No, I don't care if they're not calling it a reboot. You can call it what you want, but firing someone and laying them off still mean the same thing: that someone doesn't have a job anymore, and a reboot and a revitalizing just mean that history's getting swept under the rug in favor of something that nobody asked for.
Look, people are asking me about my thoughts on this and honestly it's too early to give any thoughts about this nonsense. I'm depressed about it, not only because ONLY LAST MONTH I wrote up a recommendations list for people and now half of it is completely worthless because those ongoing series I recommended will be ending. I hate that Birds of Prey is being relaunched (AGAIN) without Gail Simone. I'm upset that she's working on a character, Firestorm, who I have zero interest in. I'm upset that it's likely that Lois Lane and Clark Kent will probably no longer be together, since they keep hyping up that these are younger versions of these characters. I'm upset that Batgirl is very likely going to be Barbara Gordon again, undoing 20+ years of character development of her as Oracle. I'm upset that Dick Grayson probably won't be Batman anymore and that Batman, Inc. will probably be ending, too, since I loved the concept and the story itself was awesome to me. I'm upset because Jim Lee is designing new costumes for everybody and frankly Lee, while a great artist, is not exactly the guy I go to for new designs because they just frankly don't look all that good. I'm upset because they won't just give a damn straight answer about whether this is a full reboot from scratch, everybody new, etc., etc., or if this is a continuation of everything that has come before.
And I guess what I'm most ticked off about is that this whole thing is, yet again, being done to capture this elusive "new reader" that they always want to get, despite them pulling this crap at least twice before now and FAILING AT IT.
When I was 12 or 13 years old, I had read some Nightwing comics my brother had because he was a fan of Nightwing from the Batman animated series. In one issue, he had a flashback to when he was a member of a team called the Teen Titans. I had never heard of this team before, but it intrigued me and made me want to learn more. When I was at a comic book store, looking for material to read on a trip up to a camp up in the woods for a four-day retreat made by my school, I saw "JLA/Titans: The Technis Imperative." Since I wanted to know more about the Titans, I picked that up and that's how I started regularly reading comics. The book has tons and tons of heroes I had never heard of before and it was glorious because it made me want to learn more about them, to learn more about a history I had never thought existed.
THAT is the new reader you want to get, DC. You don't get new readers by pretending that nothing ever happened before. You get new readers by telling good stories and making them want to know more about the history. You EMBRACE your history, use it as the platform to tell good stories. You have it even easier these days with the internet and its bottomless pit of information about characters and storylines that anyone can look up and read more about.
I am banging my head against my desk that I have to keep reminding the industry about this: tell good stories and the readers will come. They will come through word of mouth, they will come because you have dedicated readers who invest their time and money into these characters. Does it work for every book? No, because opinions vary on it, but you know damn well that a good book is going to last a hell of a lot longer than a bad one.
So, people, you want my thoughts about the upcoming DC reboot? I'm upset about it. Maybe it'll all work out for the best - maybe I'm overreacting. It happens. But right now? I'm upset and I am going to continue to be upset about it because it feels like I've invested money and time in something for over ten years and it was for nothing.
And if you don't know what I'm talking about, just read HERE or google it.
Also, DC announced they would also release digital comics of those releases on the same day from now on. That's fantastic and I love it, howevere, there's a quote from the West Wing that I like to use at a time like this:
"Why is it for every good thing you do around here, we have to endure three screw-ups?"
Discuss, debate, argue, criticize me, support me, do what you like in the comments, but keep it civil.
Thursday, June 2, 2011
The DCU Reboot
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Ok... I'm just REALLY confused now. DC has called this a reboot, a retcon, a relaunch... and now they're saying that at least with Batman continuity, it's... not a relaunch? Instead the old stories still exist, but there are changes like Barbara Gordon becoming Batgirl again...? I really don't understand what's going on with this thing.
My god you said it! It pisses me off that probably every character I follow at DC will be a victim of this stunt.
It pisses me off that it's effectively destroying the segments of the company where real stories happen.
Conner and Cassie went all the way from awkward flirtation to epic romance. Wally West grew from a bratty legacy to a great hero in his own right. Dick Grayson came out of Bruce's shadow.
THIS IS WHERE THE REAL STORIES HAPPEN!
Meanwhile Batman and Superman have been treading water for over 70 years. Lois Clark marriage notwithstanding, which again will likely be another sacrifice. And Wonder Woman gets relaunched so often, she doesn't even get a chance to tread water.
And the worst part is all of these "new, relevant stories" will likely be retreads of stories that have been done a million times, and are still available. Stories with a "modern edge" that will make them seem more dated in three years than the racist back up stories in golden age comics.
