-A titles.
In our community, one that is dominated by white, hetero male readers, it's easy to feel ostracized whenever you point out the continuing disparities between the sexes still being perpetuated by our favourite medium. It's heartening to see you continuing to wave the flag of equality, even as so many of our fellow comic fans seem to enjoy this writing or simply don't give it a second thought. Whenever I've pointed out my own disgust with the awful writing and characterization present in so many of the New Wildstor...I mean, New 52 books, I find myself in a vocal minority. Writers are supposed to be pushing the boundaries of our imaginations, allowing us to dream bigger and bolder things than could ever be possible in the real world. So many of these creators on the New 52 books, however, seem resigned to making a quick buck with little to no effort by ignoring their roles as shepherds of the creativity and imaginations of thousands of people. Instead of debasing half of humanity and indulging readers that wish it was still 1935, modern comic books should be forward-thinking, and the mass exodous of talent between the the reboot in 2011 and now from DC speaks volumes to the discontentment their management is creating amongst the ranks there.
You've said before that this show is for future writers, to show them the bad content so it may never, ever be repeated. If there was one creator who the minds behind tomorrow's greatest comics should avoid emulating, it'd be Scott Lobdell. His enduring support by readers baffles me, especially when his amateurish writing and overall boorish beheaviour continues to be the shining example of why comic books are maligned by so many.
Oh, and DC is cancelling one of the only two New 52 books I care about - Larfleeze (the other being Justice League 3000). I'm sure this was done to make way for another Batman book or something. Ugh.
why are you wasting you'r time on an average comic, when Avengers Arena is so much worse?
The problem of the New 52 is that there was no organization and nobody had a plan, nobody knew what was canon. Marvel Now's strength is that all of the books are based on the writer being allowed to have a long term plan for the series with no known editorial interference. James Robinson himself says how much easier he has writing Fantastic Four a flagship Marvel title, to writing anything for DC. The fact that the only rants about modern Marvel on your show are about Spiderman whereas you rant about everything in DC shows they're doing something right.
Deadpool is especially good, by the way Linkara, have you read Deadpool's marriage issue?
Information Geek quote:
"1.It makes more sense story wise to put it first since it takes place before issue 1 and randomly jumping to the past in the trade might read awkwardly."
My reply:
I've found a hole on your theory; if "it takes place before issue 1" was true, they why weren't the issues zeros of other books put at the start of the first trade?
The issues zeros of Justice League Dark and Nightwing were put in the order they came out in the trades.
Just because it takes place before the first issue of the book overall doesn't mean it makes sense story wise, issues 0 of Justice League Dark, told the back story of the villain of the 'Books of Magic' story arch (Also thanks DC you messed up a good Neil Gaiman story), so it made sense to be included in the trade of that story arch.
Another thing, they say Qurac charged Arsenal with war crimes. War crimes are judged at the Hague and are a very special crime, so charging an american superhero with fake war crimes and executing him yourselves with no real trial and without consulting the Hague is only gonna attract attention. They could have just shot him and said terrorists did it or something.
I really hate to say this, Lewis. Because I know I shouldn't feel this way...But you were wrong to stop your "evil" hologram. Yeah.
At the risk of sounding like the Batman villain Anarchy, the executives of DC & Marvel have been fully consumed by their cocaine and prostitute habits to be reasoned with, and must be forcefully relieved of their duties if the characters and stories we love are to be salvaged. I think that tidbit you gave us about the "polls" is evidence enough.
Well, that sucked. The comic, not the review. Congratulations on getting me to squirm at weird sexual stuff in comics again. I make no secret of the fact that I like fan service in super-hero comics. I see nothing wrong with eroticised characters and art work as long as it doesn't get in the way the story and characterisation. Here is a the perfect example of sexualisation not just getting in the way of story and character but beating them into the ground with a spade and pissing on the remains.... It makes me sad.
I was talking last week to a guy from Sweden about the portrayal of women in superhero comics. He said if nothing else this kind of fan service ought to be applied to men and women equally. watching this I was left wonder what this comic (and others like it) would look like. Somehow I don't see DC and Marvel jumping for joy at the idea of equal-opportunity fan service. some of the fans might like it though.
The survey scandal oh boy.... Makes you wonder if Didio and Lee understand what a survey is for. Young men still make up a majority of DC's readership. Why they wanted to pretend it was all I don't know. If they wanted to focus solely on young men but where still worried/guilty about the other 40% of their readership then maybe they should of tried something else. Because pretending the problem isn't there never makes it go away.
I'm going to look up Gutters and Panels now, thanks.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Bat logo on the cover and on Jason's chest. Considering they were marketing this book as "Jason is his own man now" They really wanted to make sure new readers knew this guy was connected to Batman. Because Batman is the only character DC and Warner Bros have any faith in. And it doesn't even make sense in context. It sounds like
Jason hasn't been robin for year in this comic, or maybe was never Robin at all. And in the old continuity he was really sour towards Batman. So Why would he be wearing his symbol!?
Great work DC this is a new smallness-to-stupidness recto for continuity gaffs. Bravo.
But beyond that this comic is just forgettable. I guess lobdell is working from the Chicago motto. "If you can't be famous, be infamous!".
I like these longer reviews :) good stuff.
You finally bit the bullet with this one, Linkara.
-"The Outlaws"? Where in this book do they call themselves that? WHY would they call themselves that? Unless they were a biker gang or fought against the government, "Outlaws" would belong up there with "Ravagers" in the pile of "Stuporhero" team names.
-It'd actually be funny if Todd DID call in a guy with a pair of 38s to deal with 'dem tanks. And they succeeded.
-If you can't WRITE or DRAW female characters, either get someone who can, or DON'T do so! That's my policy for writing comics, lest I "pull a Lobdell".
By the way, thanks for introducing me to Doom 2099!
And the New 52 claims another beloved character. While the characterization of Starfire is nowhere even close to being as downright offensive as Carol Danvers from a few weeks back, this is still pretty damn bad.
Starfire has pretty much always been characterized as being more sexually liberated due to her culture in comparison to Earth’s, but here, they basically just used Starfire’s lack of memory as an excuse to write her as being nothing more than a soulless sex object that wants nothing more than to screw every man that she sets her eyes upon. As a fellow Titans fan and male feminist, this comic is just a slap in the face to us.
"At the risk of sounding like the Batman villain Anarchy, the executives of DC & Marvel have been fully consumed by their cocaine and prostitute habits to be reasoned with, and must be forcefully relieved of their duties if the characters and stories we love are to be salvaged. I think that tidbit you gave us about the "polls" is evidence enough."
Don't drag Marvel into the mud with DC, they didn't do that stupid poll. Marvel is actually doing good market based decisions and making books that I know actually atract new readers, like Ms Marvel and Loki Agent of Asgard. Heck, Marvel editors take jabs at DC on the internet all the time.
Also Quesada's gone now, he's been kicked upstairs along with Loeb, far away from our comics.
It's even creepier when you take the "raised a slave" thing into account.
0__0
It's sad because the whole "remembering physical feelings better then visual cues" is actually a fascinating idea, too bad they used it simply as a tool to create a shitty character.
This is a little off topic. Right now in “Batman and...” it looks like theres a story in the works that’s setting up to bring Damian back from the dead. His return is probably meant to coincide with the “Son of Batman” direct to video movie. I think that’s a mistake.
We all know, at this point, there are only two reasons that characters die in comics.
- killing an old character makes a new character look badass, and
- Death and return stories can both up the sales.
Keeping Damian dead would add a sense of stakes to Batman stories. Furthermore, I don’t like Damian. I’m sorry to his fans but he’s just a snotty kid, who’s tolerated because he supposedly has skills no realistic child could have. The only time I felt he was written like a human being was a week before they killed him. Batman and Robin are like two cops playing good cop, bad cop. Forcing Batman to be the good cop ruins the dynamic.
Also, I can’t figure out the timeline. Bruce was Batman for 10 years in the new 52, but he must have been established as Batman already for Damians origin story to work.
It also bugs me that they’ll bring that jerk back from the dead, but they can’t even have Cassandra Cain visit from China, or character limbo.
By keeping him dead, Damian could fill the role Jason filled for decades before he was brought back.
Roy's hat isn't stupid
Roy's hat is AWESOME!
OK, to get the elephant out of the room, I'll say this up front. If Starfire were to come up to *me* and ask if I wanted to have sex, I'd have a very difficult time coming up with any reason to say no. (Yes, even pre-reboot, when even dating her was a death sentence unless your name was Dick Grayson.)
That said, I went into some major rage-meltdowns about this book when it first came out, based on how it was the Teen Titans animated series that got me INTO comics, largely because I had developed a bit of a crush on their version of Starfire, and wanted to learn more about her. While I discovered that the comics version was EXTREMELY different, I still loved the character and eagerly sought out everything I could find that she was in.
And then this... tripe... came out, and I found one of my favorite characters reduced to little more than a RealDoll.
Hell, my problem wasn't even with the depiction of Kory as being willing to have casual/recreational sex, or having a distinct separation of sex and love--just as the Tamaranean lack of a nudity taboo had been shown pre-reboot, it had also been shown that Kory wasn't opposed to having a "friends with benefits" arrangement with certain people, and that Tamaranean social mores regarding love, marriage, sex, and relationships were very different from human ones, particularly for royalty. (For the first, see her relationship with whats-his-name from R.E.B.E.L.S., which still rang true to her established character; for the latter, see the whole arcs of New Titans where she had her political arranged marriages but tried to continue her relationship with Dick.)
No, what pissed ME off was how they had decided that she had a starfish memory and, also, seemingly had no more than two brain cells to rub together anyway, since she pretty much didn't do anything except on instruction from one of the boys. So now, she's not just the hot wish-fulfillment girlfriend who's badass enough to be your secret weapon but only comes around when you want her, she's also one who won't do anything unless you want her to do it (none of that pesky "free will" and "personal desires" stuff!), AND who, if you decide you're bored with her, won't remember you five minutes after you slip out her bedroom window, so you don't even have to leave a fake phone number. That's right. She's not just a juvenile fantasy, she's now a full-on FRAT-BOY FANTASY WOMAN.
I won't keep going on about this because I can feel it starting to get me worked up about it again, two years later. Instead, I'll just add two things. RHatO was one of the few DC titles I was still intending to read after the reboot, largely because of Starfire. Fortunately, I saw the previews online early enough to cancel having it in my pull list, so I never spent a dime on the horrible thing. Yes, Lobdell fucked up with Starfire so badly that he drove off someone who had been something of a "completionist" fan of her up to that point.
Beyond that, I note that after this issue came out, George Perez was so appalled at how Lobdell was writing Starfire that he apparently took him aside to give him a rather detailed primer on her character and how to write her, which, along with the fan backlash, resulted in many of the early retcons about her. What was the result? Frankly... only a slight improvement. How does Lobdell keep getting work at DC? Does he have photographs of Dan Didio with livestock? Does his father own a lot of stock in Time Warner? Or, most likely of all, is it that the current brain trust has driven off so many creators that they can't afford to let someone go, even when his writing has proven to be poison to sales?
You know, from what I can tell, a lot of the issues that were prevalent during the DC reboot in 2011 could have probably been resolved if DC editorial just sat down all of their staff for an hour or two, and decided on what the layout of the new universe was going to be, like whether or not their was a titans team before the current one. But then again i'm not in the comic book industry so what would i know.