The saddest and most laugh inducing part (as in sad Eff my life laugh) is that likely this will cause some readers to drop off....and that will be blamed on the writers and artists who'll get the ax (as WB is wont to do) instead of the people who meddled.
The same sh*t that happens in movies now happens in comics. Good creative ideas are pooped on by uncreative mooks who don't understand media or the culture or their audience.
Part I:
Dear Linkara
I am a huge fan of your work and although a huge comic book fan as a kid and born again around the Batman RIP days I have followed your work extensively to the point where I would cast you in several independent film roles I'm working on. This is the first time I'm commenting on anything though as most of the time what I would like to say has probably already been said, and chances are its been said already here, but I digress.
I am with you 100% on this reboot idea being a horrible decision. Yes I can see that you want to remove countless years of continuity for "new readers," but to be honest from a business standpoint, this is counter productive.
Take Batman for example. Years upon years of history and effort are involved with this character that you can pretty much classify the depth of characters like him to something on par with Lord of the Rings in terms of "epic". Understandably as the times change you can only retcon so much, to keep things from coming off as silly, but its those sillier moments that help define the characters growth. We've come from "shark repellant bat spray" to "microfibers that align with an electric current to create an aeroelastic wing".
I say that its counter-productive to reboot these things for the following example. I came back into the comic world after a friend handed me a copy of Batman RIP. Granted I had no idea what the hell was going on. I knew the basics, who a lot of the characters were etc, but there were a lot of things that, being a new reader again, I felt lost from the childhood days of reading 10-15 years ago now. DESPITE my lack of knowledge, this actually worked to DC's advantage. I immediately wanted to read what happened after since I was so engaged in the story AS WELL AS wanting to read previous issues and books to learn about all the things I missed.
Part II:
From a business standpoint DC not only gained me as a new reader devoted to checking out new comics as they were published, but ALSO a reader who went back and read their now "dated" materials that wouldn't be selling as hot as say Batman Inc. Thats pretty much doubling their initial effect as I read both ways.
I was fascinated to see how adult these characters had become as time passed seemingly growing up alongside me had I read them consistently as I got older. Dick Grayson taking up his mentors mantle out of fear, respect, and devotion was an incredible moment for me. Batman Incorporated, where Bruce essentially tosses some of his older dated ideals aside to create a wide-scale empire of crime fighting and much like his business turns Batman into not just a symbol, but a household name in the universe. The sheer power of that growth and that moment is something that can bring a tear to your eye when reading.
The reason DC wants to do a reboot is probably just simplicity and laziness. They may be crazy fanboys who just want to put Barbara Gordan back in tights like the Star Wars fanboys wanting to see Leia back in her slave outfit, but I think the real reason is:
"Damn it I just want to get paid to do something easy, and now I have to work and think creatively. I mean its SO HARD writing a story where Bruce Wayne is running a crime fighting empire, effectively shaping the course world into a new and interesting reality...can't I just go back to him punching the Joker in the face because the Joker is holding the world ransom for 1 million--I mean 100 BILLION dollars like I drew in my notebook in Jr High?"
Part III:
If you want to reboot fine, do it with things like All Star or the new Earth One series (I actually liked Earth One Superman), but that shouldn't be your goal. The Ultimates for Marvel seemed like a good idea at first, but it alienates a lot of your fans because they aren't sure how to feel when Deadpool is now a cyborg, the X-men/Spiderman are in highschool again and feel like saying "golly" too much. etc. Years upon years of continuity can be a good thing because those characters have depth and their actions are that much more important. Bruce taking up a gun in Final Crisis to take down Darkseid was a powerful moment because for decades we've seen his development and psych profile going against all of that. The fact that he was pushed so far to break his one rule to essentially save the entire universe while sacrificing himself to do so is an intense moment for a reader both knowledgable of Batman's ethics as well as a new reader who read on his history afterwards.
DC, if things are hard for you, then press on. You aren't making enough money anymore, then press on. Push yourselves to the absolute limits of your potential like the characters you have created have done. Find your epic moment and seize it rather than running away. Batman didn't run away, he saved the world. The Man of Steel himself dug through the rubble to find Batman's body after the crisis and carried it away from that place. You need to do the same.
Secret Six is cancelled. Gail posted the news to http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?208178-Okay-About-Secret-Six.
God flipping damn! Liefeld is drawing Hawk and Dove for the new DC in September. Why????
I'm getting f*cking sick of all this pathetic whining I've been hearing all over the community recently!
Things like these remind me why I hate nerds so much, despite being one my self.
This isn't any different from all those pathetic fanbrats who keep on spewing hate on Batman the Brave and the Bold simply because in is not Batman TAS
Those who bashed the 2003 Ninja Turtles because they weren't exactly like the 80s show
Like all those pathetic Transformers fantards that are dedicated to hate everything that came after G1
And the downright pathetic Sonic fans who can't get over the fact that Sonic SatAM ended 20 years ago!