In any case kudos for the awesome review, looking forward to the next one, and god bless.
ps. BTW when is the next HOPR coming out. ;)"troll face"
pointing towards you'r comment about DC wanting to attract an audience of 12-year-olds
yes, that's EXACTLY what they were trying to do
that was kinda the point
and seeing how the title is still going , and there don't seem to be any plans to cancel it at the moment (thus having this series outlive the Teen Titans), they seem to have chosen well
Regarding the polls, companies that do those kind of polls sometimes they have a decired number of polls for a specific demographic.
8 to 18, 18 to 49, 50 to 60, 61 to 90, for both males and females.
So basically the 18 to 49 demographic usually gets completed first while the 8 to 18 takes a while.
So it that could be what happened.
Regarding the people making the polls being assholes, that's not on DC, is on the people making the polls or maybe geeks that took the oportunity to start ranting to them so they started to yell at each other.
I would not be surprised if that had happened and was reported as just the poller being the asshole.
I think Starfire might be one of the few exceptions to the bendy-spine rule. She's a Tamaranean, meaning that she's a hyper-evolved cat
and considering how cats contort so easily, it would make sense that she can too. That being said, WHY she's doing it, I have no idea. Maybe someone spiked her drink with catnip or something
then again, that does explain it a bit. she's got cat-levels of ADD
it would be hilarious if someone just made her chase a laser pointer around XDD
I hope your time reviewing the Athena comic is easy, man
Oh Lewis, you silly boy
Starfire is obviously wearing a Kamui (Godrobe in English)
A Kamui renders the wearer's skin nearly indestructible, but the wearer needs to leave as much skin as possible exposed, unless the Kamui will destroy their mind
that would also explain her memory problems, she probably experimented with one that would cover more of her
Also the main reason that people would be interested in this comic would not be Starfire.
It would be Jason Todd.
Why? The animated movie Under the Red Hood was really successful and well received, so people wanted more Jason Todd so RED HOOOOOOOOOD and the outlaws happened.
you'r rant at the start, claiming that Jason Todd isn't interesting and that he's a boring tool with daddy issues, kinda reminds me how I have THE VERY SAME ISSUES with Bruce Wayne.
Seriously, out of all the Batman mythos Batman himself is the weakest link
Seriously, Bane made for a better Batman than Bruce
Jason is more interesting by default, simply by realizing how impotent Batman is in the long run, and being a walking example of where Batman's methods ultimately lead
Here's like the only sane man in a short-sighted world
also, he has more reasons to have The Joker as his arch-nemesis than Bruce does.
And to be fair, Jason and Starfire did at least kiss, and they did spend a lovely evening of talking to each other together
and Jason did spend most of the of the flashback issue walking around naked
Good review. I have to agree that the first issue was terrible. In fact there was a lot of stuff in the series I didn't like. I'm glad we got a new writer for the series who's actually trying to make the series interesting. Unfortunately he's only around for three issues. Check out this review for one of these issues.
http://www.geekedoutnation.com/comic-book-reviews/review-red-hood-outlaws-29-big-picture/
Dear Mr. Lovhaug, as a bisexual woman, I find myself slightly annoyed that you think only heterosexual men are attracted to beautiful women
that said, still great review
another nifty review..... dear god did that suck.
actually I think they had a missed opportunity, if they changed some stuff. cause oddly enough that gave me an idea.
what if starfire could not remember most of her teammates because her kind based memory recollection more on energy? they are a species apparently able to travel through space unaided, in some version at least, and absorb energy. what if they recognize and remember others through sensed energy signatures? it could work if they reowkred a few things, like have it their species was original born in the vacuum of space, and since there is a problem with light and sound with that they relied on sensing energy for communication and identification?
that could be used for a bit of drama I think. starfire recalling emotions and itneractions yet could never place a face to it short of a few others whose bodies produced energy.
of course that could only be plasubile if these imbeciles actually had the creativity for it
you know, I would get angry at this comic, but after the whole damn thing with Ms. Marvel in the Avengers, I'm just really glad it was all consensual
I think D.C gave some stupid answer at the time, but why is Jason "I hate Batman" Todd wearing the Bat-symbol? A whiny plea for attention?
"Look, Daddy... I mean Bruce - I called my team The Outlaws! It's like The Outsiders, but not! Mostly because we're unlikable."
So... New Tamaraneans form 'connections' or whatever by sex. That lost any chance of making sense the second she had no memory of Dick (I better put his surname here) Grayson. Assuming that history stayed the same on the unmentioned non-Titans team they were all on, if... oh, to Hell with it. In hindsight, I'm glad Donna Troy got left out of this garbage reboot.
Wait,there are those that havent watched all of Linkara episodes?Inconceivable!
Avengers Arena and Superior Spider-Man I think are the only titles of Marvel NOW that are controversial with divided opinions. The others seem to be fairly well off. But I'm not sure on that one as I'm still a relative newbie to comics.
In fact it's thanks to Linkara's Avengers #200 review that got me curious about Carol Danvers that led me to be curious about Captain Marvel. That in turn led me to become a fan of the new Ms. Marvel series and is the first comic series I'll be reading and buying regularly. So, thanks Linkara.
Anyway, as for this. Aside from Starfire's utterly unforgivable portrayal, this comic just felt...boring. Jason and Roy are boring, the dialogue was boring, etc. If the comic was just Jason Todd and his misadventures with Essence, the girl that makes Jason Todd seem like a crazy ass, that'd be more enjoyable.
But this does make me happy that I'm not a DC fan whatsoever when it comes to their comics. I get enough grief with other fanbases and franchises as it is, I don't need DC to make things even worse.
oh, so this is where the creators of Kill la Kill got their artistic inspiration
I get you don't care much for Jason. However, I like the character, he was the reason I picked up this book at the start of the reboot. He more than "a meat shield for the characters we actually give a damn about". Sure, he sucked in Countdown but so did everyone else. Donna Troy calling Jason a "Retodd" comes to mind. Red Hood and the Outlaws sucks to be sure, but Jason does have the potential for good stories. Pick up Red Hood: The Lost Days for a good story with Jason.
you know, this comic outlived Demon Knights
and it just keeps on going
Incidentally, for all the talks about how people get oversensitive at sexism towards women in comics, has anyone ever tried to provide a lengthy list of male characters designed solely for arousement?
That said, before hand I might consider the comic a case of a writer not really understanding when/how to execute sexual moments with tact. But with the incident mentioned, I have to say it makes defending it even shakier.
Scott Lobdell has entered the "I'm gonna rape your childhood and enjoy it" club alongside Michael Bay, James Wong, Raja Gosnell and M. Night Shyamalan.
but Linkara, Starfire NEEDS to leave as much flesh exposed as possible
otherwise her costume would consume her!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXlZh1R2nfI
The dictatorship comment actually is not that false.
If anyone does go back and catch up on every previous AT4W episode - I'd kinda like to not be possibly the only one rating them all on IMDb.
you know, Jason Todd DID spend most of issue 6 running around naked
But you already reviewed a Sonic comic. One is more then enough!
Great episode, Linkara, and congratulation on closing this topic. Now, I'll add my 2 cents.
Reboots are so tempting tool for writers. There is less risk to write about already popular established charactes. But sometimes existing continuity conflicts with what writer's story. And reboot is much easier way to remove unwanted continuity then have a character make a deal with a devil. I'm not against all reboots, and sometimes an alternate interpritation of characters can be as likable as the one we got used to (my favourite Batman is Silver Age one, and I only started to read Silver Age comics this year). But reboots are so easy to screw up, and most often screw up it is.
Jason Todd wasn't likable as Robin, and he isn't more likable as Red Hood. He is boring, and my favourite Red Hood is Joker anyway. Moving on.
I loved to read about Speady. When he became Arsenal, I didn't read his as often, but I enjoyed it neitherless. After reboot... I don't like this guy at all. There was time when I liked Roy more then Oliver, now I don't care about both of them. (Good thing there are few Silver Age comic featuring Roy I didn't read yet)
Now, there was a question about ages, was it not? I'm 32 years old male. I'm all for sexualising Starfire: she (at least from her Titans time) was strong likable female character. I'm all for puting Starfire in chainmail bikini. Her outfit in this comic was NOT a chainmail bikini, it was just stupid. Even completely naked she would look better and more in place then this stupid outfit. As for Starfire's personality, I have nothing to add to what you said, Linkara. You nailed it.
On a topic of fanservice for girls, it's (of course) exist. But you'll have better luck to find it in Japan. Examples are just too many to list all of them here.
You know what the worst thing about the "pair of 38s" line is? Besides the setup not making any sense and the sexism? It's that it doesn't even work as a boob joke, because the number in a bra size is the BAND size. All it tells you is how big around her ribcage is, not her breasts.
Honestly, if you can get past volume 1, the second volume is a lot better, in my opinion. the new creative team that took over after issue 21(?) has also done a great job with the characters.
I'm another reader who only knows about Starfire from the Teen Titans animated show. The one where she values love and friendship over everything else and was not the least bit sexualized. I'm a man in his mid-20s and I would much rather see an adult version of that character I grew up with than this character, who I'm convinced comes from the same place that Crazy Steve came from.
Scott Lobdell has never had a woman close to him. Because they run away from his noxious fume emanating personality.
Yeah Linkara I can see why you have a hate on for most of the 52. Making Starfire, one of the nicest heroes of the DC universe into a slut is pretty terrible. And why don't we have a sexual shot of a male character. Equal rights is all I'm saying. Great review as always.
PS: Thanks for the Court of Owls recommendation, no one of my favs.
Sorry for double post, forgot to say.
I'm OK with comic book characters having relationships. I'm OK with those relationships resulting with sex. I'm not OK and I'll never be OK with characters having pointless sex for no reason and without any chemistry between them. This sceene can be cut out from this issue, and it'll change nothing.
This comic offends me. It completely derails and wastes the characters I loved so much. Most fanfic writers can do better then that. (I'm Robin x Starfire shipper, and I'm still sure I can do it better then that).
How about it: I challenge fans to write a fanfic love story between Starfire and Arsenal, that would be better then this comic. And I'm not lifting a plank too much for this one.
That was a joke, but you are welcome to try if you want anyway.
Aww, you went for the new blip interface, I liked the older one. It also made double-taking much easier.
Great review as usual Linkara. It surprises me to learn that DC has fallen so far and become nothing more than a train-wreck of hopes and dreams. Manipulating the polls just to suit their own benefits, blatantly retconning anything they want instead of having a plan, it's really painful to see.
A good example is the "Starfire remembers better with action" nonsense they pulled that you talked about. If they just gave it a little more thought, they would have realized that it was a horrible explanation. Going with what you said, she would need to sleep with her enemies to "remember" them. Pretty sure that her enemies aren't going to be willing. Congratulations DC, your explanation just turned Starfire into a amnesiac rapist!
Well, actually I've never wanted to see review of RHATO here. I heard all the arguments pro-contra and probability of the good jokes in the episode is low. And I was right. Oh well, not every episode must be something new and joyous.
Well, all things considering, except first issue, I liked this series. Guess it makes it my only personal guilty pleasure series. 1st issue I find too fanservicy for my taste and I... kinda feel like authors try to fool me with this things, like disguise lack of good things by pretty picture. So I am wasn't really reading second half of the first issue. Well, I guess I avoided worst parts this way and didn't spoil view of next issues (cause I didn't read them monthly, I read them like 10 issues in a row, could be this). May be it is just me, having a bit of the lower threshold for considering things just OK. I guess, compensation for lower "rate" of what I consider really good things.
To those who want to know about Marvel Now in comparison, here's the thing: It's not a reboot, its a renumbering at best. Everything that happened with stuff like Secret Invasion and Civil War and World War Hulk, all those events and more are still canon. Nothing has really changed continuity wise, its just all the books have been reverted to number ones.
Hell, Deadpool's book recently made a point about using Marvel NOW to actually clear up/explain the confusion concerning his crazy backstory. Everything from his past is still canon, the only thing changed is now they've given a reason to some of strange inconsistencies.
Marvel didn't relaunch its universe, it relaunched a bunch of books. Mainly because it didn't want to do what DC did, but still wanted to get the number increase. I'm not going to say Marvel is somehow better, its just they don't want to get rid of their history for once. They're kinda nostalgic over there I guess. At the very least, they didn't want to do a total overhaul.
DC did. These are the results.
It is painfully clear that Starfire only exists in this book to be a sex object. There was no reason they couldn't create actual armour for her that made sense. The response about her needing to absorb sunlight is an excuse. Superman needs sunlight to use his powers, how come he's not half naked?
The answer is simple, he's a dude and not many heterosexual male comic readers will want to see dude junk in their faces. Now girly melons, sure! That's what our immature dipshit audience we have no respect for intellectually want. DC has tried to retcon the problems with Starfire, they've tried to explain it away, but it's stupid no matter how you slice it. They turned a loving, empathetic, courageous, strong character and turned her into an alien bimbo male fantasy.
I was turned off this book almost immediately and I'm a lonely whitebread male who ogles cartoon girls all the time. Even I found this insulting. You think I'm gonna buy your stupid book because you basically draw porn in it? No, fuck you. I'm here for a good story, not to jerk off. The fact you think this is all it takes for me to spend my money on your series is painfully demeaning to me as a person. That all I care about is tits and asses.
A good review and well-thought out analysis, Linkara. You spelled it out pretty plainly. Starfire deserved better. In fact, anyone Scott Lobdell writes deserves better.
Hey DC, you say Starfire wears skimpy clothing because she absorbs sunlight? If that's the case, why haven't you taken Superman out of his red-and-blues and slapped him in a micro-banana hammock?
And I've got to say, in that splash page of Kori in a bikini, her breasts look bad. The dividing line between the two breasts isn't distinct, making it look like they've melded together into a single super-boob or something.
great review of a terrible comic
I got into the titans through the cartoon and in that there was a episode where starfire explained a word her people had where friends just sort of faded away and drifted apart from each other and sometimes became distant and depressed or alone
without any support for anyone to help them
in the episode the idea of this happening to her or the titans terrified her and it really showed the empathy and the bond the characters had for each other
in this comic it doesn't even seem like the character is even capable of these things and its just seems so empty and sad
i read the technis imperative due to your review and enjoyed it a lot
thanks
Soooo....Has Mr. Lobdell written anything good? I'm wondering because it seems like he has written comics with potential, but he ends up screwing the opportunity.
I actually have to give this comic some points for originality
You don't see sexually assertive women in fiction too often
most of the time, women tend to be depicted as prudes who get offended at anything sounding even remotely sexual, or humiliating the man for any attempt at romance
either that, or they are creepy stalkers who don't take no for an answer, and yet for some reason, we are meant to like them, because they are women, and a man has no right to refuse a woman
so yeah, from that standpoint, this Starfire is an improvement over the average
"-If you can't WRITE or DRAW female characters, either get someone who can, or DON'T do so!"
but then people will call you sexist for not including any
So Starfire is a hedonist who acts on impulse because she's constantly bored by everything?
hm...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDn2Xp5ctQM
you have to admit, there are some similarities
I like this book, and I like Starfire.... sorta.
See, I don't know if this was the intention, (and probably can't know unless they release the scripts and discussion documents) but Starfire in later issues seems to be shown to be less a goldfish, and more a nihilist. She DOES remember Dick and the other not!Titans, but memories are painful, so she pretends they don't exist. She's a massively harmed, traumatized person. Oh sure, it makes Jason and Roy assholes for exploiting that, but they're assholes anyway, and I can enjoy reading a book about assholes.
This is why Green Lantern is now the only DC comic i care about.
In reply to Plan 12 Entertainment:
Quite simple with the zero issues, the first trades for most of the books that had a zero issue had come out already before Zero Month (like say Nightwing, Animal Man, and Resurrection Man).
True, story wise some of the zero issues made sense where they were placed in later trades, like JLD, so that explains some of the books. However, story wise in the case of Red Hood, it makes more sense to have 6 issue go first rather than interrupt the flow of the story. Sort of the same case with Morrison Action Comics run, where two issues during the first 8 were moved to the back of the trade collection.
Also, in regards to the Books of Magic story arc of JLD, the writer of the arc, Jeff Lemire, went that route on his own accord and even contacted Gaiman to see if it was okay with him.
Anyways, to Linkara himself, if you need another bad New 52 comic, may I suggest Catwoman #0 (the one with the infamous Catwoman cover) due to being an awful origin story or prehaps Batman: The Dark Knight #23.4: Joker's Daughter to being just flat out awful in every way possible (check the scores around the Internet. This thing got tons of 2 out of 10s). Both written by the same author to boot as well!
Thank you for your review, Mr. Lovhaug! I found this to be particularly entertaining, and I thought your points on why the portrayal of Starfire was controversial were quite strong.
However, I am unfortunately unenlightened at what is going on at DC. I think I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt as I often live by the creed of dislike the work, but not the workers for there are numerous comics that might be considered good (such as Earth-2, Justice League Dark, Aquaman, etc), though I am curious of what you think about Wonder Woman or Brian Azzarello. I also quite like this series, so does that make me one of the lowest common denominator?
I hope you have a happy Easter (and that you might find some enjoyment in Athena #2)!
really linkara... i feel really sorry about starfire in new 52 and also... you make shedule if you don't wanna boobs or naked skin it blame little on you ^^!
The idea of an alien character who, for some physiological reason, couldn't recognize humans for more than a short time (maybe used to recognizing 'auras' or maybe all humans look alike to it because it's a squid alien or something) COULD work. If it was a different character. And that character wasn't oversexed.
But Starfire? Two problems with it. First, Starfire is supposed to be someone developing all these friendships on her team. That's even something they managed to remember with the Teen Titans cartoon. Second, it suggests that she literally has no connection to any of the humans. They are just things to have sex with. If she has no connection with them, there's no actual team or companionship. They're just people who for some reason happen to be in the same place at the same time.
Now, how could it have worked well? That Squid Alien idea I mentioned above. Basically, what TVTropes calls a Cthulhumanoid. A hominid, but with a face that features tentacles coming out of it. You could write a story where this character is considered perfectly normal among its own space-faring kind, but on Earth it has to deal with the fact that most treat it like a freakish monster instinctively, and it can't tell them apart. The Cthulhumanoid species all has the same skin color and they distinguish by a high pitched sound humans can't recreate and the specific unconscious movements of the facial tentacles. So when surrounded by humans, it's surrounded by creatures that look too confusing, so many different colors of skin, so many parts of the face move and no familiar cues to latch onto. To make it worse, they have no quick and easy way to recognize a human, interspecies sex is completely impossible so no tentacle porn cop-outs.
There. I have never written a comic book in my entire life and I'm pretty sure that idea (which I thought up in under ten minutes and several of those was just to look up the proper spelling of Cthulhumanoid) is far superior to the "Tamareans can only recognize people by having sex" excuse both in concept and in the conflicts it creates for the Cthulhumanoid character.
Been taking your advise on viewing episodes on Blip. I have no idea why the advertisements won't play but hopefully it get's fixed soon.
I never knew there was so much "nudity" in comics... I think I'll just let my nephew watch the DCAU instead.
Loved the end credit song!
Excellent review, Linkara.
Even though this comic has been criticized and its flaws have been pointed out by most reviewers,you were able to show why it sucks without being redundant.
By the way, MST3K joke, hooray!
This comic isn't re-Todded.
It's ROY-Todded.
... 'cause... 'cause Roy Harper... is there... too...
Sigh... I'm sorry. This comic hurts me so much, I'm reaching for jokes to throw at it. I'm one of the people who was introduced to Teen Titans through the animated series, and this just... hurts me. Once again I must complain about not being able to get rid of my copy since it's digital. I wasted three bucks on that thing. And all because I wanted to form my own opinion on it rather than dismissing it as crap just because that's what everyone and their mother says it is. ugh.
Oh, Starfire. I don't mind your skimpy outfits (though a more practical costume really couldn't do much harm). I just want to see you smile. She smiles in maybe ONE panel of this comic.
Though speaking of the cartoon, I can't help but wonder if you'd ever consider reviewing the new "Teen Titans GO!" cartoon, be it just a special episode on your own or a crossover. I'd almost say it's worse than this comic... it may be family-friendly, but it treats Starfire's character with about as much respect as this does, plus is just as bad with all four of the others... more than twice as many characters getting screwed over than this comic.
Oh God … I’ve always joked about the fact DC makes it a point to alienate any periphery demographic but … they actually do. Why? Even if you’re a deeply racist, sexist, ageist, homophobic person … doesn’t their money spend as good as anyone else’s?
To be fair the MCU has just about reached that point of male objectification … ignoring all the abundant fanservice in the movies which usually has at least a flimsy justification and is really playful, the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Facebook page put out a picture of Agent Ward in a towel with the caption “Ward has six reasons for you to keep watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.” Yeah … I’d be lying if I said that didn’t make me kind of uncomfortable, considering everyone would have lost their minds had it been Skye in a towel with a similarly flippant caption – and even that would have been more forgiveable since Skye at least has a personality and Ward, until recent episodes, was always pretty much there as a prop for female-oriented fanservice and occasional badassery when Coulson was otherwise occupied. I think I may have felt a bit like a feminist guy seeing blatant objectification of women when I saw that post. It was meant playfully but … even so it squicked me a little.
Ugh. New 52. “A starting point for newbies.” Bull. Corn. Bull corn. That was the most infuriating tangle of continuity I’ve ever tried to hack through – and I tried to get into Marvel too. Scott Snyder did a good job of writing as though there was a lot of continuity but remembering there were a lot of noobs trying to catch up … A lot of other things about his writing weren’t to my taste but I appreciated that. Others just pretended we’d started all over, and that was probably infuriating for people who had been following books for years but at least it worked with the stated goal of the reboot. And then there were other people who just said “screw it” and wrote whatever the heck they wanted … the lack of editorial leadership was so painfully, painfully obvious throughout. Here’s a thought … if you have trashed your car so thoroughly you have to get a new one, maybe take some driving lessons so you don’t turn around and wreck the new one right off the lot.
To both companies: Instead of trying to make newbies by the comics with superficial changes like making so-and-so’s costume look like so-and-so’s costume in the movie, PUT A RECAP PAGE ON IT. That is a really simple change that would help so much … yet very few comics have useful recap pages. Oh and actually have stories up to par … that would help too. I wouldn’t have minded the continuity lockout if the stories were worth it.
Ugh Scott Lobdell. He claimed the reason he didn’t give Roy Lian back was because Roy is so much younger and he didn’t want to glorify teen pregnancy – yet he’s showing these young people engaged in promiscuous sex with no evidence they’re using protection (so far as I could tell). What kind of hypocritical butthole thinks it’s bad to “glorify” the consequences of the actions he’s depicting but not those actions themselves?!