So the current continuity is comming to an end.
Big deal, already happened back in the 80s.
You hated most of it anyway, so why complain?
For every small jewel, there was a flood of shit, and you know it!
The new universe won't be any different.
There will be good, and there will be bad.
Worried about character development?
I'll tell you something, IT DOES NOT MATTER!
Even without the reboot, most writers and producer would often simply take a dump on whatever their predecessor did, and twist the character to their own image.
CONTINUITY DOES NOT MATTER!
It's the stories that matter! In fact, too much continuity can ruin a story by making it incomprehensible!
(that's why the ending of Hush, which I enjoyed otherwise, seemed like such a huge ass-pull to me)
It's not like these stories ever built-up to something! They aren't meant to have a definite conclusion, so why care?
It's like complaining about continuity on the Simpsons! (and I know there are loonies who actually do that.)
Just read the individual arcs, and enjoy them for what they are on their own.
I for once will enjoy the new stories as much as I enjoyed the old, as long as they are well written.
Because no amount of history can save a shitty story.
Y'know, Linkara, if it helps, Amazons Attack, Cry for Justice, and Countdown are no longer in continuity.
About the issue of whether the older stories are 'worthless' (I didn't say it, but I'm gonna defend it)...
It isn't the stories themselves. It's the years I've spent reading and learning about a character, then suddenly there's a new character wearing the face of the one I care about and everything I learned doesn't count.
Yes, I can go back to the old stories; but only so often. If we're talking about a particular character, that number is finite. If not, it's really hard to collect 70s and 80s comics (my favourite period) when back issues are hard to find and they haven't been collected in trade.
And if I was satisfied with just rereading the same issues over and over, I wouldn't still collect new comics. Which I want - new things that I enjoy as much as what got me into comics.
I feel much the same way, Linkara... but hey, at least there's going to be a new Blue Beetle ongoing with Jaime (okay, that deserves some exclamation points, really !!!!!) and we're FINALLY getting Batwoman (one would imagine). So we're up to like 9 screw-ups by the West Wing Math.
I can only hope that the fact that the Batwoman ongoing is still going to happen must mean that Renee is still The Question, because undoing that would have hurt (I mean, you can have one without the other but then you couldn't have wacky lesbian relationship backstory).
The whole notion of resetting a series to #1 without actually canceling it and starting it back up is baffling to me. I don't think people are really afraid of high issue numbers--I think they're afraid of walking in on the middle of a story, something that "issue 3" says but "issue 342" does not. Honestly, a a much easier solution would be to number the issues of an arc to cue people to jumping-on points (something Vertigo did with at least one or two arcs of the Sandman, if not all of them).
For that matter, why the need for company-wide anything? I've got more than a few friends who aren't fans of American comics, but like the medium well enough to be into manga etc., and for most of them their number 1 reason is that it all seems so hopelessly convoluted. I mean, for a looong time everything DC made had a nice banner reminding you "This is really a tie-in to Blackest Night/Brightest Day". That's intimidating. I understand the desire to make it seem like your universe is a real world and actions in one place have consequences elsewhere but... it's a lot easier to pick up a comic and just read and enjoy it if you can go into it expecting to get the full story, or at least a sizable chunk thereof.
Think I'm losing coherence as I go here, so I'll just wrap up by saying: If DC honestly took a look at fan reaction to One More Day and said "Oooh, we've gotta get US some of that!" I do not even have words for how stupid that is.
The way I see it, people in the entertainment industry only have one obligation to us; to entertain us. Whether that's turning the 'splosions up to 11, delivering a deep and intellectual story, or anything in between and beyond that is up to the creators.
I don't really care about reboots, but if that's what the comic guys want to do, let them. Hell, it could turn out to be interesting. So long as the comics they put out are good, I feel they can do whatever.
This is generally why I try not to get attached to these kinds of things. I'll admit I roll my eyes when I see people say "it's disrespectful to the fans/writers/continuity!" because, really, I'm sure they took that into consideration when enacting this reboot. This whole thing reminds me of the recent "Devil May Cry" reboot and how all the fans are absolutely ripping on it from what we have barely seen of it. Ninja Theory, the developers behind the reboot, have no obligation to the fans other than to provide a good game. If that involves rebooting some aspects of the franchise, so be it. Now, if the game/comic/film/etc... sucks, then that's just an unfortunate byproduct of them making it.
I do understand why some people are upset with reboots like these. And to an extent, I do understand why some fans feel a bit betrayed or something by these kind sof things. But, really, so long as they give me something entertaining to read (though I was never much of a comic fan)
Unfortunately, as you have stated, many developers/creators/whatnot do not realize this. Instead of just concentrating on making a good comic or whatever, they always try to make things fit into continuity that only serves to complicate things even further. Just tell good stories/good games/good films/good anything and the rest will follow.
For some of us, continuity is a big part of what makes comic book stories entertaining / good.
You know, all this fuss you fans are making kinda reminds me of a certain disturbed youth
"I don't want THIS Earth! Bring back MY Earth! EVERYTHING was BETTER on MY Earth!"
Oh, this is the Wii all over again. Basically, Nintendo tried to carve out a niche among non-gamers, which led to neglecting the hobbyist gamers, kind of like what DC is doing here. Well, with the Wii at least, most of that niche crowd basically saw games as a toy instead of a hobby and soon got bored and moved on after an initial strong showing.
I just hope that doesn't turn out to be the case with the "nU readers" here. I'm not optimistic, though, since they'll have no investment in the characters and, as the old saw goes, easy come, easy go.
Well, I'm sorry for the nonsensical rant, but I had to say something or go crazier.
Hello, anonymous;
"You know, all this fuss you fans are making kinda reminds me of a certain disturbed youth
"I don't want THIS Earth! Bring back MY Earth! EVERYTHING was BETTER on MY Earth!""
Technically, he reminds you of us.
That scene was meant to be a vicious take-that parody of people who actually care about the characters DC created. People who, I don't know, remember why they're reading comics in the first place?
Biting the hand that feeds you sort of thing.
Nothing about this reboot tells me it's there to make GOOD comics, btw. It looks like it's there as cheap marketing ploy, nothing more - which doesn't mean there won't be good comics from DC afterwards, of course.
(sorry if this ends up as a double post... accident.)
"Technically, he reminds you of us.
That scene was meant to be a vicious take-that parody of people who actually care about the characters DC created. People who, I don't know, remember why they're reading comics in the first place?"
In that case it was a very well deserved jab
No sane human being should care about fiction THAT much
"Oh, this is the Wii all over again. Basically, Nintendo tried to carve out a niche among non-gamers, which led to neglecting the hobbyist gamers, kind of like what DC is doing here."
Note that this move made Nintendo outsell all of their competition during this generation, and ultimately made the competition follow in their foot-steps, so it was a very smart move.
This guy explains it the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9joAb4XMaUs
Wow! a lot of reboots! since 3,4 years? I kinda stopped counting.
Well long live the DCAU, I stopped caring about the big picture of the DCU since Johns Titans & picking from here & there any fun story or series. My DC universe died long ago when young justice disappeared & Hal was back ( YES parallax Hal made sense! & was the only time Jordan was exciting!)
same for marvel, long live fanfics ,fanarts, At4w & aluminium (it's useful...)
P.S:
can’t we give Dick Grayson his own Identity back or let him have a new one?
can’t Aquaman have the hook back?
can Guy Gardner punch Hal in the nads with all his vuldarian might ( yep I love Smith’s warrior, it was the definitive Guy for me)?
Will Bruce have some logic back in his mind & talk to Damian about the fact that the (horribly retconned) spawn of his loins KILLED someone?
When will we have the next new DC universe ladies & gents! I frankly give it 4 or 5 years max! You make the call!
Can't we have a Batgirl duo?( honestly i was against Steph becoming batgirl.why ? well when you already have a unique identity,as spoiler here, I find kinda lazy to saddle her with Cass's costume, a heroin who had NO reason to get the shaft, NO FRIGGIN REASON! but hey since steph has her upbeat personna , kudos to BQ miller...NOW a team-up between & Gabrych would be gold!)
Morrison is still on batman with his silver age & drug fetish (oh fuck it! give dematteis or dixon or dini a mini series with the joker & i'm sold srsly at least they know how to write the clown prince)
& on the subject of Flahpoint:who the fuck thought bringing reverse flash back was a good idea? even in mark waid 's run for a supposed dead guy he showed up too much. Johns invented Zoom for cryin out loud & he was a great villain & better than reverse flash in every way
sorry for the rant
wa eel alleekae (goodbye), linkara
"Note that this move made Nintendo outsell all of their competition during this generation ... so it was a very smart move."
Yeah, you're right. There's no excuse for me to be narrow-visioned, esp. since I DID know that. It's just hard to see the big picture from the trenches with either, especially when the two scenarios feel so painfully similar, if you know what I mean.
Still, no excuse for a knee-jerk reaction. Thanks for the correction.
You know, all this fuss you fans are making kinda reminds me of a certain disturbed youth
"I don't want THIS Earth! Bring back MY Earth! EVERYTHING was BETTER on MY Earth!"
I find this to be a rather unfair view. Or at least in regards to fans as a whole. Yes, I won't deny there aren't those who are screaming stuff like that on the forums, but it doesn't apply to a majority of us.