Can I be really obnoxious and be like “Civil War request!” in response to the whole “You can back to asking me to do comics I’ll never do” joke? I tried to jump on that one as like the second or third Marvel thing I tried and was scarred forever and it would be cathartic to see you go over that one lol.
Hey Linkara, where did you hear that DC rigged the results of the poll? I was looking on Google, and aside from an article which casts serious (and credible) doubt on the results, I'm not seeing anything that actually exposes it.
Is this news really recent?
Yeah, except Kill La Kill was good.
" I think I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt as I often live by the creed of dislike the work, but not the workers for there are numerous comics that might be considered good (such as Earth-2, Justice League Dark, Aquaman, etc), though I am curious of what you think about Wonder Woman or Brian Azzarello. I also quite like this series, so does that make me one of the lowest common denominator?"
Azzarello is not a bad writer, but I'm not a fan of some of his more popular works. I don't like the Wonder Woman run, but I don't begrudge people who do like it.
"Hey Linkara, where did you hear that DC rigged the results of the poll? I was looking on Google, and aside from an article which casts serious (and credible) doubt on the results, I'm not seeing anything that actually exposes it."
I was around when it was actually happening and I got to see results and commentary from other people about the whole thing on forums. Hell, even I tried taking the poll and it rejected my opinions.
Yeah...that was a bad comic. I don't think you need to convince me any more than that. Unfortunately I don't mind some sexuality as long as there is context and it's not just for titilation or something like that. But it is sad that they would transform Starfire into someone who has lost all her purpose just to be "the busty girl who is with Jason Todd and Roy Harper".
And yet both DC and Marvel keep scrambling to reboot due to their messes...why not just make good comics?
BTW: funny ending song.
And people ask why DC Comics is considered a Cinema Sin.
Thanks a lot for stating that fan service isn't bad even for itself. Starfire has ALWAYS been the most fan service-able in any comic she's been in, but thinking back to Marv Wolfman and George Perez it was one tastefully there and made sense.
If Redhood had one truly good thing about it, it was Blackfire's retcon. I always liked her and wanted to see more of her.
I watched every episode of in about month in half or so after finding you. Yeah I have watched all the episodes several times. :)
I have come to conclusion that there was a mandate from Dido and company that said the following must be in new 52: Everyone must be angry, angst, and or totally unlikable. No character should be like there old universe version (other then batman and green lantern) If character doesn't start angry/etc then must have something screwed up happen to make them like it. Oh yeah things like character development and marriage are bad words and should never happen. Everything I said above pretty much I feel was dc though process coming up with most of the new 52. This book highlights the problems with everything front and center. Stuff like this why I'm this close to quitting dc comic books.
Retcons when you anger the fans so badly it is the only thing that can fix it even if the damage has been done. I wonder if there was some unspoken part of George Prez that was mad about New Teen Titans being erased and starfire character that made him want to leave ontop of the other crap dc put him through. What they did do starfire is just UGGGGGHHHHH. Gives me a headache. It's insult to Teen Titans, women, and comic readers.
I am one of those people whose introduction to Starfire was from the Teen Titans cartoon. It's that version of Starfire that I came to love. As such this version of her rather disgusts me. I am very sad if this is what they think their audience enjoys.
I'm giving a link to the Gutters and Panels article you mentioned.
http://guttersandpanels.com/gutters-and-panels/2013/3/23/the-new-52-timeline-of-departures
The only time I remember being impressed by a comic's fanservice was in an issue of Iron Man from the late 70s/early 80s. All the characters, both male and female, spent the issue kicking butt in skimpy bathing suits. Plus John Romita Jr. and Bob Layton were on art, so it actually LOOKED nice, as opposed to whatever was going on here...
I may have to track that issue down now just to wipe the memory of this slop from my brain. And then I'll go read some New Teen Titans to remind myself that Starfire is awesome, no matter what Lobdell and Co. do to her.
I still can't find Demon Knights Vol2 in stores.
And somewhere Marv Wolfman and George Pérez after what has been done to Starfire
God I hate this comic Hell I was also one of those people that watched the Teen Titans cartoon (same with most of my friends) even though I dislike the Teen Titans Go! (to me it's not a continuation of the teen titans show since the writors never scene the show) even they try their best to make Starfire a badass but this is the cruelest thing a comic book writer could do to starfire I mean they basically made as one of my friend puts it "they made her an Oompa Loompa slut with alzheimers."
As someone who was a fan of Starfire and was introduced to the Teen Titans thanks to the cartoon.
Yeah, I don't like this version of her. She's everything Linkara mentioned about the character.
Man, what a dull issue. Shouldn't the first one make you want read the others ?. Outside of Linkara's criticism and Linksano I enjoyed the Mst3k Outlaw clip.
"It's supposed to be armor of some kind. What's the point of armor that doesn't cover anything?"
And because the last anime that I finished watching was Kill La Kill, the first thing that popped into my head when I heard that sentence was "Life Fibers". Which makes me realize just how weird these last couple weeks have been. Nova Girls, Avengers 200, SCI-Spy, and now Red Hood; comics with stupid fan service or just terrible treatment of women characters in general, meanwhile I'm watching KLK which has the two female leads getting naked almost every episode, and yet is done with the awesomeness of Freddie Mercury riding a tiger through outer space.
Seriously Lewis, was this meant to be a "Women Month" that got pushed back because of scheduling, or did it just turn out that way?
As I've said before, I like Red Hood and the Outlaws. While I can see why you'd have problems with this issue in isolation, I think it really needs to be examined in the context of the series as a whole. You seem to be aware of this, as you mention later "retcons" that address some of the issues you have with this comic. However, whereas you see them as "retcons," I see them as "character development." The things we learn about Starfire later show that her characterization fits in with the underlying theme of "three broken people coming together and finding a chance for growth/change/redemption" (paraphrasing from memory something that Lobdell said). The reason that Starfire is acting so strange and out-of-character at the beginning is because there's something WRONG with her, just as there's something wrong with the other two leads. However, she's come a long way since then... or at least, that's what I remember. I lost interest after James Tynion IV took over.
As an additional note, I'm one of those people that got into comics due in large part to my love of the Teen Titans animated series... yet I have to say I actually like the comics version of Starfire (pre and post New 52) better than the TV version. Not so much with Raven, though... was really hoping they'd add some of the characteristics of her cartoon version to the New 52, but no such luck...
Great review, as usual.
One comment on where the idea of Starfire being promiscuous may have come from - Judd Winick's Outsiders. Pretty much everyone in that book was depicted as being a complete horn-dog.
I think you missed a major problem with Red Hood, I don't think the only role with him is just a batman villain, I think he could be an interesting character with his own series, IF they bothered to develop his character whatsoever.
But they haven't, they've just given him whatever character they feel fits the situation he's in, and they won't, they'll keep just wildly altering his character and reason for being in each situation.
This is beginner level stuff too, you make a character, you put them in a situation, then you develop them based on that situation, this can apply to books, comics, movies, videogames, it's a three step process, but they're only doing the first two, and I don't think they'll ever do the third.
Fun Fact, in Starfire's first appearance if you cover up either her top half, or her bottom half, you can see they are two entirely different poses that are not supposed to connect to each other. They are just connected through the incredible shrinking/stretching torso.
"Seriously Lewis, was this meant to be a "Women Month" that got pushed back because of scheduling, or did it just turn out that way?"
Just turned out that way. That line near the end where I proclaim, "I just realized this is the third week in a row with creepy sex stuff!" Yeah, I wasn't kidding - I JUST realized that while filming it, so I added it in.
(sigh) Oh boy... I'm with some of the others here in that I'm only really familiar with her from TV, watched the original and have caught the odd episode of Go! (like that they got the original cast back and that the character designs are loosely based off of the original show's, not that fond of anything else). This version... Ugh. 2 second memory... Skimpy outfits are common enough that I give a pass*... Sex for no other reason than she's bored and couldn't care less who she's with? Not even porn is that dumb. Ugh.
Fiery Little One
*the only exception is the original version of her bikini from this issue. I went looking for an uncensored version of the image you used. ... I find myself wondering why they even bothered drawing the bikini in the first place if the end result was her basically naked anyway.
Yup, here comes the pain.
And there it is. It's name is Starfire.
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRGHH!
Seriously, I am part of the Teen Titans TAS fans that in fact was drawn to this comic back when it came out. Then I read it. And I did not pick up a single comic book before a trade of Ultimate Comics All-New Spider-Man... IN 2013!
::sigh:: Y'know I hate to bring up Gold Digger on here but I kinda have to several reasons. (Many of which are what probably will turn Linkara away from it even more....)
Yeah Freddy Perry puts a lot of cheesecake (both male and female) in his comic but usually he makes up for it by making the characters interesting and making the audience invested in them.
Brittany for example may commonly wear a lot of scantily clad outfits but throughout the series, she's gotten married, become a mother, gotten stuck in an alternate dimension for 5 years while only a day went by in Earth time, fought her way back through several otherworldly threats and is still helping out her sister Gina on her archeological studies while raising her daughter and dealing with the fact that her husband is a workaholic member of what's essentially the Justice League combined with the Men in Black.
That's how you do it. You do not make a character whose only purpose is to serve as fanservice. Especially when it's someone like frigging Starfire whose been around longer and has been characterized much better.
Y'know I feel bad for dropping the only good books in the New 52: Demon Knights and Frankenstein Agent of SHADE and letting them get canned but this is what happens when money gets tight. You have to make sacrifices.
I think you are being unnecessarily harsh on Jason
Throughout his life, he was failed by every parent figure he had.
He had one misfortune piled unto another happen to him.
He died, got brought back, only to be failed again (at least from his perspective)
Yet despite all this, he's still able to pull himself together time and time again, and even find other people with similar fates so that they can support each other
What I really like about the Outlaws is that it's essentially the story of three people who each experienced their absolute low, only to bounce back, and find friendship with each other.
Throughout the series, they all have shown to care about each other deeply, and are willing to go to hell and back for one another.
And I really thought that the thing that actually happened between Korry and Jason was pretty adorable.
Other than that, I really like this review.
The first issue doesn't really stand on it's own, and it's not until the second issue that the story starts picking-up.
"Yeah Linkara I can see why you have a hate on for most of the 52. Making Starfire, one of the nicest heroes of the DC universe into a slut is pretty terrible."
But slut-shaming is even worse
"And why don't we have a sexual shot of a male character."
Not sure if it counts, seeing how he's from an anime, but Aikuro Mikisugi from Kill la Kill is pretty much that.
He exists only for two reasons.
To provide exposition, and to strip.
Usually stripping while providing exposition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GuZfvid9rc
Also I have to tilt my head at Essence pointing out that the organs were removed from living victims. Why? Well, in order for organs to be harvested, the body cannot be dead over half an hour or the organs aren't just useless, they are poisonous, hence why mostly braindead organ donors are harvested and barely any people that just died.
Information Geek
"Also, in regards to the Books of Magic story arc of JLD, the writer of the arc, Jeff Lemire, went that route on his own accord and even contacted Gaiman to see if it was okay with him."
Okay, Gaiman was fine with this I let that slide.
Also by the by I think it was weird that we had (and spoilers) a magic that is really technology (and for that matter technology from another dimension) twist in this book only for a month or two later to have be the reveal at the end of Trinity War, and then it's leads into Forever Evil (an event comic that leads into another event comic, thank you DC).
It makes it sound like the editors had an off-day when they didn't realize the similarities or the creators have little to no originality.