You see, most of us are not saying that "everything" is better as it is now with the current universe. We KNOW that the current continuity and books have their massive shares of problems and issues. Lian Harper's death. Cassandra Cain turning evil. The events of Identity Crisis. Countdown. Etc...
There are a lot of things that have happened in these stories that we as fans dislike A LOT. However, we still accept them as parts of the DCU's continuity despite our dislike. These stories happened, and we accept they happen. And what's more we still want to see what happens next. Because despite every bad thing that has happened in the DCU, we still take great enjoyment of the stories and these characters.
But having that all history both good and bad wiped away and re-formed in a manner that makes regresses these characters from who they are now, or alters them to the point where they might be nearly unrecognizable so abruptly, does not exactly fill everyone with confidence.
The thing is a lot of the fans just want to see where the current stories are going rather than watch the characters retread the same plots they've already walked. They want to see how Stephanie Brown progresses as Batgirl. They want to read more stories about Donna Troy and Dick Grayson leading the Justice League. But those stories (many of which are still relatively new and developing barely 2 years in age) are getting pushed aside for stories that have already been told. We've seen Barbara Gordon be Batgirl and we've seen the Bruce, Clark, Diana, Hal, Arthur, and Barry as members of the Justice League.
Think of it this way: a person has a son. That son has grown up into an adult, but not in the way the parent wanted and they also miss how the son USED to as a child. So they instead proceed to clone the son at a younger age and raise them in a slightly altered manner. Meanwhile, they toss the original into the basement and try to forget about them.
Instead of letting the original version continue to progress on it's own, they called it a lost cause and try again ALMOST from scratch.
As I've said before and like Linkara said: Maybe it will all turn out of the best. But you can't blame fans for having strong reactions to such an abrupt change that may or many not work.
First off, I kinda felt the same when I gave up on the Spider-Man franchise for a somewhat similar reason; I won't elaborate on it any further.
Second, I haven't been big on reading many comic books beyond a few select trades that catch my attention. As single issues go, I don't have a locally reliable source to check/purchase these comics and I'm not really that dedicated to every single event to bother with a subscription.
However, I do try my best to follow the story arcs as much as possible.
That being said, what I find interesting about these tales is its..."progression".
Batman didn't always have a slew of allies or very powerful (super)friends, Spider-Man wasn't always meek high school student Peter Parker, and the original members of the X-Men weren't always part of the group.
Ever since I first heard of these comic book icons, I enjoyed the characters and their respective stories. I enjoyed how they would change or react to the events around them much like how life changes around us all.
Sure, I enjoyed a good retelling now and again, but it was always nice to know that the core story, the "main universe", if you will, for all its strengths and weaknesses, regardless of whether it was the Silver Age, the Dork Age, or the modern day, the story always moved forward.
While I do welcome different retellings and/or interpretations of these tales, seemingly turning the "main universe" into a clean slate never sat well with me. And from what little I've read regarding Superman's reboot, I'm not liking it, either.
I can only hope this works out for the best. It was tough tossing one comic book icon to the wind. I'd hate to imagine doing that to an entire company.
(For the record, I've been slowly going back to Archie Comics. There's something going on with the Sonic series that has revived my interest in the comics...)
Ive always enjoyed the illusion of change rather than continuity reboots.Like Marvel back in the late 80s,with Cap Quitting,Armor Wars,Spideys black costume,Grey Hulk,Thors beard etc.It looked like something new and exiting,and brought back old fans wondering "whats going on?",but the previous 20+ years of continuity was preserved.
I'll pick up the first arc or 2 of Superman,cuz im a huge Morrison mark.But i'll be reading it like an elseworlds or All star book.
Aside from Batman,ive been done with DC since Final Crisis.A perfect place to quit since CoIE is where i started.
Plenty of good back issues to collect and enjoy..
@Alain M. Diaz
I would not use that metaphor
To me it's more like a project.
You are young and full of enthusiasm, and you start building something, something bid.
As you proceed you become more experienced and better at the job. But as you proceed, you start realizing the many mistakes you did along the way. The many beginner flaws that your younger, enthusiastic self either overlooked, or just didn't know better.
You try to fix them, but these tweaks disrupt the integrity of your work.
Each flaw you fix, inevitably creates another one. Your project still works, but it's flawed, and drives you insane.
And then you are given the chance to start anew.
You know what worked the last time, and you know which mistakes to avoid.
You are able to re-create your great work the way you always wanted it, superior to your flawed, misguided first attempt.
That's why Ultimate Marvel was so good.
They took everything great about the mainstream line, updated it, and avoided all of the unnecessary padding and mistakes they have made over the years.
Ultimate Marvel was the act of cloning the son and allowing the adult to still be around. Everyone wins. Newcomers get an abridged version AND longtime fans keep their current, more complicated continuity. If DC wanted to do this, it should have been a four step strategy. 1. Have a absolutely final ending for the entire universe 2. After that event is done shutter the superhero comics for five years, to allow a more fertile testing ground. 3. Aggressively push Vertigo for aforementioned five year period to get outsiders into the medium (and insiders more into the weirder/more mature fare comics can produce). 4. If, and only if, the push fails: Drastic heroverse re-launch publishing 50 titles. If the push succeeds: Much smaller re-launch (if at all) starting with only 5 superhero titles, building up from there if there's sufficient demand.
If no one has suggested it yet, I would consider calling this age in comics the "Event Age". I am not exactly sure when to declare the start of this age. I would go back at least as far as Avengers Disassembled. It probably started before that. I remember a lot of events in the mid to late 90's. The difference there (and I could be wrong here as it has been awhile since I read some of my comics)is that the events were smaller in scale. Often the events were local to one group of books, such as "Clone Saga" which was mostly a Spider-man title event.
Heroes Reborn might be one of the first modern events. It was not limited to a single group of books. It was a year long event. It was mentioned in the other books that were not directly dealing with the event.
It is important to note that not all of these events/relaunches/reboots have been bad. Yet, each time a major universe change occurs it needs to have time to be processed. Why should I care if Spider-man has new powers if suddenly he has a new suit? Why should I care about his new suit if it is quickly removed? Both situations have story potential. Under developing those situations to allow for the introduction of yet another rapid fire series of situations creates reader fatigue.
@Anonymous: Yeah... No, sorry I have to disagree with you about that. Particularly when you sight The Ultimate Marvel Universe as an example of things done right.
See, when they started the Ultimate Universe, the stories were interesting and new, yes. I enjoyed them in fact. I bought every issue of Ultimate Spider-Man hungrily. The retelling of their flagship characters like Spidey was intriguing and exciting. But the books were popular for two VERY important reasons.
1. Everything was starting from square one with NO direct connection to the original works aside from basic concepts regarding character and story.
2. The original Marvel universe remained in print and remained unaffected by this new universe.
As Vovagia said: "Ultimate Marvel was the act of cloning the son and allowing the adult to still be around."
Fans both old and new accepts the ultimate universe because they KNEW it was an alternate universe that didn't affect the stories they already enjoyed. New fans could enjoy these books without heavy continiuty, but old fans of the Main Marvel Universe didn't have to fear that the original books were going to be discontinued, or that their favorite characters were going to be removed. Everyone wins.
DC isn't doing that and that's what's got so many fans worried. They aren't starting completely from square one. They aren't treating this like a new project as your analysis is trying to claim. They're taking an old project and just trying to do some more extreme alterations to cover up those supposed "flaws" that you mention.
They're jumping in mid-stream and altering reshaping and restarting aspects of the pre-existing content while keep other aspects untouched and continuing.
That's why I use a clone analysis. Because essentially its the clone is the same as the original, but with some changes added in through the raising process and method of creation.
Furthermore, to say that the Ultimate Universe has avoided unnecessary padding and mistakes is another thing I must disagree with. If anything they are arguably the embodiment of comic book mistakes in a more condensed package. Sure, they started off strong, but then they started making complex inter-connective plots that confuse fans at times, they started blurring the connections between character origins and histories, they would murder characters and bring them back at random (i.e. Gwen Stacy), they started doing massive crossovers that fans were never all that drawn to, and they unceremoniously killed off a massive number of their characters abruptly and had disturbing moments added more for shock value than plot development.
The only difference between the Ultimate and Main universe is the Ultimate Universe did it quickly in the course of roughly 10 years, while the Main Universe did it slowly over several decades.
And those mistake you think they'll avoid with this DCnU? They're going to eventually repeat them. Why? Because its inevitable in a long-running creative medium like comic books. There's the old analogy of "too many cooks in the kitchen". DC has dozens of writers and artists and editors all of who have big ideas they'll want to try out. They will eventually implement those ideas. And some will work, and some won't. They'll execute different versions of the mistakes you say they're trying to avoid. They won't mean to make those mistakes. No one does. But it will happen eventually. Comics stories like almost everything in life is often the result of trial and error. Eventually this new DC will have the same continuity overload and confusion as the old one.
With any luck these will be good stories and enjoyable characters. You can't be surprised that fans are angry or that fans will drop the books. Change is a hard thing. Particularly when its so dramatic of a change.
I've ranted on two sites so far, so I'll change things up a bit by spreading a bit of hope. I'll od this by calling to mind a completely different universe: IDW's Transformers.