Oh man...that probably is the most male gaze comic I can remember. Speaking as an artist, a lot of these poses are not even that impossible, but the combination of exaggeration and picking these odd perspectives to get the most T'n'A in the frame makes it look awful. Especially on that Bikini fan service shot that proportions are off. Also there's the fact that Starfire's ribcage outline is so pronounced that it looks unhealthy.
It's sad to see really, because when the panels are not overly detailed (where her and Arsenal are walking away from the beach) it's obvious the artist does know how to do it right.
The only fanservice image that you showed here that looks decent was the one where she throws her hair back (The pic the kid snapshotted from behind the bushes). No faults with that one, art-wise.
Anyway, great review, had a lot of fun watching =)
Hi, Linkara. That was a great episode you gave, very terrible comic book indeed with the very poor characterizations and tasteless fan service.
For possible good comics in the future, have you considered reviewing something from Barry Windsor Smith? Not only was he an artist for Marvel on titles such as X men, Daredevil and Machine man, but also made very Beautiful Comics for Conan the Barbarian. I'm sure, even if you never heard of the man, you might like his work.
Starfire in the 80's was the quintessetial innocent fanservice girl. She liked people, didn't mind showing skin, and was a warm individual that was fun to be around. Now it would be an issue to keep that outfit for a kid's toon, but the essence of who she was didn't change. She was still a wonderful foil to Robin's super cereal mood. The fanservice or lack thereof didn't hurt her, it was just a way to express the personality.
This though, if it was another girl, fine. But Starfire? It misses the point entirely.
Oh hi Speedy, how is your sex life?
So, my personal most hated comic is the 2004 run of "Challengers of the Unknown," and since you're taking DC requests again...
Lewis,
Just watched the episode, and I have to agree with you. It was also rather amusing to watch you tear into it.
Want a female character that can be flirty and flaunt her looks with a bit of fan service while still being a worth while character? Check out Power Girl's solo run from before the New 52.
However, that's not why I'm posting this comment. I don't have an add blocker on my computer, I'll be double checking to make sure my anti-Virus software isn't blocking adds now and I've missed it, but I wanted to inform you that this is the second or third time I've come here to watch a video of yours and when the advertisement went to play, it just sorta skipped itself. And I don't want that to keep happening because I want you to be able to get paid for your labors, so, I'm pointing this out again in the hopes that it's on your end and it's something you can fix in the event I don't find anything in my Anti-Virus.
@Timzor Except they were added in reprinting.
I can think of a better line for that Shortpacked comic. "DC Comics: owned and operated by sexist, clueless, money-grubbing jack-offs!"
Red Hood and the Outlaws, among many other comics and decisions made by DC Comics, is just another solid example/nail in the coffin as to why the New 52 is a massive failure on multiple levels. It fails to bring in new readers. It fails to stay true to the characters and their rich history. It fails to perform a reboot properly. It fails to be consistent with its continuity. It fails to put forth quality over quantity. And it truly fails to be faithful and kind towards its fans and the creators who wanted to put some actual effort into this. The only way I could possibly see this mess correcting itself is if the entire company goes into bankruptcy and all of those involved in this epic pooch-screw are taken to court.
On a closing note, Linkara. Can we please skip Athena #2 and go into something more enjoyable, like Mr. T and the T Force or Gameboy? I think I speak for everyone here that the weeks of comics that degrade women has worn out its welcome. Unless this is a theme and we're obligated to carry on for longer than a month (Sexist Pig Fantasy Celebration sounds about right?).
On the bright side (hopefully), Steph Brown is finally coming back!
This may just be me, but... Starfire seems like a lobotomy patient taken in by a sex crazed asshole who left her believing that's really all she ca offer. She shows no emotions, no pleasure from sex, poor memory and cognitive capabilities...
This alone makes this comic both horrifying and sickening, especially to fans of the cartoon.
@Nero Agelo
Though it still doesn't explain the weird inconsistant proportions.
This comic just this comic.
Starfire: Yeah I am the person you was introduce to the teen titans by the cartoon show and this is just bad even having retroactively read the old comic books these makes even less sence just awful.
roy harper: and the character I learn to like the most from the comics and his past of drug use, ex-girlfriend villainess and child parent so Cry and Rise are gone but like many problems in comics reboots characters must be "hip and cool" but never change[which means they must forever change to fit the rapidly changing meaning of "hip" in marketing departments]
Jason Todd: I feel like your words on him where stolen from my mouth. so not much to say.
finally the poll, polls are forcelly baised like that all the time but at least they where upfront about it. Also where did you get the blog pics you didn't credit them in the credits?
"Kaze Koichi said...
But you already reviewed a Sonic comic. One is more then enough!"
Ah, clearly someone who hasn't seen nor read Sonic Meets Image Comics, I take it?
Sonic Live was pretty much a given seeing how that short comic story is reviled among the Sonic comic fandom and how very odd it was.
I'm sure after Sonic Meets Image Comics, Linkara won't get any really big requests for specific Archie Sonic comic issues. And it's Image comics being involved here, as well as a really odd history behind the comic as well.
After that, there's some really odd TMNT comics and spin-offs Archie did. I still remember how very bad the Conservation Corps were (lasted around three or four issues).
So, what was really accomplished with that comic? We had an action scene and then some talking that did not seem to potentially build up to anything. Even the zombie thing didn't seem to amount to much.
In my humble opinion, this character can't even be called "Starfire." She doesn't (from what I can see in this review) have any real defining personality traits or quirks that scream "Hey! I'm Starfire!!! :D" As mentioned earlier, the Starfire that was introduced to audiences was one who was very emotionally invested in the people around her (but I'm only going by the anime so feel free to correct me if I am wrong) and was more feelings-oriented than a Care Bear.
What we see here, on the other hand, is a memory-challenged, anything-you-want doll (similar to the statue thing from the AT4W DVD) that has the same amount of personality as the Borg collective and only looks like Starfire. I know the comics were rebooted but come on DC! You wouldn't wreck your other heroes by stripping and warping their personalities-- *suddenly remembers JLA: Act of God*.
Never mind. Great review Linkara!
I'm seeing a lot of excuses for Starfire's portrayal here as a sexual Goldfish with bare minimum armour. All I can respond to it is "You're giving them too much credit."
Evolving from cats makes their spines more flexible? I have two cats, they're flexible because they are cats. Starfire is a two legged mostly human looking alien. Monkeys and apes can grab shit with their feet, not many humans can and only just. When you evolve, you lose some traits that become redundant. Starfire's spine wouldn't be super flexible because of this.
Godrobe? Really? Do you honestly think Lobdell thought of that? And even if he did, why the hell would someone who's already super strong need that? If she needs transparent armour, she might as well make it out of see-through bullet-proof plastic. Look, don't make excuses for this. Starfire was put in a skimpy outfit because they wanted people's junk to stiffen while reading. They thought sex would be enough to sell. Theres no mythology shit in this, it's just stupid regular shit.
They're here for Jason? Sorry, but just because Under the Red Hood sold well doesn't mean it was automatically going to make Jason popular again. It may have played a roll in putting him on the cover, but Starfire was far better known by people outside the comic reading community who watched the show. The people who bought Under the Red Hood were primarily Comic fans already. They're the people who buy those DVDs. Jason wasn't really the draw, putting Starfire on the cover was obviously part of what they hoped would double the appeal for potential fans and those not familiar with the comics themselves.
Starfire as a Nihilist? Okay, I refer back to Linkara's response to that statement. "Why is that a good thing for this character? How does that make her interesting and not like every other grim, gritty, scowling jerkwad who now overpopulate the DC universe with their cynical bullcrap? I don't want to read a story about a Starfire who apparently thinks the memories of people who cared about her are painful for no discernible reason and lets people use her like Jason and Roy do. That's infuriatingly stupid and not in the slightest bit interesting.
Starfire was supposed to be about love, kindness, compassion and empathy. Bored as fuck, sex-addicted, scowling nihilist who's silently "woe is me" is not interesting in the slightest to me. Why it is to others is beyond me. But hey, there are some idiots who like Avengers Arena despite it being complete shit. so what do I know?
@Lizard-Man
While I agree with most of your post, I must say that I'm quite confident that people using the Godrobe excuse were joking. That Godrobe is from an anime that aired about 6 months ago. Unless time travel was involved, I'm pretty sure that this wouldn't be a solution anyways.
OT: Yeah, you can mark me down as one of those who watched Teen Titans. In fact, I was initially excited for the nu52 because of it. And it was thanks to this comic that I only bought Demon Knights and nothing else. Dear God was this comic insulting.
Well... on the one hand my only exposure to Starfire was from the animated series and to which this version of Starfire is pretty much in Negative-Universe doppleganger territory compared to.
On the other it gives us the term "Sexual Goldfish" - something I may quite possibly never stop finding hilarious.
Nice review as always Lewis...
buuuut i have to point out an error concerning the cover:
Roy is not using a Longbow.
Its more likely an Recurve- or Ridingbow, wich were designed for fast drawing, medium range fighting and hit and run tactics.
They draw out at about armlength.
As for the holding it sideways: this is in fact an close quarter shoting technique. The Arrow is lunched slightly more upwards, to penetrate the Neck area this way. Well... usualy afterwards it would be time to drop the bow and draw steel instead, but whatever.
Here it is primerly used vor posing and this stupid gangsterstylelookhowawesomiamthing...
I don't know if you will read this or not But...I actually subscribe to red hood and the outlaws...I've enjoyed it since issue 1... Yes I admit It was because of starfire that I picked it up and I didn't like what they did to her...I will say that right now..but honestly..it's gotten me into Jason Todd..and Roy Harper..and I still enjoyed Starfire...I recently had a chance to get my issues 1-5 signed by the artist...and he seemed like a nice guy and talked to me about the said issues for a bit. I Truly have enjoyed Red hood and the outlawns since it came out... I found Jason todd to be interesting through out all the issues and I even laughed at some of the jokes Roy harper gave out. I continue to read it to this day. I also Enjoy Red Lanterns...
"I don't know if you will read this or not But...I actually subscribe to red hood and the outlaws...I've enjoyed it since issue 1... Yes I admit It was because of starfire that I picked it up and I didn't like what they did to her...I will say that right now..but honestly..it's gotten me into Jason Todd..and Roy Harper..and I still enjoyed Starfire...I recently had a chance to get my issues 1-5 signed by the artist...and he seemed like a nice guy and talked to me about the said issues for a bit. I Truly have enjoyed Red hood and the outlawns since it came out... I found Jason todd to be interesting through out all the issues and I even laughed at some of the jokes Roy harper gave out. I continue to read it to this day. I also Enjoy Red Lanterns..."
You're free to like it if you want. ^_^ It's just not going to stop me from bashing on it, sorry to say.
In the way back after I was introduced to Linkara by a friend I marathoned all of his episodes. Granted there were like 50 or 60 at the time. Has it really been that long?
Ok this was bad. I had to think long and hard about what to say about it. As well as getting a W tooth removed, but that's beside the point. Not trying to justify Starfire's promiscuity, I mean I at least thought of a reason for her Nude Stint in that Titans vs Trigon's Son's comic in the original Mainstream: While on the surface it seems like pointless fanservice, but to me it's no different than what anyone would do when they have the house to themselves. Come on let's face it you walked around your own home alone nude at one point in your life. But this. I wanted to come up with a rational explanation. The closest I could get, just from looking at this will not justify it, as it's just as disgusting if not more disgusting, but as a plot point would have handled it better. Stephen King's It. They do not remember killing the monster the first time around and as their memories faded out of both their own personal lust and desperation, the Losers Club slept with the only girl in their group, believing that it would help them remember at least something about one and other. In the case of Kori and this is from looking into this alone I haven't seen the other comics so I might be wrong. She needed to find a way to remember each and every member of her friends (Both guy and girl.) and probably did something out of the same desperation, something of a physical nature. Whether or not it's sexual I am unsure, but she is willing to try everything to at least have that memory kick in, which is why as you said Jason didn't get any from her. He probably just got a kiss or at least a held hand and she sensed something she didn't like and stopped from there.