A few years ago, IDW put an end to the critically well-liked but slipping-in-sales "-ation" series and various "Spotlights", in a big event comic by the name of "All Hail Megatron." This big event comic in question barely raised sales at all despite its massive hype (mostly because it was abysmal, I wouldn't be surprised to see it on AT4W eventually). Then they made Transformers an ongoing, but the return to the same old storylines just bored most people (and the asshole characters and hideous artwork didn't help).
Suddenly, Wreckers.
Yep, of all the comics released since 2008 to feature giant robots, the most-loved of them all was Last Stand of the Wreckers, a five-issue miniseries that featured mostly characters who either hadn't appeared in twenty years, or hadn't appeared in any fiction prior. It was almost completely disconnected from both the ongoing, and the various other miniseries that tied into it.
It had life and heart. Then it ripped that heart out and crushed it while it was still beating. Its characters were multilayered and complex, its villain gloriously, disgustingly terrifying, its plot dark and twisted and filled with moments that made you laugh and d'aww and wince and cry.
In some of the darkest days of the franchise, one of the most acclaimed stories it had ever had rose from the most unlikely places. To be sure, it was no bestseller, but not a pants that read it was left unshattered.
So what am I saying?
Even in the worst days of a world,
there is always hope. You just need to know where to look.
Maybe we'll find it in something big. Maybe it's in something small. But Transformers fans found a diamond in the rough of about five series. If we can't find one in the rough of fifty-two, then, well, what the hell. There's always Dark Horse.
I'm pretty sure it's just origins that are being modernized, and the current continuity is going to be updated to match it. I don't think all of the previous continuity of every DC character will be erased, and I have heard that Batman Inc. and Batman and Robin will still continue after the 52 new number 1's.
Honestly, i'm pissed about the whole reboot. i remember not long ago i sent you an e-mail about how my love for comics was re-inspired and i went out and bought $200 wroth in comics. i loved the stories and i loved catching up to the continutiy that i had missed out on the last 4 or 5 years[which was mostly DC]. NOW, They are rebooting it all and i feel like my re-inspiration was useless. I was even working on a new Batman comic [one-shot of course] but because of the reboot i can pretty much scrap it now.
But the ONE THING i hate about the idea of a reboot, is the pure fact that we will have to sit through the first 30 some-odd issues of character stories that are the same stories we could pick up and learn about from f*cking 30 YEARS AGO! Ok, my rant is over. Maybe i am wrong and everything will be amazing and original... sorry i couldn't say that with a straight face...
When everyone's doing the cloned son metaphor here, I may as well bring it on the right track
For both Marvel and DC, the son grew-up to be an unemployed alcoholic, who lives off his parents (comic sales are on an all time low)
What DC is doing is kicking the failure of a son on the street, and uses the clone to fix all the mistakes they made during his upbringing
What Marvel did was raising the clone, while still loosing money on supporting the old leach of a son
Then after the clone has proven to be more competent and successful than the original failure, the jealous mother assaulted him for overshadowing her baby, and made him a cripple
@Justin Joyce
According to your logic, we shouldn't be watching any new DC or Marvel show (or any new iteration of a new franchise that is), because it does not follow the same continuity as some old series
Not to mention that you are a hypocrite, because the version you read was already a reboot anyways
@anonymous guy
1. how did i say that it makes the DC and Marvel shows unwatchable? The movies and shows follow similar stories to the comics, but when you really get down to it they are their own separate entity altogether and technically they are their own ENTIRELY different story and thus do not have to follow the comics.
2. How does taking the time to catch up on the continuity i missed make me a hypocrite? that's an honest to god question that f*cking confuses me. i don't see how taking the time to read the stories i have missed [which i didn't even know was a reboot since i have only just been able to catch up] make me a hypocrite because it makes the stories i just took the time to read obsolete.
I literally just got back into comics and now I find out about this crap. It ticks me off greatly. On the bright side it does allow me to start fresh on new series since I can't find many back issues. And a thought just occurred to me, chances are this relaunch might hurt sales enough that they just do another crisis even that just undoes the revamp. Oh well worse case scenario is i go back to buying the the trade paperbacks.
@Anonymous
Wow... I'm sorry, but I have to again disagree with you and give you a wide-eyed look of "what are you talking about?" Not to be rude, but this is not a proper argument, but an gross and rather unfair exaggeration.
There is NO WAY you can compare DC and Marvel's main current universes to "unemployed alcoholics" or claim that the Ultimate Marvel Universe is "more successful and competent".
You see, both the main DC and Marvel universe are still making money. A lot of it infact. A pretty decent amount when you consider the current econemy and the fact many of us can't afford as many comics as we'd like to buy.
They are not "leaching" off the parents, but instead still bringing in an income. Said income has lessened, yes, but it is by no means the failure you're exaggerations are claiming.
Meanwhile to claim that the Ultimate Universe is more competent and successful is also an exaggeration. Their earnings have also dropped considerably at times, and their stories have MANY times been equal or greater failures to that of the main universe For example, Ultimatum, Ultimates 3 and even the last few years of Ultimate X-Men had MASSIVE drops in sales, due to fans disliking the stories.
You can't claim that they're kicking a failure to the curb, because they're not. Failure means that they have nothing going for it anymore. Obviously, they still have a strong fanbase as demonstrated by the outrage of many fans.
No, a more accurate analogy would be to claim the original is successful but not AS successful as the parent hoped. Thus the parent believes that a clone will prove to be their "ideal vision" of success. However, the idea of cloning the original makes the friends of the original unhappy because they don't want a new version of their friend, because the liked and accepted the originals, flaws and everything.
"No sane human being should care about fiction THAT much"
It doesn't take an insane amount of care to complain when what you enjoy is taken away.
Also, for me caring about fiction has always been the POINT of reading it.
But don't worry; in what Danatblair is calling the 'event age' of comics - where you can't get a single title so much as a connecting point between events - in what I call the 'hard sci-fi age' - where comics are trying so hard to be serious, trying so hard to make everything ultra-realistic that they forget to make them enjoyable or add emotional connection - there's nothing for me to care about.
Well, I've been loving two titles, Batgirl and Superboy (odd, I've always been a Marvel guy), but this reboot has taken care of that.
I have never been much of a DC fan. Sure, I liked the DCAU, and I like the Chris Nolan Batman movies, but for actual comics, the only DC comics I've ever read more than 1 issue of (not counting Watchmen and other books like that, since it's not in the DC canon) was the O'neil run on the Question, and the Grey/Conner/Palmiatti run on Terra and Power Girl, and even that, I'll admit pales in comparison to some of the marvel stuff I've read. Personally, to me, it's more about the way DC does its characters; I'd read a comic book solely about Peter Parker, or Allison Blaire, or Carol Danvers, even if they didn't have super powers, or, if they had super powers, but weren't superheroes. I can't do that for DC, because the characters, and their superhero identities are too closely linked. It would be impossible for me to read a book about Bruce Wayne, or Clark Kent, or Barry Allen, just because they always seem to be Superheroes first, and people second.
I say this, not to pose a gripe about DC not making its characters more relatible, since I know not every one wants down to earth heroes, and a lot of people want these paragons of human or superhuman achievement. I say this, more to represent the guy who doesn't read DC comics, and I'll say that it has never been because of continuity. I am always afraid of continuity, yes. I even read Uncanny X-men all the way from the first issue, because I didn't want to miss an important point in the continuity. But if a series is good enough, I will get into it, despite its continuity, and it will drive me to buy more comics, to learn more about them. If they reboot, then there's no real appeal to buying the previous issues, and I'll still have just as little interest in picking up a new book, as I had before.
Well, the day of reconing has come. I just hope we've ust been overracting and it all works out for the best. (No bombs have fallen yet, that's a good sign)
Anyway, can't wait to see your reaction, kinda dreading mine though.
I am so glad you posted this Louis, because I completely agree.
It's okay to make new formats to take in new readers, I totally get it and I have nothing against them, but you do it in say, a different universe. But to completely annihilate literally YEARS of your universe's character development and back story and then discontinuing ALL of your comics to make room for a bunch of new ones, is an insult and a betrayal to not only the long-time fans, but the people who created those characters and helped to develop that universe.
For example they took the Killing Joke, one of the greatest Batman comics, and literally made it a joke when they made Barbara Gordan Batgirl again. I'm not saying that I condone people getting shot in the spine, but I just don't like it when a character who has had a traumatic experience and managing to overcome it thus becoming a stronger person, is completely rewritten! Oracle was a great character and showed us that Barbra had grown up and had made a new identity for herself and then DC on and spits on her.
Sure, there have been many crappy comics out there that I'm happy won't be canon anymore, believe me Cry for Justice was something that just shouldn't have been made, but I feel that we are losing more good than we are gaining.
I feel personally betrayed when a company creates characters that I've come to know and love, characters who have soooo much history, history that I as a fan have gone through with them and then suddenly somebody hits the reset button and tells me "You know all that money and time you spent on all those comics you've been collecting for years? Those stories and characters you've known sense you were a kid? Yeah, all of that never happened."
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to rant it's just that this reboot has really pissed me off. I would really be interested in hearing what you think about the comics Louis, now that they've been released. I pray that they're not completely horrible but I really pray that someday, DC might come to their senses and go back to the original format that once made them great.
I feel that the DC reboot is a horrible idea. DC is trying to bring in new readers, possibly younger readers, but most of their stuff is only aimed at a very specific crowd, so they're aiming at a demographic that doesn't really exist.
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