Man, Batman laughing is creepy o_O
Never trust a survey of statistics whose outcome you haven't decided yourself.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that this issue is apparently titled "I fought the law and kicked its butt!" <_<
Aside from her being reduced to energy beam spamming fanservice, Starfire's whole attitude makes it baffling why anyone would work with her. It's like having to rely on an easily distracted cat or something.
And you know, this whole DC reboot reminds me how the German government went apeshit after the Fukushima desaster, made a complete 180° turn on their view on nuclear power and hastily put together a new energy turnaround project that was poorly thought out, poorly coordinated, made energy prices skyrocket, actually hurt the environment because we now have to rely more on coal instead of nuclear energy, and this whole mess won't protect us from nuclear desaster anyways because almost all of our neighbours have rather old power plants right next to our border.
Now with that pointless knowledge out of the way, why was DC apparently in such a hurry to reboot everything? Why didn't they take their time so they have a solid plan and writers can finish their ongoing stories? Why didn't they use this single opportunity to turn fans of the various DC adaptions (like fans of Teen Titans) into proper comic readers? Why has their whole atmosphere become so hostile?
@Doresh
"Now with that pointless knowledge out of the way, why was DC apparently in such a hurry to reboot everything? Why didn't they take their time so they have a solid plan and writers can finish their ongoing stories?"
To put it simple, they had no time
From the info I got, WB basically forced the reboot onto DC, because they did not like that the Disney owned Marvel had better sales.
The people at DC had no real say in the matter, and were forced to put the whole thing together in a few months
"From the info I got, WB basically forced the reboot onto DC, because they did not like that the Disney owned Marvel had better sales."
Could you post a link to this information? The only sources I'm finding are fans talking about this, but nothing that would be accepted as a reliable source, such as an interview or a press release. I don't really doubt you, I'd just like to see this information first hand.
I do find it appropriate that this video came out on the same week as the new issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws
The new issue, by the way, features a major reference to the Blackhawks, a guest appearance by Frankenstein, and Lobo.
Not the small Lobo who's currently harassing Supergirl, but the big Main Man.
I will openly admit that Jason is one of my favorite Bat characters, next to Damian, the missing Cassandra Cain, Batwoman (at least from the previous creative team), and Flamebird, who should really be called Phoenix after her metaphorical rise from the ashes
Batman is too much of a know-it-all can't-be-wrong, while Dick, Barbara, and Tim are too much of a bunch of boy(girl)scouts for my taste
also, you do realize that Jason's death is basically just another example of fridging a character, right?
guess nobody cares if little boy's get killed, as long as no woman dies, it's all OK *passiveagressive*
speaking of which, did you notice that since people started complaining about "women in refrigerators" , the death of children became ALLOT more common?
"also, you do realize that Jason's death is basically just another example of fridging a character, right?
guess nobody cares if little boy's get killed, as long as no woman dies, it's all OK *passiveagressive*
speaking of which, did you notice that since people started complaining about "women in refrigerators" , the death of children became ALLOT more common?"
No, it really isn't. "Fridging" is, by definition, "Killing/Maiming/Raping/Depowering/Harming" a FEMALE character in order to provide inspiration/story motivation to a male character. It coined in 1995 based on a 1994 story where Green Lantern's girlfriend was killed and shoved in a fridge. The reason Gail Simone came up with the term was because by 1999, IT WAS REALLY THAT DAMN COMMON. Most people didn't even realize how common and pervasive a trope it had become. And you're right - the amount of child death has gone up in recent years, but I don't see your reason for pointing that out unless you mean to say that they should be killing more women instead. I say they shouldn't be killing so many people period.
However, my point about Jason stands: Batman had not experienced that kind of a loss before, Jason wasn't that great of a character when he died, and the resulting stories that could be told with his death were better than the ones that could be told if he continued living. His resurrection provided new fodder for stories in a different direction, but they have failed to live up to that potential.
Correction: coined in 1999, not 1995.
" 'From the info I got, WB basically forced the reboot onto DC, because they did not like that the Disney owned Marvel had better sales.'
Could you post a link to this information? The only sources I'm finding are fans talking about this, but nothing that would be accepted as a reliable source, such as an interview or a press release. I don't really doubt you, I'd just like to see this information first hand. "
Yeah, heard it on the forums as well.
It is however interesting that the rumors about WB pressuring DC started circulating even before the reboot was officially announced
@Lewis Lovhaug
sorry for busting in on you'r conversation with anon, but I have to say it
I always objected to the term "fridging" being used purely on women, seeing how this practice is used on characters of either gender
It creates the impression that a man's life is worth much less than a woman's
And I do agree with Anon, Jason's death carries all the signs of a fridging.
Barbara's paralysis could be considered equal to Jason's death, as it did open the possibilities for new stories, however people commonly tend to call that instance a fridging as well.
I will also say that Jason was a pretty interesting Robin in his own right, largely by the virtue of not being perfect.
Jason is an interesting character, because he had to struggle on every step of the way to even get where he is now.
Look at it this way. Both Dick and Tim would have achieved great things in life, even without Batman involved. (Cynics may say that they'd actually achieve more)
Dick Grayson was an ace trapeze artist since his early childhood. A true athletic prodigy.
Tim was essentially a boy genius.
They were the gifted few. The ones destined to stand above the masses.
Jason was different. He was never special as a kid.
He was literally one of the people.
He had all his life's odds stacked-up against him, and he pretty much just got lucky when Batman picked him up, and he grabbed that one chance with all of his strength.
Unlike Dick and Tim, who were special, Jason obviously had to work really hard to keep-up with the Bat, all while constantly standing in the shadow of Dick Grayson, never being seen as good enough.
And despite making his share of mistakes, he still took Batman's teachings to heart, and even got to shine himself on some occasions
(I checked the continuity, this is the same Jason would later become Red Hood)
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/11757.html
Then came his death and resurrection came, and with it, the harsh realization that the philosophy Batman thought him was heavily flawed.
Seeing his murderer running around free to kill and maim without any real consequences made it clear to Jason just how little Batman managed to achieve during the years after his death.
It therefore only made sense that he began seeing Batman as part of the problem. (Once again, a cynic can say that he truly is the problem)
Without anyone's help (not counting the training he received from the League of Assassins), he worked his way up the food-chain, and became a vigilante of his own.
No luxury of a trillion dollars inheritance, he had to work hard, and sometimes had to do immoral things to get all the resources he needed for his crusade.
On his own, he managed to crawl his way from ground 0, to being able to go face-to face with Batman.
As time went on, Jason learned from his mistakes and tried to better himself, with varying degrees of success.
Despite still thinking that Batman's methods are flawed, he has shown willingness to bury the hatchet, and even did so with some of the more open-minded members of the Bat family. He put his life on the line for his former mentor, even if he didn't have to, and he expected no thanks in return.
He managed to find friends who understand him, and who support each other.
Jason Todd is a character that changes and evolves.
Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, and even Batman stay the same (aside from occasional costume change) no matter what happens
In a way, Jason Todd is just more real
(which is to say about someone who came back from the dead)
I’m another person who was introduced to Starfire by the Teen Titans cartoon and this comic is not only boring, but awful and ridiculous. As others have said, Starfire here is nothing more than an emotionless, vacant-eyed sex doll who has no purpose but to titillate the reader by posing in contrived positions. She has no personality, no goals, no dreams, nothing. Everything about her serves only to justify the heroes objectifying and sleeping with her. Oh, she has the memory of a goldfish? How convenient, she won’t remember to call Roy or Jason for another date. She also won’t remember dating Jason’s rival/predecessor, so Jason won’t have to worry about her comparing the two of them. Sex is not about love for her? How convenient, Jason and Roy won’t have to deal with her being “clingy” or “emotional” or any other pesky “feminine” emotions, they can just have sex with her and then ditch her when they’re done and she won’t care.
Not only is Starfire coming off as a sexualized fantasy, she’s coming across as an extremely *shallow* sexualized fantasy. I mean, really, this is what the writers are fantasizing about? Yeah, who cares if Starfire has no personality and looks bored all the time, she’s hot and poses sexily and that’s enough! It doesn’t even matter that she doesn’t want to be with these men because they’re so special but because she can’t go for five minutes without sex, rendering the sex completely impersonal. She doesn’t praise the men for being so attractive or so good in bed. She doesn’t have sex with them because she’s genuinely attracted to them. She just has sex with them because the plot said so and that’s that. She’s nothing more than walking fanservice.
Speaking as a fan of the Teen Titans cartoon (the actual one on Cartoon Network, not Teen Titans Go), I am disgusted with how Starfire is portrayed. Yes, she is an alien, but that doesn't justify this sex-crazed amnesiac bimbo behavior. This is how they want to get new readers for the New 52? By turning heroines into misogynistic fantasies for horny preteen, teenage, and 20-something men? I hate to see how they're going to reintroduce Donna Troy after this!
Something is seriously wrong with DC Comics and I think DC needs to get its act together before their so-called targeted demographic decides to jump ship for Marvel or Image or Dark Horse or even Archie!
Great review on this bad comic. Will you do other issues of Red Hood and the Outlaws?
@Lewis Lovhaug
"And you're right - the amount of child death has gone up in recent years, but I don't see your reason for pointing that out unless you mean to say that they should be killing more women instead. I say they shouldn't be killing so many people period."
Which is kinda my point.
People will throw a tantrum when they kill a woman or a minority, but don't give a damn if it happens to someone else
That's why they moved to children, because next to killing a love-interest, it's the simplest way to gain cheep sympathy for the protagonist.
The problem is not that they kill women or minority, the problem is that they kill characters for cheep drama
Address the real problem, NOT it's symptoms.
It's pretty obvious that all the so called "social justice" peeps don't give a damn about you unless you are a woman or a minority.
You just don't matter.
And Jason was fridged.
He was killed to provide angst and drama for Batman, rather than as part of his own story.
And you don't disrespect Jason.
He defeated Mongul, and saved Batman's, Superman's, and Wonder Woman's lives
@Katherine
you obviously didn't read past the first issue, so you have no right to complain
even if Lewis dislikes this comic, I respect him because he at least bothered to read a full volume
Starfire may be many things, but she's NOT emotionless of vacant
You WOULD know this, if you actually bothered to read the series
"Address the real problem, NOT it's symptoms.
It's pretty obvious that all the so called "social justice" peeps don't give a damn about you unless you are a woman or a minority.
You just don't matter.
And Jason was fridged.
He was killed to provide angst and drama for Batman, rather than as part of his own story."
And it seems obvious to me that you're not actually listening to anything said, since the opportunity WAS there to NOT kill him and it was left to the fans. Regardless of the truth to the rumors about the auto-dialer, they didn't just decide to kill Jason, they left it up to the fans to vote and then honored that. It was not simply "We'll kill him to provide angst for Batman," it was simply a side effect of his death.
And again: the problem here is the sheer PREVALENCE of women dying/raped/depowered to provide inspiration for the male heroes. THAT is why Women in Refrigerators had to be created and addressed - it was because nobody actually realized how common a trope it was vs. how many male ones it was happening to. And creators at the time acknowledged it and recognized that it was a problem and tried to make themselves better.
"Starfire may be many things, but she's NOT emotionless of vacant
You WOULD know this, if you actually bothered to read the series"
And as someone who actually did read a good chunk of the series after people kept insisting the book got better, I think she IS portrayed as emotionally vacant or, at the very least, not a very appealing person to want to read about. None of them were. I hated all three characters in every issue and felt it was increasingly dull and annoying and poorly put together.
And yes, she has every right to complain about the first issue, because if you can't get your act together for your first issue and present something that will make people want to keep reading, that's the problem of the creators, not the fans.
HOW a character's death is portrayed plays an important role in whether or not he/she is "fridged".
Jason's death is not really as exploitive as "put in a fridge". He certainly got a away much better than Stephanie "tortured with a power drill in a T&A pose" Brown.
Wasn't there some kid that got mauled by a demonic dog? That's much closer to fridging.
@Phoenix:
So it was basically the higher-ups suddenly calling and screaming "Make more sales! NOW!"? This honestly explains way too much going on nowadays... <_<
Mind you, there are good stories to be found in the New 52, but I fear for DC's long-term success. With all those editorial shenanigans going on, they run the risk of scaring off writers.
About your comment regarding Arsenal shooting multiple arrows at once at around 11:04
That's actually a legitimate archery technique.
Lars Andersen holds three arrows in his hand so he can fire them rapidly one after the other. 3 arrows in 1.25 seconds is his record. His accuracy suffers but he can usually hit his target to within a few inches.
Apparently in the Persian army archers had to fire 3 in less than two seconds and it took them about 40 years before they got really good. From what I saw Arsenal wasn't firing at once but looked more like he was firing in rapid succession. One arrow is flying away and it doesn't look like the second one in his hand is strung, so much as been held. At least to me.
Also this technique usually has the archery not pull the string back fully.
For more information see this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KC1Os-_NE&list=PLdmHUtigeAI-ksfKVvQy9b_3AyELBFLpo
I've noticed a lot of people are talking about Teen Titans and how fans of the show really hate what this comic did to Starfire. I would like to bring up a different side of that dice, namely Roy Harper and Young Justice.
Young Justice, like Teen Titans is a pretty popular cartoon. While Roy wasn't a main character, he still had a pretty interesting character arc. I personally was really surprised at the twists that they did with Roy. To make sure I don't spoil the cartoon for people who haven't seen it I'll keep it brief.
They gave Roy his cybernetic arm WITHOUT KILLING LIAN.
Now they could have used THAT Arsenal, instead of this idiot who can't even aim his bow properly. Plus it would have made more sense for YJ-verse Arsenal to become a mercenary.
But then again, considering what they did with Artemis...
I'm surprised no else here already mentioned this, but since there seems to be some controversy over why Jason Todd was killed I think editor Denny O'Neil's own statement's on the matter needs addressing.
According to interviews for Les Daniel's DC Comic (1995) Denny said:
"Jason had drifted in a direction that is probably my fault as much as anybody's. We didn't set out to make him an arrogant little snot, but somehow or other in tiny increments he ended up that way. We reached the point where we were going to have to do a drastic character revision on him or write him out of the series."
He also claimed to regret his suggestion that the company use their 900 number offer for fan participation to solve what he called the "Robin problem." He said, "We could have simply lighted his character, or had some event happen to him that made him change his act. That certainly would have been the way to go."..."If I had to do it again, I would certainly have kept my mouth shut."
Denny did admit one "respected journalist" suggested a set up, but claim the whole matter became somewhat out of control. He also admitted to cheating somewhat by casting a vote for Jason to live, "because I suddenly realized that I had set myself up for an enormously difficult editorial task if the kid didn't survive."
As it turned out the story was picked up by major news outlets who rarely covered comic book news back than like the Wall Street Journal and apparently many people who didn't follow the story assumed they killed Dick Greyson, probably due to fond memories of older comics or (more likely) the old TV series. For some time after that Denny was identified and harassed by hostile strangers until the fury blew over.
He claimed the whole experience changed the way he thought about his job. "These characters have a lot more weight than the hero of a popular sitcom that lasts maybe four years. They have become postindustrial folklore, and a part of this job is to be the custodians of folk lore. Everybody on earth knows Batman and Robin."
"I was around when it was actually happening and I got to see results and commentary from other people about the whole thing on forums. Hell, even I tried taking the poll and it rejected my opinions."
How is that possible when the "A Death in the Family" came out in 1988? I'm pretty sure your younger than I am, so I don't you could of been among the people who would have taken the poll at the time it was open. Maybe you read about the result in the aftermath if they were on available on online so where, but how could have still taken the poll years after the phones were closed They were (supposedly) only open for two days!
"How is that possible when the "A Death in the Family" came out in 1988? I'm pretty sure your younger than I am, so I don't you could of been among the people who would have taken the poll at the time it was open. Maybe you read about the result in the aftermath if they were on available on online so where, but how could have still taken the poll years after the phones were closed They were (supposedly) only open for two days!"
Erm, I was referring to the New 52 polls from two years ago - not Jason Todd's death.
@MacCashman:
That's all kinds of awesome. Though I fear that neither the writers nor the artist did enough research and just went with what looks cool and stuff.
(And I hope the Persians used their archery a bit sooner than when they hit 40. Sounds a bit excessive)
you know Linkara, you love to go on about how it was the fan's decision to kill-off Jason
what you however fail to mention is that it was the fans who had him brought back, gave him his own series, and made it last as long as it does (is is among the 28 out of 52 launch titles that are as of now still going)
It was the overwhelmingly positive fan response to the possibility of Jason's return in Hush, that got him brought back
It was the demand of more Jason after the success of "Under the Red Hood" that got him his own series
And it is the almost fanatic devotion of the fans that allowed the series to survive till now
(it was among the top 100 most sold comic titles of February 2014, outselling Swamp Thing, Birds of Prey, Animal Man, Superboy, All-Star Western, Batwing, and Harley Quinn among others)
the fact that you'r comment section turns into a battlefield whenever this series is mentioned should speak of iself
"the fact that you'r comment section turns into a battlefield whenever this series is mentioned should speak of iself"
It's not really a battlefield. Some people expressed that they enjoy the series but see the flaws of the first issue, others agreed they disliked it.
seeing how people were making this joke since the start, I may as well go the extra mile
http://24.media.tumblr.com/0f603f67af884ce1cef91aacb9a1073a/tumblr_n47tvv9WiO1qea91lo3_r1_1280.png
and just to make it complete
http://31.media.tumblr.com/d231ea36f50717bfd3b8f9695ad51806/tumblr_n47tvv9WiO1qea91lo2_r1_1280.png
I was looking forward to this comic because I used to be a Red Hood fan.
I say I used to be a Red Hood fan because I loved his characterisation in "Under the Hood" (and I loved the animated version, especially with Jensen Ackles voicing Jason) but I haven't read a story since then with the character that I've really liked.
Hm speaking of comment wars Linkara, I know you pretty much look at every comment you receive. Do you ever reject any comments from appearing or do you refuse to do so because you don't want to fall under a slippery slope or something?
"Hm speaking of comment wars Linkara, I know you pretty much look at every comment you receive. Do you ever reject any comments from appearing or do you refuse to do so because you don't want to fall under a slippery slope or something?"
I reject spam comments or comments done in poor taste: see comments relating to Justin's death. Or rather, don't see them because one set of comments I didn't let through. There have also been times when I would get into an argument with someone in the comments (mostly making trolling remarks) and eventually I'd get bored with pointing out how stupid they were and just stopped letting them through, but I'm always honest and open when I do such things.
@Cletus:
Teasing the possible survival of Jason Todd in Hush was a great idea, but actually bringing him back so shortly afterwards was a bit weird.
It's a bit like that one time Magneto disguised himself as some other mutant, who later turned out to be an actual mutant so the character would still exist. It sort of cheapens everything.
It's good that DC listens to this apparent demand for more Jason, but the writers don't really seem to know what to do with him.
And if you ask me, I think the series also banks on former Titans fans, seeing how 2/3 of the Outlaws consists of former members. The fanservice doesn't seem to hurt, either.
You call this a Battlefield? The only comment section that comes close to a battlefield is the one for the "Please turn off Adblocks" video, and that's largely because of Youtube commenters trolling around.
I still think you overreacted with the whole Justin issue. You never fully realized it, but you pretty much flipped your lid. You exploded in a ball of rage and lashed out unfairly against people who didn't know any better (and who had no idea that the mere act of criticizing any video that Justin was a part of was your Berzerk Button).
You pretty acted like Lupa. Yeah, those comments may have been in poor taste, just like Spoony's joke. But you pretty much let your rage cloud your thoughts and verbally harassed the ones who made that comment, just like Lupa did.
Lupa eventually admitted that she overreacted and that she shouldn't have let her rage cloud her thoughts, so you should do the same.
"Violence is not strength and compassion is not weakness" doesn't just apply to physical violence, it applies to verbal violence as well.
I understand that Justin's death affected you...but you just weren't yourself. The Linkara I know is kind, polite and compassionate, and you have pointed out that the comments were in poor taste without resorting to swearing and verbal aggression.
"I still think you overreacted with the whole Justin issue. You never fully realized it, but you pretty much flipped your lid. You exploded in a ball of rage and lashed out unfairly against people who didn't know any better (and who had no idea that the mere act of criticizing any video that Justin was a part of was your Berzerk Button)."
And I don't know why I have to keep pointing this out, BUT THE COMMENTS THAT I GOT PISSED ABOUT WEREN'T CRITICISM.
You go back to that video and see people saying they just didn't think the video was funny or that it felt off or any other ACTUAL VALID CRITICISMS. THOSE got through just fine. The comment that I didn't let through that first time? Brought up the inaccurate stuff about Spoony and Lupa while also trivializing Justin's suicide by turning it into a cheap joke.
And the follow-up to that was someone saying that I somehow was an asshole for posting videos that I participated in that were recorded before Justin's death and that (shock of all shocks) I actually give a damn about people I knew personally rather than a friggin' actor who I had never met before!
And by the way? Bringing this up in a comments section that had absolutely nothing to do with it and then saying I'm an asshole because I actually have anger when someone acts like a fricking insensitive, insulting moron? As if I can never angry at anything? QUICKEST WAY TO GET ME START ON THE SWEARING AND VERBAL AGGRESSION AGAIN.
This topic is OVER. I KNOW it's you doing it again. I will not be letting any more posts on this through. You can call me a coward for doing so, but the only coward I see is the one who thinks he's being smart posting anonymously about a subject they know will rile me the hell up.
@ 11:20 – As someone who has done archery and has hit the target multiple times, often enough in the bull’s-eye, let me just say that sometimes shooting your bow sideways is perfectly fine. Your arrows will still shoot straight and if done with careful practice and the right kind of bow can make it easier to shoot your bow and allow you to shoot quickly. If said anti-hero has practiced with his bow in this manner it is feasible that he is doing the things he is doing.
@17:07 – A giant red helmet? That’s a dick joke.
The Athena review made me realize something about Starfire's portrayal.
Starfire in this comic is just a hyper sexualized magical girl. The type you see in really bad anime that randomly love or at least have sex with a loser (see our trucker hat wearing friend Roy) for no discernable reason. She's also incredibly powerful and can do things regular women can't.
Congratulations Lobdell. You turned one of the most popular characters from.the Teen Titans cartoon into Magical Sexual Goldfish Starfire-chan. Bravo.
I love this comic series. And it's sad but true, when we love something we have to allow it to be mocked.
My gf (who writes the blog The Geeky Gimp btw and is a brilliant writer who you should read) was recently talking about sexual politics in comics and how they have actually gotten WORSE over the past few years. This comic has done nothing to dispel her of that notion. In fact, she was actually asking me to turn it off as soon as the "pair of 38s" joke was used. (btw, I am ashamed to say that I giggled childishly at that joke; not because I find big boobs funny, mind you, but at the blatant immaturity of the writers).
You know, alot of people really like Jason Todd for who he was before the reboot, they say he make a great anti-hero and as DC's equal to the Punisher, hence why he has a strong fanbase.
Where am I going with this? Well since you don't like him how about you do a top 15 list of comic book character who you hate while everyone else likes?
Think about it, you can include him Jay and others, and share your sentiment as to why don't like like them while understanding while others do.
Good idea, right?
Personally, I like the idea of Jason Todd as a hero, but I also agree he'd be ideal as a foil for Batman. It seems to me they could never get him right, no matter what they were going for. In that stupid crisis story, he was boring and a total tool, as you say.(Seriously, punching out Jokester for trying to cheer him up? No doubt he'd have issues with any version of The Joker, but that was just awful.) In the newer comics, they made him a monster who'd kill cops simply for being in his way, literally, just standing in his path. I personally think he'd be best as an anti-hero with the personality and motivation usually applied to villains. That is, hating Batman, and his idea of justice, and killing evildoers would be both what HE'D call justice, and a way to spite Batman. I think there'd be potential for a Daredevil and Punisher dynamic there, with a bit of a twist. The typical confrotation would be iniated by Jason Todd, usually trying to prove a point to Batman of how, in Jason's mind, his way is the wrong way, kind of like how The Joker does, instead of just pissing and moaning all the damn time.
*Is laughing her butt off*
I am probably one of the only people on earth who will actually argue that given the right writing, even something like pornography can be 'art' and have emotional depth.
This is not it. I'm sorry but Starfire here has less character than the hero from an eroge I'm not going to name, and when your writing is literally being outdone by a Japanese eroge series, you need to seriously rethink your strategy.
I have literally played pornography with better character arcs than this work, that's how low we've sunk.
This girl is annoyed. Heavily annoyed.
@Troy Troodon
Not everyone likes Jason. He is by far the most polarising Bat-character.
When it comes to Jason becoming Robin, I love that Jason was picked because Bats felt bad about Dick (he says it himself at some point).
Oh yeah, and regarding the call-in vote, the Under the Red Hood DVD commentary has it being said that MANY people thought that the Robin in question was Dick, who, as we all know, is excessively popular, and that meant a lot of the “alive” votes were misinformed. And that isn’t a rumour like the computer-dial thing.
Jason Todd’s inadequacy issues hurt so hard. I mean, there’s the daddy issues up the ass, but there’s also the epic chip on his shoulder in regards to EVERY ROBIN EVER (Steph aside). For a while, it was his mission in life to have dick measuring contests with Dick (no pun intended)… who absolutely stopped caring (that issue with Dick deciding NOT to bring Jason’s Robin costume with him to the Batbunker made me so happy). Then there’s the thing with Tim (which Scott Lobdell screwed up by making the two basically BEST, even though Battle for the Cowl is still in-continuity). Sorry he was a better Robin than you, Jason.
About Jason’s helmet… can artists PLEASE decide what the hell it is and what it looks like?! Here, it has LIPS. Other artists draw it as fabric instead of metal as well. I was always under the impression that it was metal without any features except eyes, which are whited out, and maybe room for a nose. Why would he even ADD lips? I mean, what if Iron Man just decided to add lips to HIS armour (I know he added a nose once, but even THAT is better)?
Lobdell’s writing in the New 52 is just a big clusterfuck. The Jason sleeping with Starfire thing is… I don’t even know. What the hell, man? Seriously, all Jason needs when saying those things is about 10 popped collars and sunglasses to hit the Douche Olympics. And seriously, Lobdell later writes Jason and Tim as being very close, to the point where Tim says Jason is the “closest thing he has to a brother”. No. I refuse. I refuse your idiotic, character shilling bs. He doesn’t even let it develop naturally. Jason does Tim a few favours (that Tim should have been able to do himself), Tim says he understands how Jason feels… forgiving the fact that the guy tried to murder him At LEAST once (pretty sure Battle for the Cowl is still in-continuity), and did the same to his mentors. Then, the two have a joke. And apparently kept in touch (would’ve been nice to SEE). Apparently Jason’s worst actions were retconned out, but it’s still hard to swallow that Tim thinks that highly of Jason. THEN, there’s the epic mishandling of Tim, who was apparently only ever Red Robin, despite every Batbook ignoring that. And the fact that his real name isn’t even Tim Drake. Seriously, Lobdell, just… ugh.
My sister reads RHatO, and she REALLY likes Jason, and even SHE thinks the writing is bad. From Jason inexplicably being able to pull off some ultra-mega-super-secret-sugary-karate move while UNTRAINED, to being some kind of Chosen One who was supposed to lead an assassin group or something (might’ve been the League of Assassins). I mean, I don’t read the series myself, except a few issues when I’m really bored in-store, but I think Dick, Tim or Damian would be better choices for that kind of thing.
Nice deconstruction of why the Starfire stuff sucks. When people complain about it, some of the series’ fans get into the idea that people are slut-shaming. No. That’s not it at all. If it was, then Power Girl going back to her old costume would’ve made people raise up arms. But it didn’t. The majority of readers prefer the boob-hole. The issue isn’t just skimpiness or a character having casual sex. If It was, Young Avengers #1 (Marvel NOW series) would’ve gotten crap for Kate Bishop. You got it right, Linkara. Nice work.
(continuing...)
I’m surprised you didn’t bring up the Pfeifer Teen Titans relaunch with the Rocafort cover. You know, the one that has Wonder Girl’s boobs being blatantly plastic surgery, because real boobs aren’t that damn round? And, of course, Rocafort also has Cassie’s top placed lower so that her costume is even MORE prone to having her boobs flop out than it originally was (Hell, it’s be shown to be fabric that can be torn relatively easily), and she’s right at the damn centre of the cover.
DC’s handling of the New 52 is so hilariously bad. The biggest example I can think of is the whole Batwoman issue regarding Kate Kane’s marriage which caused J.H. Williams III to quit… and yet, that Batfamily Thanksgiving picture showed a wedding ring… way to backtrack and lose one of the best artists in the industry, DC. Like James Robinson, I’m hoping he ends up at Marvel. That, or on Batman, Batgirl, Batman and Robin or Grayson, though I doubt it.
@William Ngo
I know not everyone likes him (Lewis is one prime example) everyone has their perspective why he/she doesn't like about something.
And that's why I think a "Top 15 characters who Linkara hates while everyone else loves" would be a good idea for an episode, so he can go over his pick, explain why he doesn't like them while acknowleging why most other people do like the reasonable person he is.
Seriously, who wouldn't want that on AT4W?!
@ Troy Troodon
Oh, okay. It's just the wording that's the problem. "Everyone else loves" makes it seem like Lewis is one of a very small group who dislike the character when that's absolutely not the case here.
But yeah, that's a good idea, though I'd take it a step further and make it be various runs and teams, as well as characters that he hates that others don't, but also stuff he LIKES that others don't, e.g. Mark Waid's Threeboot Legion (I think that's the one, Legion history isn't something I inflict on myself) and Danny Chase. The downside is there will be EPIC shit being thrown around in the comments.
if wonder if roy harper meant these?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_38_15_cm_howitzer
Frankly I think this whole business about half-naked super-heroines is a stale one. In the history of comics there have ALWAYS been artists who have idealized the female form and pushed the edges when it came to titillation. The fact that it's done in super-hero comics is about as surprising as finding out there are scantily clad women in a James Bond movie.
I can remember seeing "cheesecake" drawings of Sue Storm and Beautiful Dreamer drawn by Kirby; Steve Ditko showing tantalizing images of Betty Brant's backside and don't even get me started on John Byrne's version of The Scarlet Witch. But not too many "morally out-raged" critics remember these images because there was something else more memorable--namely good stories.
Whenever female writer\artists do their comics, sorry to disillusion you, they idealize men as well but usually the focus isn't on "beefcake" (although there is some of that) no, what they choose to idealize is the fact that the male hero is competent or exceeds all previous expectations of heroism, or the lack there-of. In short, male and female creators have ALWAYS idealized each other but how it is expressed reflects the differences between the genders and what they choose to emphasize or exploit. But even this cannot be written in stone: some of the most romantic stories I've ever read were by Alan Moore and one of the most sexually graphic was done by Roberta Gregory, but the latter was for an older readership and
was appropriately labeled.
As long as a comic is properly labeled and the contents reflect this accurately (as opposed to something like AMAZING SPIDER-MAN a few years ago, but that's another story) I am not "outraged" by comics like RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS, I just choose not to waste my money on them.
But then again, I'm not a Teen- Ager anymore. When I was 13, I didn't look for comics for "titillation". We had Suzanne Somers on THREE'S COMPANY for that!
-LEADER DESSLOK-
As someone who actually wears bras .... that "joke" makes no sense. Like, seriously.
1) As someone else mentioned, 38 is the band size, which has no relevance on breast size (it's just the inch measurement of below the breasts). The cup size is what they would have wanted, but wouldn't be a pun.
2) Starfire would not wear a size 38, unless everyone is monstrously huge. Her rib cage is way too small for that.
I know I'm a bit late in the game, but this was actually the first volume I purchased as a new comics reader back in May. I wanted to read it because of Jason, not Starfire, even though I did watch the television show and knew who she was. Jason is the reason I started reading comics, so I admittedly have a rather large soft spot for the guy and I find Lobdell's perspective on him to be...endearing. But that's just my opinion. I like the lame banter haha.
I DID start to notice as I read through the issues that it was obvious who the target demographic was with these comics, and being a 20-something female, there were moments that were so juvenile I had to slap my forehead. But the crazy and weird-as-hell storylines and situations were amusing in their own right, and I think the characters started working better the further along the comic went. I purchased all of the volumes up until Lodbell dropped off the writing because people told me his replacement's work was worse. Still debating whether or not I want to bother trying it out for myself, as I've been more interested in exploring other parts of the DCU besides the Bats corner.
For me, the comic was more or less a guilty pleasure because of my soft-spot for Jason (even though his constant references to his death and irritation with Bats tend to grate a bit). I'm also on the side of the fence that would rather see him rectify his situation with the Batfamily and move on than continue to blow things up. I totally recognize why people would want to see him prosper as a villain, but for me I'm just a sap and want to see things work out.
As for the New 52...I feel like I'm in a weird place because it's not the main reason why I started reading comics, but it certainly helped. "Issue 30-something" is far less intimidating than "Issue 700-something." I've read some stuff from pre-N52 continuity and yeah, some of the changes they made were dumb moves. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of good that's come out of it and honestly, if it wasn't this reboot, it would be another. It's something that's going to keep happening. That's what headcannon is for hahaha.
Regardless, I did think this was a fair review even though I'm a bit sad that you don't care for Jason. To each his own!
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